CofC Views of Divine Agency After the Age of Apostles

[DCR]

Here's a quote:

Now a few people seem to be under the impression that all divine interventions have ceased since the death of the Apostles, and that since then there have been no super mundane or super-human influences known on earth.  They think God gave the word and stopped--a very low and very erroneous conception of the reign of Christ.



Before going any further, who said it?

[Quinn]

James A. Harding

[DCR]

James A. Harding

Correct!  James A. Harding (1848-1922) for whom Harding University is named and also the first president of Nashville Bible School (which is now Lipscomb University).

I've been reading a book which cites this quote.  More later.

[blituri]

Now a few people seem to be under the impression that all divine interventions have ceased since the death of the Apostles, and that since then there have been no super mundane or super-human influences known on earth.  They think God gave the word and stopped--a very low and very erroneous conception of the reign of Christ.

Now, I am a borned member of the church of Christ: going on 79 and I never heard that! No one writes a book without a preconceived plan.

Because Christ is the King He does not have to 'intervene.'  Historically, Christ rules through His apostles as He used the prophets. He rules through providence or else He has no will.  He rules through His Word which HE said is SPIRIT and LIFE and that were have been provided with all that we need for life and godlness.  I would like some quotes from them that a "Spirit" person gave either of them a vision or they hear audible words which seems to be how He spoke to other.  As a prophetess, Miriam is identified as a musical soothsayer and we DO know what happened to her when she claimed to speak FOR GOD.  Just the present writers CLAIMING that the excised Spirit OF Christ speaks through them is really psychological violence making it harder to question and refute.  I've got no shame.

I have some excerpts from that book (probably) but it is easier to bypass these two and go straight to the sources. What one of them also tries to sell is that Alexander Campbell was a trinitarian based on the COMMUNING concept.  Three persons (people) of the Godhead are three separate "centers of consciousness." That means THREE GODS.  That must have been an erlier invention--for the first time in recorded history--first publically expounded at what is now FHU by H.Leo.Boles and first published by the Gospel Advocate in 1942.  Because Earl Edwards teaches that I assume that is the DOGMA of LU.

What these tritheists (polytheists) teach is that "this is the age of the Holy Spirit" and that is why the Father people was for the Old Testament (fathers are always mean), Jesus was the God people of the Biblical period but the Holy Spirit people now speaks to us "beyond the sacred pages." These people claim to be postmodern and some "post christendom" claiming that because the original writings have been sifted by philosophy (them), evolution and the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle there are only a few confused fragments. Therefore, they take the LIBERTY to write themselves in as a greater-than Moses or a more powerful than Jesus for our changed culture.

If they spoke of the REIGN OF CHRIST then most of us believe that he NOW REIGNS in his church or Kingdom begun at Pentecost. The Kingdom Come concept is that they are anticipating the REIGN WITH CHRIST FUTURE TENSE.  I am sorry that none of the millenniel people ever bothered to read Revelation.

Would you kindly clip out some of the stuff on the Holy Spirit and post it. Better yet, if you could scan some of it and e-mail it I would be eternally thankful in MY spirit (my mind as the Holy Spirit is the Mind of Christ and never the twain shall sever.)  John says that the NAME of the Holy Spirit is "Jesus Christ the Righteous."

You could use an alias so I won't know who you are :-)

blituri@hughes.net

Finally, we should not trash the use the Bible for their authority (like all in history before them) by claiming some supernatural contact with their Spirit person who is NOT still attached to Father or Son: Jesus as the Christ says I AM THEM.


Never mind: I think I have found it on JMH's web site (pre book stage)

[blituri]

John Mark Hicks quotes:

     While "miraculous powers in men have ceased with the apostolic age," this does not mean that "God has ceased to answer prayer."  And, according to Harding, "every answer to prayer is a miracle."128  Harding so thoroughly envisions God's active role in the world and the incomprehensible character of his work that everything God does creates wonder and awe in the hearts of people.  Since God does things in answer to prayer that beyond our understanding, it is appropriate to say that answers to prayer are miraculous:129

I don't think so: Miracles have always been a SIGN or WONDER. Even the SIGNS which would follow the apostles was limited to FOUR AREAS in the sense of SIGNS of their own authority as the prophets were unique.  The miracles were done AT THE HAND OF THE APOSTLES.

