Modernism and CENI

[mandalee65]

On what issues do you think you may be wrong?

Lively:  If I thought I was wrong on an issue, I would change it and not be wrong on it any more...  when I come to better and more perfect understandings, I change to what the bible teaches me to be....  one issue I changed which I once believed but do not hold to now days is that we today are not indwelt with the Spirit of God... I use to hold to that belief, but do not any more...  when I came to a better understanding I changed my position and accepted the truth I was confronted with...  Yet I know many of the brethren do not hold to what I hold to now... they hold to what I once held to...  and I believe they are about as willing to change their view on the Holy Spirit indwelling them as many on here are willing to change the views they hold to...  the change simply is not happening... and I can understand caution to change until one is fully persuaded in his own mind... and I would not ask anything more of anyone on this board... but they do need some serious study and come to the knowledge of the truth on many things they are in error on...

So at the moment, you think you have all the answers right? You're not wrong about anything?

Wow. I don't know what else to say.

[Livelysword]

On what issues do you think you may be wrong?

Lively:  If I thought I was wrong on an issue, I would change it and not be wrong on it any more...  when I come to better and more perfect understandings, I change to what the bible teaches me to be....  one issue I changed which I once believed but do not hold to now days is that we today are not indwelt with the Spirit of God... I use to hold to that belief, but do not any more...  when I came to a better understanding I changed my position and accepted the truth I was confronted with...  Yet I know many of the brethren do not hold to what I hold to now... they hold to what I once held to...  and I believe they are about as willing to change their view on the Holy Spirit indwelling them as many on here are willing to change the views they hold to...  the change simply is not happening... and I can understand caution to change until one is fully persuaded in his own mind... and I would not ask anything more of anyone on this board... but they do need some serious study and come to the knowledge of the truth on many things they are in error on...

So at the moment, you think you have all the answers right? You're not wrong about anything?

Wow. I don't know what else to say.

Lively:  I will not say I am wrong about nothing... but nothing that I am reading is convicting me to believe I am wrong on anything at this time...  if at some point I teach something and I have it wrong and someone says... he Lively... I think you got this wrong and here is why... and we go and look at it and consider what it states.. if I am wrong, I need to immediately change it... and will do so when I am fully convinced by the verse that I am wrong... and I am fully willing to change anything I am not understanding as I should...  if you find something you are sure I am wrong about... feel free to discuss it with me... I view scripture all the time and look at things both for myself and for others... and I would hope the rest on this board would be of a mind to change anything they believe which they come to the  knowledge of is not what they are currently holding to...  again the purpose of scripture is to instruct and correct us... if we allow it to do its work...  when we say I can not be wrong... then we are unwilling to change anything... as we believe we have it all right...  I am not such a person... I do not fore see a time when I will ever have it all perfectly right...  but I do strive to correct anything I find wrong... and so should everyone...

[DCR]

On what issues do you think you may be wrong?

Lively:  If I thought I was wrong on an issue, I would change it and not be wrong on it any more...  when I come to better and more perfect understandings, I change to what the bible teaches me to be....  one issue I changed which I once believed but do not hold to now days is that we today are not indwelt with the Spirit of God... I use to hold to that belief, but do not any more...  when I came to a better understanding I changed my position and accepted the truth I was confronted with...  Yet I know many of the brethren do not hold to what I hold to now... they hold to what I once held to...  and I believe they are about as willing to change their view on the Holy Spirit indwelling them as many on here are willing to change the views they hold to...  the change simply is not happening... and I can understand caution to change until one is fully persuaded in his own mind... and I would not ask anything more of anyone on this board... but they do need some serious study and come to the knowledge of the truth on many things they are in error on...

Is being wrong on any of those issues cause for one to be lost?  For example, if you continued to believed what you once believed with regard to the Holy Spirit, do you believe that you would be lost?  Do you believe that those who still hold that belief about the Holy Spirit are lost?  Or, are you willing say?

Just wondering how we determine which "issues," if we have the wrong understanding or view, have implications on our salvation.

[Arkstfan]

Lively, does it not concern you that many here grew up and for many adult years believed exactly as you do but through prayer and study came to the conclusion they had been wrong and they changed what they believed and felt sorrow and regret for the way they had treated others as ignorant or rebellious for holding beliefs they now embrace.

I will tell you right now, I do not understand the nature of and personage (if it is fact independent) of the Holy Spirit.  I do not know for sure but suspect that Jesus did not have a complete picture of who he was during most, maybe all of his ministry, to know and remember that presence in Heaven just makes so much of what he did nearly pointless.

I do not claim to know the instant God yells safe and writes your name in the book, I know what we must do to get there but I don't know when he tips the scale.

There is a lot I don't know and each year that passes I find I know less and less.

[Mere Nick]

if at some point I teach something and I have it wrong and someone says... he Lively... I think you got this wrong and here is why... and we go and look at it and consider what it states.. if I am wrong, I need to immediately change it... and will do so when I am fully convinced by the verse that I am wrong... and I am fully willing to change anything I am not understanding as I should...  if you find something you are sure I am wrong about... feel free to discuss it with me... I view scripture all the time and look at things both for myself and for others... and I would hope the rest on this board would be of a mind to change anything they believe which they come to the  knowledge of is not what they are currently holding to...  again the purpose of scripture is to instruct and correct us... if we allow it to do its work...  when we say I can not be wrong... then we are unwilling to change anything... as we believe we have it all right...  I am not such a person... I do not fore see a time when I will ever have it all perfectly right...  but I do strive to correct anything I find wrong... and so should everyone...

