Does the CoC lean more toward the Catholic tradition or the Protestant tradition

[marc]

Protestant.  It's not even close, although I have run into people tryng to slander the Church of Christ by calling them "Little Catholics" (based on the "One True Church" stance), the tradition is informed by Presbyterian, Baptist, Enlightenment thought, and a few odds and ends, with not much real Catholicism included.

btw, the idea that the Church of Christ does not believe that one is not truly saved in this life is blatantly untrue. I suppose that you could argue that if one believes that  you could lose all your money that means that you don't truly have any money, but that would be a somewhat loony argument. 

I could argue that with you, then, till the sun goes down(about not being saved in this life).  I was drenched in it in the cofC, so you certainly will not be able to lecture me about it.  I listened to sermons on that incessantly.  The only thing you could be assured of was to cock your head to the side and backward constantly looking over your shoulder for that sneak attack that would lose what little you truly had of your salvation to begin with.

And, of course, watching out for that mugger on the street means you don't really have any money...makes sense to me.

Seems people always like to cast things they leave in the worst possible light.

Me, I was baptized in '73, and I've never heard that we're not saved in this life.  Early on, some said we couldn't know for sure, but that went out of fashion where I live over 30 years ago.

[Jimmy]

Having grown up in the cofC and now looking back on it, it is my opinion that the similarities between the two (cofC and catholicism) are striking.  The "sacraments" are fewer in number (water baptism, Lord's supper, attendance at all services vs attendance at Mass), but seem to function very similarly in their theologic construct, that is that they are an essential part of the salvational "process".  Both believe that one is not truly saved in this life.  There are many parallels that could be drawn between the two and discussed, ISTM.  I believe there are far more similarities than differences because the underlying grids of their respective soteriologies are so similar.

There are many things that both catholics and the ICC/CoC have in common.  Both believe that God is the Creator and Sustainer of our world.  Both believe that God, the three in one triune God, is omniscience, omnipotent, and omnipresent.  Both believe that God the Son is our Lord and savior; that through the incarnation lived died and rose again as our savior; was fully human and fully divine.  We both believe that God is ready, willing and able to save anyone who obeys the Gospel.  We both believe the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity, lives in us; that we have been baptized in , indwelled with, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.  We both believe in the resurrection of the Saints who have died and the gathering of all resurrected and living saints at Jesus second coming,  Both believe in the eternal condemnation of the wicked.  On and on.

We in the ICC/CoC generally are not taught about "sacraments".  That is a word seldom heard in the CoC.  We do not believe in baptismal regeneration.  We believe, generally, that one is saved upon hearing, believing, repenting, being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.  We believe that we must live a life of obedience.  We believe that it is important to strive to live a life according to the will of God.  We generally believe that we are saved, but we also believe that one can lose that salvation.

However, the one of the big differences between the ICC/CoC is that we in the ICC/CoC generally do not believe in the concept of original sin.  The concept of original sin, or total depravity, drives a good bit of the belief differences between the ICC/CoC and catholics.  In that sense, because much of the protestant community, including the reformed protestants, are one on one with the Catholics on this, and is the reason for most of the differences between the ICC/CoC and the others who post here for example.

So I am thankful for the similarities that are there and I am dishearted by the differences where the catholics and much of the protestant community, including the reformed protestant community,  have wandered from the Biblical truths.

The interesting thing in the question posed by the OP is that the ICC/CoC generally will not lean toward any "tradition", seeking instead to rely as completely as possible on the Biblical record.  I think most of those "traditions" both catholic and protestant are the major source of departures from the Biblical record and the biggest source of disunity found within Christendom.

[James.]

Having grown up in the cofC and now looking back on it, it is my opinion that the similarities between the two (cofC and catholicism) are striking.  The "sacraments" are fewer in number (water baptism, Lord's supper, attendance at all services vs attendance at Mass), but seem to function very similarly in their theologic construct, that is that they are an essential part of the salvational "process".  Both believe that one is not truly saved in this life.  There are many parallels that could be drawn between the two and discussed, ISTM.  I believe there are far more similarities than differences because the underlying grids of their respective soteriologies are so similar.

Wow, I didn't expect this answer.  Interesting indeed.

Broach,

Haven't you ever listened to Catholics who used to be in a church of Christ?  You can hear their interviews online on the catholic network (ETWN?, Bruce Sullivan, etc.), anyway, without exception, those I have heard said the transition was seamless.

Yes, but I've heard the same from Pentecostals, Baptists, Episcopals, etc. on the Journey Home, so that may not speak the volumes you think it does.

[James.]

Protestant.  It's not even close, although I have run into people tryng to slander the Church of Christ by calling them "Little Catholics" (based on the "One True Church" stance), the tradition is informed by Presbyterian, Baptist, Enlightenment thought, and a few odds and ends, with not much real Catholicism included.

btw, the idea that the Church of Christ does not believe that one is not truly saved in this life is blatantly untrue. I suppose that you could argue that if one believes that  you could lose all your money that means that you don't truly have any money, but that would be a somewhat loony argument. 

