Dropping church of Christ from our title?

[Skip]

Spurly,

Thanks.
I was wondering  how such things were handled on your case since you are a proponent of no distinguishing name on the SOF.

I do wonder from your reply if you are aware of how wide the \"Christian\" umbrella extends.
For instance, the following groups: Mormon (LDS), Church of Christ-Scientist, Seventh Day Adventist, and Jehovah's Witness - operate under the name Christian.

Did you know that?
Does that affect your position on putting the name on the building?

--Skip

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Skip @ Feb. 11 2004,3:41)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Spurly,

Thanks.
I was wondering  how such things were handled on your case since you are a proponent of no distinguishing name on the SOF.

I do wonder from your reply if you are aware of how wide the \"Christian\" umbrella extends.
For instance, the following groups: Mormon (LDS), Church of Christ-Scientist, Seventh Day Adventist, and Jehovah's Witness - operate under the name Christian.

Did you know that?
Does that affect your position on putting the name on the building?

--Skip[/quote]
Nope.  That does not affect it all.  I still believe people should be known by their fruits, and what is taught should be tested by the word of God, not a sign out front.

Kevin

[Cliftyman]

Skip I'd like to answer your questions....



[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]How do you choose where to worship when you travel?[/quote]

My wife and I worship together wherever we are staying, we worship at any number of denominations, or we worship at a denomination with the same name of our own \"home\" Church. (Skip I'm not perfect, I'm guilty of many of the things that my diatribe was against, hence the \"we\", but I am trying to change, hence the diatribe!)

Plus I am realizing that the end all be all of worship is not Sunday morning.  Do I think you can be a Christian and not attend all services of your congregation..... absolutely (and if you doubt that I can give you ample reason why, and on a sidenote I'm definitely not condoning not attending for the sake of not attending, we should have every desire to be together).

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Do you send your kids / youth group to all available VBS and church camps regardless of the \"brand\" of Christianity?[/quote]

Yes I will when my first is born in July, unless they deny that Jesus is the Christ, or teach something for the sake of division, personal glory, etc....

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
Are there any groups under the umbrella of Christianity that you recommend against associating with?[/quote]

I don't recommend against associating with anyone, unless they are a false teacher who comes to your door and denies Christ..... I do recognize that many people who call themselves Christians don't have the love of Christ, don't do things as good as they could, but did Paul disassociate with the Corinthians, Ephesians, etc., that had tons of problems?  no, why should we?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]How do you distinguish Christians from non-Christians so that you can minister and fellowship with the Christians and preach and teach to the lost?[/quote]

I don't distinguish, I live my life the same to whomever I am around.  If they are Christians they will instantly be among edification and fellowship, if they are not they may learn something about a savior whom they have never met.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Could I walk into your assembly and be permitted to teach your class without regard to my doctrinal background?[/quote]

Absolutely, my wife and I have been part of a congregation for about a month now.  The only thing they ask \"members\" (which I realize is a formality and they do too) is if they are immersed believers, they do not turn away un-immersed believers (they would try to bring the un-immersed to a point where they would want to be immersed).  They have asked me to teach classes and I have never taught in their midst before, and they haven't given me a quiz on what my background is or what I believe.  \"They will know you by your love\"

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1 John 39No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. [/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1 John 41Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. [/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1 John 419We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, \"I love God,\" yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother. [/quote]

And remember to Christ love was much more than saying.... love was doing.

My children are going to learn in a free manner, as God lets me learn....  To enforce rules bound to titles and doctrine is what the law did.  The law showed us what sin was but it didn't change us.  Christ on the other hand shows us and changes us.

Its time we open our eyes....

thanks for asking Skip, glad to share it

------------------------

And as for this....
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
I also seem to recall that the little fish symbol was (in the early church) a coded SOF by which Christians knew where Christians met to worship.[/quote]

Don't forget this was a matter of circumstance... in context this was used during a time that Christians were persecuted to the point of death.  I don't think this is justification for continuing the exclusive practices of the present.

[Nevertheless]

:talkingonephone:
All this talk about Yellow Pages listings made me curious.  So here I sit with the phone book in hand (well, in lap while I type).  I noticed a few interesting things.  Neither the Christian church that I attend nor the COC in the same town are listed in the Yellow Pages, though I looked in both the alphabetical and categorized listings.