If and when you learn anything, does that mean you were a false teacher up unto that point?  Does it mean you were lost?

The reason I ask is the comment from Lancelot regarding what he understands Ketcherside to have said and found fault with it, and you appear to be in agreement.

[DCR]

If and when you learn anything, does that mean you were a false teacher up unto that point?  Does it mean you were lost?

Side note... I recall a fellow of the same basic belief system once posting on these forums who confessed that he had changed his mind on a certain issue... a rather minor issue, as I recall... something most would be content to agree to disagree on among friends, if they even thought it was even an "issue" (I don't even remember what the issue was). 

But, I thought it was interesting that he said he "repented" of believing and teaching his previous view on the issue.  I never thought of the concept of repentance referring to someone just coming around to a different view or opinion on something.  But, some apparently do.

[mandalee65]

If and when you learn anything, does that mean you were a false teacher up unto that point?  Does it mean you were lost?

Side note... I recall a fellow of the same basic belief system once posting on these forums who confessed that he had changed his mind on a certain issue... a rather minor issue, as I recall... something most would be content to agree to disagree on among friends, if they even thought it was even an "issue" (I don't even remember what the issue was). 

But, I thought it was interesting that he said he "repented" of believing and teaching his previous view on the issue.  I never thought of the concept of repentance referring to someone just coming around to a different view or opinion on something.  But, some apparently do.

My FIL once said that if you believe incorrectly about doctrine, you are bound for hell, even if you don't actually practice that belief.

In other words, simply believing that IM was okay was enough to condemn me, even if I didn't practice it at church.

[Mere Nick]

Yes.  I had a fellow tell me that even if you don't have IM at church, even if you don't want it, that simply not agreeing that IM will get you tossed into the gaping maw means you get tossed as well.

Maybe "Amazing Grace" should be changed to "Ain't No Grace".

[Arkstfan]

A former congregation got marked a disfellowshipped for stating on the web site that IM is optional and they opted to not use it.

[James.]

[Livelysword]

Lively, does it not concern you that many here grew up and for many adult years believed exactly as you do but through prayer and study came to the conclusion they had been wrong and they changed what they believed and felt sorrow and regret for the way they had treated others as ignorant or rebellious for holding beliefs they now embrace.

I will tell you right now, I do not understand the nature of and personage (if it is fact independent) of the Holy Spirit.  I do not know for sure but suspect that Jesus did not have a complete picture of who he was during most, maybe all of his ministry, to know and remember that presence in Heaven just makes so much of what he did nearly pointless.

I do not claim to know the instant God yells safe and writes your name in the book, I know what we must do to get there but I don't know when he tips the scale.

There is a lot I don't know and each year that passes I find I know less and less.

Lively:  I know the exact point and time God writes my name in the book of life...  it was at that moment I was baptized... and its the same for every man who gets his name written in the book of life... we become children of God when we are baptized... the children have their names written in heaven...  but such does not mean from the moment we are baptized and have our names written in heaven, that we can not also have our names blotted out of the book of life... that is the book our names are written in... in the book of life...  and that life will be eternal life when freed from this body...


Luk 10:20  Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.


what is the tense above with the word "ARE"?  Is that the same tense as will be?

[Arkstfan]

Those were pre-crucifixion disciples.

[Livelysword]

Those were pre-crucifixion disciples.

Lively:  Like that matters right... go read Revelation... those who have their names written in the book of life... is that pre crucifixion as well?

[HRoberson]

En re: OP....

I think an argument could be made that CENI was in fact an outgrowth of the modern method.

The concept behind CENI is that we can find definitive commands, specific examples, and necessary inferences supporting the derived requirements in Scripture. A love of debating grows out of the same mindset - even though we may be debating esoteric ideas, we still believe that we can muster enough evidence using a (quasi-) scientific approach to Scripture.

Granted, it is a flawed concept if taken as a modern technique, but there is also bad science that attempts to use the same modern approaches.

CENI as a general concept is probably OK; as an iron-clad support for whatever I have deduced, it isn't so great.

[Livelysword]

En re: OP....

I think an argument could be made that CENI was in fact an outgrowth of the modern method.

The concept behind CENI is that we can find definitive commands, specific examples, and necessary inferences supporting the derived requirements in Scripture. A love of debating grows out of the same mindset - even though we may be debating esoteric ideas, we still believe that we can muster enough evidence using a (quasi-) scientific approach to Scripture.

Granted, it is a flawed concept if taken as a modern technique, but there is also bad science that attempts to use the same modern approaches.

CENI as a general concept is probably OK; as an iron-clad support for whatever I have deduced, it isn't so great.

Lively:  No, CENIS has been used by all the writers of the NT... and by all the prophets...  every time one of them stated.. is it not written in the book of...  every time Jesus stated... it is written... or have ye not read what David said by the Holy Ghost... or what did moses command?