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Author Topic: Dropping church of Christ from our title?  (Read 11542 times)

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Offline Nevertheless

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #35 on: Thu Feb 05, 2004 - 15:01:40 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The visiting man said that we were bound for hell because of it... [/quote]


 :cry:


That is SO sad.


 :cry:

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #35 on: Thu Feb 05, 2004 - 15:01:40 »

Offline janine

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Feb 07, 2004 - 15:37:30 »
Oh, Lord...

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Feb 07, 2004 - 15:37:30 »

boringoldguy

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Feb 09, 2004 - 11:36:10 »
Many of our institutions, such as Children's Homes, Universities, etc. require that certain employees be members of a Church of Christ.   I think all require that Board Members be members of a Church of Christ.     So what is the effect if a congregation drops \"Church of Christ\" from its name?

Is that a reason not to change names?

Offline winky

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« Reply #38 on: Mon Feb 09, 2004 - 14:07:28 »
Good point, BOG. It should at least be a consideration, especially if you know it will affect a good number of your members.

With Oak Hills I heard (second hand) that there is a kind of loophole. They didn't change their official name, as in the name they incorporated under. It's still Oak Hills Church of Christ.  They just changed the name on the sign (and probably on printed materials). SO, technically, for legal purposes and such their members do still attend a Church of Christ.

I wonder if it's a similar situation at Woodmont Hills. Anyone know? I'm assuming some of their members teach at Lipscomb and are required to be CoC.

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« Reply #38 on: Mon Feb 09, 2004 - 14:07:28 »

boringoldguy

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« Reply #39 on: Mon Feb 09, 2004 - 16:57:08 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (winky @ Feb. 09 2004,2:07)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]SO, technically, for legal purposes and such their members do still attend a Church of Christ.[/quote]
You don't mean they'd engage in legalism, do you?

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Feb 09, 2004 - 16:57:08 »



Offline Nelta

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #40 on: Mon Feb 09, 2004 - 18:26:09 »
:frowning:

First off the word \"church\" is a mistranslation of the ekklesia and should not be used by anyone.  King James wanted that left in his translation because he was the head of the institution of religion. Next, to put Christ's title on a Church building or on a SOF is using His title in vain.  

Nelta

Offline Perry from the COCN Board

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« Reply #41 on: Mon Feb 09, 2004 - 20:12:53 »
Nelta
So what about wearing the name Christian?  If putting the words \"church of Christ\" on the sign out front is using it in vain, then why do we label ourselves Christian at all?

Offline mike

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« Reply #42 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 10:21:07 »
(bog @ Feb. 9, 2004 4:57)
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]You don't mean they'd engage in legalism, do you? [/quote]

No, but they might want to protect their brothers and sisters from being victimized by others who may still be struggling with legalism.


Mike

boringoldguy

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« Reply #43 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 11:14:40 »
Oh, I see.

So I guess that the trustees of these institutions, who've been entrusted with funds by people who expect them to adhere to certain doctrinal viewpoints, are struggling with legalism when they attempt to honor that trust, but people who have abandoned those doctrinal viewpoints but want to hold onto their position by means of what Wendy describes as a loophole are being \"victimized.\"

I'm glad for that explanation.

Offline winky

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« Reply #44 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 11:57:48 »
BOG,

Abandoning doctrinal viewpoints and changing the SOF are two very different things.

Although I'm not entirely clear on the definition of legalism, judging a person's doctrinal soundness by the SOF sounds like it could fall into that category.

Whether I describe it as a loophole or a technicality or whatever, the fact is that Oak Hills or whoever uses that fact isn't the one necessitating the technicalities. Are they catering to it? Maybe. But it's not quite the same, and I think you know that.

I think this touches on an interesting subject though. It's common practice for CoC institutions such as universities and children's homes and the like to require CoC membership of its trustees or employees or whatever. But how effective is that when each CoC is autonomous? I mean think about the most liberal CoC you can think of and the most conservative. They probably have way more doctrinal differences than two churches of different denominations. So, what's the purpose? Why not just have doctrinal requirements instead of church name requirements? Say, \"we are only going to employ people who believe these things: x, x, x,\" and not even worry about the name of the church?  It seems like that would work in favor of both the most \"conservative\" and the most \"liberal\" groups.

