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Offline jb728b

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Problems with the cofC
« on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 08:14:31 »
I have read many of the post and there are those who have problems with the church of Christ.  Without arguing, and mostly out of curiosity, I wish to know what these problems are and the reasons for them.  Feel free to provide scripture (with context) to support the position.

The only requirement is an open mind, but not so open that one's brain falls out.

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Problems with the cofC
« on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 08:14:31 »

Robert Pate

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 08:34:02 »
I have read many of the post and there are those who have problems with the church of Christ.  Without arguing, and mostly out of curiosity, I wish to know what these problems are and the reasons for them.  Feel free to provide scripture (with context) to support the position.

The only requirement is an open mind, but not so open that one's brain falls out.

jb728b

The biggest problem with the CofC is the emphasis on water baptism.

Many believe that their salvation is dependent on their being baptized.

This doctrine is anti-gospel. What we do has nothing to do with our salvation.  Salvation took place over 2000 years ago by the work and person of Jesus Christ.  It took place completely outside of us, we had nothing to do with it.  This salvation that is in Jesus Christ is ours by faith alone.  Everything that is necessary for the salvation of lost humanity has been accomplished in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8  "For by grace (God's goodness) are you saved, AND NOT THAT OF YOURSELF. it is a gift from God."

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 08:34:02 »

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 09:15:01 »
I have read many of the post and there are those who have problems with the church of Christ.  Without arguing, and mostly out of curiosity, I wish to know what these problems are and the reasons for them.  Feel free to provide scripture (with context) to support the position.

The only requirement is an open mind, but not so open that one's brain falls out.

There isn't one "church of Christ," a couple hundred years of autonomy accomplished that.  I don't believe all who wear that banner are works-based salvation, boast in baptism types, as is the typical response.  I do believe there are some though.

Offline jb728b

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 09:36:38 »
TOPIC PLEASE!

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 09:36:38 »

Offline spurly

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 09:57:19 »

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 09:57:19 »



Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 09:58:43 »
TOPIC PLEASE!

 ???

I split off some posts that were off-topic, as this thread is to be about folks problems with the CofC.

Robert Pate

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #6 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 11:11:22 »
TOPIC PLEASE!

 ???

I split off some posts that were off-topic, as this thread is to be about folks problems with the CofC.

Does this mean you are not going to answer my question as to how faith is not a mental assent to a truth?

Offline savedbyhim

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #7 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 11:56:53 »
I have read many of the post and there are those who have problems with the church of Christ.  Without arguing, and mostly out of curiosity, I wish to know what these problems are and the reasons for them.  Feel free to provide scripture (with context) to support the position.

The only requirement is an open mind, but not so open that one's brain falls out.

I have always been in the church of Christ, put there by Jesus Himself when I became a Christian at 15 years old. But over the 32 years since that day I have observed one thing in particular that bothers me greatly about the body of believers known as the CofC....the overwhelming focus on the church itself. It seems to me that there is more of a push to convert people to the "brotherhood" or the doctrinal mannerisms of the CofC than to convert one to a lasting faith in Christ.

I mean, it's simple, if you convert a person to Jesus Christ and they respond to His gospel with obedient faith....that person will be a member of the only "church" that Christ ever established. Christ will add him or her to His "church" by His own doing.

I do believe that the CofC has VERY GOOD intentions with promoting non-denominational Christianity....having doctrines and practices based solely on the NT teachings....but I'm convinced that the focus must be taken off of the church and placed back on center with Jesus and Him crucified. Allow people to grow spiritually in Christ as a real Savior, not just teach them to comply with the understandings of the CofC.

I'm sure there are people in the CofC who will be disappointed with me for saying these things, but I really feel that the CofC needs to take a long look at itself and see whether it is really the example of being God's people as the CofC claims to be.

Is this the type of discussion you were seeking jb728b?



marc

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #8 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 15:10:31 »
Improper capitalization, for one.

