Baptism form of doctrine...

[Johnb]

Scoobey
1.  Those comments were not really intended for you but others on the board that deny what Campbell believed.  I know you only believe in your own conclusions and the fantasy church you have built in your mind.

Quote Scoobey
What we know now is that the church of Christ has existed in other nations since the beginning of the church.

One example--the church has existed in Ethopia since the beginning.  How do we know?

The churches of Christ went into that country and our goal was to help their people. It was not very long before someone noticed that the growth of the church of Christ was more than unusual.  So they investigated.  That is when they discovered that the church was already there and had been since the  beginning.

another example--There was a large group of Russians who were members of the churches of Christ--and many of them migrated to America. And did so long  before the Campbells.

There is a web site in England that traces the church way back--so that is what we now know that Campbell did not know.


Show from real history that a church that believed and praticed exactly like the CoC today.  What you are trying peddle is no different that the RCC publishing a list of "popes" back to Peter.  

A couple of problems with your theory.

1. For many centuries most of the world could not read.

2. There were no bibles in the common language and certainly not in English.  The bible was in the hands of the RCC.

3. It was a crime punishable by death to publish the bible in a common language.

 

[Livelysword]

Greetings in Christ to all who read this from sunny Texas.

I sometimes forget that it took me a long time to put all of this together and that there are a ton of things that over time make sense.
It is long reading and in several parts..But you will find it most interesting

Because many do not understand the difference between Christ's teaching the Old Testament law of Moses in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- before the cross (MMLJBC) -- that applied only to the "last generation" of Jews in Old Testament Israel, and Christ's revelation of his New Testament in Acts 2 through Revelation 22 that applies today to alien sinners and Christians in this new covenant age, they confuse his Old Testament "words" and teaching with his New Testament "words" and doctrine.

Many are so emotional attached to "anything" and "everything" that Jesus spoke in the scriptures that they attempt to attach his Old Testament teaching of the law of Moses in MMLJBC to his New Testament in Acts 2 through Revelation 22, and apply all of his "words" in both the Old and New Testaments to this New Testament age.

Of course, this is contrary to Christ's New Testament teaching as it violates the expressed "difference" between the Old and New Testaments as taught by the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the apostles in Acts 2 through Revelation 22. The truth is that one of the major doctrines of the New Testament is that to understand the New Testament, one must understand the covenant "difference" and "application" between the Old and New Testament "words" of Christ.

The New Testament teaches that in this new covenant age, Christ's teaching of the Old Testament law of Moses in MMLJBC will not and cannot justify anyone, Jew or Gentile, today.

"16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16).

In this same passage, the New Testament teaches that all men today can be "justified" before God only by "faith in and obedience to" the New Covenant "faith" and "doctrine" of Jesus revealed in Acts 2 through Revelation 22.

Furthermore, the New Testament teaches that any Christian today, who attempts to be "justified" by "believing" and "obeying" Christ's teaching of the Old Testament law of Moses in MMLJBC has "fallen" from New Testament grace.

"4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5:4).

This is a serious doctrinal matter! In fact, Christ teaches in the New Testament that anyone who attempts to resurrect his teaching of the Old Testament law of Moses from MMLJBC and use it as New Testament doctrine -- denies and contradicts the purpose and power of his death on the cross.

For Christ teaches that he died on the cross to "abolish" and "end" the Old Testament law of Moses and God's old covenant with Israel.

"12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished" (2 Cor. 3:12).

"4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Rom. 10:4).

At the cross and death of Christ, every 1st century Jew in the world became "dead" to the law of Moses and ultimately accountable to the New Testament of Jesus Christ "beginning" in Acts 2.

"4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ..." (Rom. 7:4).

(Special Note: Because the Old Testament law of Moses, the old Mosaical covenant that Jehovah God made with only the one nation of Israel, all of the teaching of the law by Moses and the prophets in Exodus 20 through Malachi, Matthew 27, Mark 15, Luke 23 and John 19 -- including the final two Old Testament prophets, John the baptist and Jesus Christ in MMLJBC -- applied only to Old Testament Jews within the old Mosaical covenant. The Scriptures teach that Christ's Old Testament teaching in MMLJBC have never applied to anyone except his "last generation" of Old Testament Jews in Israel. They have never applied to anyone in this New Testament age.)
 

Christ's Old Testament "Words" Of The Law Of Moses In MMLJBC

Again, during the same Old Testament age, all of the "words" and teaching of the law of Moses by Christ in MMLJBC as the last Old Testament "prophet" sent "only" to Israel (Deut. 18:15-18; Matt. 1:21; 2:6; 15:24; Lk. 13:33; Acts 3:22 applied only to old covenant Jews in Old Testament Israel.

"...And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people..." (Lk. 24:19).

