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Author Topic: Dropping church of Christ from our title?  (Read 10410 times)

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Offline Skip

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2004, 08:25:09 AM »
Spurly, Clifty, or anyone...

What is the purpose of removing the SOF?

If unity is the objective, bear in mind that the lack of a SOF did not prevent the Catholic/ Orthodox split, or the Catholic/Protestant split of the Reformation.

Also note that these days the SOF is placed there by the people inside the building as a general indication of the doctrine of the people meeting there. When I see a sign in front of a church building that says \"Catholic Church\", I logically assume that the people meeting there placed the sign out front as an indication that Catholics meet inside and Catholic doctrine is taught inside. I fail to see the harm in such a notification.

The basic purpose of the SOF is probably at the root of why some in the mainline/traditional coC take the removal of coC from the SOF as a split from the coC. After all, if the Catholic Church down the road from me removed \"Catholic\" from the sign, I'd logically assume that Catholics didn't meet there anymore.
What, then, might one expect those in a coC to think when the coC in the next town takes coC off the sign?
I typically would think that it was a conscious choice of the people inside the building stating their new doctrine and direction, as opposed to, say, begin blown off by the wind...

In this area I see a number of church buildings with ambiguous names outside. Many of them have TV advertisements or print advertisements that show something of their worship practices and doctrines.
But, in the end, is telling me with an advertisement really any different than telling me with a SOF?

Being familiar with many different Christian groups, I could walk into most buildings and without speaking to anyone tell just from the decor and literature pretty much which \"heritage\" they come from. In fact, several can be guessed pretty closely from the outside, such as spotting a Virgin Mary statue outside the building, or if there are no windows in the building.

Why not save me the trouble and put it on a SOF?
Actually, by NOT putting it on the SOF, that alone tells me plenty...

--Skip

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2004, 08:25:09 AM »

Offline Gaylan

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2004, 08:49:34 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In fact, several can be guessed pretty closely from the outside, such as spotting a Virgin Mary statue outside the building, or if there are no windows in the building.[/quote]
Ok Skip, I'm going to let my dumbs hang out..... laugh if you must... :noworries:
I got the Virign Mary reference..that makes sense...

BUT.....
:thinking:
\"no windows in the building\"? ??  What does this tell me?
:thinking:

I have been designing buildings for most of my life, been on the design team for amoung other things 4 different \"church buildings\" of different \"denominations\" and a youth 180 building for another \"denomination\", and I am not aware of a rule about a certain group of believers not wanting windows in their building.

Have I missed something......

I hope I have not made a \"grave error\" on someone's building.....:doh:

Thanks for the information,
Gaylan

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2004, 08:49:34 AM »

Offline Cliftyman

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2004, 09:11:48 AM »
Very plain and simple Skip.

Because when you see that sign, you immediately assume that every single person in that congregation believes everything that the name on the sign says they do.....

That is not right.

and look this is already the assumption you have made.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Being familiar with many different Christian groups, I could walk into most buildings and without speaking to anyone tell just from the decor and literature pretty much which \"heritage\" they come from. In fact, several can be guessed pretty closely from the outside, such as spotting a Virgin Mary statue outside the building, or if there are no windows in the building.[/quote]

I attend a Christian Church congregation right now.... we have people from Catholic backgrounds, COC, Baptist, Methodist and even Jewish backgrounds, so here is one example where if you would have made an assumption, you would have been wrong

We are not to make judgements based on a group, we are to communicate with people individually.

Truthfully I don't think there is anything wrong with a sign, as long as we don't make those assumptions and judgements.

God doesn't grant our salvation as a group he grants it individually.  We should view people no different than God does.

Lets just try and not make assumptions and possibly folks might not want to take down a sign in the first place. :)

Offline Skip

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2004, 09:37:41 AM »
Gaylan,

The next time you drive by a Kingdom Hall, take a close look at the building...

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« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2004, 09:37:41 AM »

Offline winky

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« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2004, 09:41:50 AM »
I think Skip's point about our not having denominational heirarchy and established uniformity is key to this.