In fact, I can't find my church in the white pages either!  Oh no!  How will anyone ever find us?  I guess they'll have to come in person rather than call...
 :D

I did find two listings for CHURCH, Christian in our town, but this is someone with the given name \"Christian\" and the surname \"Church\".  I wonder how many calls he gets for the Christian church??

[Shelly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Skip @ Feb. 11 2004,11:41)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The denominational groups have the advantage of much more uniformity; something that the coC does not enjoy.


Does anyone deal with an Oak Hills or Woodmont Hills person(s) firsthand?
What do the rank-and-file say of themselves?
Do they avoid mention of the coC entirely, or only in certain company, or what?

--Skip[/quote]
Skip,

No, the CofC does not enjoy \"uniformity.\"  That is one reason I love our \"denomination.\"  We believe slighty different things, but we are brothers and sisters.  Some may not claim me, but I claim them.  ;)

I have several friends at both Woodmont and Oak Hills.  They often talk about things going on in the CofC's, joke about being outcasts's, but are loyal to their families.  As far as I know they never \"avoid\" talking about their heritage.

I don't know that Paul always knew where the Christians in the area were meeting, I imagine he had to ask, unless he was Psychic!

Shelly

[Skip]

Spurly, Clifty, or anyone...

What is the purpose of removing the SOF?

If unity is the objective, bear in mind that the lack of a SOF did not prevent the Catholic/ Orthodox split, or the Catholic/Protestant split of the Reformation.

Also note that these days the SOF is placed there by the people inside the building as a general indication of the doctrine of the people meeting there. When I see a sign in front of a church building that says \"Catholic Church\", I logically assume that the people meeting there placed the sign out front as an indication that Catholics meet inside and Catholic doctrine is taught inside. I fail to see the harm in such a notification.

The basic purpose of the SOF is probably at the root of why some in the mainline/traditional coC take the removal of coC from the SOF as a split from the coC. After all, if the Catholic Church down the road from me removed \"Catholic\" from the sign, I'd logically assume that Catholics didn't meet there anymore.
What, then, might one expect those in a coC to think when the coC in the next town takes coC off the sign?
I typically would think that it was a conscious choice of the people inside the building stating their new doctrine and direction, as opposed to, say, begin blown off by the wind...

In this area I see a number of church buildings with ambiguous names outside. Many of them have TV advertisements or print advertisements that show something of their worship practices and doctrines.
But, in the end, is telling me with an advertisement really any different than telling me with a SOF?

Being familiar with many different Christian groups, I could walk into most buildings and without speaking to anyone tell just from the decor and literature pretty much which \"heritage\" they come from. In fact, several can be guessed pretty closely from the outside, such as spotting a Virgin Mary statue outside the building, or if there are no windows in the building.

Why not save me the trouble and put it on a SOF?
Actually, by NOT putting it on the SOF, that alone tells me plenty...

--Skip

[Gaylan]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In fact, several can be guessed pretty closely from the outside, such as spotting a Virgin Mary statue outside the building, or if there are no windows in the building.[/quote]
Ok Skip, I'm going to let my dumbs hang out..... laugh if you must... :noworries:
I got the Virign Mary reference..that makes sense...

BUT.....
:thinking:
\"no windows in the building\"? ??  What does this tell me?
:thinking:

I have been designing buildings for most of my life, been on the design team for amoung other things 4 different \"church buildings\" of different \"denominations\" and a youth 180 building for another \"denomination\", and I am not aware of a rule about a certain group of believers not wanting windows in their building.

Have I missed something......

I hope I have not made a \"grave error\" on someone's building.....:doh:

Thanks for the information,
Gaylan

[Cliftyman]

Very plain and simple Skip.

Because when you see that sign, you immediately assume that every single person in that congregation believes everything that the name on the sign says they do.....

That is not right.

and look this is already the assumption you have made.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Being familiar with many different Christian groups, I could walk into most buildings and without speaking to anyone tell just from the decor and literature pretty much which \"heritage\" they come from. In fact, several can be guessed pretty closely from the outside, such as spotting a Virgin Mary statue outside the building, or if there are no windows in the building.[/quote]

I attend a Christian Church congregation right now.... we have people from Catholic backgrounds, COC, Baptist, Methodist and even Jewish backgrounds, so here is one example where if you would have made an assumption, you would have been wrong

We are not to make judgements based on a group, we are to communicate with people individually.

Truthfully I don't think there is anything wrong with a sign, as long as we don't make those assumptions and judgements.

