Member or not

[Livelysword]

I think if there is a difference between our congregations (burdensome) and Christ's church (legalistic) then we need to examine our congregations to make sure they are in line with Christ's teachings.  Perhaps a close exam will show there is much work to be done in building the spirit of love that we need to reflect.

Lively:  The differences is really simple... either a church keeps the commandments as given in the NT and respects the authority of Jesus Christ, or they do not...  but every church is to examine themselves...  when churches start teaching things not taught in scripture... other churches let them know, and if they do not change... they simply note them as apostate and have no fellowship with them...  which is why all the splits in the church.... people do not respect the authority of Jesus Christ and teach things which they ought not...  they are self willed...

[mandalee65]

I think if there is a difference between our congregations (burdensome) and Christ's church (legalistic) then we need to examine our congregations to make sure they are in line with Christ's teachings.  Perhaps a close exam will show there is much work to be done in building the spirit of love that we need to reflect.

Lively:  The differences is really simple... either a church keeps the commandments as given in the NT and respects the authority of Jesus Christ, or they do not...  but every church is to examine themselves...  when churches start teaching things not taught in scripture... other churches let them know, and if they do not change... they simply note them as apostate and have no fellowship with them...  which is why all the splits in the church.... people do not respect the authority of Jesus Christ and teach things which they ought not...  they are self willed...

I have to say... most of the CoCs I've been to are wonderful at examining everyone else, but can't turn that microscope on themselves. They can't see that they are "teaching as doctrine the traditions of men." I've heard that argument preached my entire life, and have yet to see one congregation genuinely examine themselves and change when it was needed.

[Livelysword]

I think if there is a difference between our congregations (burdensome) and Christ's church (legalistic) then we need to examine our congregations to make sure they are in line with Christ's teachings.  Perhaps a close exam will show there is much work to be done in building the spirit of love that we need to reflect.

Lively:  The differences is really simple... either a church keeps the commandments as given in the NT and respects the authority of Jesus Christ, or they do not...  but every church is to examine themselves...  when churches start teaching things not taught in scripture... other churches let them know, and if they do not change... they simply note them as apostate and have no fellowship with them...  which is why all the splits in the church.... people do not respect the authority of Jesus Christ and teach things which they ought not...  they are self willed...

I have to say... most of the CoCs I've been to are wonderful at examining everyone else, but can't turn that microscope on themselves. They can't see that they are "teaching as doctrine the traditions of men." I've heard that argument preached my entire life, and have yet to see one congregation genuinely examine themselves and change when it was needed.

Lively:  The reason why you are not seeing changes today is because all the splits over the issues has already happened... those who split contrary to the word of God are those who need to examine and change... and then one day we shall find them back in fellowship with those who have remained faithful and held to the truth of the gospel... more likely, individuals will come to the truth and will be unable to convince church members of their split, and so will just leave them and come over to the churches which hold to the truth...

[mandalee65]

Lively:  The reason why you are not seeing changes today is because all the splits over the issues has already happened... those who split contrary to the word of God are those who need to examine and change... and then one day we shall find them back in fellowship with those who have remained faithful and held to the truth of the gospel... more likely, individuals will come to the truth and will be unable to convince church members of their split, and so will just leave them and come over to the churches which hold to the truth...

Without meaning to, I think have succinctly stated my single biggest problem with the COC. You assume that it (the CoC) is right, and therefore you have no need to examine yourself. Have you forgotten that we are all human? We all make mistakes - is there not even the remotest possibility that the CoC's stance on any one issue might actually be wrong? Doesn't that strike you as terribly arrogant and Pharisaical?

I once heard an elder say the CoC had "studied that (issue) years ago, and we don't need to study it again!" Where's the growth in that, Lively? I know you are doing the very best you can to interpret scripture as accurately as possible, and I totally respect that. It is a worthy goal. But I promise you that those who attend a Christian church, or Baptist church, or Lutheran church, or whatever - those people will say the same thing. What in the world is it that is so special about the CoC that their members are totally impervious to doctrinal mistakes?

For what's it's worth, there isn't a denomination on the face of the planet that has it all figured out. It is the height of arrogance to even think that we can be so perfect as to never make a doctrinal mistake. We can freely admit that we sin every day; why can we not admit that some of those sins just might be doctrinal in nature?

[Livelysword]

Lively:  The reason why you are not seeing changes today is because all the splits over the issues has already happened... those who split contrary to the word of God are those who need to examine and change... and then one day we shall find them back in fellowship with those who have remained faithful and held to the truth of the gospel... more likely, individuals will come to the truth and will be unable to convince church members of their split, and so will just leave them and come over to the churches which hold to the truth...

