Baptism form of doctrine...

[blituri]

The Spirit of Christ defined baptism in Isaiah and Malachi: the gospel would be to the tiny remnant of Jews and then to all nations.

The Great Commission was to make disciples by baptizing and teaching what Christ taught to all nations: that means Gentiles.

Paul preached the same Gospel and DID BAPTIZE. To bad that he sinned by baptizing if he was not SENT to baptize. From the context even Simple Simon can see that Paul was not sent to baptize in Paul's Name.

Both Peter and Paul speak of the FORM or FIGURE: baptism is the IMITATION of a PATTERN set by Jesus "capable of being imitated."

No one who has not OBEYED that FORM of teaching has the remission of sins.  Baptism was the SIGNING way of identify those people who were honest and OF TRUTH or OF FAITH.  Of those who believeth not or the Greek Apistos who REJECTS Jesus when He just said that "he that believeth AND is baptized SHALL BE saved."  The believeth nots call Christ in prophecy, the commands of Jesus, the teaching and practice of Paul and almost the totality of church history LIARS.  That is why they are not SIGNED and can easily be identified.

1 Pet. 3:21 The like figure (Antitupon or Antitype counterpart) whereunto
         even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
         but the answer of [Appeal FOR not PLEDGE] a good conscience toward God,)
         by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I would be careful about calling Jesus and Peter and Paul etal big fat liars.
Baptism saves us says Peter. End of the argument.
How does baptism save us? Peter says that baptism is OUR way to REQUEST A good conscience which is the same as A holy spirit AFTER "our sins are washed away."

Paul was told to arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins "calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16. Here baptism WASHES AWAY SINS because it is CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. That is the ONLY way Jesus Christ has decided ALL ON HIS OWN as the WAY to request that He accept us as a disciple.

Paul said the same thing for those baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ and NOT into Paul.

    But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, [YOU exercised YOUR will]
    but ye have obeyed from the heart that form (tupos a model for imitation) of doctrine
    which was delivered you. Ro 6:17
             But now being
             made free from sin, and
             become servants to God, ye
             have your fruit unto holiness,  [fruit of A holy spirit]
             and the end everlasting life. Ro 6:22

Neither the Romans or ANYONE is said to have their sins remitted OTHER than by obeying and being baptized.  I doubt that you were saved by YOUR FAITH when THE FAITH which saves is THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST.  The only way you can profit from HIS faith is to IMITATE His baptism to "fully preach baptism."

The PATTERN capable of being imitated is an EXAMPLE for us to follow.

    2 Thess 3:9 Not because we have not power,
    but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

You cannot die, be buried and resurrected: YOU have the PATTERN of simply being dipped in water to IMITATE or OBEY. Why should ANYONE who tells Jesus "I WON'T GO" have their sins remitted?

WHAT IS THE FORM OR EXAMPLE TO BE IMITATED WITHOUT WHICH NO ONE IS FREE FROM SIN AND HAS ETERNAL LIFE?

Anti (g473) an-tee'; a prim. particle; opposite, i.e. INSTEAD or because of (rarely in addition to): - for, in the room of. Often used in composition to denote contrast, requital, SUBSTITUTION, correspondence, etc.

   1. We are baptized by GRACE instead of having to build an Ark or drown
   2. We are baptized by GRACE instead of having to cross the Red Sea or be destroyed
        by FAITH ONLY when God said "Quit whining, lift up your arm and MOVE into the jaws of death.
   3. We are baptized by GRACE instead of having to be pinned on a stake and shed OUR blood.

When you have to EXPLAIN AWAY what the text MAKES CLEAR you may have exhausted God's Grace.

Tupos (g5179) too'-pos; from 5180; a die (as struck), i.e. (by impl.) a stamp or scar; by anal. a shape, i.e. a statue, (fig.) style or resemblance; spec. a sampler ("type"), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning): - en- (ex-) ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print.

Why would ANYONE think that getting a gas pain or saying "I believe" be a FORM or PATTERN of what Jesus Christ did? Never, think that YOUR believing something substitutes for what Jesus Commanded you to do.  You don't have to but baptism is HIS way of moving evangelists throughout the population EXPOSING people to the PATTERN of the gospel to see whether THEY want to fit or not. Then, the evangelists moves on.

Maybe YOU can be SAVED without the REMISSION OF SINS (connected only to baptism) but I DON'T THINK you can go into the Most Holy Place wearing DIRTY CLOTHES.  Paul says we are saved BY FAITH when we are BAPTIZED to be CLOTHED with Christ. Then we have A holy spirit translated into heaven WHEN we are added to the CHURCH which is AFTER we have been baptized.

