CofC Views of Divine Agency After the Age of Apostles

[s1n4m1n]

I highly doubt anyone past about AD 150 was still possessing the gifts of the Spirit...

Nothing in the highlighted is saying the gifts are still being manifested at that time.

which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles

the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe in Him

That is not the language of something that has past or is passing away. That is something that was happening as of 180AD as Irenaeus states "EVEN NOW DAY BY DAY."

Just admit the truth, that there is historical evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles.

Lively:  and we have people today who swear they heal the sick too...  but such is not supported biblically, one has come to understand what the bible does teach on this subject...

Which is irrelevant to the fact that you said:

There is simply no evidence for a continuation of Spiritual gifts after the age of apostles

when, in fact, there is historical evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles. You may reject that evidence based on some teaching you may hold, but you cannot say that evidence does not exist.

The only thing you can say is: Despite the evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles, I reasoned that spiritual gifts did not continue.

Just admit the truth, that there is historical evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles.

[Livelysword]

I highly doubt anyone past about AD 150 was still possessing the gifts of the Spirit...

Nothing in the highlighted is saying the gifts are still being manifested at that time.

which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles

the name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe in Him

That is not the language of something that has past or is passing away. That is something that was happening as of 180AD as Irenaeus states "EVEN NOW DAY BY DAY."

Just admit the truth, that there is historical evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles.

Lively:  and we have people today who swear they heal the sick too...  but such is not supported biblically, one has come to understand what the bible does teach on this subject...

Which is irrelevant to the fact that you said:

There is simply no evidence for a continuation of Spiritual gifts after the age of apostles

when, in fact, there is historical evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles. You may reject that evidence based on some teaching you may hold, but you cannot say that evidence does not exist.

The only thing you can say is: Despite the evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles, I reasoned that spiritual gifts did not continue.

Just admit the truth, that there is historical evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles.

Lively:  look at what you are saying or what is being coveighed concerning healings... then view what is actually happening... even with an apostle there whom we knew had Spiritual gifts and could heal others...


Php 2:25  Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
Php 2:26  For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
Php 2:27  For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
Php 2:28  I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
Php 2:29  Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
Php 2:30  Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.


so if the man was sick and with Paul, why then did not Paul lay hands upon him... why must this man be nigh unto death being with an apostle who has the ability to lay hands upon another and heal them?


Jas 5:14  Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15  And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.


why are not the elders laying hands upon the individual and healing them of their sickness... why is it they are told to pray for the healing of the sick if the continuing gift of laying hands upon another to heal them is continuing?  The fact is, the gift is not continuing...  Neither are any of the gifts past the time of the apostolic age...  to be honest, I could care less what someone had wrote and or stated way back...  there were many liars and deceivers way back then too...  scripture has to back up any claim made of such gifts after the apostolic age, and it does not... it teaches it is to come to an end.  Why send for Peter and John to come to Samaria in Acts 8?  We need to study the verses... especially Acts 8 & 19, Eph 3 & 4, and 1Cor 12 & 13.  We can not advocate something which teaches contrary to these verses... 


By all means too, give the date such was said to be written...

[Livelysword]

I highly doubt anyone past about AD 150 was still possessing the gifts of the Spirit...


Just admit the truth, that there is historical evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles.

Lively:  All kinds of people wrote all kinds of things in both the second and third century after the apostles died...  while people may have written things and there is historical writings from them, such does not necessitate what they said is the truth.  How many heresies have been taught from back in the second and third centuries which we flatly outright deny as the faith of Christ... yet there it is that historical document, which they stated something.

[blituri]

When Jesus gave the commission in Mark 16 He said that the signs would follow after people obeyed the gospel by being baptized.  The Apostles then went out preaching and the Lord Worked with them to confirm the Word. That prophecy was to four GROUPS of people.  Miracles were always rare and always as testimony to Prophets or Apostles ordained by God.

