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Offline starla

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Landmark Church of Christ
« on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 00:10:53 »
Hello ::smile:: I've been having certain questions about this particular church of Christ in Montgomery,Alabama.It's called Landmark Church of Christ .Back in October last year,me and my mother placed our membership there.I kind of regret doing that because I question their nontraditional ways of being a congregation.Their worship is just like any other church of Christ except they do things differently like for instance the minister does not give the invitation like the other churches of Christ do Ex:Hear,Repent,Confess and be Baptized for the remission of sins but a lot of people have been baptized. and there is a lot more I would like to say but I want you to look at the website http://landmarkchurch.net  to see what do you think.My question is this:Is it okay for a Church of Christ to no be so traditional but still worship like any other church of Christ and what the New Testament teaches.The minister at landmark name Buddy Bell does not believe in Landmark being so traditional is the reason why Landmark is so different.

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Landmark Church of Christ
« on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 00:10:53 »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 00:25:07 »
Hi Starla,

It seems every congregation is going to be a little different.  What struck me from the website is the sitting arrangement.  Cool.  As for the invitation at the end of a sermon, it is a tradition, isn't it?  If folks do it remembering it is a tradition, what's the problem?  And if they don't, what's the problem?  From what you said, it does appear folks are getting what most all of us COC folks figure the bible teaches about salvation.  Perhaps the reason they have the Landmark 101 is to go into such things more deeply out of concern that tacking it on at the end of a sermon may be short hitting.

How have you been?  Long time no post!

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 00:25:07 »

Offline Livelysword

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #2 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 11:13:13 »
Hi Starla,

It seems every congregation is going to be a little different.  What struck me from the website is the sitting arrangement.  Cool.  As for the invitation at the end of a sermon, it is a tradition, isn't it?  If folks do it remembering it is a tradition, what's the problem?  And if they don't, what's the problem?  From what you said, it does appear folks are getting what most all of us COC folks figure the bible teaches about salvation.  Perhaps the reason they have the Landmark 101 is to go into such things more deeply out of concern that tacking it on at the end of a sermon may be short hitting.

How have you been?  Long time no post!


Lively:  I certainly would have a problem with any congregation which does not offer an invitation to salvation when that body gathers....  the Spirit and the bride say come... do they not?  Who is the bride?  Oh, thats right, its the members of the church... us...


Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


How can those who hear say come, if they do not hear such an invitation?  I do not know of any faithful church of Christ which does not offer an invitation both to the lost to be reconciled or to those who have once obeyed but find themselves estranged from God... to repent and confess their sins and seek forgiveness...

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #3 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 17:31:24 »
Isn't that the church in Montgomery that saw exponential growth in the 90s?

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #3 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 17:31:24 »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #4 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 18:14:58 »
Lively:  I certainly would have a problem with any congregation which does not offer an invitation to salvation when that body gathers....  the Spirit and the bride say come... do they not?  Who is the bride?  Oh, thats right, its the members of the church... us...


The fact that the congregation in question has had lots of growth indicates the invitation is being issued.  It matters not if it is in a traditional form that others may prefer.  Many of the folks in our congregation sought baptism after discussion with others in the congregation.  In fact, I didn't respond to the end-of-sermon invitation, either.  It came from study and discussion.

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #4 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 18:14:58 »



Offline starla

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #5 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 21:25:47 »
Isn't that the church in Montgomery that saw exponential growth in the 90s?


I am not sure but back in the 90's Landmark was not always like it is now. I remember at Landmark singing with hymn books but now Landmark don't even use Hymn books to sing from anymore.A powerpoint screen is used.

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #6 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 21:39:18 »
Isn't that the church in Montgomery that saw exponential growth in the 90s?


I am not sure but back in the 90's Landmark was not always like it is now. I remember at Landmark singing with hymn books but now Landmark don't even use Hymn books to sing from anymore.A powerpoint screen is used.

We have most of our songs on powerpoint now, as well as the scripture being read.  The preacher normally uses it during the sermon, as well.