G4592 sēmeion say-mi'-on Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591 ; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally:—miracle, sign, token, wonder.

Acts 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men?
        for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them
        is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem;
        and we cannot deny it.

People claim VISIONS and hear audible voices and have the Holy Spirit tell them to sow discord by twisting all of the Bible and recorded history. What is this? It is called a LYING WONDER and it is psychological violence.

And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. Luke 4:24
But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias,
        when the heaven was shut up three years and six months,
        when great famine was throughout all the land; Luke 4:25
But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon,
        unto a woman that was a widow. Luke 4:26

The MESSAGE the widow got was that he SPOKE THE WORD OF GOD.

And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet;
        and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. Luke 4:27

        And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, Luke 4:28

And rose up, and thrust him out of the city,
        and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built,
        that they might cast him down headlong. Luke 4:29
Luke 4:30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

This is how the Scape Goat offered to Azazel or Satan was handled: as real people in some areas.

If God raised the dead as a result of prayer, it would not be a MIRACLE or a SIGN.
Most people would DOUBT it and claim that the person was not dead.
Those who had their Praying Ministry would come to doubt it.
If a person cannot perform something supernatural so that even their enemies cannot doubt it, then when they mock Christ by claiming "the Holy Spirit person" as speaking beyond the sacred page, then we are given evidence to MARK and AVOID that person.

[DCR]

The cited original source for the quote is Harding, "Prayer for the Sick," The Way 3. (9 May 1901), 41.

I cannot find this online other than where it is referenced and quoted on B. Valentine's archived blog:
http://stoned-campbelldisciple.blogspot.com/2006_04_01_archive.html and also in JMH's article at http://johnmarkhicks.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/harding-as-evangelist-and-teacher.doc.

[blituri]

I have taken John Mark Hicks teaching the indwelling of the Holy Spirit part of his paper and done a quick review:

http://www.piney.com/Holy.Spirit.Harding.Hicks.html

Jesus warned about the Doctors of the Law taking away the key to knowledge: despite the warning I am still shocked that people can promote themselves as dominant Thought Leaders while apparently (very) having never read the Bible in context. I reject the idea that one should not tamper with them by quoting the context of the text they use to promote dogma

Harding seems to be that middle ground which hit most conservative preachers in the mid 60s when the charismatic movement was swiped from the snake handlers and imported into the mainline.  I remember living in Seattle when Dennis Bennett seduced a lot of people into thinking that a mental breakdown was the "spirit inside."

That view of the conservatives was seemingly HAVING to confess to the LITTERAL indwelling of a person of the Family of Gods named The Holy Spirit.  Of course, we know that the NAME of Father, Son and Spirit was Jesus Christ or Jehovah--saves.  However, this literally indwelling left a spirit with nothing to do but roam around the mind all day.

The next step was that the spirit PERSON really did something: to the LU dogma the Father and Son have been postmoderned and the SPIRIT person speaks to us and makes sure that we can do anything if we are just sincere and say Jesus enough times in a song.

I will look a bit deeper but Harding's views are Hicks' views which are LUs views which he suggests as the PATTERNISM to fight the conservatives still believing that God has a right to COMMAND us to do something and has a WILL to trump OUR will worship.

This is probably the same material promoting a literal indwelling INSIDE of our carnal bodies in Hicks and Valentine's misguided missle.

http://www.piney.com/KingdomComeOne.html

[DCR]

The next step was that the spirit PERSON really did something: to the LU dogma the Father and Son have been postmoderned and the SPIRIT person speaks to us and makes sure that we can do anything if we are just sincere and say Jesus enough times in a song.