When warning that miracles are unusual, Jesus goes back to the Elijsh/ Elisha period as the last great manifestation of miracles. And in addressing His native Nazarenes, Jesus read their intententions:

"And He said to them, 'No doubt you will quote the proverb to Me, 'Physician, heal yourself. Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your home town as well'" (Luke 4:23).

Jesus then explains that God always uses miracles sparingly and then the context shows that they are for confirmation:

"But I say to you in truth, there were MANY widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; and YET Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a women who was a widow" (v. 25-26).

The result of raising the widow's son to life was the confession: "Now I know you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is truth" (1 Ki. 17:24). The miracle was to confirm God's messenger.

"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian" (v. 27).

Again the result was confirmation. The outcome of this miracles, besides teaching obedience to God's commands, is seen in the expression: "Behold, I know that there is no God in all the earth but in Israel" (2 Ki. 5:15).

The Nazarenes, like the Corinthians, put their trust in supernatural signs and despised prophesying or preaching. When the people understood that Jesus was preaching to them instead of giving them some signs they turned upon the Incarnate God of the universe as they would a common criminal:

"And all in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; and they rose up and cast Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff" (V. 28-28). # The testimony of John:

Prior to giving Thomas a physical demonstration of His identity, Jesus had just pronounced His blessing upon those who believed WITHOUT some physical manifestation. John goes on to say:

"Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; (John 20:30)

"But these have BEEN WRITTEN THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (v. 31)

Why would John write such a thing if miracles still continued when He wrote his later account?

Apostles, only, had the authority to ordain others to carry on the work requiring extraordinary power in a very unique time.  Those second order men had no authority to pass on the gift to the next generation. That is why Philip had gifts, the Apostles had to come to Samaria to equip others to carry on the work.

[Livelysword]

When Jesus gave the commission in Mark 16 He said that the signs would follow after people obeyed the gospel by being baptized.  The Apostles then went out preaching and the Lord Worked with them to confirm the Word. That prophecy was to four GROUPS of people.  Miracles were always rare and always as testimony to Prophets or Apostles ordained by God.

When warning that miracles are unusual, Jesus goes back to the Elijsh/ Elisha period as the last great manifestation of miracles. And in addressing His native Nazarenes, Jesus read their intententions:

"And He said to them, 'No doubt you will quote the proverb to Me, 'Physician, heal yourself. Whatever we heard was done at Capernaum, do here in your home town as well'" (Luke 4:23).

Jesus then explains that God always uses miracles sparingly and then the context shows that they are for confirmation:

"But I say to you in truth, there were MANY widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; and YET Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a women who was a widow" (v. 25-26).

The result of raising the widow's son to life was the confession: "Now I know you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is truth" (1 Ki. 17:24). The miracle was to confirm God's messenger.

"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian" (v. 27).

Again the result was confirmation. The outcome of this miracles, besides teaching obedience to God's commands, is seen in the expression: "Behold, I know that there is no God in all the earth but in Israel" (2 Ki. 5:15).

The Nazarenes, like the Corinthians, put their trust in supernatural signs and despised prophesying or preaching. When the people understood that Jesus was preaching to them instead of giving them some signs they turned upon the Incarnate God of the universe as they would a common criminal:

"And all in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; and they rose up and cast Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff" (V. 28-28). # The testimony of John:

Prior to giving Thomas a physical demonstration of His identity, Jesus had just pronounced His blessing upon those who believed WITHOUT some physical manifestation. John goes on to say:

"Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; (John 20:30)

"But these have BEEN WRITTEN THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (v. 31)

Why would John write such a thing if miracles still continued when He wrote his later account?

Apostles, only, had the authority to ordain others to carry on the work requiring extraordinary power in a very unique time.  Those second order men had no authority to pass on the gift to the next generation. That is why Philip had gifts, the Apostles had to come to Samaria to equip others to carry on the work.

Lively:  Right on...  I concur...   this is why such gifts could not go beyond anyone who had not been inferred the gift of the Spirit by an apostle.