Offline Harold

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 15:50:15 »
The Lord allows men to interpret His Word to the exclusion of all others.

I belong to Christ's church.

FTL

marc

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 16:38:24 »
The Lord allows men to interpret His Word to the exclusion of all others.

I belong to Christ's church.

FTL

No, you see no one interprets the Bible; people simply read it.  That's what I used to hear.

The times, they are a-changing though.  As was (relevantly) suggested above, the Church of Christ is not one single-minded entity.  There is too much good going on for people to focus solely on the contrary.

Offline Harold

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #11 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 16:43:13 »
The Lord allows men to interpret His Word to the exclusion of all others.

I belong to Christ's church.

FTL

No, you see no one interprets the Bible; people simply read it.  That's what I used to hear.

The times, they are a-changing though.  As was (relevantly) suggested above, the Church of Christ is not one single-minded entity.  There is too much good going on for people to focus solely on the contrary.

Amen my brother.

FTL

Offline Serenity432001

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #12 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 20:55:08 »
Since your asking, here are my personal complaints:

1.  Think they are the only ones going to heaven and that they have the monopoly on God.

2.  Think those who play instruments during worship are sinning and will be lost for that reason.

3.  More emphases on rules and regulations instead of relationships.

4.  Not enough emphases on grace and giving folks room to mess up.

5.  Too many mask wearers and not enough folks being real showing their faults and mistakes.

This is not true of EVERYONE in the cofc.  I know that.  I'm just saying these are some of the observations I personally had that caused me to take another look at the church of Christ.   

da525382

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 21:01:40 »
Since your asking, here are my personal complaints:

1.  Think they are the only ones going to heaven and that they have the monopoly on God.

2.  Think those who play instruments during worship are sinning and will be lost for that reason.

3.  More emphases on rules and regulations instead of relationships.

4.  Not enough emphases on grace and giving folks room to mess up.

5.  Too many mask wearers and not enough folks being real showing their faults and mistakes.

This is not true of EVERYONE in the cofc.  I know that.  I'm just saying these are some of the observations I personally had that caused me to take another look at the church of Christ.   

Very understandable, Serenity.

Robert Pate

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 21:09:12 »
Since your asking, here are my personal complaints:

1.  Think they are the only ones going to heaven and that they have the monopoly on God.

2.  Think those who play instruments during worship are sinning and will be lost for that reason.

3.  More emphases on rules and regulations instead of relationships.

4.  Not enough emphases on grace and giving folks room to mess up.

5.  Too many mask wearers and not enough folks being real showing their faults and mistakes.

This is not true of EVERYONE in the cofc.  I know that.  I'm just saying these are some of the observations I personally had that caused me to take another look at the church of Christ.   

I think that is a good description of organized religion in general.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 21:09:31 »
As others have said the CoC is not one group any more and the problems are with the ultrconservative, legalistic wing.  Here are a couple of issues.

1.  CoC was established in 33AD.  No it is a US prodouct of the 18th century second great awaking.

2. CoC has restored the 1st century church of the NT.  No there is no one pattern for worship or the 5 acts of worship.

3.  They wear a Bible name  for the church.  No the assembly had no name.

4.  "We are christians only".  No they are CoC christians and think they are the only Christians.

These are a few and I also many on this board could add others.

  

da525382

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 21:14:10 »
As others have said the CoC is not one group any more and the problems are with the ultrconservative, legalistic wing.  Here are a couple of issues.

1.  CoC was established in 33AD.  No it is a US prodouct of the 18th century second great awaking.

2. CoC has restored the 1st century church of the NT.  No there is no one pattern for worship or the 5 acts of worship.

3.  They wear a Bible name  for the church.  No the assembly had no name.

4.  "We are christians only".  No they are CoC christians and think they are the only Christians.

These are a few and I also many on this board could add others.