God doesn't grant our salvation as a group he grants it individually.  We should view people no different than God does.

Lets just try and not make assumptions and possibly folks might not want to take down a sign in the first place. :)

[Skip]

Gaylan,

The next time you drive by a Kingdom Hall, take a close look at the building...

[winky]

I think Skip's point about our not having denominational heirarchy and established uniformity is key to this.

The thing is that with, say, Catholic churches, seeing \"Catholic\" on the sign will give you a much better read for what that church believes than seeing \"church of Christ\" on the sign, because the Catholics have a uniform set of beliefs outlined for them by their leaders that everyone is expected to accept. Although there may be some variation, it's not nearly what you see in the CoC because we don't have that denominational heirarchy that decides what each church will teach and practice.

SO, it's much easier in the CoC for a sign to become a hindrance to showing what the people inside that church really believe. If the only CoC you had ever been to was a one-cup, non-institutional, very conservative CoC, you would be wrong in assuming that the Oak Hills or Woodmont Hills CoCs were like that. And vice versa. Or, what if you had always thought the CoC was like the Boston Movement/ICOC? Such a huge range of beliefs and practice all with the CoC name on the outside.

In that kind of setting, I think it makes a little bit more sense to say \"you know what, this sign isn't always doing a good job of telling people who we really are\" (Note: not necessarily because they are no longer a CoC but maybe because they do not match up with some people's perceptions of the CoC).

Wendy

[Gaylan]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The next time you drive by a Kingdom Hall, take a close look at the building...[/quote]
Skip,

Whew!.... That's a group I have NOT designed for....
I was worried!

Thanks for the info.... Do you know if it is just a coincidence or do they leave windows out on purpose, and for what reason?

Just curious, if windows are sinful or somethin' :thinking:

Gaylan

[Skip]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Very plain and simple Skip.

Because when you see that sign, you immediately assume that every single person in that congregation believes everything that the name on the sign says they do.....

That is not right.

and look this is already the assumption you have made.[/quote]
Clifty,

What assumption did I make?
The only assumption I recall making is that I could tell a lot about your congregation just by the building and looking around inside it.
I don't recall EVER saying that everyone in the building believes the same thing!!

Does ANYONE here actually believe that \"everyone in the building believes everything that the name on the sign says they do\"?
Chime in if you are that naïve!

And what's to prevent a person from making a mistaken assumption based on...
- a TV or print advertisement?
- the classes and/or sermons they hear?
- the conversions with a member, or members?
- or even the little that you've told of your congregation?
People are quite capable of getting a mistaken impression from any number of sources!

You're shooting the messenger, the SOF, based on a mistaken premise.
But the SOF is actually not THE messenger, but just one input in a complex mosaic of information.

I look differently at my own congregation now than I did two years ago, or five, or when I first walked in the door.
People come and go. People change. People say something and change your view of them. Ministers and leadership come and go. A new wing was added onto the building. The sign stayed the same.
Which perception was/is \"right\"?
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Being familiar with many different Christian groups, I could walk into most buildings and without speaking to anyone tell just from the decor and literature pretty much which \"heritage\" they come from. In fact, several can be guessed pretty closely from the outside, such as spotting a Virgin Mary statue outside the building, or if there are no windows in the building.[/quote]
I attend a Christian Church congregation right now.... we have people from Catholic backgrounds, COC, Baptist, Methodist and even Jewish backgrounds, so here is one example where if you would have made an assumption, you would have been wrong[/quote]
You misunderstand; I don’t claim to be able to divine the individual heritage of each person who comes into your assemblies.

I could claim the very same mix of membership in the coC I attend. Hey, I’m of Catholic heritage if you want to look at it that way! Based on the building, though, it would be quite safe to say that it’s not a Catholic place of worship.

Just as it would probably not be your Christian Church’s custom to gather on the Sabbath for a Jewish-style worship for individuals of Jewish heritage, and then on Sunday have an early non-IM service for those of coC heritage, followed by a Catholic Mass, then a rousing IM service for the Baptists and so on.

[Rocketman]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]SO, it's much easier in the CoC for a sign to become a hindrance to showing what the people inside that church really believe. If the only CoC you had ever been to was a one-cup, non-institutional, very conservative CoC, you would be wrong in assuming that the Oak Hills or Woodmont Hills CoCs were like that. And vice versa. Or, what if you had always thought the CoC was like the Boston Movement/ICOC? Such a huge range of beliefs and practice all with the CoC name on the outside.