I will look a bit deeper but Harding's views are Hicks' views which are LUs views which he suggests as the PATTERNISM to fight the conservatives still believing that God has a right to COMMAND us to do something and has a WILL to trump OUR will worship.

This is probably the same material promoting a literal indwelling INSIDE of our carnal bodies in Hicks and Valentine's misguided missle.

http://www.piney.com/KingdomComeOne.html

A premise being suggested by these contemporary writers and historians is that the (what they refer to as) "word only" position was a newer point of view borne out of Lockean and Baconian rationalistic theory.  They would claim that their view of a more proactive work of the Holy Spirit is more historical and indeed more Biblical.  The idea of God leaving the Bible with no other interactive or providential work is described as "Biblical Deism" (by at least one historian).  Deism is the view held even by some of the early American "Founding Fathers" which says that God set the world into motion and then left it without further intervention.  The idea that God only left the Word (the Bible) in the hands of men with no other intervention is compared to that.

Someone was quoted (can't remember who) as characterizing the view point as something along the lines of, "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit went into early retirement in heaven, leaving only the Bible for us.  And, Jesus will return one day 'to see how it all worked out'!" (roughly paraphrased, I'm sure).

That scratches the surface of some of the discussion here.  I've perused some of your articles.  You venture off into so many different directions that I don't have time to look at it all.  However, I will give you credit for examining many of these things.  And, no doubt, you've been exposed to the info I'm posting here.  I'm not very deep into all this yet.  However, it started with a lecture I attended, given by the historian and writer C. Leonard Allen, and I am now reading the book Kingdom Come by Hicks and Valentine.

As time allows, I need to read further and cite more sources of some of this info I've gleaned so far.

[blituri]

The idea that God only left the Word (the Bible) in the hands of men with no other intervention is compared to that.

I intend to post the reviewed comments in red.  My comments will be in black. Historical or Biblical quotations will be in blue. You should be able to skip from red to red, look at the teaching and decide whether you want to read the BIBLE or not: you can skip most of the stuff in black.

Almost no one before the present spawn thinks that God continues to supply later day revelations.  If He supplied us all that is required for life and Godliness. And church is a SCHOOL OF THAT MESSAGE.  There is nothing in the future which could make that original message obsolete. So, they DO think that God speaks to THEM or they would not be promoting the idea.

    All of the discorders think that the ekklesia / synagogue is a WORSHIP SERVICE intended to suck in the seekers. It is no such thing: those who would claim a teaching role are commanded to GO, preach and baptize so that people can be taugt what JESUS TAUGHT.

    There view is from Hollywood, Dollywod and the Grand Ole Opry: if their VENUE is not getting its share of the trade and income because the culture has changed, then they think that they have to do market research and hire a better main act. But, that destroys any confidence in those who are SELF-APPOINTED to sow discord.

I don't believe that but there are several facts made perfectly clear from the church in the wilderness to the ekklesia Jesus spoke of and the gatherings of the synagogue in Paul's words

First, Jesus didn't send people out to make "worshipers" which in our world defines the rituals which produce the laded burden Jesus died to stop. A burden in Hebrew and Greek is a song calcualted to induce anxiety especially the over and over, lord, lord, lord sayers.

Second, he commanded them to make DISCIPLES. Now, a student does not go to Bible class to "worship" in the new but ancient sense of arousal events.  Paul's ONLY worship word meant to "give heed" to the Word of God. You cannot give heed to a singer and the Words of God at the same time.

        Paul defined that ekklesia / synagogue and practiced it out on mission. He never had a "praise service" because it was
        outlawed for the church in the wilderness.  And he commanded Timothy how to "hold service." The church never violated
        that until the year 373.

The Ekklesia or Synagogue was a WORD OF GOD only assembly: it began in the wilderness and QUARANTINED the righteous people from the later animal sacrifices.

        It was inclusive of REST, reading and/or rehearsing the Word. Everyone goes home more discipled.
        It was exclusive of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing."  Like the end time trumpet sound, that was reserved
        for warnings or signals.