It is clear, from the Scriptures, that Jesus teaching of the Old Testament law of Moses in MMLJBC was directed only to the old covenant Jews or "people" of Israel.

" 22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said" (Jn. 2:22).

"50Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way. 51And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth. 52Then inquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. 53So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house" (Jn. 4:50-53).

Even Christ's enemies in Israel "believed" his "words" that he was teaching the "truth" about the Old Testament law of Moses.

"19And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.20And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor. 21And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly: 22Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? 23But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? 24Show me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s. 25And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s. 26And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace" (Lk. 20:19-26).

In MMLJBC, when Jesus said to old covenant Jews, "24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock" (Mat. 7:22), he was speaking as the Messiah to only Old Testament Israelites (Matt. 5:16-18) and their need to hear, obey and build on his teaching of the "true" law of Moses in contrast to the "false" rabbinical "traditions" about the law during his day.

Again, in MMLJBC, when Jesus said, "38Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels" (Mk. 8:38), he was speaking as the Messiah to the "last generation" of Jews in Old Testament Israel. He was not speaking to future generations of New Testament "Christians" in the New Covenant "church."

Here are other examples of Jesus using the phrase "my words" in MMLJBC that referred only to his personal "words" teaching only the Old Testament law of Moses.

Notice how Jesus refers to "my words" within the law of Moses that speak of the "end" of old covenant Israel.

That old covenant prophecy of Christ would be "fulfilled" within the lifetime of that "last generation" of Jews in Israel. Jesus declared that "heaven and earth" would pass away before his prophetical "words" would not come true and be "fulfilled."

"33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matt. 24:33-35).

Jesus, as the Jewish Messiah, promised "eternal life" to all Jews in that "last generation" of Israel who "heard" his "words" and teaching under the law of Moses, who believed on Jesus as the Messiah and his mission as authorized by Jehovah God the Father.

"24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn. 5:24).

In MMLJBC, Jesus told the Old Testament Jews of Israel that if they would turn from the false rabbinical "traditions" of the day and continue in his teaching of the the "truth" of the Old Mosaical covenant, they would be the Messiah's disciples indeed.

"31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you" (Jn. 8:31-37).

One has to learn to really read what is being stated in these verses--

Scoobydoo

Lively:  I have shown time and time again that this is not true... that what Jesus taught which is recorded in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and even Acts chapter 1 are for the most part NT teachings.  Jesus came to teach a new and Living way...


John clearly makes distinction...

Joh 1:17  For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Let us listen further to John and what Jesus had to say, and Judge, is Jesus teaching NT doctrine, or OT doctrine...

Joh 6:27  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Joh 6:28  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 6:30  They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31  Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:32  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33  For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh 6:34  Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
Joh 6:35  And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36  But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Joh 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:41  The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42  And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Joh 6:43  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48  I am that bread of life.
Joh 6:49  Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Joh 6:50  This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Joh 6:51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52  The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55  For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56  He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57  As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58  This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59  These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.


Clearly Jesus teaches and makes distinction between Manna which was given under the OT by Moses, and the bread of Life which he is about to give unto the people...  The communion which Jesus teaches is not OT doctrine of the law of Moses, but of NT doctrine... and Jesus makes clear distinction between manna and those who ate it and died, and those who shall eat the bread of Life which he shall give that a man may eat and never die...  such teaching is NOT OT law of Moses... it can not be found anywhere in the law...  Jesus at the last supper also declares the bread and the fruit of the vine as NT doctrine... when he outright stated, this is my blood of the NT which is shed for many for the remission of sins.  How is such OT doctrine?  We could go through the gospels verse by verse and discuss them, but what is the sense, Jesus came to teach a new and Living way...  the OT law was given by Moses... the law and the prophets were until John the Baptist... since his coming, the kingdom of heaven is preached... not the law and the prophets.  Period...  unfortunately some can not get this lesson and must have and teach false ways... I suggest one goes to the bible and listen and see if Jesus is teaching OT doctrine and law of Moses or if he is set to teach a new and Living way...

Mat 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29  But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

I fail to see where Jesus stating he is to shed his blood for the OT law of Moses... and that they are to remember him by this as OT doctrine and law of Moses.  If any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant...

Luk 16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

It is obvious that there is a distinction made between the law and the prophets and what they taught and what was taught after John came...  John came preaching the kingdom of heaven...  Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight...

Luk 3:3  And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
Luk 3:4  As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luk 3:5  Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
Luk 3:6  And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.


Mar 1:1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:4  John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mar 1:5  And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mar 1:6  And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
Mar 1:7  And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8  I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mar 1:9  And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
Mar 1:10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mar 1:11  And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mar 1:12  And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
Mar 1:13  And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mar 1:14  Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

[Scoobydoo]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

As regarding the teaching of covenants--Here is another perspective you might wish to look at--

http://churchesofchrist.blogspot.com/2007/09/teachings-of-jesus-not-applicable-today.html

About half way down the page--

Enjoy the read---

[Scoobydoo]

Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

I am sorry you left the Lord's church..but it is possible to return..as long as you live it is possible to return.