Without meaning to, I think have succinctly stated my single biggest problem with the COC. You assume that it (the CoC) is right, and therefore you have no need to examine yourself. Have you forgotten that we are all human? We all make mistakes - is there not even the remotest possibility that the CoC's stance on any one issue might actually be wrong? Doesn't that strike you as terribly arrogant and Pharisaical?

I once heard an elder say the CoC had "studied that (issue) years ago, and we don't need to study it again!" Where's the growth in that, Lively? I know you are doing the very best you can to interpret scripture as accurately as possible, and I totally respect that. It is a worthy goal. But I promise you that those who attend a Christian church, or Baptist church, or Lutheran church, or whatever - those people will say the same thing. What in the world is it that is so special about the CoC that their members are totally impervious to doctrinal mistakes?

For what's it's worth, there isn't a denomination on the face of the planet that has it all figured out. It is the height of arrogance to even think that we can be so perfect as to never make a doctrinal mistake. We can freely admit that we sin every day; why can we not admit that some of those sins just might be doctrinal in nature?

Lively:  It is possible that we can all be mistaken from time to time on a belief...  but that does not necessarily mean we are on such issues as has recently been discussed on this board either...  the rules of the board do not permit me to take a single faith and discuss its merits and show them to be wrong... that is if I name one... that is against the rules...  so its like the board here has set for themselves that nobody can discuss another faith and show what they believe is not from God and therefore from the one who opposes God in all things...  but if we decided to discuss one of them denominations... and discussed the doctrines they hold to... we can find if they are holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ or not... and what that then means of those denominations which do not adhere to the gospel of Jesus Christ...  the rules here do not want us to call a child of the devil a child of the devil, least they be offended in being the child of the devil...  Heaven forbid that the word of God convict their souls that they might recover themselves from the snare of the devil... and I am fully willing to discuss the Merits of the church of Christ doctrine if it is holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ... Personally I say... lets examine them all...  equally and not spare, and call them for what they really are... either a child of God or a child of the devil...

[zoonance]

Lively:  The reason why you are not seeing changes today is because all the splits over the issues has already happened... those who split contrary to the word of God are those who need to examine and change... and then one day we shall find them back in fellowship with those who have remained faithful and held to the truth of the gospel... more likely, individuals will come to the truth and will be unable to convince church members of their split, and so will just leave them and come over to the churches which hold to the truth...

Without meaning to, I think have succinctly stated my single biggest problem with the COC. You assume that it (the CoC) is right, and therefore you have no need to examine yourself. Have you forgotten that we are all human? We all make mistakes - is there not even the remotest possibility that the CoC's stance on any one issue might actually be wrong? Doesn't that strike you as terribly arrogant and Pharisaical?

I once heard an elder say the CoC had "studied that (issue) years ago, and we don't need to study it again!" Where's the growth in that, Lively? I know you are doing the very best you can to interpret scripture as accurately as possible, and I totally respect that. It is a worthy goal. But I promise you that those who attend a Christian church, or Baptist church, or Lutheran church, or whatever - those people will say the same thing. What in the world is it that is so special about the CoC that their members are totally impervious to doctrinal mistakes?

For what's it's worth, there isn't a denomination on the face of the planet that has it all figured out. It is the height of arrogance to even think that we can be so perfect as to never make a doctrinal mistake. We can freely admit that we sin every day; why can we not admit that some of those sins just might be doctrinal in nature?

Lively:  It is possible that we can all be mistaken from time to time on a belief...  but that does not necessarily mean we are on such issues as has recently been discussed on this board either...  the rules of the board do not permit me to take a single faith and discuss its merits and show them to be wrong... that is if I name one... that is against the rules...  so its like the board here has set for themselves that nobody can discuss another faith and show what they believe is not from God and therefore from the one who opposes God in all things...  but if we decided to discuss one of them denominations... and discussed the doctrines they hold to... we can find if they are holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ or not... and what that then means of those denominations which do not adhere to the gospel of Jesus Christ...  the rules here do not want us to call a child of the devil a child of the devil, least they be offended in being the child of the devil...  Heaven forbid that the word of God convict their souls that they might recover themselves from the snare of the devil... and I am fully willing to discuss the Merits of the church of Christ doctrine if it is holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ... Personally I say... lets examine them all...  equally and not spare, and call them for what they really are... either a child of God or a child of the devil...

