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Offline hogwildark

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2009, 11:47:19 AM »
I meant on earth....evil powers would then dominate the earth

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2009, 11:47:19 AM »

Offline fanuvmxpx

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2009, 11:57:20 AM »
I meant on earth....evil powers would then dominate the earth

God wins here too :)

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2009, 11:57:20 AM »

Offline Johnb

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2009, 01:05:07 PM »
I meant on earth....evil powers would then dominate the earth

Like hog I am a vet.  30 years worth.  When the enemy is coming down the lane to your house you pray and I will pray for the mmilitary to show up and defeat the enemy.  After all the times that God sent his people into war why would we now believe there is nothing worth fighting for?

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2009, 03:26:59 PM »
It is little known by most members of the Stone-Campbell Movement (Churches of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Christian Churches, and their myriad modern offshoots) that in the decades before the Civil War, nearly every leader in the Stone-Campbell Reformation was interested in the Millennium. Most of them were postmillennialists, believing that the second coming of Christ will be delayed until after the completion of the millennium. The millennium is a period when the world will be governed by Christian principles rathen than an era in which Christ will literally reign on earth for a thousand years; it will be gradually introduced by the triumph of the church over the wickedness of the world rather than a literal reapperance of the Lord. In such a worldview, progress and optimism are inherent.

All the early leaders who published religious newspapers addressed the millennium in their publications.

Prior to 1830 both Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844) and Alexander Campbell (1788-1866) linked their religious efforts at reform with the eventual spiritual and social regeneration of the world.

Alexander Campbell actually named his second periodical the Millennial Harbinger. From the "Prospectus" of the Millennial Harbinger Vol. I:

THIS work shall be devoted to the destruction of Sectarianism, Infidelity, and Antichristian doctrine and practice. It shall have for its object the developement, and introduction of that political and religious order of society called
THE MILLENNIUM, which will be the consummation of that ultimate amelioration of society proposed in the Christian Scriptures.

By the 1830s a number of Stone-Campbell leaders had become premillennialists-including Barton Warren Stone and Walter Scott (1796-1861). But I should say here that the Stone-Campbell premillennialism was classical premillennialism, not the modern dispensational premillennialism (of Hal Lindsay, John Hagee and Tim LaHaye) first espoused by English Pastor John Darby (1800-1882) in the 1830s.They were at first very impressed with Baptist pastor and founder of Seventh Daty Adventism William Miller's (1782-1849) apocalytpic prophecies however when Miller's prophecies failed twice most of them reverted back to their earlier postmillennialism. But millennial speculation continued in Churches of the Stone-Campbell Movement up through the 1860s, in papers such as Moses Lard's (1818-1880) Lard's Quarterly. In the late 19th/early 20th centuries, David Lipscomb (1831-1917), James A. Harding (1848-1922) and their student Robert H. Boll (1875-1956), expressed this counter-cultural, apocalyptic worldview better than anyone else, at a time when the movement as a whole, esp. in Churches of Christ in the South, was increasingly headed towards legalism, dogmatism and a strict rationalism which downplayed the miraculous. RH Boll and his churches remained premillennial until the 1950s, despite efforts by Foy Wallace (1896-1979) RL Whiteside (1869-1951) and others, to stamp out their premillennialism as "false doctrine."

Campbell was very occupied with the millennium. So much so that, not only did he name his second paper to draw attention to its near advent, but he wrote many articles, including a series entitled "Millennium."

Campbell's eschatology affected his social and political views, causing him to be a pacifist-though he did support capital punishment-and though originally ambivalent towards Christian involvement in politics, his views on that subject had softened by the late 1840s. Campbell also was vocally opposed to slavery (albeit on ethical and social grounds rather than scriptural grounds as he argued that scripture doesn't condemn slavery) and stood vocally opposed to the US' 1830 Indian Removal Act which relocated the Five Civilized Tribes to Indian Territory (now Oklahoma) in the 1830s. Nevertheless, Campbell also linked the progress of the millennium with what he viewed as the progressive future of the American nation. He believed the fate of the world rested on America. He wrote:

To Protestant America and Protestant England the world must look for its emancipation from the most heartless spiritual despotism that ever . . . degraded mankind. This is our special mission in the world as a nation and as a people; and for this purpose the Ruler of nations has raised us up and made us the wonder and the admiration of the world. - "Address on the Destiny of Cour Country," from Popular Lectures and Addresses, 1863, p. 174.