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, [CHURCH OF CHRIST}
      which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
      and to the Spirits of just men made perfect, Heb 12:23

Only those who believed were "just" and only those wo were baptized FOR the remission of sins, had THEIR spirit made perfect because God WASHED AWAY THE SIN.

They were added to THE CHURCH by Jesus Christ.
And THEIR spirits being perfected, by being baptized INTO Christ or clothed with Christ is the ONLY way you can get into The Body or The Church of Christ or the kingdom.

[Mere Nick]

Most "any" church will not take the Passover supper in any room...unless of course they are Jewish and then most likely not.

Then most any church is not doing right.

[Scoobydoo]

Nick, greetings in Christ from rainy Texas,

you stated..

Then most any church is not doing right

My observation--The passover meal ended at the cross for the Jews and it neve was for the rest of the world.

However, that is not necessarily true with the Lord's supper.

Scoobydoo

[blituri]

Besides they KILLED the Passover: it bled, was skinned, roasted and consumed.

The Passover observed by later Jews derived from Babylon where getting drunk on wine was imposed even on little children.

The feast of unleavened bread came to be merged with the passover.
The Lord's Supper (as a teaching parable) would have used the fruit of the vine and bread which is NOT the passover.

Paul defined the method and did not specify an upper room. :-)

[Livelysword]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Wow! 167 reads and no responses. Any idea as to why?

Scoobydoo

Because this has been discussed thoroughly on other threads.

And because, frankly, most of those whom Lively likes to bait have not rejected baptism. 

Pretty simple, really.

Lively:  I am not here to bait any...  but to simply teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ... and what it takes to have salvation and how we are to act and live a faithful Christian life... and it is my hope that I can be encouraged from others who also post here and speak the truth of the gospel as well...  I know this particular forum is the church of Christ... but I do not believe many who post here are actually church of Christ members, or not very faithful ones... but that many are from earlier splits of the church, such as disciples of Christ or the independent Christian church... and perhaps others as well...  but I also understand even amongst churches of Christ, there are many very liberal churches as well which have no problems playing instruments of music in worship to God...  in fact I would say the Liberal churches are just as plentiful now days as the conservative churches of Christ...

and what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Lively:  The gospel of Jesus Christ is the Power of God to saved you if you will believe it and obey it...  he that believeth the gospel and is baptized shall be saved...  If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...

[zoonance]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Wow! 167 reads and no responses. Any idea as to why?

Scoobydoo

Because this has been discussed thoroughly on other threads.

And because, frankly, most of those whom Lively likes to bait have not rejected baptism. 

Pretty simple, really.

Lively:  I am not here to bait any...  but to simply teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ... and what it takes to have salvation and how we are to act and live a faithful Christian life... and it is my hope that I can be encouraged from others who also post here and speak the truth of the gospel as well...  I know this particular forum is the church of Christ... but I do not believe many who post here are actually church of Christ members, or not very faithful ones... but that many are from earlier splits of the church, such as disciples of Christ or the independent Christian church... and perhaps others as well...  but I also understand even amongst churches of Christ, there are many very liberal churches as well which have no problems playing instruments of music in worship to God...  in fact I would say the Liberal churches are just as plentiful now days as the conservative churches of Christ...

and what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Lively:  The gospel of Jesus Christ is the Power of God to saved you if you will believe it and obey it...  he that believeth the gospel and is baptized shall be saved...  If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...

While all true, Paul does a fair job of actually defining what the gospel of Jesus Christ in his first letter we have that he wrote to the church in Corinth 15:1-4. 

[Scoobydoo]

Zoonance, greetings in Christ from colder Texas,

you stated..While all true, Paul does a fair job of actually defining what the gospel of Jesus Christ in his first letter we have that he wrote to the church in Corinth 15:1-4. 

My observation, this is somewhat misleading or can be the way to get at the heart of this is to thinkabout how Paul understood the gospel He was talking about. When one thinks about Paul's understanding and application of the gospel which can be seen clearly from the following texts--we can understand what Paul is saying In I Cor 15:1-4


Act 9:17  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.


Act 22:15  For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


It is easy now to see that Paul's teaching on Baptism was an immersion in water in order to have one's sins forgiven and to receive salvation.
Thanksfor the opportunity to review

Scoobydoo

[zoonance]

Zoonance, greetings in Christ from colder Texas,

you stated..While all true, Paul does a fair job of actually defining what the gospel of Jesus Christ in his first letter we have that he wrote to the church in Corinth 15:1-4. 

My observation, this is somewhat misleading or can be the way to get at the heart of this is to thinkabout how Paul understood the gospel He was talking about. When one thinks about Paul's understanding and application of the gospel which can be seen clearly from the following texts--we can understand what Paul is saying In I Cor 15:1-4


Act 9:17  And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.