Someone was quoted (can't remember who) as characterizing the view point as something along the lines of, "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit went into early retirement in heaven, leaving only the Bible for us.  And, Jesus will return one day 'to see how it all worked out'!

The NAME of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is "Jesus Christ the Righteous." No HE (God is always a HE). Is still alive and well ruling over HIS KINGDOM which HAS COME.  However, he made it clear that truth comes only through prophets and apostles.

Furthermore, the absentee landlord and the talents maybe should a subject for study by these men.

IF we see Jesus (Father, Son and Spirit) I am pretty sure that it will not be at a lecture gathering up money and fame (?).  He will look like the poor man who is PURPOSED TO ELEMINATE as the purpose driven market research sets their sights on the up and coming.

They miss the point that Jesus by pure Grace gave us all that we have: our task is to see what we can do with what we are given. Spiritual Development and not numerical growth is the purpose.

Furthermore, ALL of the insight these guys are getting SEEMS to be the same old legalistic proof texting: they CONFESS that they have the liberty to use the Bible fragments.  The problem is that when you open yourself up to "hear beyond the sacred pages" an UNholy spirit may steal in.  Peter etal spoke of a COMPLETED message when the Apostles had finished their task.  This is the ONLY WAY you can detect false teachers.

These guys embarrass be and I assure you I have no "theater of operations" I need to defend. Here is Leonard Allen's Polytheistic (LU) definition of the social trinity.

http://www.piney.com/Trinity.Leonard.Allen.html

It wouldn't be so tragic if they could find any trinitiarian who ever flirted with the fires who ever even thought of the ONE god being cut up into three separate persons which to the moderns means people.  Again, I am certain that they would dare be scholar enough to read the posted links because their mind is made up and what's popular and marketable is important.

I will take on the rationalists, Locke view next: I assure you that none of these people have read any John Locke. 

[blituri]

    A premise being suggested by these contemporary writers and historians is that the (what they refer to as) "word only" position was a newer point of view borne out of Lockean and Baconian rationalistic theory.  They would claim that their view of a more proactive work of the Holy Spirit is more historical and indeed more Biblical.

1. Locke along with the Bible and allhistorical scholarship denies that scholars or philosophers who use THEIR REASON can be trusted.
2. However, when we hear the INSPIRED TEXT it seems reasonable to us.
3. Proof that NONE of them have read the REAL Locke but quotes from quotes from quotes.
4. Why do they DO that?  In the words of a famous President: "Because I CAN" and no one will know the difference.

Leonard Allen and a small group which spawned about the same time (hurt by the hippy, Children of God, baby boomers (infantile drummers)0 CLAIM that the Holy Spirit is speaking to THEM (why else the panic?) "beyond the sacred page." Now OUR human reason which accepts the WORD OF GOD will just say NO: No, we will not drink your KookAid. No, we will not burn ourselves up at Waco to get to heaven faster." 

    There is not ONE SINGLE Raca accusation against the Church of Christ to side step the Scriptures which was not INVENTED by the Disciples of Christ. 

    Richard L. Hamm then President (defacto pope) of the Disciples of Christ.

    http://www.piney.com/Hamm-Disciples.html

    I want to lift up these four basic sources of revelation.
    The first is Scripture, which for Christians means, of course, the Holy Bible (which is to say the whole Bible: the Hebrew and Christian testaments).

    The second is reason and the third is experience. We Disciples are quite appreciative of these sources. Our movement was born within the philosophical context of

        John Locke who said that truth can be known through reason tempered with experience.
        In this secular age in which we live, I'm afraid that many of us have increasingly depended on these two sources alone,
        but reason and experience are two valuable sources for understanding God.

    The fourth is tradition. The Church has learned some things in the past two thousand years (that's right, the Church learned some things even before Alexander Campbell!). By looking to the Church's tradition (its history, its declarations, its collective wisdom) one can learn much about the nature of God and the nature of humankind. As the sage has said, one who does not learn history is doomed to repeat it. Studying the church's tradition is a way for us to learn some things the easy way!