The thing is that with, say, Catholic churches, seeing \"Catholic\" on the sign will give you a much better read for what that church believes than seeing \"church of Christ\" on the sign, because the Catholics have a uniform set of beliefs outlined for them by their leaders that everyone is expected to accept. Although there may be some variation, it's not nearly what you see in the CoC because we don't have that denominational heirarchy that decides what each church will teach and practice.

SO, it's much easier in the CoC for a sign to become a hindrance to showing what the people inside that church really believe. If the only CoC you had ever been to was a one-cup, non-institutional, very conservative CoC, you would be wrong in assuming that the Oak Hills or Woodmont Hills CoCs were like that. And vice versa. Or, what if you had always thought the CoC was like the Boston Movement/ICOC? Such a huge range of beliefs and practice all with the CoC name on the outside.

In that kind of setting, I think it makes a little bit more sense to say \"you know what, this sign isn't always doing a good job of telling people who we really are\" (Note: not necessarily because they are no longer a CoC but maybe because they do not match up with some people's perceptions of the CoC).

Wendy

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2004, 09:41:50 AM »



Offline Gaylan

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2004, 09:42:28 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The next time you drive by a Kingdom Hall, take a close look at the building...[/quote]
Skip,

Whew!.... That's a group I have NOT designed for....
I was worried!

Thanks for the info.... Do you know if it is just a coincidence or do they leave windows out on purpose, and for what reason?

Just curious, if windows are sinful or somethin' :thinking:

Gaylan

Offline Skip

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« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2004, 10:09:53 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Very plain and simple Skip.

Because when you see that sign, you immediately assume that every single person in that congregation believes everything that the name on the sign says they do.....

That is not right.

and look this is already the assumption you have made.[/quote]
Clifty,

What assumption did I make?
The only assumption I recall making is that I could tell a lot about your congregation just by the building and looking around inside it.
I don't recall EVER saying that everyone in the building believes the same thing!!

Does ANYONE here actually believe that \"everyone in the building believes everything that the name on the sign says they do\"?
Chime in if you are that naïve!

And what's to prevent a person from making a mistaken assumption based on...
- a TV or print advertisement?
- the classes and/or sermons they hear?
- the conversions with a member, or members?
- or even the little that you've told of your congregation?
People are quite capable of getting a mistaken impression from any number of sources!

You're shooting the messenger, the SOF, based on a mistaken premise.
But the SOF is actually not THE messenger, but just one input in a complex mosaic of information.

I look differently at my own congregation now than I did two years ago, or five, or when I first walked in the door.
People come and go. People change. People say something and change your view of them. Ministers and leadership come and go. A new wing was added onto the building. The sign stayed the same.
Which perception was/is \"right\"?
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Being familiar with many different Christian groups, I could walk into most buildings and without speaking to anyone tell just from the decor and literature pretty much which \"heritage\" they come from. In fact, several can be guessed pretty closely from the outside, such as spotting a Virgin Mary statue outside the building, or if there are no windows in the building.[/quote]
I attend a Christian Church congregation right now.... we have people from Catholic backgrounds, COC, Baptist, Methodist and even Jewish backgrounds, so here is one example where if you would have made an assumption, you would have been wrong[/quote]
You misunderstand; I don’t claim to be able to divine the individual heritage of each person who comes into your assemblies.

I could claim the very same mix of membership in the coC I attend. Hey, I’m of Catholic heritage if you want to look at it that way! Based on the building, though, it would be quite safe to say that it’s not a Catholic place of worship.

Just as it would probably not be your Christian Church’s custom to gather on the Sabbath for a Jewish-style worship for individuals of Jewish heritage, and then on Sunday have an early non-IM service for those of coC heritage, followed by a Catholic Mass, then a rousing IM service for the Baptists and so on.

Offline Rocketman

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« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2004, 10:33:29 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]SO, it's much easier in the CoC for a sign to become a hindrance to showing what the people inside that church really believe. If the only CoC you had ever been to was a one-cup, non-institutional, very conservative CoC, you would be wrong in assuming that the Oak Hills or Woodmont Hills CoCs were like that. And vice versa. Or, what if you had always thought the CoC was like the Boston Movement/ICOC? Such a huge range of beliefs and practice all with the CoC name on the outside.