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #7 on: Mon Mar 23, 2009 - 22:23:46 »
I didn't see anything on the website that causes me concern.

How are they non-traditional?

There is no Scriptural, compelling need to offer an invitation after a sermon, especially if the sermon is aimed at the folks in the pews, rather than visitors or non-believers.

So, help me out with some examples.

Offline savedbyhim

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #8 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 05:23:08 »
Starla,

I have visited the Landmark church before and found them to be a very friendly congregation, and yes, they were not the traditional church of Christ.....everyone I noticed had a smile and seemed to be enjoying themselves!

Well, so much for my humor, but I just wanted to let you know that you would not have a problem there. Find something there where you can get active serving God in some capacity. Trust me, there is something there for you and I know you will fit in just fine.



Offline Arkstfan

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #9 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 08:01:17 »
I'm not sure that a gathering that is traditionally a gathering of believers requires an invitiation.

What do we do when we gather.
-We take communion, most contend that is open to any baptized believer. There are some liberal thinkers who say it is open to anyone who hasn't rejected Christ which seems like saying kids won't be hit by lightining if they join in.
-We sing. This is the act of believers praising and worshipping God.
-We pray. An act of petition and praise, a believer's act.
- We study or get a sermon/lecture. Depending on your congregation and the minister's mood that day it could be aimed at non-believers or to instruct and encourage believers.

The things we do together are generally not aimed at non-believers so it is little shock that non-believers tend to not be amongst us in significant numbers.

I don't know about this particular congregation but I know it is very common in other places to not have an invitation/call but rather just announce that the preacher will be down front after the service to answer questions etc.

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #10 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 08:50:24 »
Isn't that the church in Montgomery that saw exponential growth in the 90s?


I am not sure but back in the 90's Landmark was not always like it is now. I remember at Landmark singing with hymn books but now Landmark don't even use Hymn books to sing from anymore. A powerpoint screen is used.
At one time people used scrolls and papyrus, too--now not so much.  Same difference.

__________________________

If I recall correctly, back near 2000 (+/-  a year or two) Buddy Bell have a presentation at the TSWW about how they'd grown from 300ish to +800 in just 5-7 years.  One of the things he said they had to do to get there was to finally let tradition rest in its proper place and stop holding the church back from tools/opportunities for growth.  I'm assuming that was Landmark, but maybe not if he's moved since then (I don't know if he has or not). 

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #11 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 08:58:21 »
I'm not sure that a gathering that is traditionally a gathering of believers requires an invitiation.

What do we do when we gather.
-We take communion, most contend that is open to any baptized believer. There are some liberal thinkers who say it is open to anyone who hasn't rejected Christ which seems like saying kids won't be hit by lightining if they join in.
-We sing. This is the act of believers praising and worshipping God.
-We pray. An act of petition and praise, a believer's act.
- We study or get a sermon/lecture. Depending on your congregation and the minister's mood that day it could be aimed at non-believers or to instruct and encourage believers.

The things we do together are generally not aimed at non-believers so it is little shock that non-believers tend to not be amongst us in significant numbers.

I don't know about this particular congregation but I know it is very common in other places to not have an invitation/call but rather just announce that the preacher will be down front after the service to answer questions etc.
I'm sure it doesn't.  No BCV requires such, and often lessons geared toward edifying the saints don't even fit with the tacked on plea at the end.  It's a tradition (not a bad one, necessarily, but that is what it is), and as such should not be bound as law, or used as a test of fellowship/faithfulness, plain & simple.

Truth be told, the "invitation" as we know it is a "denominational innovation of man."

Offline Arkstfan

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #12 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 09:17:03 »
Within the restoration movement it comes from the Presbyterians (who knows where they got it) where people came down front to await the arrival of the Holy Spirit denoting their salvation. Those who never "felt it" just waited around hoping their election status would change.

Rejection of the idea that sincere people who wanted to follow Christ but were left out of the body because they didn't feel a supernatural event led to the study of and focus on baptism as a clear sign of acceptance.