        The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Living God,
        uses these four sources of revelation to teach us who God is and who we are.

They also invented the Law of Silence.

http://www.piney.com/Unity.Boles.html

http://www.piney.com/Lockereasonableness.html

John Locke denied that REASON had ever contributed anything to spiritual religion. However, when God reveals, then it seems reasonable to the mind which God created. Locke speaks of HUMAN REASON and concluded that:

1. In this state of darkness and error, in reference to the "true God" Our Saviour found the world.
    But the clear revelation he brought with him, dissipated this darkness;
    made the one invisible true God known to the world:
    and that with such evidence and energy,
    that polytheism and idolatry hath no where been able to withstand it.

    But wherever the preaching of the truth he delivered, and the light of the gospel hath come, those mists have been dispelled.


[Jesus came as the LIGHT of the world: once you have REVEALED THE LIGHT, why would a mercinary gain fame and fortune for demanding that HE IS THE NEW LIGHT.

Once the Last Will and Testament of your mother has been executed, why would you protest and want to REMAKE your mother's will so YOU get the goodies?  Well, we know why don't we.

2. Next to the knowledge of one God; maker of all things,
    a clear knowledge of their duty was wanting to mankind.
    This part of knowledge, though cultivated with some care, by some of the heathen philosophers,
    yet got little footing among the people.

    Here is where I believe that believers who have lost their faith are more superstitious, fearful and legalistic.

    All men indeed, under pain of displeasing the gods, were to frequent the temples,
    every one went to their sacrifices and services; but the priests made it not their business to teach them virtue.

REPUDIATING NATURAL REASONING

But natural religion, in its full extent, was nowhere, that I know, taken care of by the force of natural reason.

It should seem, by the little that has hitherto been done in it, that 'tis too hard a task for unassisted reason, to establish morality, in all its parts, upon its true foundations, with a clear and convincing light.

And 'tis at least a surer and shorter way, to the apprehensions of the vulgar, and mass of mankind,
        that one manifestly sent from God, and coming with visible authority from him,
        should, as a King and law-maker, tell them their duties, and require their obedience,

than leave it to the long, and sometimes intricate deductions of reason, to be made out to them:

such strains of reasonings the greatest part of mankind have neither leisure to weigh, nor, for want of education and use, skill to judge of.

We see how unsuccessful in this, the attempts of philosophers were, before Our Saviour's time. How short their several systems came of the perfection of a true and complete morality, is very visible.

When you hear REVEALED truth it APPEALS to our reason.

    And if, since that, the Christian philosophers have much outdone them, yet we may observe,

        that the first knowledge of the truths they have added are,
        owing to revelation; though as soon as they are heard and considered,
        they are found to be agreeable to reason, and such as can by no means be contradicted.

Truth appeals to our REASON; Reason NEVER reveals TRUTH. John Locke is usually maligned.

I have talked with some of their teachers, who confess themselves not to understand the difference in debate between them:

    and yet the points they stand on, are reckoned of so great weight, so material, so fundamental in religion,
    that they divide communion, and separate upon them.

Had God intended that none but the learned scribe, the disputer or wise of this world, should be Christians, or be saved; thus religion should have been prepared for them, filled with speculations and niceties, obscure terms, and abstract notions.

But men of that expectation, men furnished with such acquisitions, the apostle tells us, I Cor. i, are rather shut out from the simplicity of the gospel,
        to make way for those poor, ignorant, illiterate, who heard and believed the promises of a deliverer,
        and believed Jesus to be him; who could conceive a man dead and made alive again, and, believe that he should,
        at the end of the world, come again, and pass sentence on all men, according to their deeds.

That the poor had the gospel preached to them, Christ makes a mark, as well as business, of his mission, Matt. xi. 5. And if the poor had the gospel preached to them, it was, without doubt, such a gospel as the poor could understand, plain and intelligible: and so it was, as we have seen, in the preaching of Christ and his apostles.