Wendy

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #45 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 12:16:53 »
Good points, Wendy. I think that those who support institutions making such administrative requirements should really think twice about supporting them... Especially if they are a university. It is one thing for them to ask, out of conviction from their understanding of Scripture, if a person believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and if they have been baptized in his name, for the remission of sins... It is quite another to require them to be a member of a church with a sign-out-front reading \"Church of Christ\". The former seems born of Scriptural conviction, the latter sectarianism.

Offline winky

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« Reply #46 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 13:24:16 »
I don't know that I would advocate not supporting institutions that do that; that might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  There's never going to be an institution that does everything exactly the way I think is best. There are lots of worthwhile, yet imperfect, Christian institutions.

However, I do think this is an area that might need some re-thinking and perhaps we can encourage and spark change in policy in this area. Can anyone share a downside to being based on certain theological principles rather than on a certain \"brand\" of church?

Offline Cliftyman

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« Reply #47 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 14:18:37 »
Requiring people in certain job positions to wear the name of a \"church\" organization or have a \"membership\" at a certain congregation.

That to me is worthless.  Our names mean nothing.  Our actions in our lives mean everything.  Just because someone calls someone a sinner doesn't mean they are, likewise just because someone calls someone a Christian doesn't mean they are......

It is notable to try and form your ranks with Christians, there is nothing wrong with that, but to think thats the absolute path to perfection is a fallacy.....

I don't know why I thought about it but this reminded me of something.....

We were discussing attending \"The Passion\" on the 25th when it comes out, in our men's bible study group.  One of the group said that a certain congregation had rented out the theater so that \"only Christians\" or their friends could be there so there \"wouldn't be any heckling\".

To me that was utterly pathetic.  I would welcome some persecution nowadays, and if our goal is to escape it we may be possibly escaping our duties as Christians......

To me wearing a name as the utmost descriptive as who we are is the same to me.  Someone asks you where you go, \"I go to this \"church\"\", someone asks you what you believe, \"we believe\", \"our church believes\"\"

Friends if we don't escape this fallacy in our thinking we will never be together as Christians.  Christ preached unity, Christ prayed for unity, so why is it we cannot convince ourselves that it is important?

boringoldguy

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« Reply #48 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 15:19:54 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (winky @ Feb. 10 2004,11:57)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Although I'm not entirely clear on the definition of legalism, judging a person's doctrinal soundness by the SOF sounds like it could fall into that category.[/quote]
I'm talking about maintaining the doctrinal soundness of the institution, and although the requirement that certain posistions be filled by members of a Church of Christ is not terribly effective, that is the reason that institutions adopted those requirements.    It's a way of maintaining faith with the founders and supporters who expect the institution to take a particular doctrinal stand.

Since you have named Oak Hills as a case in point, I'll discuss them.  The statement about baptism on their website departs from traditional CofC thought on the subject;  the use of instrumental music in worship departs from traditional CofC practice, and they have made a public announcement that they are no longer to be called a \"Church of Christ.\"   If these statements and practices reflect the beliefs of the members, then there has been a doctrinal change.  

If in fact these folks have changed their doctrine, then why would they want a \"loophole\" that lets them be counted as a Church of Christ?   Apparantly, so they can continue to enjoy some benefit that comes from being associated with the Churches of Christ.  But wait!  They said the name kept them from fulfilling their mission.

Things just get curiouser and curiouser.

Kidding aside -it seems to me that if you knew you got your position based in part upon adherence to a particular view and then you changed your view, resignation would be the honorable course.   But perhaps others don't see things that way.

Offline coachk

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« Reply #49 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 15:55:19 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Kidding aside -it seems to me that if you knew you got your position based in part upon adherence to a particular view and then you changed your view, resignation would be the honorable course. [/quote]

I had a friend lose her job at a Christian high school because she left the mainstream CoC and went to a Bible church with almost identical beliefs (with the exception of a few \"major\" issues).  She didn't try to hide, though.  She went to the administration and told them.  So they fired her.  This was, if I remember correctly, in the middle of the school year, just before or after Christmas.