  

Johnb,  I guess it's the images I remember.....You know, the picture of the cofC preacher in his dark suit with the characteristic scorn on his face saying things like "But we believe it wasn't an APPLE that Adam and Eve ate".....because WE believe the Bible!  You know, as if everyone else in the world proclaiming Jesus as Lord has absolutely no inkling that a Bible exists........By the way, how's retirement going?  I remember you talking about the beautiful place you live, with all the land.....Hope you and your family are doing well!

Offline Johnb

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #17 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 21:28:02 »
Thanks for asking da.  Retirement is going well.  If it were not for having all my children and grand childern on the same property I think we would sell out and get a codo where you don't even have to mow the grass.  Not really but it doesw cross our mind.  I am going to see an orthopedic MD tomorrow.  I will get a new hip soon.

Here is another one for the topic.  Makes a doctrine from sielence (IM) and makes it a test of fellowship.

marc

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #18 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 21:28:42 »
I could definitely give you a list because I have been confronted today with some of our wrost thinking.  However, I have also recently come into contact with some very positive aspects of our fellowship and quite a bit of hope for the future.  Some of this was in Nashville, some was in my home congregation, some was even while fellowshipping some membes of conservative congregations.

I believe that our autonomy will allow us to move into the future as we realize our faults, and I have faith that a large portion of our membership--a larger portion than of our leadership--wants to move forward.  

I think that's always been the case.  I've always known individuals who were more willing to fellowship other Christians than their congregations were.  Those without an investment in the leadership structure have more flexibility to move where God leads them. And by the same token, our loose organizational structure provides us with this same flexibility.  That's why we're seeing real change take place.

Even on a day when I was presented with a dark cloud, I remain hopeful that the skies are clearing.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 21:33:19 »
Marc said


I believe that our autonomy will allow us to move into the future as we realize our faults, and I have faith that a large portion of our membership--a larger portion than of our leadership--wants to move forward. 


I also found this to be true even in some of the congregations lead by the most legalistic.

Offline Barabbas

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jul 31, 2008 - 23:06:05 »
To gain some insight why some may have problems with the coC you might want to read from this website : 

http://www.unc.edu/~elliott/VofC/index.html 

It has postings from a book "Voices of Concern".

I especially found the writings of Laurie Hibbett well written and insightful:

Quote
She knew there were others in the Church of Christ who would have preferred meditation to small talk before the service. She felt they were needlessly deprived of the visible symbol of the cross as well as of the meaning of the cross in the Christian faith. She saw them as a people who cannot admit the cross into their buildings or into their hearts, for to be confronted by the cross would be to lose all sense of earned salvation.

So the baptistery, instead, looms high in the Church of Christ building-as in its teachings. The cross features only an incident in the life of Him who, as they teach, made baptism the chief condition of salvation. Reconciliation, therefore, is not a gift, fully effected by Jesus on the cross. It is a reward, earned by man through obedience in baptism.

In the Church of Christ auditorium had she looked to left or right of the pulpit, her eye would have met a score board with postings of statistics. Straight ahead in dead center would be a stage where later a preacher would star as sole performer. He would flex his closed Bible at the congregation. He would say which verse is requisite to salvation, which is not. His sermon would be the core of the service. Beneath the stage, at the very foot of the preacher, would lie the body and blood of our Lord. She groaned inwardly and covered her face with her hands.

Lord, have mercy upon us.

Christ, have mercy upon us
.


By the way... I do see many in the CoC changing things for the better.   ::smile::



Offline Jimbob

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #21 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 07:21:03 »
Marc, thanks for your posts.  They may help jb728b wade through some of the misconceptions (and some out right lies) elsewhere in the thread.


Offline Serenity432001

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #22 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 07:30:40 »
I appreciate Robert pointing out that it isn't just the cofc with problems but organized religion in general.  Since all of them are made up of humans, there are going to be problems and I think that is good to remember.