[DCR]

The idea that God only left the Word (the Bible) in the hands of men with no other intervention is compared to that.

I intend to post the reviewed comments in red.  My comments will be in black. Historical or Biblical quotations will be in blue. You should be able to skip from red to red, look at the teaching and decide whether you want to read the BIBLE or not: you can skip most of the stuff in black.

Almost no one before the present spawn thinks that God continues to supply later day revelations.

Who said anything about "later day revelations"?  That doesn't seem to be what I'm hearing promoted here.  As far as I've noticed so far, no one that I've listened to or read in any of this has claimed that prophetic messages from God are being communicated in present times.  Scripture is still respected as Scripture.  I think the sticking point is in how God works mysteriously or providentially.  And, the discussion seems to really point in the direction of sanctification.  This is certainly a deep subject to ponder.  But, I don't think it's as simplistic as saying that folks are claiming to receive incoming messages from God.  It's really the idea of providence and God moving in mysterious ways.

...I will take on the rationalists, Locke view next: I assure you that none of these people have read any John Locke.  

As usual, you lay down the starting points of lots of different trails to veer off from the discussion.  But, I don't necessarily want to go off topic on everything you're saying about worship and all the complex motives you're speculating these people to be having.  I prefer to narrow my focus on bits and pieces at a time.  

[blituri]

That's not true: There is a body of people self-ordained who claim to be 13th apostles.

Max Lucado claims to have received a vision to take Christ off the public confession and add instrumental music

Rubel Shelly claims that we should be able to hear audible voices. He and John York claim to have received new spectacles to get a new vision for the church of Christ. He claims that "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" means that the church worked out their own scripture but even with the help of the Holy Spirit (person) could not fit all of the "words" into the Bible (quoting John). Therefore WE are working out our own salvation interpreted to mean "writing a new narrative for our own culture.."

Rick Atchley and others claim the Holy Spirit as leading them to the decision (after about 12 years of prep) to impose musical instruments.

Edward Fudge and a host of supporters claims that we should hear "beyond the sacred page."

I don't know of any "legalists" in the Church of Christ who denies providence and the answer to prayer.  Harding and the LU sect clearly claim that the "spirit" gives them the power to answer infidels etc. They promote a LITERAL indwelling of the Holy Spirit Person ignorant of the fact that Jesus Christ repudiated the pagan triads by claiming to be Father, Son and Spirit. John said that the NAME of the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ the Righteous.  Otherwise there would be no debate.

Besides you brought up the Lockean and Baconian rationalistic theory which must have oozed out of their own spirit because they all lie about Locke who is claimed by the disciples as the father of their authority.

Sorry to have bothered you.

[DCR]

That's not true: There is a body of people self-ordained who claim to be 13th apostles.

Who claim to be "13th apostles"?  Direct quotes please.

Max Lucado claims to have received a vision to take Christ off the public confession and add instrumental music

Now, you're bringing more people into the mix.  What Max Lucado has or hasn't done is not relevant to Harding or the other historical issues we've discussed.  But, I do question the accuracy of your characterization of him here.  The "paraphrase" often doesn't match the original, unless you can quote him when and where and in what context.

Rubel Shelly claims that we should be able to hear audible voices. He and John York claim to have received new spectacles to get a new vision for the church of Christ. He claims that "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" means that the church worked out their own scripture but even with the help of the Holy Spirit (person) could not fit all of the "words" into the Bible (quoting John). Therefore WE are working out our own salvation interpreted to mean "writing a new narrative for our own culture.."

Rick Atchley and others claim the Holy Spirit as leading them to the decision (after about 12 years of prep) to impose musical instruments.

Edward Fudge and a host of supporters claims that we should hear "beyond the sacred page."

Without direct quotations along with when and where and in what context we might find the statements you're referring to, I'm a bit skeptical of your characterization of what these men have said.  Be very careful not to put words into people's mouths on the basis of how you "interpret" or draw conclusions from statements they've made.  