This isn't true.  There are plenty of opportunities to discuss whatever.    Who are the children of God and the children of the devil? Name them.

[mandalee65]

Lively, I think you are scared to death of being wrong. Why else would you refuse to examine yourself?

the rules of the board do not permit me to take a single faith and discuss its merits and show them to be wrong... that is if I name one... that is against the rules...  so its like the board here has set for themselves that nobody can discuss another faith and show what they believe is not from God and therefore from the one who opposes God in all things...  but if we decided to discuss one of them denominations... and discussed the doctrines they hold to... we can find if they are holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ or not... and what that then means of those denominations which do not adhere to the gospel of Jesus Christ...

I didn't ask what everyone is doing wrong - I asked if you (or the CoC) could possibly be wrong on the issues the board has covered lately.

Forget about everybody else. Examine yourself. Examine the CoC doctrines that you hold so dear. Use the same microscope you use for everyone. Can you be that honest with yourself?

and I am fully willing to discuss the Merits of the church of Christ doctrine if it is holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ... Personally I say... lets examine them all...  equally and not spare, and call them for what they really are... either a child of God or a child of the devil...

I don't want you to discuss the "merits" of the CoC. I want you to honestly examine the doctrine, not just regurgitate the official answers to every question.

Remember Jesus' admonition about a man with a plank in his eye trying to pull a speck out of someone else's?

You need to make sure that you don't have a plank. We all need to do that from time to time, or we risk becoming the very Pharisees that frustrated Jesus so.

[Livelysword]

Lively:  The reason why you are not seeing changes today is because all the splits over the issues has already happened... those who split contrary to the word of God are those who need to examine and change... and then one day we shall find them back in fellowship with those who have remained faithful and held to the truth of the gospel... more likely, individuals will come to the truth and will be unable to convince church members of their split, and so will just leave them and come over to the churches which hold to the truth...

Without meaning to, I think have succinctly stated my single biggest problem with the COC. You assume that it (the CoC) is right, and therefore you have no need to examine yourself. Have you forgotten that we are all human? We all make mistakes - is there not even the remotest possibility that the CoC's stance on any one issue might actually be wrong? Doesn't that strike you as terribly arrogant and Pharisaical?

I once heard an elder say the CoC had "studied that (issue) years ago, and we don't need to study it again!" Where's the growth in that, Lively? I know you are doing the very best you can to interpret scripture as accurately as possible, and I totally respect that. It is a worthy goal. But I promise you that those who attend a Christian church, or Baptist church, or Lutheran church, or whatever - those people will say the same thing. What in the world is it that is so special about the CoC that their members are totally impervious to doctrinal mistakes?

For what's it's worth, there isn't a denomination on the face of the planet that has it all figured out. It is the height of arrogance to even think that we can be so perfect as to never make a doctrinal mistake. We can freely admit that we sin every day; why can we not admit that some of those sins just might be doctrinal in nature?

Lively:  It is possible that we can all be mistaken from time to time on a belief...  but that does not necessarily mean we are on such issues as has recently been discussed on this board either...  the rules of the board do not permit me to take a single faith and discuss its merits and show them to be wrong... that is if I name one... that is against the rules...  so its like the board here has set for themselves that nobody can discuss another faith and show what they believe is not from God and therefore from the one who opposes God in all things...  but if we decided to discuss one of them denominations... and discussed the doctrines they hold to... we can find if they are holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ or not... and what that then means of those denominations which do not adhere to the gospel of Jesus Christ...  the rules here do not want us to call a child of the devil a child of the devil, least they be offended in being the child of the devil...  Heaven forbid that the word of God convict their souls that they might recover themselves from the snare of the devil... and I am fully willing to discuss the Merits of the church of Christ doctrine if it is holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ... Personally I say... lets examine them all...  equally and not spare, and call them for what they really are... either a child of God or a child of the devil...

This isn't true.  There are plenty of opportunities to discuss whatever.    Who are the children of God and the children of the devil? Name them.

Lively:  And we have your word on that right, this isn't true??  therefore what you state is correct right??  In what are the children of God manifest and the children of the devil??  What is the distinction between them?


1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

[Livelysword]

Lively, I think you are scared to death of being wrong. Why else would you refuse to examine yourself?

the rules of the board do not permit me to take a single faith and discuss its merits and show them to be wrong... that is if I name one... that is against the rules...  so its like the board here has set for themselves that nobody can discuss another faith and show what they believe is not from God and therefore from the one who opposes God in all things...  but if we decided to discuss one of them denominations... and discussed the doctrines they hold to... we can find if they are holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ or not... and what that then means of those denominations which do not adhere to the gospel of Jesus Christ...