Campbell's emphasis on the millennium weakened by the 1840s, as he saw that his dreams of a united Christendom which would hasten the evangelization of the world and the advent of the millennium didn't occur. But he remained deicated to pacifism and social justice.

Tolbert Fanning (1810-1874) another leader among Southern churches of the Stone-Campbell Reformation, founder of Franklin Academy and teacher of David Lipscomb, and co-founder with Lipscomb's brother of the Gospel Advocate, was actually arrested and convicted of treason for his pacifism.

David Lipscomb actually published a book called Civil Government, in which he urged Christian non-involvement in war and politics, believing all man-made governments were usurpations of God's government, hence Christians owed allegiance only to God's kingdom. They were to live peacably within a country and obey its laws where those did not violated God's Word, but should not get tangled up in poltics or that nations wars; Jesus said to turn the other cheek, so Christians had no business taking lives. Lipscomb's associate and co-founder of their Nashville Bible School (NBS) James A. Harding shared these views. These two leaders via their school trained a whole generation of ministers in churches of Christ in the South. Lipscomb's views were mainstream in his day but by the 1940s considered heretical by leaders like Foy E. Wallace, Jr. in the 1930s and 40s, and anyone owning a copy of Civil Government was encouraged to burn it.

WWII was the turning point for many in the CoC. Leaders like RL Whiteside and Foy Wallace, Jr. considered pacifists to be not only unscriptual, but traitors to America.


For more information see:

Doug Foster, Paul M. Blowers, Anthony L. Dunnavant, et. al., The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement

David Edwin Harrell's A Social History of the Disciples of Christ: Quest for a Christian America, 1800-1865 Vol 1

A Social History of the Disciples of Christ Vol 2; Sources of Division in the Disciples of Christ, 1865-1900

John Mark Hicks' and Bobby Valentine's Kingdom Come: Embracing the Spiritual Legacy of David Lipscomb and James Harding

Richard Hughes' Reviving the Ancient Faith: The Story of Churches of Christ in America

Craig Watts' Disciple of Peace: Alexander Campbell on Pacifism, Violence and the State


Pax.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 08:28:17 AM by Lee Freeman »

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2009, 03:26:59 PM »

Offline Snargles

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2009, 05:36:19 PM »
Up until WWII we still thought of ourselves as different from the denominations (many, especially the older folks, still do). We weren't as prosperous as our neighbors and we worshipped in run-down buildings. Since the war we have moved uptown. We have more money, we have better buildings (but still the plainest on the block) and we want to be recognized as a legitimate denomination, even though we say we aren't one. Dropping our old sectarian, pacifist stance was necessary if we want to look more like our Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodist neighbors.

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2009, 05:36:19 PM »



Offline savedbyhim

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2009, 10:55:40 AM »

If I remember correctly, way before the RM or the present day CofC one of the reasons that the Roman Empire hated Christians in general was that they were very much against fighting for the Roman army....or were pacifistic towards war...period. Though not the only reason for being disliked by the government of that day, it was one very strong reason, and I think it should stand to show us that the Christianity of the first few centuries A.D. was in following with the fruit of the Holy Spirit....Love, Joy, PEACE, etc. It sure wasn't about fighting wars. I'm also an Army veteran and would serve all over again just to support my country, but war is the last thing that I want....and I believe that most Christians would prefer God made peace over man made war.

Just thinking...

Offline Snargles

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2009, 12:50:47 PM »
I have been slogging through one of the Teaching Company's lecture series on CD and the speaker said the Roman Empire didn't draft Jews into the army because they wanted every 7th day off. The Romans couldn't tell the Jews from the Christians (sometimes now it is hard to tell the CoC from Pharisees) so they avoided the draft, too.
This might be a new way to get CO status: "I don't mind serving but I have to get every Sunday AM, Sunday PM, Wednesday PM and one Thursday a month off."