In that kind of setting, I think it makes a little bit more sense to say \"you know what, this sign isn't always doing a good job of telling people who we really are\" (Note: not necessarily because they are no longer a CoC but maybe because they do not match up with some people's perceptions of the CoC).
[/quote]

As usual it seems Wendy I think gets to the heart of the problem.  In the story I relayed a few posts back, our sign/name indicated one thing to the visitors friends and that is the legalistic side of our heritage.  Frankly, I dont want to be confused with that side as I dont agree with them and wonder if some arent in fact teaching a gospel that is no gospel at all.  So there in lies the problem, how can we communicate who we are with a sign, when there are so many different \"kinds\" of us?  I dont know that there is a good solution and I guess everyone will just have to figure it out for themselves (their congregation).  
RM

[Nevertheless]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"no windows in the building\"? ??  What does this tell me?[/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The next time you drive by a Kingdom Hall, take a close look at the building...[/quote]


Several of the larger/newer COC buildings in my area have no windows . . .

 :whistle:

[Skip]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"no windows in the building\"? ??  What does this tell me?[/quote]
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The next time you drive by a Kingdom Hall, take a close look at the building...[/quote]


Several of the larger/newer COC buildings in my area have no windows . . .

 :whistle:[/quote]
Where do you live?

Here in north central Alabama there are several \"larger, newer\" coC buildings, but every one that I've seen has windows.

Maybe a coC congregation got a good deal on a \"church building, slightly used...\" :D

[boringoldguy]

A lot of newer church buildings of all stripes have no windows these days because of the trend of using metal buildings.

I think it's deplorable, personally, but people rarely consult me on aesthetic questions.

The Catholic church down the street recently built a new sanctuary or whatever.  It's really impressive.   I've noticed that it is proportionately wider than older Catholic churches.
I think that has something to do with the liturgical changes associated with Vatican II and the desire to let the congregation have a better view.    I think the long, narrow look is more pleasing to the eye, but the Catholics certainly don't consult me these things.

[Cliftyman]

I think its sad that architectural considerations are even considered part of our heritage.....

In fact its deplorable, that we can in any way associate following Christ with a lifeless building.

[James Sterling]

An elder at a CoC in Virginia had the windows closed off on their building.  I heard rumors why, but never confirmed any.  When visiting a singing there one night I saw it first hand though.  It looked strange from the inside.

[James Sterling]

Clifty - I agree it's depressing somewhat.  But there are great studies in renaissance architecture of church buildings.  The framings, facades, and everything else possible was built with crosses in it to turn the believer's mind toward the Cross.  This is where the great stained glass art largely started.

Even a building can glorify God - if it is done with Christian excellence!   :clap:

I remember when standing in Salisbury Cathedral in England (where one copy of the Magna Carta is stored) and looking around the rim of the room there were beautiful carvings, each one connected with the other.  As I looked closer it became evident - it was the story of redemption from Genesis to the resurrection of Christ.  How wonderful!  When I asked one of the attendants about it they remarked that we were fortunate to still have the sculptures in tact.  When the Puritans were on their iconoclastic rampage, they destroyed many of the pieces of Christian art.  However, for some reason they left these - with the exception of removing every inch of paint that used to intricately detail each piece. :offtopic: Yea, yea, yea, I know.............................

[Skip]

Ha!

Thanks for the info about windows and metal buildings! I'll add it to my treasury of useless knowledge.

Though I must say that at least one of the windowless Kingdom Halls I referred to is not a metal building - I saw it go up.

[James Rondon]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Clifty wrote:
Because when you see that sign, you immediately assume that every single person in that congregation believes everything that the name on the sign says they do.....[/quote]
Regarding architecture... Signs out front have done a good job keeping the walls up.

[Nevertheless]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Where do you live?

Here in north central Alabama there are several \"larger, newer\" coC buildings, but every one that I've seen has windows.[/quote]


South-central Missouri.

And the buildings are brick on the outside, no clue about the innards though.

I specified \"larger, newer\" because the older ones are generally smaller white stucco with a door on one end and one or two windows on each side.

The COC in my town is getting ready to build on a new site, so we'll see what they put up.

Never

[MIZ83]

Never,

I'm in Calif. now, but grew up in West - Central Mo.