I don't know of any "legalists" in the Church of Christ who denies providence and the answer to prayer.  Harding and the LU sect clearly claim that the "spirit" gives them the power to answer infidels etc. They promote a LITERAL indwelling of the Holy Spirit Person ignorant of the fact that Jesus Christ repudiated the pagan triads by claiming to be Father, Son and Spirit. John said that the NAME of the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ the Righteous.  Otherwise there would be no debate.

There is no denying that Scripture speaks of the "Holy Spirit" as an entity being distinguished from the Father and the Son in certain contexts.  If you want to affirm that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, then be my guest.  But, I'm content to admit to not fully grasping the nature of God and/or the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Scripture links and even equates Them/Him at times.  But, Scripture also makes distinctions between the "roles" or "persons" or however you wish to define it at other times.  On the other hand, you might be coming close to venturing into "Oneness Doctrine" or "modalism" (whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is not for me to say, however such has been considered a departure from orthodox Christian doctrine in ages past).  

Besides you brought up the Lockean and Baconian rationalistic theory which must have oozed out of their own spirit because they all lie about Locke who is claimed by the disciples as the father of their authority.

Sorry to have bothered you.

And, sorry if I came across as rude or terse.  It just seems that your response to simple dialog and discussion of issues with fairly limited scope is to unload a massive amount of documentation you've personally put together over all kinds of theories and information you've cobbled together that will require extensive time to read and mostly leaves one scratching his head, with as many side trails and other cross-linked articles you've written as any good subject on Wikipedia.  

And, inevitably, it usually comes back to musical idolatry you claim happened at Sinai.  

[Norton]

The "Word only" folks cut themselves off at the knees. Doubting that there was Divine Agency after the age of the apostles, is the same as doubting the Word.  If we don't believe the Holy Spirit guided men in assemblling the NT canon, we have no reason to believe we have the pure Word of God in the NT.

[blituri]

Believing in the Divine Providence of God in protecting His Word does not mean that Pastor Puny hears voices telling him to impose instruments knowing that he plans to so discord.

Before you get the right to mock the facts you should find some credible historical figure who does NOT defend the CENI. And who credits all false teaching to NOT teaching that which is written which is the DIRECT COMMAND for the church if you missed Romans 15 just after Paul silenced "doubtful disputations" which would be ANY THING which comes out of your own cloudy mind.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians: also called Ignatius Theophoros (Greek: "God Bearer") bishop of Antioch, Syria, born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117. Ignatius introduced the practice of alternating sections of the church chanting the Word. Ignatius d. c 110

Sure, no one was such a simple simon that they did not know that the SOLE resource for the ekklesia / synagogue was the WORD OF CHRIST.  If one is a disciple of Christ they learn what CHRIST taught including the Prophets and apostles.  How silly to think that a disciple of Christ should PAY to become the disciple of Pastor The-0-lite.  I never cease to not be amazed that the MASSED MULTITUDES would do that when Jesus invited the few to come OUTSIDE of the massed multitudes to Rest and learn of ME.'  Lordy, I would laugh too.

Chapter IX.-Ye Have Given No Heed to False Teachers.

http://www.piney.com/FathIgnatiusEphesians.html#P1214_224344

Nevertheless, I have heard of some who have passed on from this to you, having false doctrine, whom ye did not suffer to sow among you, but stopped your ears, that ye might not receive those things which were sown by them, as being stones of the temple of the Father, prepared for the building of God the Father, and drawn up on high by the instrument of Jesus Christ, which is the cross,  making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope, while your faith was the means by which you ascended, and your love the way which led up to God.

Ye, therefore, as well as all your fellow-travellers, are God-bearers, temple-bearers, Christ-bearers, bearers of holiness, adorned in all respects with the commandments of Jesus Christ, in whom also I exult that I have been thought worthy, by means of this Epistle, to converse and rejoice with you, because with respect to your Christian life ye love nothing but God only.