Act 22:15  For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
Act 22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


It is easy now to see that Paul's teaching on Baptism was an immersion in water in order to have one's sins forgiven and to receive salvation.
Thanksfor the opportunity to review

Scoobydoo

Your welcome.  My point on romans was simply that the understanding that baptism is FOR the forgiveness of sins comes more from outside of Romans than from it. 

[Mere Nick]

Nick, greetings in Christ from rainy Texas,

you stated..

Then most any church is not doing right

My observation--The passover meal ended at the cross for the Jews and it neve was for the rest of the world.

However, that is not necessarily true with the Lord's supper.

Scoobydoo

Yeah, I know.

[Livelysword]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Wow! 167 reads and no responses. Any idea as to why?

Scoobydoo

Because this has been discussed thoroughly on other threads.

And because, frankly, most of those whom Lively likes to bait have not rejected baptism. 

Pretty simple, really.

Lively:  I am not here to bait any...  but to simply teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ... and what it takes to have salvation and how we are to act and live a faithful Christian life... and it is my hope that I can be encouraged from others who also post here and speak the truth of the gospel as well...  I know this particular forum is the church of Christ... but I do not believe many who post here are actually church of Christ members, or not very faithful ones... but that many are from earlier splits of the church, such as disciples of Christ or the independent Christian church... and perhaps others as well...  but I also understand even amongst churches of Christ, there are many very liberal churches as well which have no problems playing instruments of music in worship to God...  in fact I would say the Liberal churches are just as plentiful now days as the conservative churches of Christ...

and what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Lively:  The gospel of Jesus Christ is the Power of God to saved you if you will believe it and obey it...  he that believeth the gospel and is baptized shall be saved...  If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...

While all true, Paul does a fair job of actually defining what the gospel of Jesus Christ in his first letter we have that he wrote to the church in Corinth 15:1-4. 

Lively:  I have no problem whatsoever with what Paul wrote in those verses...  It is indeed the basis of our faith... or should be at the very least...

[zoonance]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Wow! 167 reads and no responses. Any idea as to why?

Scoobydoo

Because this has been discussed thoroughly on other threads.

And because, frankly, most of those whom Lively likes to bait have not rejected baptism. 

Pretty simple, really.

Lively:  I am not here to bait any...  but to simply teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ... and what it takes to have salvation and how we are to act and live a faithful Christian life... and it is my hope that I can be encouraged from others who also post here and speak the truth of the gospel as well...  I know this particular forum is the church of Christ... but I do not believe many who post here are actually church of Christ members, or not very faithful ones... but that many are from earlier splits of the church, such as disciples of Christ or the independent Christian church... and perhaps others as well...  but I also understand even amongst churches of Christ, there are many very liberal churches as well which have no problems playing instruments of music in worship to God...  in fact I would say the Liberal churches are just as plentiful now days as the conservative churches of Christ...

and what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Lively:  The gospel of Jesus Christ is the Power of God to saved you if you will believe it and obey it...  he that believeth the gospel and is baptized shall be saved...  If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...

While all true, Paul does a fair job of actually defining what the gospel of Jesus Christ in his first letter we have that he wrote to the church in Corinth 15:1-4. 

Lively:  I have no problem whatsoever with what Paul wrote in those verses...  It is indeed the basis of our faith... or should be at the very least...

I wouldn't expect you to have any problems with what Paul wrote.   But he did define what the gospel was and it would seem prudent for us to define the gospel like he did rather than add or take away from its essence at the very least. 

[Livelysword]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Wow! 167 reads and no responses. Any idea as to why?

Scoobydoo

Because this has been discussed thoroughly on other threads.

And because, frankly, most of those whom Lively likes to bait have not rejected baptism. 

Pretty simple, really.

Lively:  I am not here to bait any...  but to simply teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ... and what it takes to have salvation and how we are to act and live a faithful Christian life... and it is my hope that I can be encouraged from others who also post here and speak the truth of the gospel as well...  I know this particular forum is the church of Christ... but I do not believe many who post here are actually church of Christ members, or not very faithful ones... but that many are from earlier splits of the church, such as disciples of Christ or the independent Christian church... and perhaps others as well...  but I also understand even amongst churches of Christ, there are many very liberal churches as well which have no problems playing instruments of music in worship to God...  in fact I would say the Liberal churches are just as plentiful now days as the conservative churches of Christ...

and what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Lively:  The gospel of Jesus Christ is the Power of God to saved you if you will believe it and obey it...  he that believeth the gospel and is baptized shall be saved...  If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...