I don't know where the Presbyterians got it from because I've not studied it that deeply.


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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #13 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 09:26:48 »
Something occurred to me not all that long ago with regard to what the New Testament says about how the church did things or how the church was commanded to do things.  And, that is... the lack of detail.

When you examine the historical narratives of church meetings from Acts and make inferences about how the church apparently did things in the epistles, we're just simply not given a whole lot of detail of how they did things, as well as when, where, and in what order they did what they did.  That creates problems when we try to implement a strict "follow the pattern" scheme.

We're looking for a New Testament version of Leviticus to tell us specifically how to worship with liturgical precision... when there is none.  All we really have are references to coming together to partake of the Lord's Supper and really only generalities beyond that (i.e. singing, praying, edification, etc.).

So, we have not much ground to stand on to criticize the way others implement their assemblies when we have no more specific authority for how we do everything we do than they do.

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #14 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 09:28:11 »
Invitation, mourner's bench, altar call, it's all a different bite of the same banana.  Here's an article that deals with some of the history.

http://www.myconvictions.com/sinnersprayer.html

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #15 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 09:29:24 »
Something occurred to me not all that long ago with regard to what the New Testament says about how the church did things or how the church was commanded to do things.  And, that is... the lack of detail.

When you examine the historical narratives of church meetings from Acts and make inferences about how the church apparently did things in the epistles, we're just simply not given a whole lot of detail of how they did things, as well as when, where, and in what order they did what they did.  That creates problems when we try to implement a strict "follow the pattern" scheme.

We're looking for a New Testament version of Leviticus to tell us specifically how to worship with liturgical precision... when there is none.  All we really have are references to coming together to partake of the Lord's Supper and really only generalities beyond that (i.e. singing, praying, edification, etc.).

So, we have not much ground to stand on to criticize the way others implement their assemblies when we have no more specific authority for how we do everything we do than they do.
Yep, and there simply does not exist a New Testament Leviticus (it's funny you bring that up, it's been something I've been chewing on, too, and I've been about with folks offline).

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #16 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 09:37:46 »
Something occurred to me not all that long ago with regard to what the New Testament says about how the church did things or how the church was commanded to do things.  And, that is... the lack of detail.

When you examine the historical narratives of church meetings from Acts and make inferences about how the church apparently did things in the epistles, we're just simply not given a whole lot of detail of how they did things, as well as when, where, and in what order they did what they did.  That creates problems when we try to implement a strict "follow the pattern" scheme.

We're looking for a New Testament version of Leviticus to tell us specifically how to worship with liturgical precision... when there is none.  All we really have are references to coming together to partake of the Lord's Supper and really only generalities beyond that (i.e. singing, praying, edification, etc.).

So, we have not much ground to stand on to criticize the way others implement their assemblies when we have no more specific authority for how we do everything we do than they do.
Yep, and there simply does not exist a New Testament Leviticus (it's funny you bring that up, it's been something I've been chewing on, too, and I've been about with folks offline).

Great point, DCR.  I believe that NT patternism produces an extremely superficial way to "do church".

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #17 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 10:52:48 »
Something occurred to me not all that long ago with regard to what the New Testament says about how the church did things or how the church was commanded to do things.  And, that is... the lack of detail.

When you examine the historical narratives of church meetings from Acts and make inferences about how the church apparently did things in the epistles, we're just simply not given a whole lot of detail of how they did things, as well as when, where, and in what order they did what they did.  That creates problems when we try to implement a strict "follow the pattern" scheme.

We're looking for a New Testament version of Leviticus to tell us specifically how to worship with liturgical precision... when there is none.  All we really have are references to coming together to partake of the Lord's Supper and really only generalities beyond that (i.e. singing, praying, edification, etc.).

So, we have not much ground to stand on to criticize the way others implement their assemblies when we have no more specific authority for how we do everything we do than they do.
Yep, and there simply does not exist a New Testament Leviticus (it's funny you bring that up, it's been something I've been chewing on, too, and I've been about with folks offline).