Offline Jimbob

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2009, 01:08:36 PM »
Up until WWII we still thought of ourselves as different from the denominations (many, especially the older folks, still do). We weren't as prosperous as our neighbors and we worshipped in run-down buildings. Since the war we have moved uptown. We have more money, we have better buildings (but still the plainest on the block) and we want to be recognized as a legitimate denomination, even though we say we aren't one. Dropping our old sectarian, pacifist stance was necessary if we want to look more like our Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodist neighbors.
People didn't enlist in WW2 and sacrifice their lives on the battlefield took like Presbys and Baptists. 

Offline Snargles

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2009, 02:33:51 PM »
Up until WWII we still thought of ourselves as different from the denominations (many, especially the older folks, still do). We weren't as prosperous as our neighbors and we worshipped in run-down buildings. Since the war we have moved uptown. We have more money, we have better buildings (but still the plainest on the block) and we want to be recognized as a legitimate denomination, even though we say we aren't one. Dropping our old sectarian, pacifist stance was necessary if we want to look more like our Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodist neighbors.
People didn't enlist in WW2 and sacrifice their lives on the battlefield took like Presbys and Baptists. 

I didn't mean it that way. During WWII it would have been very unpopular to maintain a pacifist stance and most CoC members had lost their feeling of being different from the rest of the world. The actions of the Germans and Japanese were enough to convert all but the most hard-core pacifists.
The desire to look more like our religious neighbors had an effect on us following the Civil War and following WWII. After the CW the split between the progressive (DoC) and conservative (CoC) parts of the RM became more apparent as the progressives became more like the mainline. After WWII the difference between the CoC and the mainline became less apparent as we took on some of their ways.

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2009, 03:00:48 PM »

If I remember correctly, way before the RM or the present day CofC one of the reasons that the Roman Empire hated Christians in general was that they were very much against fighting for the Roman army....or were pacifistic towards war...period. Though not the only reason for being disliked by the government of that day, it was one very strong reason, and I think it should stand to show us that the Christianity of the first few centuries A.D. was in following with the fruit of the Holy Spirit....Love, Joy, PEACE, etc. It sure wasn't about fighting wars. I'm also an Army veteran and would serve all over again just to support my country, but war is the last thing that I want....and I believe that most Christians would prefer God made peace over man made war.

Just thinking...

Actually the Roman Empire was very tolerant of different religions so long as they behaved and didn't threaten the security and stability of the  Pax Romana. What got the Christians in trouble was their insistence that Jesus is Lord/King and Caesar isn't. Hence they refused to burn the customary pinch of  incense to the Caesars in their divine aspect. This was considered a patriotic duty tied to the welfare of the state. No other religions save Judaism and Christianity had a problem with it, because paganism was pluralistic. Because of their military service in the Roman Army Jews were exempt from making the customary sacrifices to Caesar.

There were Jews who served as foot-soldiers in the armies of generals like Tiberius Julius Alexander and even Jewish military units such as the Regii Emescni Iudaei. 

Its possible that Christianity came to Roman Britain through Roman soldiers who were Christians being stationed there in the 200s AD.

Pax.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 05:56:01 PM by Lee Freeman »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2009, 09:15:46 AM »
Up until WWII we still thought of ourselves as different from the denominations (many, especially the older folks, still do). We weren't as prosperous as our neighbors and we worshipped in run-down buildings. Since the war we have moved uptown. We have more money, we have better buildings (but still the plainest on the block) and we want to be recognized as a legitimate denomination, even though we say we aren't one. Dropping our old sectarian, pacifist stance was necessary if we want to look more like our Presbyterian, Baptist and Methodist neighbors.
People didn't enlist in WW2 and sacrifice their lives on the battlefield took like Presbys and Baptists. 

I didn't mean it that way. During WWII it would have been very unpopular to maintain a pacifist stance and most CoC members had lost their feeling of being different from the rest of the world. The actions of the Germans and Japanese were enough to convert all but the most hard-core pacifists.
The desire to look more like our religious neighbors had an effect on us following the Civil War and following WWII. After the CW the split between the progressive (DoC) and conservative (CoC) parts of the RM became more apparent as the progressives became more like the mainline. After WWII the difference between the CoC and the mainline became less apparent as we took on some of their ways.
Sorry if I misunderstood, that's just the way it sounded at first.  ::tippinghat::

Offline Jimbob

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2009, 09:21:54 AM »
Here's a quote from the The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement I found disturbing on two points.