I also think what marc shared is very good to remember.  That just because we do have problems and some very narrow views, there are also those who really want to do God's will, in the church of Christ.  There are people in the church of Christ who do love, serve, and preach grace.  Whats sad is like everything else, it seems to be the "narrow" views that give the world our reputation for some reason but maybe, just maybe, if those of us who do preach grace and continue to love and serve, we can see that change!   I'm very hopeful as well.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #23 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 07:44:55 »
jmg said
Marc, thanks for your posts.  They may help jb728b wade through some of the misconceptions (and some out right lies) elsewhere in the thread.

As Marc pointed out the CoC is not static but a church experiencing change.  The comments are aimed at the ultra conservative wing that has been so hurtful to so many.  I think he asks because there are more web sites sponsered by coc members and ex members than possibly any other group.  There is evem 1 or 2 sites that are aimed at healing recovering coc members and ex members.  Folks are not lying.  Lifes have been turn upside down and many have lost faith and divide familys because of the self righeous leagalistic wing.  Thank God that wing is srinking and losing its power over others in the coc.

Offline Serenity432001

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #24 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 07:48:05 »
jmg said
Marc, thanks for your posts.  They may help jb728b wade through some of the misconceptions (and some out right lies) elsewhere in the thread.

As Marc pointed out the CoC is not static but a church experiencing change.  The comments are aimed at the ultra conservative wing that has been so hurtful to so many.  I think he asks because there are more web sites sponsered by coc members and ex members than possibly any other group.  There is evem 1 or 2 sites that are aimed at healing recovering coc members and ex members.  Folks are not lying.  Lifes have been turn upside down and many have lost faith and divide familys because of the self righeous leagalistic wing.  Thank God that wing is srinking and losing its power over others in the coc.

 ::amen!::

da525382

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #25 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 07:54:11 »
jmg said
Marc, thanks for your posts.  They may help jb728b wade through some of the misconceptions (and some out right lies) elsewhere in the thread.

As Marc pointed out the CoC is not static but a church experiencing change.  The comments are aimed at the ultra conservative wing that has been so hurtful to so many.  I think he asks because there are more web sites sponsered by coc members and ex members than possibly any other group.  There is evem 1 or 2 sites that are aimed at healing recovering coc members and ex members.  Folks are not lying.  Lifes have been turn upside down and many have lost faith and divide familys because of the self righeous leagalistic wing.  Thank God that wing is srinking and losing its power over others in the coc.

Amen.  And there is not a greater tragedy than to see the near permanent struggle in the lives of those who were hurt, coming out of that background is like the disabled learning to walk again or talk again. 

Offline Johnb

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #26 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 07:57:39 »
Here is another one.

"We have scriptural organization"  (Meaning having elders who act as a board of directors and make all decisions for an assembly, deacons to serve but usually are not the ones who do the actual serving, and a preacher to wow the party line.  There is IMO no offices in the assembly and no over under concept but Christians yeiding to one another.  There is no pattern to appoint folks to these offices found in the scriptures.

Offline johntwayne

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #27 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 08:03:38 »
I am the problem with the church of Christ. You see, I am a sinner. I must pray the sinner's prayer constantly--God be merciful to me the sinner.

Among my sins is my habit of judging my fellow members in the church of Christ. Jesus said that I should first remove the beam that is my eye so I could see clearly to help my brother. I fear the beam shall never be removed as I have struggled with it for so many years. When I see those that are narrow minded, judgmental, and those who put too much emphasis on works and baptism I get rankled until I remember that I too am a sinner. There are so many others, certainly the majority, who are simply trying to be Christians. I try to focus on them, but its hard to do so; for you see, I am a sinner.

So I am the problem with the church of Christ.

I think I will let Jesus judge the church. As for me, I've got a beam to struggle with.



« Last Edit: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 08:11:55 by johntwayne »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #28 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 08:11:07 »
Johnb, since I was not specific about what points had been lies, your defense of the lies seem irrational.  You don't even know to what I'm referring.  Those who've been shown repeatedly that some of the untruths they spread are misconceptions yet continue to do so are choosing to continue to spread untruths. 

When you purposefully continue to spread such things when others have shown them not to be so, yes, that's dishonest.