My advice--Don't read anything other that what is stated here or elsewhere in a forum atmosphere.

You have now done that several times--with this subject.

What I stated is true...What you have tried to do is make it out to be something different...

My statements about the church of Christ is true--a search on the internet would provide much better evidence than I.

I would remind you of the "seed" and the Word being planted and when followed, it will always produce the same product.

God has not left it to us to decide what to do or not to do in worship and in our daily lives. I understand why you do not like CENI..but from what I read..you don't even understand what it is.
You seem to believe that it is a man thing but it comes from God and we follow it. But you knew that right?

Scoobydoo

[Johnb]

Scooby
I did not leave "the Lord's church"  I left the Church of Christ  denomination.   I still am part of the spiritual kingdom of God.  

No what you said about the CoC is false.  Putting myths on the internet about the CoC does not make it truth any more than an unbroken chain of popes you can find on the internet.  In fact the RCC has a much better historical claim than the CoC.  Their line of popes are at least real people in history and there actually has been a pope since around 600 AD.  

You still have the problems I pointed out earlier.

[Johnb]

PS  If you do a google search for church of christ in history or the history of the coc all you get is stuff related to the RM.  IE the real history of your denomination.

[Scoobydoo]

Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

you have to learn to sort out your searches--you call the churches of Christ a denomination. You have no choice--

[1] Folks who do not teach baptism according to the New Covenant--are not faithful Christians

[2] Folks who practise "acts of unrighteousness in God's name" are not faith ful Christians.

[3] Folks in the churches of Christ who also do these things are also unfaithful--even though they still wear the name.

I believe God when He tells us that His church would not be destoyed--.

I know of a "bank robber" who like bank robbers made his living by robbing banks. He retired and four years later--the law knocked on his door and he went to prison.

While there He was exposed to all the denominational world--He and one other made the decision to follow only the teachings of Christ as found in the bible. They established the church of Christ without ever knowing it. A few years later in a prison ministry--they discovered this truth.

There is no acceptable excuse today in our nation for not knowing and following the new Covenant pattern.

Yet men vainly persist in deceiving themselves--JOhnb, I cannot change that--Jesus Christ Himself could not change everyone...But I can tell them--They can then decide for themselves what they want.

Every single human being has value and worth to the Living God..But God is not going to do it for you--He wants followers not robots.

Again, I like the example of Cain and Abel--both men knew God--both men worshipped God--but one of them "changed that" believing God would accept it and when God did not--Cain lost it and eventually killed his brother over it.

Both started out evenly--but the choices one man--was not an act of righteousness and thus He lost.  He thought He knew what God wanted.

It is the same with baptism, with IM with CENI and many other things.

The test is to compare the teachings to the texts..not to engage in scriptural combat to be right but to study as a disciple--yet men fight fiercely to protect their teachings over all others.

God has already pronounced judgement on this world and it isn't good.

In learning to study the scriptures by covenants--The Jews were great at doing this very same thing--look what it cost them..

2Ti 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Now, the real history of the churches of Christ along with everything else can be found on the internet today--

Why is it so hard to believe that the Russians knew and obey the gospel long before the gospel reached American shores with the Campbells?

Anytime folks get together like the bank robber and just follow the texts--you have the church of Christ.  And when folks don't--you don't have the geuine article and that is costly.

Scoobydoo

[Johnb]

MYTH!!! and human logic are all you have Scoobey. At least the RCC and Orthodox churches have history to back up their claim to being the "one true church".  Bring forth real historical documents where the CoC existed for the first 1600 plus years after the death of Christ.  We have history of the Gnostic's and other splinter groups but no group that taught and praticed like the CoC.

Alexander Campbell in the Lunenburg letter said if he were to claim there were no Christians but those of their group (the Christian church/CoC) then he would be pure sectarian and that the promise of Jesus had failed and the gates of hell had prevailed against the kingdom of God.  He understood that no other group praticed and taught as they did.  

[Scoobydoo]

Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

You keep making assumnptions--like the churches of Christ today are the standard unit of measurement--we are some 2,000 years after the fact.

And having said that--What I stated is still true. You may internalize and interpret that any way that helps you get by..but we both know that God's church has existed upon this earth from Pentecost forward.

The standard of measurement for all of us today are those scriptures. You and others use the term human reasoning rather freely so much so it seems more of a cop out than an answer or even a good observation.

you stated..

Alexander Campbell in the Lunenburg letter said if he were to claim there were no Christians but those of their group (the Christian church/CoC) then he would be pure sectarian and that the promise of Jesus had failed and the gates of hell had prevailed against the kingdom of God.  He understood that no other group praticed and taught as they did.