I could argue that with you, then, till the sun goes down(about not being saved in this life).  I was drenched in it in the cofC, so you certainly will not be able to lecture me about it.  I listened to sermons on that incessantly.  The only thing you could be assured of was to cock your head to the side and backward constantly looking over your shoulder for that sneak attack that would lose what little you truly had of your salvation to begin with.

And, of course, watching out for that mugger on the street means you don't really have any money...makes sense to me.

Seems people always like to cast things they leave in the worst possible light.

Me, I was baptized in '73, and I've never heard that we're not saved in this life.  Early on, some said we couldn't know for sure, but that went out of fashion where I live over 30 years ago.

Exactly.

[James.]

Does the CoC lean more toward the Catholic tradition or the Protestant tradition?  Does it lean more toward faith + works and being saved through the sacrements (Cartholicism) or being saved by grace through faith (Protestantism)?  I'm just curious.

Spurly, do you consider your own fellowship to be more Protestant or Catholic?  I ask, because several people I know have worshiped for years on "both sides of the keyboard" as Knowles likes to say, and they say that beyond IM and some minor differences that the ICC/CoC and the mainstream CoC are 99% alike.  And I'm not talking about people like myself who've only visited and gotten that impression, I'm talking people who've spent upwards of 20 years on both sides, some are ministers in the ICC/CoC, for that matter.

[Serenity432001]

Does the CoC lean more toward the Catholic tradition or the Protestant tradition?  Does it lean more toward faith + works and being saved through the sacrements (Cartholicism) or being saved by grace through faith (Protestantism)?  I'm just curious.

It depends on which "branch" or "congregation" of the cofc you are talking about.  I didn't realize we had that in common with the catholics untill the jewish mother thread.  IOW, evidently, there are as many different belief systems in the catholic church as there are in the cofc

[James.]

I'd read that thread with a grain of salt if it made you think CoC and RCC baptism are alike.  One is the baptism of a believer trusting in God for grace, the other can be done without the baptizee even knowing what's going on, and not yet having belief at all.  Two very different things indeed.

Of course, that makes the CofC equally different from some Protestant groups as well, who also practice paedobaptism sacramentally.

[Serenity432001]

I'd read that thread with a grain of salt if it made you think CoC and RCC baptism are alike.  One is the baptism of a believer trusting in God for grace, the other can be done without the baptizee even knowing what's going on, and not yet having belief at all.  Two very different things indeed.

Of course, that makes the CofC equally different from some Protestant groups as well, who also practice paedobaptism sacramentally.

You must have misunderstood me.  I was just talking about the fact that there are as many catholics who disagree about what the catholics believe in as there are cofcers who disagree about what they believe.

I'm clueless to what you are talking about as far as the baptism thing.

[James.]

Sorry about that, Serenity.  I was following the line from the OP about being saved by grace versus works, so I assumed you were coming from the part (there are many) of the other thread that went there. 

 

[OkiMar]

Does the CoC lean more toward the Catholic tradition or the Protestant tradition?  Does it lean more toward faith + works and being saved through the sacrements (Cartholicism) or being saved by grace through faith (Protestantism)?  I'm just curious.

Members of churches of Christ share some theological points with both Catholicism and Protestantism, yet they also reject several others; however, I would say that we are "more closely aligned" with protestants. 

[Bocephus]

Does the CoC lean more toward the Catholic tradition or the Protestant tradition?  Does it lean more toward faith + works and being saved through the sacrements (Cartholicism) or being saved by grace through faith (Protestantism)?  I'm just curious.

Members of churches of Christ share some theological points with both Catholicism and Protestantism, yet they also reject several others; however, I would say that we are "more closely aligned" with protestants. 

Technically, The CofC would be considered Protestants, and generically Baptists.

[da525382]

Protestant.  It's not even close, although I have run into people tryng to slander the Church of Christ by calling them "Little Catholics" (based on the "One True Church" stance), the tradition is informed by Presbyterian, Baptist, Enlightenment thought, and a few odds and ends, with not much real Catholicism included.

btw, the idea that the Church of Christ does not believe that one is not truly saved in this life is blatantly untrue. I suppose that you could argue that if one believes that  you could lose all your money that means that you don't truly have any money, but that would be a somewhat loony argument. 

I could argue that with you, then, till the sun goes down(about not being saved in this life).  I was drenched in it in the cofC, so you certainly will not be able to lecture me about it.  I listened to sermons on that incessantly.  The only thing you could be assured of was to cock your head to the side and backward constantly looking over your shoulder for that sneak attack that would lose what little you truly had of your salvation to begin with.

And, of course, watching out for that mugger on the street means you don't really have any money...makes sense to me.

Seems people always like to cast things they leave in the worst possible light.