Great point, DCR.  I believe that NT patternism produces an extremely superficial way to "do church".
And that's really the crux, isn't it?  It puts so much much of the focus on what was and wasn't "done" in the NT that we miss were Jesus was calling us to be.  An old catch phrase still common in some circles is "When we do what they did we'll get what they got."  The reference is always in the context of seeing Acts as Leviticus 2.0 (Gospel of Luke, cont.) and thinking the growth seen in the beginning is the result of a patternistic "1, 2, 3, kick" pattern. 

It's much closer to the truth, istm, that when we become what they were, we'll get what they got.

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #18 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 11:01:47 »
btw, at Lipscomb last year, I attended one of Buddy Bell's classes on small group meetings.  This is something I think would fit with our church, but I'm not in a position to suggest anything unusual at the moment.

Offline Just As I Am

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #19 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 12:21:43 »
Something occurred to me not all that long ago with regard to what the New Testament says about how the church did things or how the church was commanded to do things.  And, that is... the lack of detail.

When you examine the historical narratives of church meetings from Acts and make inferences about how the church apparently did things in the epistles, we're just simply not given a whole lot of detail of how they did things, as well as when, where, and in what order they did what they did.  That creates problems when we try to implement a strict "follow the pattern" scheme.

We're looking for a New Testament version of Leviticus to tell us specifically how to worship with liturgical precision... when there is none.  All we really have are references to coming together to partake of the Lord's Supper and really only generalities beyond that (i.e. singing, praying, edification, etc.).

So, we have not much ground to stand on to criticize the way others implement their assemblies when we have no more specific authority for how we do everything we do than they do.

I've been on the same page with you here DCR. Upon lots of study and examination of Acts and the epistles there really does not emerge any pattern to follow. Examples of how they gathered, in ways they handled disputes really seemed to enlighten the purpose of assembling together. 
Quote
And that's really the crux, isn't it?  It puts so much much of the focus on what was and wasn't "done" in the NT that we miss were Jesus was calling us to be.

Amen brother.


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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #20 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 13:59:17 »
btw, at Lipscomb last year, I attended one of Buddy Bell's classes on small group meetings.  This is something I think would fit with our church, but I'm not in a position to suggest anything unusual at the moment.

What's unusual about small group meetings? A lot of churches that don't have them... have them except they are  interest based groups.

Offline Livelysword

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #21 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 14:04:36 »
I'm not sure that a gathering that is traditionally a gathering of believers requires an invitiation.

What do we do when we gather.
-We take communion, most contend that is open to any baptized believer. There are some liberal thinkers who say it is open to anyone who hasn't rejected Christ which seems like saying kids won't be hit by lightining if they join in.
-We sing. This is the act of believers praising and worshipping God.
-We pray. An act of petition and praise, a believer's act.
- We study or get a sermon/lecture. Depending on your congregation and the minister's mood that day it could be aimed at non-believers or to instruct and encourage believers.

The things we do together are generally not aimed at non-believers so it is little shock that non-believers tend to not be amongst us in significant numbers.

I don't know about this particular congregation but I know it is very common in other places to not have an invitation/call but rather just announce that the preacher will be down front after the service to answer questions etc.


Lively:  I view it as... either we are going to preach the gospel or we are not....  if we preach the gospel, then we preach the invitation, otherwise, why bother to preach the gospel?

marc

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #22 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 14:11:58 »
btw, at Lipscomb last year, I attended one of Buddy Bell's classes on small group meetings.  This is something I think would fit with our church, but I'm not in a position to suggest anything unusual at the moment.

What's unusual about small group meetings? A lot of churches that don't have them... have them except they are  interest based groups.

There are some circumstances I can't get into now.  Sorry, I should have kept quiet.

fwiw, our church is itself a small group. There are two reasons, though, that these would be appropriate on Sunday nights.  One, our current service is a bit of a disorganized waste at times, and two, we are spread out over a thirty-mile area.

Offline Just As I Am

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #23 on: Tue Mar 24, 2009 - 21:50:04 »
Lively:  I view it as... either we are going to preach the gospel or we are not....  if we preach the gospel, then we preach the invitation, otherwise, why bother to preach the gospel?