My response--I for one am not building my relaltionship with the risen Lord by faith that is dependent upon the Campbells. He did not know everything.

Even with our advances today we still don't know everything--but then God has only required obedience.

The gospel plan of salvation started in acts 2 for the whole world for Jews and Gentiles and it has not changed through the ages.
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Now when folks in any Generation ascribe human reasoning to those who teach this text esp when they teach differently..are missing the mark.

That is the deliemna we find ourselves in here today.  You have left such teaching{for what ever reasons} so accepting a different teaching means what with these texts?  They in some way must be discredited.  You are forced to now use the "human reasoning" of your new group in order to justify where you remain.

So where are we--dealing with a human problem that is as old as the New Covenant itself is..basically  a Cain and Abel issue.

Acts 2:38 is not a church of Christ human reasoning doctrine--It is scripture and it forces men to make decisions. Perhaps, one day you will  also reconsider. I wish you well in that journey for we have a powerful and dedicated enemy seeking the destruction of our souls in an eternity without God.

Scoobydoo

PS. It is true that one can follow the pattern of the New Covenant today and never wear the name church of Christ--but they teach and follow these commands found in scripture on salvation, and Christian living and Christian responsibilty.

The Russians that came to America in its founding days--did not wear the name cofC--In Russian it is different..but they taught those things found in scripture that identifies them as the church of Christ.

Scoobydoo

[DCR]

The Russians that came to America in its founding days--did not wear the name cofC--In Russian it is different..but they taught those things found in scripture that identifies them as the church of Christ.

Are you referring to the Russian Orthodox or the group that split off from the Russian Orthodox in the 17th Century?

What are your sources of information concerning this group?

[soterion]

Lively, greetings in Christ from rainy Texas,

I live where Texax Tech reigns and the International Sunset school calls home.

Scoobydoo

That last Tech game against A@M was too bad.  Tech really dropped the ball. 

[Scoobydoo]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

you asked

Are you referring to the Russian Orthodox or the group that split off from the Russian Orthodox in the 17th Century?

No, I do not believe so

you asked

What are your sources of information concerning this group?
[/quote]

My response-- Right now, this second, my memory--since I retired from active preaching I gave my library to a retiring air force person to take with him as he started peaching full time.

I believe the site in England would have that information. The one in Canada is more refuting doctrine than history.

Scoobydoo

[DCR]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

you asked

Are you referring to the Russian Orthodox or the group that split off from the Russian Orthodox in the 17th Century?

No, I do not believe so

you asked

What are your sources of information concerning this group?

My response-- Right now, this second, my memory--since I retired from active preaching I gave my library to a retiring air force person to take with him as he started peaching full time.

I believe the site in England would have that information. The one in Canada is more refuting doctrine than history.

Scoobydoo

Are you referring to the "Traces of the Kingdom" site?

I have reviewed this site before and found some of the claims to be rather dubious at best.  There have frequently been various groups here and there that withdrew from the mainstream church of their day... especially since the Reformation of the 16th Century.  Churches were all over the map during those times.  Some of the issues some of these groups had beliefs on might match up with modern-day Churches of Christ on certain matters.  But, if you review the complete package of what they were on all their beliefs and practices, I wonder how closely any of these groups across time would really resemble modern-day Churches of Christ.  You might like what a group in history had to say on issue X.  But, you might not be as comfortable on what they said about issue Y, and so forth.

Anyway, it may be a bit presumptuous to claim all these groups as our own, simply because they seceded from the major denominations of their day and we happen to agree with them on certain matters.

[Scoobydoo]

DCR, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Nice Site but while the Site's name owner is more than familiar---we don't get along very well.
And, not just about covenants either.

I will have to find my dvd with the 14-15 gigs of notes and etc and see if I can locate it

Scoobydoo

Let me add something here---In study the idea is never to take current and push backward--what we need to do is start from the beginning and compare with what we do today.

The problem is that we ask the wrong question in bible study to begin with--and have to live with inaccurate answers as a result.

[DCR]

DCR, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Nice Site but while the Site's name owner is more than familiar---we don't get along very well.
And, not just about covenants either.

Interesting.  You get around.

I have to say that I haven't seen anything to convince me of an underground "church of Christ in hiding" for hundreds of years before the Restoration Movement of the 19th Century... at least I'm doubtful of the existence of a group that you would feel fully comfortable with being in fellowship with such a group.  Some Reformation-era groups might share some common ideas with us.  But, there would undoubtedly be some differences as well.  But, historical details are usually too sketchy to do much more that speculate.

At any rate, is there a "church of Christ" congregation in existence today who you would feel comfortable with that has historical roots completely outside of and uninfluenced by the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement of the 19th Century?  That... I would be curious to know about.