Me, I was baptized in '73, and I've never heard that we're not saved in this life.  Early on, some said we couldn't know for sure, but that went out of fashion where I live over 30 years ago.

Then good for you Marc.  I was baptized in 1965 in the tradition I described, I am glad you were not.  Your experience by far is not everyone's, however.

And when you say:

And, of course, watching out for that mugger on the street means you don't really have any money...makes sense to me.

I couldn't agree with you more, it made no sense to me, either, that's one reason I left, obviously.

[da525382]

Having grown up in the cofC and now looking back on it, it is my opinion that the similarities between the two (cofC and catholicism) are striking.  The "sacraments" are fewer in number (water baptism, Lord's supper, attendance at all services vs attendance at Mass), but seem to function very similarly in their theologic construct, that is that they are an essential part of the salvational "process".  Both believe that one is not truly saved in this life.  There are many parallels that could be drawn between the two and discussed, ISTM.  I believe there are far more similarities than differences because the underlying grids of their respective soteriologies are so similar.

Wow, I didn't expect this answer.  Interesting indeed.

Broach,

Haven't you ever listened to Catholics who used to be in a church of Christ?  You can hear their interviews online on the catholic network (ETWN?, Bruce Sullivan, etc.), anyway, without exception, those I have heard said the transition was seamless.

Yes, but I've heard the same from Pentecostals, Baptists, Episcopals, etc. on the Journey Home, so that may not speak the volumes you think it does.

But his question related only to those becoming Catholic and that was my response, and my response said absolutely nothing of "volumes".  Of course there are other cofC people that go to every kind of group and belief out there, I'm sure, that's a given.  Some I know have become Jewish. My point was that those I have known who have become catholic have indicated how very similar cofC theology (not referencing individual teachings of the two traditions) was to many of the basic theological underpinnings of catholicism.

[yogi bear]

Ok here is my take on it.

It does not matter which denomination you are looking at all will have some similarity to the others. If they don't then they are not following the bible teaching at all.  In the same token all will have differences because of mans interpretation of the word coupled with what they have been taught as to how they come to that interpretation. So in short yes the CoC has similarities with the catholic as well as Baptist Methodist Lutherans Pentecostals etc,-----

[blituri]

    Firstly, the Church was called The Church of Christ centuries before the Catholics existed primarily as a creature of Constantine: even then there was no monolithic institution.

    Died C. 110 Ignatius to the Ephesians
    And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavour to corrupt the Church of Christ, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, "being waxen fat," and "become gross," sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell.

    In like manner, every one that has received from God the power of distinguishing, and yet follows an unskilful shepherd, and receives a false opinion for the truth, shall be punished.

    "What communion hath light with darkness? or Christ with Belial? Or what portion hath he that believeth with an infidel? or the temple of God with idols? " And in like manner say I, what communion hath truth with falsehood? or righteousness with unrighteousness? or true doctrine with that which is false?

Not too ecumenical, huh:

    Of Jesus, He wrote:

    He was born and baptized, that by His passion He might purify the water.
    He was born and was baptized by John, that He might ratify the institution committed to that prophet.

Martin Luther said that Jesus put the power in the water. That was just as easy as God putting Himself into a body made up of 85% water.

    To fulfil all righteousness, means that Jesus "fully preached" baptism and FILLED IT FULL of significance as prophesied by Isaiah and Malachi used by Mark to prove baptism.

    THE CATHOLICS

    Based on the concept of Original sin, the Catholics splashed a bit of water on infants and did so even in the womb if there was danger in giving birth.

    It was fatal to sin AFTER one's adult baptism and they put it off to a deathbead ritual. Catholics go to Confession and the priests prescribes penances or WORKS which you must perform to work FOR the remission of sins: it might be a fine or denial of communion.  In early England, confession of lust could get you excluded for three years.

    Believer's Baptism is also a pagan form where you are baptized BECAUSE you have perfected yourself. While they confuse justification with salvation, their being saved by faith does not get you into fellowship with a Baptist church: you must be taught, prove that you are FIT to participate, get voted on and THEN baptized.  A Baptist friend says that they are not quite as vocal about that as they used to be.

    Therefore, the baptism of the Church of Christ has nothing in common with either Catholic or Baptist baptism: it finds clear authority in prophecy, the example and command of Jesus, all of the Bible and the Church of Christ fully documented for several centuries. Being driven underground did not cause The Church of Christ to evaporate.

    When John Calvin spoke of being baptized to enter the church he meant exactly what we mean: in Acts those who were being baptized and were being saved were ADDED to The Church of Christ by Christ Himself: no human institute has the authority to do that and most Baptists are accepting that.

With Catholics the priests are the mediators and the Pope is the Vicar of Christ or Christ Himself on earth.  Apostate churches of Christ CLAIM that the musical performers can lead you into the presence of God and claim the role Jesus died for: those tiny few SECTARIANS and the Pope thought that by Jubilee Y2K, the church of Christ as a "daughter" would rejoin the "Mother."