I didn't ask what everyone is doing wrong - I asked if you (or the CoC) could possibly be wrong on the issues the board has covered lately.

Forget about everybody else. Examine yourself. Examine the CoC doctrines that you hold so dear. Use the same microscope you use for everyone. Can you be that honest with yourself?

and I am fully willing to discuss the Merits of the church of Christ doctrine if it is holding to the doctrines of Jesus Christ... Personally I say... lets examine them all...  equally and not spare, and call them for what they really are... either a child of God or a child of the devil...

I don't want you to discuss the "merits" of the CoC. I want you to honestly examine the doctrine, not just regurgitate the official answers to every question.

Remember Jesus' admonition about a man with a plank in his eye trying to pull a speck out of someone else's?

You need to make sure that you don't have a plank. We all need to do that from time to time, or we risk becoming the very Pharisees that frustrated Jesus so.

  I do not regurgitate official answers... all that you hear from me is from my study... from my reading the word and coming to understand it... from hearing what others say and checking it against the scriptures...  to determine its validity...  do you think I have a group of people behind me telling what to write and so I am parroting while I sit here writing to you?  Do you think that I do not study for myself and only speak of what I have heard on sundays?  If I had to rely on that only... I would starve to death for lack of spiritual food...  I do recall a time when I parroted some things... it was the NT on cd... and I would put one in while I drove back and forth to work... and I would parrot with Alexander Scourby word for word as he spoke the NT... day in and day out... some times the same cd over and over...  the word of God has been my teacher... and if you find a plank in any of what I teach... I expect to hear about it... and just because what I teach may be something you have not heard before, does not necessarily mean I am wrong...  It could mean I have more knowledge or a better understanding on a subject then another...  but feel free to ask and discuss... Oh, and by the way for those who look at me as if I am a legalistic Pharisee... so was Paul, and proud to be one too... as touching the law... he was blameless...  I am fully open to learn and come to better understandings of the NT... that is its purpose according to 2Tim 3:16-17...


2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[memmy]

You do alot for yourself, lively?

As for the Holy Spirit question you had for me. This is what I count on, it certainly is not the work of my self or accomplishments on my own;

"God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him." Philippians 2:13

"As the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more" 2 Corinthians 3:18

"For this is the secret: Christ lives in you" Colossians 1:27 NLT

It sure isn't me, but Him working in me.

[HRoberson]

 

[Livelysword]

You do alot for yourself, lively?

As for the Holy Spirit question you had for me. This is what I count on, it certainly is not the work of my self or accomplishments on my own;

"God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him." Philippians 2:13

"As the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more" 2 Corinthians 3:18

"For this is the secret: Christ lives in you" Colossians 1:27 NLT

It sure isn't me, but Him working in me.

Lively:  Well, I know the Spirit dwelt in those of the first century... and I know each and every one of them manifested the gifts of the Spirit... so if you have the Spirit of God dwelling in you today... what gifts of the Spirit do you manifest?

[memmy]

I can say I'm blessed with the gift of teaching children. As I said, and you must not understand that anything that is good in me is from God. God is good, I on my own am not.

[Livelysword]

I can say I'm blessed with the gift of teaching children. As I said, and you must not understand that anything that is good in me is from God. God is good, I on my own am not.

Lively:  God is indeed Good and and blessed, and kind and full of mercy and Love... forgiving the sins of the Lost who obey the gospel in repentance and remission of sins... and those who are his children having once obeyed the gospel... forgiving sins as we confess them asking his forgiveness...

Being blessed with the gift to teach others is a talent one has as something he desires... its not a spiritual gift given to people to teach children today...  There are all kinds of teachers in this world who are gifted at it... but its not a spiritual gift as many are not even Christians...  I would say that any love to teach children comes from a love for children.... and I believe the rewards are great...  they often just say whats on their minds... are not as mean spirited as adults... do not have the bias... the malice and other things which are so ugly in adults...  whosoever will not accept the kingdom as a child... shall not enter in...  so children and how they function together and get along is often a great model... and often even if one child gets angry with another... the next minute they can be playing together feeling no animosity for the other... and children's minds are like sponges... they soak up everything...  I hope teaching the children is something you enjoy all your life...

[memmy]

I teach children about Jesus.