[DCR]

conferred

[Johnb]

Show me the evidence!  Oh I don't believe that evidence.

Same old same old. 

[s1n4m1n]

Show me the evidence!  Oh I don't believe that evidence.

Same old same old. 

Quite sad really.

[s1n4m1n]

I highly doubt anyone past about AD 150 was still possessing the gifts of the Spirit...

Just admit the truth, that there is historical evidence that spiritual gifts continued after the age of the apostles.

Lively:  All kinds of people wrote all kinds of things in both the second and third century after the apostles died...  while people may have written things and there is historical writings from them, such does not necessitate what they said is the truth.  How many heresies have been taught from back in the second and third centuries which we flatly outright deny as the faith of Christ... yet there it is that historical document, which they stated something.

Beyond just "stated something", Irenaeus clearly writes that spiritual gifts of healing, etc. existed in his day (180AD). Moreover, he was writing this in defense of the Church and the Faith against heresies.

You may choose to reject that evidence for some doctrinal reason, but don't go around saying no evidence exists when it does. Before you thought there was no evidence from ignorance, you were shown the evidence, so now you are saying there is no evidence from intransigence.

Ken

[Livelysword]

Show me the evidence!  Oh I don't believe that evidence.

Same old same old. 

Lively:  It does not hold to the truth of the bible John... You know, Catholics taught purgatory and sold indulgences... do you agree with those things which were written by them way back too, or will you demand that such a teaching has to stand the test of being biblically sound to hold to, or shall we just be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine?

[Johnb]

Lively
I am at the beach again but in Panama city beach FL this week.  I only have limited access to the net so it may be a while before I get back with you.

Here is the question.  Where in the NT does it clearly teach that all miricales and gifts would end with the death of the last of the apostle?  Please don't go to I Cor 13 that is not the subject of the text nor is a time given.

[Livelysword]

Lively
I am at the beach again but in Panama city beach FL this week.  I only have limited access to the net so it may be a while before I get back with you.

Here is the question.  Where in the NT does it clearly teach that all miricales and gifts would end with the death of the last of the apostle?  Please don't go to I Cor 13 that is not the subject of the text nor is a time given.

Lively:  What the verse states is, when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away... it is not stating a specific time or date... it speaking of an event.  When that which is perfect is come... then that which is in part shall be done away.   One can view it like analog tv to digital tv... we used analog for a period of time, but when digital tv came we switched to it, the analog was done away.  The gift of the Holy Ghost was only to last till that which is perfect came... but after the perfect came, then we were no longer under that which was in part... the gifts of the Spirit.

[Johnb]

Lively
That made no sense at all.  The subject of ! Cor. 13 is love.   "That which is perfect has been debated by the best minds and scolars for centuries without a definitive answer.  That is why I ask for a specific verse.  The simply is none.  Therefore it falls into the relm of opinion.  IMO That was a special age with special powers and miracles to establish Jesus as the Son of God and the apostles as His disciples.  That does not rule out miracles or other great works of God today.

[Livelysword]

Lively
That made no sense at all.  The subject of ! Cor. 13 is love.   "That which is perfect has been debated by the best minds and scolars for centuries without a definitive answer.  That is why I ask for a specific verse.  The simply is none.  Therefore it falls into the relm of opinion.  IMO That was a special age with special powers and miracles to establish Jesus as the Son of God and the apostles as His disciples.  That does not rule out miracles or other great works of God today.

Lively:  Love in the chapter is put along side by side with what will remain and what will be done away with...  Love remains, something else will not... what will not remain... spiritual gifts...   when will they be done away with?  When that which is perfect is come.  Such is speaking of the full revelation of Jesus Christ... his written word.  Ephesians 4 bears it out.

[yogi bear]

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love
Eph 4:13-16 (KJV)

Looks like Paul told the Ephesians the same as he told the Corinthians so read the two together and Ephesians answer the question of that which is perfect in Paul's own words he tells you if you read the letter to the Ephesians