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #29 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 08:11:57 »
I am the problem with the church of Christ. You see, I am a sinner. I must pray the sinner's prayer constantly--God be merciful to me the sinner.

Among my sins is my habit of judging my fellow members in the church of Christ. Jesus said that I should first remove the beam that is my eye so I could see clearly to help my brother. I fear the beam shall never be removed as I have struggled with it for so many years. When I see those that are narrow minded, judgmental, and those who put too much emphasis on works and baptism I get rankled until I remember that I too am a sinner. There are so many others, certainly the majority, who are simply trying to be Christians. I try to focus on them, but its hard to do so; for you see, I am a sinner.

So I am the problem with the church of Christ.


::nodding::  Me, too.

Memphis Dwight

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Problem with COFC
« Reply #30 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 08:12:40 »
The problem that I have with "the cofC"  is that many of the leaders tend to believe that there are only two ways to be: liberal or conservative.    Its this liberal versus conservative nonsense that drives people crazy.    Sometimes God's way is neither one but a third option. 
And when it comes to talking about marriage/divorce, you might as well be hittin you head against a brick wall  ::frustrated:: 
When they can't refute what you're showing them they say "I'll just stick with what Jesus said".   

Offline Jaime

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #31 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 08:24:39 »
When they can't refute what you're showing them they say "I'll just stick with what Jesus said".  

That's my pet peave with others as well. That is not just a cofc trait, as evidenced by most of the theology forum lately.
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 15:09:45 by Jaime »

Robert Pate

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #32 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 09:02:25 »
I am the problem with the church of Christ. You see, I am a sinner. I must pray the sinner's prayer constantly--God be merciful to me the sinner.

Among my sins is my habit of judging my fellow members in the church of Christ. Jesus said that I should first remove the beam that is my eye so I could see clearly to help my brother. I fear the beam shall never be removed as I have struggled with it for so many years. When I see those that are narrow minded, judgmental, and those who put too much emphasis on works and baptism I get rankled until I remember that I too am a sinner. There are so many others, certainly the majority, who are simply trying to be Christians. I try to focus on them, but its hard to do so; for you see, I am a sinner.

So I am the problem with the church of Christ.

I think I will let Jesus judge the church. As for me, I've got a beam to struggle with.





The Spirit of Christ and organized religion are not compatible.  You are not the problem in the church.  The problem with the church is that it is full of Pharisees.  If you are going to confess that you are a sinner in the church they will look for a way to get rid of you.  Sinners are not really welcome in todays organized church. 

Offline Johnb

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #33 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 09:35:40 »
jmg
Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying.  If so I am sorry.  I understood you to be saying there were lies and misconception about the coc on this thread.  If you were talking about misconceptions like all cocs march in lock step and spiritually abuse their members then yes I agree.  The coc is now a very diverse group so much so that some wings will not even fellowship some others.  However, I see signs that many are returning to the concept of truely wanting to be just Christains and are developing grace centered loving fellowships.  I just wish there were a coc group like that near where I live.

Offline DCR

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Re: Problems with the cofC
« Reply #34 on: Fri Aug 01, 2008 - 09:44:50 »
I am the problem with the church of Christ. You see, I am a sinner. I must pray the sinner's prayer constantly--God be merciful to me the sinner.

Among my sins is my habit of judging my fellow members in the church of Christ. Jesus said that I should first remove the beam that is my eye so I could see clearly to help my brother. I fear the beam shall never be removed as I have struggled with it for so many years. When I see those that are narrow minded, judgmental, and those who put too much emphasis on works and baptism I get rankled until I remember that I too am a sinner. There are so many others, certainly the majority, who are simply trying to be Christians. I try to focus on them, but its hard to do so; for you see, I am a sinner.

So I am the problem with the church of Christ.

I think I will let Jesus judge the church. As for me, I've got a beam to struggle with.





::amen::

Me too.  And, have some manna.

 

     
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