Quote
p. 587

While conservative Disciples (later the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) are the least pacifist of the three streams, Archie Word and the Ottumwa Brethren developed a strident pacifism in the 19305 similar to the sectarian pacifism of the Churches of Christ seen in Tant's statement above.
The sectarian and individualistic pacifism most characteristic of Churches of Christ suffered decline in the twentieth century. With the passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts in World War I, the government was able effectively to suppress dissent to the war. The Gospel Advocate was under threat of losing its mailing privileges if it continued to promote pacifist views and so changed its editorial policy to support the war. In Oklahoma Cordell Christian College closed under government surveillance and community pressure. O. E. Enfield, a leading Oklahoma preacher and socialist, was imprisoned at Leaven-worth for his anti-war sentiments. Many church members shed pacifism as an embarrassment. After World War I, those in mainstream Churches of moved toward a pro-war stance, while many various   subgroups   (premillennial,   non-School, One-Cup, and African American Churches of Christ) and maintained a pacifist position.  The One-Cup Churches of Christ are still on record as a "peace church."  During the 1930s, as the peace movement gained prestige, many in the mainstream Churches of Christ became attracted to pacifism again as as many churches went on record as being opposed to Christians fighting in war.

1. Govt. suppression of dissenting views in the press, religious or otherwise, is a violation of the 1st Amendment blatant enough a blind bat could see it.

2. The Gospel Advocate apparently had the backbone of a two-week rotted banana on the issue and caved for the sake of less expensive postage!

Offline Snargles

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2009, 11:30:18 AM »


2. The Gospel Advocate apparently had the backbone of a two-week rotted banana on the issue and caved for the sake of less expensive postage!

If the Advocate had been around when the Sanhedrin told Peter and John to quit preaching or else it would have gone over to an all crossword puzzle format (which might be an improvement to what they print now).

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2009, 06:01:28 PM »
Here's a quote from the The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement I found disturbing on two points.

Quote
p. 587

While conservative Disciples (later the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ) are the least pacifist of the three streams, Archie Word and the Ottumwa Brethren developed a strident pacifism in the 19305 similar to the sectarian pacifism of the Churches of Christ seen in Tant's statement above.
The sectarian and individualistic pacifism most characteristic of Churches of Christ suffered decline in the twentieth century. With the passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts in World War I, the government was able effectively to suppress dissent to the war. The Gospel Advocate was under threat of losing its mailing privileges if it continued to promote pacifist views and so changed its editorial policy to support the war. In Oklahoma Cordell Christian College closed under government surveillance and community pressure. O. E. Enfield, a leading Oklahoma preacher and socialist, was imprisoned at Leaven-worth for his anti-war sentiments. Many church members shed pacifism as an embarrassment. After World War I, those in mainstream Churches of moved toward a pro-war stance, while many various   subgroups   (premillennial,   non-School, One-Cup, and African American Churches of Christ) and maintained a pacifist position.  The One-Cup Churches of Christ are still on record as a "peace church."  During the 1930s, as the peace movement gained prestige, many in the mainstream Churches of Christ became attracted to pacifism again as as many churches went on record as being opposed to Christians fighting in war.

1. Govt. suppression of dissenting views in the press, religious or otherwise, is a violation of the 1st Amendment blatant enough a blind bat could see it.

2. The Gospel Advocate apparently had the backbone of a two-week rotted banana on the issue and caved for the sake of less expensive postage!

Had Lipscomb and/or Sewell still been alive and been editor(s), there's no way this would've happened.

pax.

Offline DCR

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Re: CoC tradition as a "peace church"
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2009, 11:34:58 AM »
My grandfather and most of my great uncles were veterans of WWII.  And, they were all CofC.  So, the pacifist sentiment was apparently discarded by the time of WWII.

Kind of interesting that the CofC is still considered eligible as a pacifist church/organization on the books today.  That shows that we're not a static group and don't have a whole lot in common with our forebears from 100 years ago.