Two others at the same school who were given an ultimatum - either leave your (very progressive CoC) church, or find a new job next school year.  For some they might just walk away.  These 2 happened to be married, so this was their entire income - they couldn't really afford to both lose their jobs at the same time.  They ended up leaving their church to keep their jobs.  

Where is the line be drawn?  If someone no longer believes that instrumental music is a sin, will they lose their job?  Or do they have to attend a church that uses IM before they are shown the door?  What is the list of accepted (or unaccepted) beliefs at these schools?  And are they all made known ahead of time?  

As I said, one couple was attending a CoC, but just not one the administration accepted as \"faithful\", I suppose.

Offline Skip

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« Reply #50 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 16:06:17 »
Ironic that this conversation should come full-circle like this. I made observations similar to BOG's back on page three of the thread, noting that churches drop or minimize the coC name on the front, but position themselves in the coC section of the phone book and, apparently, leave the coC name in the legal papers.

Such fence-straddling is difficult to explain in \"nice\" terms. On the one hand, it is obviously a slap in the face of the traditional coC. And while the name “coC

Offline winky

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« Reply #51 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 16:13:44 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (boringoldguy @ Feb. 10 2004,3:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Although I'm not entirely clear on the definition of legalism, judging a person's doctrinal soundness by the SOF sounds like it could fall into that category.[/quote]
I'm talking about maintaining the doctrinal soundness of the institution, and although the requirement that certain posistions be filled by members of a Church of Christ is not terribly effective, that is the reason that institutions adopted those requirements.    It's a way of maintaining faith with the founders and supporters who expect the institution to take a particular doctrinal stand.

Since you have named Oak Hills as a case in point, I'll discuss them.  The statement about baptism on their website departs from traditional CofC thought on the subject;  the use of instrumental music in worship departs from traditional CofC practice, and they have made a public announcement that they are no longer to be called a \"Church of Christ.\"   If these statements and practices reflect the beliefs of the members, then there has been a doctrinal change.  

If in fact these folks have changed their doctrine, then why would they want a \"loophole\" that lets them be counted as a Church of Christ?   Apparantly, so they can continue to enjoy some benefit that comes from being associated with the Churches of Christ.  But wait!  They said the name kept them from fulfilling their mission.

Things just get curiouser and curiouser.

Kidding aside -it seems to me that if you knew you got your position based in part upon adherence to a particular view and then you changed your view, resignation would be the honorable course.   But perhaps others don't see things that way.[/quote]
But my point is that they should investigate doctrinal soundness separate from the name of the church.

Apparently, many members of Oak Hills still consider their church to be similar to or in some ways affiliated with Churches of Christ, even if they have a different name. Otherwise, this whole thing wouldn't be an issue. Please remember that Oak Hills never said \"We are now renouncing our affiliation with the CoC\". They said that they were changing the name. What I believe it now says on their sign is \"Oak Hills Church\" and then underneath \"A Christ-centered family\". So really the words church and Christ are all there, just rearranged!

Now, if you want to assert that they have broken off with the CoC because of their teachings/doctrine fine. But you'd have to assert the same thing about many churches that do have CoC on their sign as well, so that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that an institution would do well to base their decisions on that, rather than the name. Because otherwise, they may be excluding people who are very similar to their beliefs and including people who are widely divergent.  

Besides, who decides what's the traditional teachings?  Since CoCs have always been autonomous, there's always been variations on almost every point of doctrine. And what \"most\" churches do varies from time period to time period and in geographic regions.

Wendy

Offline winky

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« Reply #52 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 16:18:33 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And while the name ?coC? supposedly undermines their mission while on the sign out front, it apparently does not undermine on the legal papers and in the phone book?! [/quote]

Yes! That seems logical to me! They said the name CoC undermines their credibility with the lost, with seekers, etc. But I didn't get the impression they WANTED to offend or break away from the CoC itself (although they may have known that might be an unfortunate side effect. still, not their main purpose). So, where do most seekers/non-churched run into their church? Driving by it and seeing the sign! But where do most already-Christian CoC people who are visiting or moved to the area look for a church? In the phone book under CoC! And obviously, unbelievers aren't going to go look up their legal name. So if it helps keep them still in connection with the CoC in a positive way, why not leave it?

boringoldguy

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« Reply #53 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 17:39:25 »
I guess it depends upon what all those lost and seekers who would have been put off by the name Church of Christ will think when they find out, somewhere down the road, that they joined a Church of Christ.