While all true, Paul does a fair job of actually defining what the gospel of Jesus Christ in his first letter we have that he wrote to the church in Corinth 15:1-4. 

Lively:  I have no problem whatsoever with what Paul wrote in those verses...  It is indeed the basis of our faith... or should be at the very least...

I wouldn't expect you to have any problems with what Paul wrote.   But he did define what the gospel was and it would seem prudent for us to define the gospel like he did rather than add or take away from its essence at the very least. 

Lively:  1Cor 15:1-4 is not all inclusive of what Paul taught that the gospel is...  again as I stated, it is the basis for our faith.

[zoonance]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Wow! 167 reads and no responses. Any idea as to why?

Scoobydoo

Because this has been discussed thoroughly on other threads.

And because, frankly, most of those whom Lively likes to bait have not rejected baptism. 

Pretty simple, really.

Lively:  I am not here to bait any...  but to simply teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ... and what it takes to have salvation and how we are to act and live a faithful Christian life... and it is my hope that I can be encouraged from others who also post here and speak the truth of the gospel as well...  I know this particular forum is the church of Christ... but I do not believe many who post here are actually church of Christ members, or not very faithful ones... but that many are from earlier splits of the church, such as disciples of Christ or the independent Christian church... and perhaps others as well...  but I also understand even amongst churches of Christ, there are many very liberal churches as well which have no problems playing instruments of music in worship to God...  in fact I would say the Liberal churches are just as plentiful now days as the conservative churches of Christ...

and what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Lively:  The gospel of Jesus Christ is the Power of God to saved you if you will believe it and obey it...  he that believeth the gospel and is baptized shall be saved...  If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...

While all true, Paul does a fair job of actually defining what the gospel of Jesus Christ in his first letter we have that he wrote to the church in Corinth 15:1-4. 

Lively:  I have no problem whatsoever with what Paul wrote in those verses...  It is indeed the basis of our faith... or should be at the very least...

I wouldn't expect you to have any problems with what Paul wrote.   But he did define what the gospel was and it would seem prudent for us to define the gospel like he did rather than add or take away from its essence at the very least. 

Lively:  1Cor 15:1-4 is not all inclusive of what Paul taught that the gospel is...  again as I stated, it is the basis for our faith.

He preached Christ and him crucified.  I'd say his words mean something.   Sure, there is more to christianity than the DBR.  But the gospel itself is rather clear.

[Livelysword]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Wow! 167 reads and no responses. Any idea as to why?

Scoobydoo

Because this has been discussed thoroughly on other threads.

And because, frankly, most of those whom Lively likes to bait have not rejected baptism. 

Pretty simple, really.

Lively:  I am not here to bait any...  but to simply teach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ... and what it takes to have salvation and how we are to act and live a faithful Christian life... and it is my hope that I can be encouraged from others who also post here and speak the truth of the gospel as well...  I know this particular forum is the church of Christ... but I do not believe many who post here are actually church of Christ members, or not very faithful ones... but that many are from earlier splits of the church, such as disciples of Christ or the independent Christian church... and perhaps others as well...  but I also understand even amongst churches of Christ, there are many very liberal churches as well which have no problems playing instruments of music in worship to God...  in fact I would say the Liberal churches are just as plentiful now days as the conservative churches of Christ...

and what is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Lively:  The gospel of Jesus Christ is the Power of God to saved you if you will believe it and obey it...  he that believeth the gospel and is baptized shall be saved...  If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...

While all true, Paul does a fair job of actually defining what the gospel of Jesus Christ in his first letter we have that he wrote to the church in Corinth 15:1-4. 

Lively:  I have no problem whatsoever with what Paul wrote in those verses...  It is indeed the basis of our faith... or should be at the very least...

I wouldn't expect you to have any problems with what Paul wrote.   But he did define what the gospel was and it would seem prudent for us to define the gospel like he did rather than add or take away from its essence at the very least. 

Lively:  1Cor 15:1-4 is not all inclusive of what Paul taught that the gospel is...  again as I stated, it is the basis for our faith.

He preached Christ and him crucified.  I'd say his words mean something.   Sure, there is more to christianity than the DBR.  But the gospel itself is rather clear.

Lively:  I have never said anything different...

[Johnb]

Greedings from cold and rainy Missouri (wish I was in Sunny FL and will be soon)

Quote Marc
Because this has been discussed thoroughly on other threads.

And because, frankly, most of those whom Lively likes to bait have not rejected baptism. 

Pretty simple, really.

Yep that sums it up.

Tandor Good points later brother.

Lively and Scoobey
Now if you would like to debate CENI that your views come from I will be happy to participate.