In that kind of setting, I think it makes a little bit more sense to say \"you know what, this sign isn't always doing a good job of telling people who we really are\" (Note: not necessarily because they are no longer a CoC but maybe because they do not match up with some people's perceptions of the CoC).
[/quote]

As usual it seems Wendy I think gets to the heart of the problem.  In the story I relayed a few posts back, our sign/name indicated one thing to the visitors friends and that is the legalistic side of our heritage.  Frankly, I dont want to be confused with that side as I dont agree with them and wonder if some arent in fact teaching a gospel that is no gospel at all.  So there in lies the problem, how can we communicate who we are with a sign, when there are so many different \"kinds\" of us?  I dont know that there is a good solution and I guess everyone will just have to figure it out for themselves (their congregation).  
RM

Offline Nevertheless

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« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2004, 12:20:50 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"no windows in the building\"? ??  What does this tell me?[/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The next time you drive by a Kingdom Hall, take a close look at the building...[/quote]


Several of the larger/newer COC buildings in my area have no windows . . .

 :whistle:

Offline Skip

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« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2004, 12:35:03 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"no windows in the building\"? ??  What does this tell me?[/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The next time you drive by a Kingdom Hall, take a close look at the building...[/quote]


Several of the larger/newer COC buildings in my area have no windows . . .

 :whistle:[/quote]
Where do you live?

Here in north central Alabama there are several \"larger, newer\" coC buildings, but every one that I've seen has windows.

Maybe a coC congregation got a good deal on a \"church building, slightly used...\" :D

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Dropping church of Christ from our title?
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2004, 12:46:22 PM »
A lot of newer church buildings of all stripes have no windows these days because of the trend of using metal buildings.

I think it's deplorable, personally, but people rarely consult me on aesthetic questions.

The Catholic church down the street recently built a new sanctuary or whatever.  It's really impressive.   I've noticed that it is proportionately wider than older Catholic churches.
I think that has something to do with the liturgical changes associated with Vatican II and the desire to let the congregation have a better view.    I think the long, narrow look is more pleasing to the eye, but the Catholics certainly don't consult me these things.

Offline Cliftyman

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« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2004, 12:50:01 PM »
I think its sad that architectural considerations are even considered part of our heritage.....

In fact its deplorable, that we can in any way associate following Christ with a lifeless building.

Offline James Sterling

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« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2004, 12:57:05 PM »
An elder at a CoC in Virginia had the windows closed off on their building.  I heard rumors why, but never confirmed any.  When visiting a singing there one night I saw it first hand though.  It looked strange from the inside.

Offline James Sterling

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« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2004, 01:11:00 PM »
Clifty - I agree it's depressing somewhat.  But there are great studies in renaissance architecture of church buildings.  The framings, facades, and everything else possible was built with crosses in it to turn the believer's mind toward the Cross.  This is where the great stained glass art largely started.

Even a building can glorify God - if it is done with Christian excellence!   :clap:

I remember when standing in Salisbury Cathedral in England (where one copy of the Magna Carta is stored) and looking around the rim of the room there were beautiful carvings, each one connected with the other.  As I looked closer it became evident - it was the story of redemption from Genesis to the resurrection of Christ.  How wonderful!  When I asked one of the attendants about it they remarked that we were fortunate to still have the sculptures in tact.  When the Puritans were on their iconoclastic rampage, they destroyed many of the pieces of Christian art.  However, for some reason they left these - with the exception of removing every inch of paint that used to intricately detail each piece. :offtopic: Yea, yea, yea, I know.............................

Offline Skip

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« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2004, 01:14:07 PM »
Ha!

Thanks for the info about windows and metal buildings! I'll add it to my treasury of useless knowledge.

Though I must say that at least one of the windowless Kingdom Halls I referred to is not a metal building - I saw it go up.