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #54 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 18:38:45 »
Correct me if I'm wrong... But from reading this discussion, and following its recent evolution, it doesn't appear that anyone on this thread would make the case that the \"Church of Christ\" is not a denomination.

Offline Rocketman

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« Reply #55 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 20:21:53 »
I've followed this thread with interest.  I had weeks earlier followed the discussion on Oak Hills and the name change as well.  If I recall correctly there were some who argued that there was no evidence that the name cofc had any effect, it didnt matter.  I didnt agree with their thinking, but didnt have any specific experiences myself where it had mattered.

That all changed recently, we had a family who visited our mainstream cofc congregation for about 2 months.  They really enjoyed it and were/are a great family. However, during their Christmas travels when they told friends and family they were visiting a cofc, they got a lot of info about \"what the cofc believes.\"  Essentially, all the stereotypes of the far right harsh type.  They no longer attend our church after getting back from this trip.  Their thinking is, \"we know yall dont believe all those things, but we dont want to have to explain that to all our friends/family/people we meet that we arent like that.\"   My family is still friends with that family and will continue to be, but the whole experience really jolted me.  In fact it was quite devastating for a while to me because I cant change those things really.   They enjoyed a lot about us: Sunday school class, Sunday night small group, but we couldnt overcome the reputation of some of \"our own.\"

I dont know where this fits into this thread, but wanted to share one experience.  I'm sure the usual suspects will discount this with their tired old arguments while others will see the great sadness in this experience.
RM

Offline James Sterling

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« Reply #56 on: Tue Feb 10, 2004 - 20:35:52 »
We have CoC loud and clear on the sign in front of the congregation.  

But this causes tremendous grief in some circumstances.

Because of projection screens, a praise team, hand-raising, clapping, women speaking out, etc., etc., we have had a number of CoC visitors storm out of services - scratching their name out of the guest log on the way out.

Moreover, other CoC's in town publish a full page ad once a year called 'What to Expect When You Visit the Church of Christ.'  When we did not participate in the costs of the ad last year because we do not agree with everything written in it.  They stuck us in it anyway.  It caused more problems for some who read it and saw what we did differently.  

All said - CoC carries a specific denominational meaning with it now.  And if you are not towing the party line, you are asking for trouble if the sign says so.  Try putting a Baptist sign out front and worshiping like Pentecostals - people expect 'something' when they see a certain sign.

But it is regional - when we planted a congregation on the East Coast, people thought we were the 'Boston Movement' they had read about and seen on TV (all negative reviews). :(

Rocketman - we recently had visitors who moved in and formerly attended a Bible church.  They were very excited about what they saw and heard - that is until they did some web research on what the CoC stood for.  I can't get his words out of my head - 'it said you speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where the Bible is silent; and then it says Ephesians 5:19 condemns instrumental worship.  Isn't that hypocritical?'   :cry:

Offline Skip

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« Reply #57 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 08:02:04 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Correct me if I'm wrong... But from reading this discussion, and following its recent evolution, it doesn't appear that anyone on this thread would make the case that the \"Church of Christ\" is not a denomination.[/quote]
Depends on your definition of \"denomination\" ;)

From M-W online, definition 4 (the only one referring to a \"religious\" body):
a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body

By the dictionary definition the coC is not a denomination, since it has no uniting legal/adminstrative body, but rather is composed of autonomous congregations. In theory they're united by doctrine. In practice, they are rarely if ever united by administration. (An aside - that's another unusual thing about the Lucato \"satellite\" church idea, as they are then technically their own little denomination in the administrative sense!)

Otherwise congregations like Oak Hills and Woodmont Hills couldn't just up-and-change their sign; at least not without permission from the overall administration. Kind of like the US Episcopalian schism - the so-called 'conservatives' are loathe to openly split because their property belongs to the Church, not the congregation. And in my experience with the Catholic denomination, since the administration defines the worship practices, there are a finite set of things you'll find, while in the coC you can find a wide range of surprises.