Are you saying the invitation is part of the gospel?
btw, at Lipscomb last year, I attended one of Buddy Bell's classes on small group meetings.  This is something I think would fit with our church, but I'm not in a position to suggest anything unusual at the moment.

What's unusual about small group meetings? A lot of churches that don't have them... have them except they are  interest based groups.

There are some circumstances I can't get into now.  Sorry, I should have kept quiet.

fwiw, our church is itself a small group. There are two reasons, though, that these would be appropriate on Sunday nights.  One, our current service is a bit of a disorganized waste at times, and two, we are spread out over a thirty-mile area.

nah...why would we want you to keep quiet? Being spread out over 50 miles in all directions, small groups do help. I've found even in that, if people don't want it, they won't attend it seems.




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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #24 on: Wed Mar 25, 2009 - 07:45:14 »
At a gathering of believers doing nothing but preaching the incarnation, death and resurrection is strictly a milk diet. Churches doing that create weak believers and fail to advance the kingdom because you don't reach sinners from the pulpit, you reach them in homes, offices, the streets, and shops.

Sinners tend to not wander in to see what's happening in that quaint little building.

Marc, I suspect you are saying you are at a place that declares small groups to be a change agent element that is unauthorized and suspect.

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #25 on: Wed Mar 25, 2009 - 07:48:07 »
At a gathering of believers doing nothing but preaching the incarnation, death and resurrection is strictly a milk diet. Churches doing that create weak believers and fail to advance the kingdom because you don't reach sinners from the pulpit, you reach them in homes, offices, the streets, and shops.

Sinners tend to not wander in to see what's happening in that quaint little building.
::amen::  As Abe Lincoln, SSOP instructor, used to say, "You won't be able to flap the doors fast enough to create a vacuum to suck 'em in.  The Lord said, 'GO!' not, 'Sit.'"

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #26 on: Wed Mar 25, 2009 - 10:22:53 »
At a gathering of believers doing nothing but preaching the incarnation, death and resurrection is strictly a milk diet. Churches doing that create weak believers and fail to advance the kingdom because you don't reach sinners from the pulpit, you reach them in homes, offices, the streets, and shops.

Sinners tend to not wander in to see what's happening in that quaint little building.

Marc, I suspect you are saying you are at a place that declares small groups to be a change agent element that is unauthorized and suspect.

Not really.  It's complicated and, unfortunately, personal.  Long story.

Offline JERRY C

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #27 on: Wed Mar 25, 2009 - 15:13:57 »
 ::smile::

sis. Starla,

back to your original comment "... I kind of regret doing that because I question their nontraditional ways of being a congregation. ..." That is the very reason I would want to go there!!

different strokes for different folks?

on a serious note, I know BB personally; have attended some of their men's retreats; his nephew and my youngest son were childhood friends.   point is - he comes from good stock, spiritually speaking.

I'd recommend relaxing, and enjoying a refreshing walk with God's people there at LCOC.

marc

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #28 on: Wed Mar 25, 2009 - 21:21:06 »
After what I did tonight (honestly answered a question in class about instrumental music), I really need to explain things further, but I'll wait until tomorrow.  I've been off some meds for a few days and have been pretty on edge.  I'm back on now, and tomorrow should be a calmer day.

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #29 on: Thu Mar 26, 2009 - 09:51:36 »
After what I did tonight (honestly answered a question in class about instrumental music), I really need to explain things further, but I'll wait until tomorrow.  I've been off some meds for a few days and have been pretty on edge.  I'm back on now, and tomorrow should be a calmer day.


Lively:  Restraint is a wonderful quality...   :)

marc

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #30 on: Thu Mar 26, 2009 - 09:56:16 »
As is honesty.

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Re: Landmark Church of Christ
« Reply #31 on: Thu Mar 26, 2009 - 09:59:42 »
As is honesty.

Agreed... God bless... hope you feel better soon...

 

     
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