Nevertheless, I have heard of some who have passed in among you, holding the wicked doctrine of the strange and evil spirit; to whom ye did not allow entrance to sow their tares, but stopped your ears that ye might not receive that error which was proclaimed by them,

as being persuaded that that spirit which deceives the people does not speak the things of Christ,
        but his own, for he is a lying spirit.
        Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
        He was a murderer from the beginning,
        and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:
        for he is a liar, and the father of it. Jn. 8:44

Now, Jesus did not say THOU SHALT NOT MAKE UP THY SONGS AND SERMONS: He just said "for he is a liar and the father of it."  Now that sounds pretty LOUD to me.

NOW DON'T WE WONDER WHY PEOPLE GIVE THEMSELVES THE RIGHT THAT NEITHER CHRIST NOR HIS SPIRIT HAD A RIGHT TO?

But the Holy Spirit does not speak His own things, but those of Christ,
        and that not from himself, but from the Lord;
        even as the Lord also announced to us the things that He received from the Father.

When God pours out His wrath in Hebrew it means that He sends BUFFOONS and JESTERS.

    For, says He, "the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's, who sent Me.
    And says He of the Holy Spirit,
            "He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever things He shall hear from Me."[/color]

Now, just WHERE do you guys get the authority to speak FROM SILENCE: off your meds again?

And He says of Himself to the Father, "I have," says He, "glorified Thee upon the earth; I have finished the work which, Thou gavest Me; I have manifested Thy name to men."

        And of the Holy Ghost, "He shall glorify Me, for He receives of Mine."

Whoa! when the "spirit" tells preachers to lie about all of the instrument passages and recorded history, do you IMAGINE that they might be listening to their OWN spirit or an EVIL SPIRIT: a LYING SPIRIT. John lumps sorcerers (musicians, rhetoricians) with liars and DOGS for the BURN PILE: He did NOT say "thou shalt NOT be a sorcerer.?

But the spirit of deceit preaches himself, [oh, gag, yes]
        and speaks his own things, for he seeks to please himself.
        He glorifies himself, for he is full of arrogance.
        He is lying, fraudulent, soothing, flattering, treacherous, rhapsodical, trifling,
        inharmonious, verbose, sordid, and timorous.

THAT'S WHAT I HAVE BEEN TELLING YOU WHEN THE LYING, FRAUDULENT, SOOTHING, TRIFLING UNLAWFULLY WAGED GET YOUR CLAPPY--SINGING ENDORSEMENT.  AND YOU JUST CAN'T STOP LAUGHING.

From his power Jesus Christ will deliver you ME , who has founded you ME upon the rock, as being chosen stones, well fitted for the divine edifice of the Father, and who are raised up on high by Christ, who was crucified for you, making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope, and being borne up by faith, while exalted by love from earth to heaven, walking in company with those that are undefiled.

For, says [the Scripture], "Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord." Now the way is unerring, namely, Jesus Christ. For, says He, "I am the way and the life." And this way leads to the Father.

For "no man," says He, "cometh to the Father but by Me." Blessed, then, are ye who are God-bearers, spirit-bearers, temple-bearers, bearers of holiness, adorned in all respects with the commandments of Jesus Christ, being "a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people," on whose account I rejoice exceedingly, and have had the privilege, by this Epistle, of conversing with "the saints which are at Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus." I rejoice, therefore, over you, that ye do not give heed to vanity, and love nothing according to the flesh, but according to God.

Now, would you confess that making a MAJOR INDUSTRY out of coining RACA words to mock people who insist that YOU don't have the authority to "Infiltrate and divert" a happy church was NOT invented by the Churches of Christ?  I am surprised that people are WAGED to preach the Word without knowing that eternal principle or who are so ethically deprived that they would prowl the nation seeking to sell books and sign up bookings boasting about BETRAYING their own Widows and hard-working honest people. Sounds like a Strong Delusion to me and LYING WONDERS specifically NAMING all of the hypocritic or performing arts and "artists" ;-)