But I usually find that in conversations like this there are many who are quite anxious to strip the \"non-denominational\" tag from the coC (no matter what the dictionary might say)!

Offline James Sterling

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« Reply #58 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 08:19:25 »
According to Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (which is the hallmark for these types of definitions among theologians) in the beginning of the second paragraph in the near one page definition of the word 'denomination' it is 'any group that distinguishes itself by a name.'  

That pretty much throws the door wide open I'd say.

Additionally, the vast majority of CoCers do have a form of governing hierarchies and conventions - show me what publications and lectureships a man reads and attends and I'll show you what administration he is under - unless he is particularly independent, even of his local leadership.

Offline Skip

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« Reply #59 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 08:22:48 »
RM,
James S,

I grew up in an instrumental coC in the Midwest.
\"Church of Christ\" on the SOF.
Same name. Similar doctrine.
Are they part of the \"coC denomination\", or not?
Are they their own denomination?
If you have the coC name on the sign, does that make you a part of the \"denomination\"?
If not, what about the “legal loophole

Offline Skip

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« Reply #60 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 08:40:35 »
James S.,

The online version of Baker at Crosswalk.com doesn't contain an entry for \"denomination\".
Though the definition is similar to the M-W definition 3. As I pointed out in my post above, the name doesn't guarantee the contents if there is no uniting heirarchy.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Additionally, the vast majority of CoCers do have a form of governing hierarchies and conventions - show me what publications and lectureships a man reads and attends and I'll show you what administration he is under - unless he is particularly independent, even of his local leadership.[/quote]
In the last six months the only coC publications I've read were right here at the G-C web site.
What administration am I under?  :D

Additionally, your very quote shows that there is no uniformity required by the coC.
And even with a single congregation the elders and preacher(s) have a variety of different \"inputs\".

--Skip

Offline Bon Voyage

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« Reply #61 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 08:40:41 »
Nope.  Not a surprise.

Offline James Sterling

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« Reply #62 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 08:44:23 »
That's the point I have been attempting to make in the most confusing way ??? !!  A denomination relative to understanding and locale.  The SOF seems to either mean everything or nothing - two extremes.  

For example; according to Mac Lynn's 1994 edition of Churches of Christ in the United States, the IOCC were dropped from the listings.  Yet many still carried the name CoC.  Prior to that was the dropping of all instrumental congregations.  There is even consideration of removing any congregation that does ont have the name CoC somewhere within the name on the SOF.

So in one case, it doesn't matter what the name says, rather what the doctrine is (IOCC).  And in the other case it is more of a concern for what the name says as opposed to what is actually being taught and adhered to. :bangingheadagainstwall:

It all comes back to what the person walking through the front door is bringing in with them.  I was raised in the most conservative veins of the CoC.  Yet when I unwittingly walked in an instrumental CoC on the East Coast while on a business trip, I didn't flip and storm out when the piano struck up.  I even stuck around and talked for a while, telling them I had never been in an instrumental worship before.  

It's not our church (assembly).  It's His.  I get all sorts of mail with my name on it - not just one kind.  I have all sorts of relationships with different people - not just one kind.  Why can't there continue to be the Corinths, Ephesus', Thessalonicians, Colossae's, and Romans and yet be acceptable?

Offline Skip

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #63 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 10:41:17 »
There is one important difference between modern times and NT times.

Take all the signs off all the buildings and just hang up a sign that says, \"Church\".

Walk into one at random and you may end up in a Catholic Mass, or a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness assembly, or any of a range of Protestant or Reformation movement churches, or a \"new\" church started last week by a local.
That, IMO, is not good.

Signs are informational.
When I grab a can of Green Beans at the store, I expect Green Beans when I open it and dump it in the pot.
The denominational groups have the advantage of much more uniformity; something that the coC does not enjoy.
Muddling the coC signs with \"Z St. Family, a church of Christ\", kind of helps in that it's a message not to expect mainline coC.
But on the other hand, it confuses in the sense of \"Well, what is it\"? (IMO, they really don't know yet, since a split is not yet complete, and they are not ready to give up the \"benefits of membership\", so to speak.)
It's especially confusing in the case of those who try to keep one foot in the coC and the other foot outside...