You've got to show me!

Blessings,

Bob

[Shelly]

My sister and her husband are in MO, I guess you'd call it central or So. Central.  The Church he preaches for is an old store front, they've converted.  I think they recently added a steeple! :clap:

He in Indiana churches are anything from store fronts to metal building or one congregation even bought an old catholic or lutheran building.  It had a school attached which they are making great use of!

Shelly

[boringoldguy]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Cliftyman @ Feb. 12 2004,1:50)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I think its sad that architectural considerations are even considered part of our heritage.....

In fact its deplorable, that we can in any way associate following Christ with a lifeless building.[/quote]
Why?

What's wrong with wanting a building to be beautiful?

[spurly]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (boringoldguy @ Feb. 13 2004,09:17)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I think its sad that architectural considerations are even considered part of our heritage.....

In fact its deplorable, that we can in any way associate following Christ with a lifeless building.[/quote]
Why?

What's wrong with wanting a building to be beautiful?[/quote]
Because so much money is wasted on buildings that could be used to save the lost, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, give a drink to the thirsty, comfort the dying, etc.  

If it were up to me, the American church would stop putting money in sanctuaries, gyms, family life centers, etc.  And instead we would start using the money where God would be more please and that is to save the lost and meet the needs of the people we love.

I think we as a church have fallen short in this area.  For example, people in Sub-Saharn Africa are being ravaged by AIDS, and for the most part the American Church stands to the side and watches.  How much money in the offering plate gets to people like that?  After paying preachers, mortgages, bills, and other expenses very, very, little actually is used for that.  Will we be judged severely for that?  Probably.

Kevin

[boringoldguy]

Spurly,

I would agree entirely as far as gyms and family life centers go.

But a well-designed \"sanctuary\" can have a tremendous spiritual impact.   And many of the most beautiful church buildings I know of serve people who are often desperately poor.

The thing that irritates me about our buildings is that we often intentionally make them ugly because we say things like what you say about the poor, but we don't really want any real poor people in our building anyway.

We could, if we wished, feed the hungry and clothe the naked in our buildings.    But most congregations instead ran away from them out to the suburbs where they have built windowless monstrosities with gyms and family life centers and seek to avoid the poor.

Eidted by BOG

[servantofchrist]

Hello to you all,
I have been reading this topic and since I'm fairly new to gods word you all have caused me some confussion tha I hope you can clear up for me.
You say that there is nothing in a name but to me it identifies a person town country group or what ever and with in that name is the understanding of what is to be found in this case what the group name of believers believe and if I was looking for that belief then I would look for that group so I feel that the name is of more meaning than given grantit that it wasn't meant to be that way from Christ teaching but brothers wake up we have made it that way.
Futher more some one said it has nothing to do with doctrin. That as long as it was based on some kind of belief in christ it doesn't matter what the doctrin is. That is a direct disregaurd to The Spirits teaching. Remebering that the Spirit is the one talking through Paul look what the Spirit said in Galations 1 :-12
6.I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gopel
7. Which is not another but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the Gospel of christ.
8.But though we or an angle from heaven preach any other gosspel unto you thatn that which we have preached unto you let him be accursed.
9.As we said before so say I now again If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have recieved let him be accursed.
10. For do I now persuade men or God or do i seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men  I should not be the servant of Christ.
11. But I certify you brethren that the Gosple which was preached of me is not after man.
12.for I neither received it of man niether ws I taught it. but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

So see doctrin does matter and the name of the church indicates what the doctrin is that the church follows and for us to day that it doesn't matter is to call God a lier he has begged us not to get caught up in all the false doctrins and that they would be many he pleads for unity and is not the author of cunfussion. For us to sugar coat this teaching is the same as not accepting the truth of his word.
So in the light of the many different names of churches and all with different doctrins how can we mear humans say that Doctrin doesn't matter when our Most Gracious Father in Heaven clearly said it is of most importance.

That is why I feel that the name of the group is important. I know that the Bible doesn't teach any certian name but the ones we have applied do tell of the doctrin of the name.

Thanks for your time and forgive me if I have offended anyone in standing on the word of God but it is the only means of knowing what Gods will is for me .
Bill

[Johnb]

Bill
Hi my brother.  
Could you tell me who and how one deternines what doctrine is of God or not?  Also do you think the churches that meet in house in the first century had signs out front to seperate them from the jews?  Just wondering  Johnb