Does anyone deal with an Oak Hills or Woodmont Hills person(s) firsthand?
What do the rank-and-file say of themselves?
Do they avoid mention of the coC entirely, or only in certain company, or what?

--Skip

Offline spurly

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #64 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 10:47:20 »
We have dropped the word \"Christian\" from our church name.  Now we are simply known as \"Antioch Church\".  I think all churches should do the same thing.

Kevin

Offline Cliftyman

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #65 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 11:57:07 »
After all of this discussion one thing rings true and loud in my mind.........


QUIT SHOWING WHO YOU ARE BY YOUR NAME OR YOUR SIGN!!!!

Our actions and love should demonstrate who we are regardless and in any situation.

I've heard multiple times how we wouldn't know who to choose to worship with if they didn't have a sign.  Do you want to worship with a group of people if their Christian impact is so little that you don't even KNOW WHO THEY ARE??

Christian's are supposed to be the salt of the Earth.... we are the ones who work in a subtle, secret manner that has earth-shattering consequences......

Right now I am discussing spiritual issues with about three atheists on another board and do you know the major thing that has made them the way they are?

Christians without love. (in other words Christians in name but not in deed).  Everytime they abusively reference a Christian in one of their diatribes it is the one's who \"do what they think is right so they won't burn in hell\", \"have their faith and if you don't have it your out of luck\", ETC, ETC, ETC.....

Christians (in name but not love) are turning a blind eye to this world.  We are worshipping in buildings of stone and wood instead of worshipping in the only temple our Lord God gave us to worship in (our bodies).

Our bodies are mobile and our deeds proclaim the love of Christ, our buildings are stuck, mired down and have no identity our life.

Most non-believers believe the Church is the building down the road and its because NEARLY EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, at one time in our lives has abused the name of the single greatest organization on this Earth, the bride of Christ and turned it into a non-mobile, unchanging worthless institution.

We should all be ashamed, whether we have been part of this, or we should share the blame with our brothers and sisters (even if they don't consider us to be brothers and sisters).

There is a war going on people and even though our \"religion\" (whatever that means) accounts for millions, we aren't doing our job.

We think that Christianity has to do with buildings, doctrines, names, places, persons........

Forget about what the folks in Antioch called the disciples.... we are disiciples of Christ, not Paul, not Peter, not anyone......

The rage inside of me is deplorable right now, but sometimes you just understand how Jesus felt when he threw those tables over.

IT IS ABOUT CHRIST! not doctrines, names, etc.,etc.,etc.

If you think that is too wishy-washy than you've missed the entire point and I'll be praying for you.

Offline s1n4m1n

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #66 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 12:12:21 »
I think it would be funny if eventually every church with a CHURCH OF CHRIST sign out front changes their sign to read \"Soandso Church - a church of Christ\", or something similar. Then 50 years from now there will be a big controversy about changing the sign from \"Soandso Church - a church of Christ\" to \"Soandso church of Christ\".

Ken

Offline Skip

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #67 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 12:57:06 »
I'm curious...

Spurly,
Cliftyman,

How do you choose where to worship when you travel?
Do you send your kids / youth group to all available VBS and church camps regardless of the \"brand\" of Christianity?
Are there any groups under the umbrella of Christianity that you recommend against associating with?
How do you distinguish Christians from non-Christians so that you can minister and fellowship with the Christians and preach and teach to the lost?
Could I walk into your assembly and be permitted to teach your class without regard to my doctrinal background?

(Personally, I find the sign useful if only to avoid certain groups who, for instance, openly deny the divinity of Christ.)

Spurly,

Does Antioch Church still list itself in the same church grouping in the Yellow Pages (presumably with the Christian Churches)?
Have your contacts with other churches changed in any way?
If you were associated with a denominational administrative structure, has the nature of that relationship changed or remained the same?

---

Anyone ever notice that Paul knew where and when to find the Jews meeting for worship when he was a missionary, and what to expect in their services?

In the Scriptures we never find Paul walking into, and participating in, Jewish or pagan places of worship unless he was going in to preach Christianity to the lost. In Galatians he called the sect of the circumcision, who were actively working among them, \"false brethren\" not fellow Christians.

I also seem to recall that the little fish symbol was (in the early church) a coded SOF by which Christians knew where Christians met to worship.

--Skip

Offline Cliftyman

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #68 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 12:57:38 »
Exactly!

Until we forget about the \"name\" alltogether, we are never going to escape this discussion......

It has nothing to do with a name, it has everything to do with what the name means....

Would the name Jesus, or Christ mean anything to us if the man that wore that name didn't raise from the dead?  If the man Jesus wouldn't have perform the miracles he did, showed the love he did, and died the death and rose again, that name would be just another name in history.....

So we as Christians should stop sulking beneath our names and titles.....

There is nothing wrong with \"Church of Christ\", \"Christians\", etc.... but obviously the name means some things to some people (this is either a false belief or a true one).....

It should be our duty to...
#1 find out why they believe it
#2 find out if their belief that what we do wrong is true
#3 if its false lovingly show them why it isn't, if its true we need to change, and that shouldn't be in name, but in deed.... (if we change to another name the falsehood of who we are remains the same in some cases)

Offline spurly

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #69 on: Wed Feb 11, 2004 - 15:28:21 »
Skip worte:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
I'm curious...

Spurly,
Cliftyman,

How do you choose where to worship when you travel?
Do you send your kids / youth group to all available VBS and church camps regardless of the \"brand\" of Christianity?[/quote]
[span style=\'color:blue\']When I travel I just try to find a group of Christians to worship with.  One time I was just watching television of a church service, and went to that one because they were a black service and I had never participated in a service where I was the minority.  Other times I have just gone down the road and decided to worship at a certain place based on the sign out front.  Other times a certain worship service was recommended.

I would send my students to almost any brand of Christian camp/ VBS etc.  The one I would be the most cautious about would be pentecostal because I have seen people of that stripe really pressure students to speak in tongues, etc.  But I would also encourage them to be like the Bereans with anything they learned.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/span][/span][/span]
Are there any groups under the umbrella of Christianity that you recommend against associating with?
[/quote]
Nope, they can associate with any Christian. I am a big believer in unity.  however I am more careful with the pentecostals (like I mentioned above).[/span][/span][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/span]
How do you distinguish Christians from non-Christians so that you can minister and fellowship with the Christians and preach and teach to the lost?
[/quote]
[span style=\'color:blue\']By their fruit you shall know them.[/span]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/span]Could I walk into your assembly and be permitted to teach your class without regard to my doctrinal background?[/quote][span style=\'color:blue\']Nope.  The elders would want you to agree with our basic theology (though not necessarily in all points).[/span]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/span](Personally, I find the sign useful if only to avoid certain groups who, for instance, openly deny the divinity of Christ.)

Spurly,

Does Antioch Church still list itself in the same church grouping in the Yellow Pages (presumably with the Christian Churches)?
Have your contacts with other churches changed in any way?
If you were associated with a denominational administrative structure, has the nature of that relationship changed or remained the same?
[/quote]
[span style=\'color:blue\']We are listed under several different headings in the yellow pages.  Our relationships with other churches have not changed much, we were pretty ecumenical before the name change.  We are an independent congregation, no hierarchy.[/span]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/span]
---

Anyone ever notice that Paul knew where and when to find the Jews meeting for worship when he was a missionary, and what to expect in their services?

In the Scriptures we never find Paul walking into, and participating in, Jewish or pagan places of worship unless he was going in to preach Christianity to the lost. In Galatians he called the sect of the circumcision, who were actively working among them, \"false brethren\" not fellow Christians.
[/quote]
[span style=\'color:blue\']I don't think anyone is suggesting worshipping with pagans, muslims, or people who are not followers of Yah-weh.[/span][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/span][/span]
I also seem to recall that the little fish symbol was (in the early church) a coded SOF by which Christians knew where Christians met to worship.

[/quote]
[span style=\'color:blue\'] It was used more to identify individuals than churches, as far as I know.[/span][/span]

 

     
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