Procedures

[marc]

The flu has me feeling a bit cantankerous, so I'm going to spit it right out.

I think our downfall in the Church of Christ is that we put too much stock in procedures.  Acts of worship.  Ordered steps to salvation.  Church organization.  Church name.

istm that, biblically, we read a ton in the NT about love and holiness and the like, and mercifully little about procedures and patterns. If we're going to be the New Testament church, shouldn't our focus match the focus of the NT?

Can anyone show me very simply from the NT that we should be intimately concerned about procedures?

[Livelysword]

The flu has me feeling a bit cantankerous, so I'm going to spit it right out.

I think our downfall in the Church of Christ is that we put too much stock in procedures.  Acts of worship.  Ordered steps to salvation.  Church organization.  Church name.

istm that, biblically, we read a ton in the NT about love and holiness and the like, and mercifully little about procedures and patterns. If we're going to be the New Testament church, shouldn't our focus match the focus of the NT?

Can anyone show me very simply from the NT that we should be intimately concerned about procedures?

Lively:   1Co 14:40  Let all things be done decently and in order.

[marc]

Which specifically means what? In context, it seems to mean not interrupting each other and being polite. 
what do you see in the context?

[Livelysword]

Which specifically means what? In context, it seems to mean not interrupting each other and being polite. 
what do you see in the context?

Lively:  What are you looking for... opening prayer, sing two or three songs, have communion, take a collection, sing another song, preach the word and offer an invitation and sing one more song and close with a prayer?  Regardless of that which we do, let it all be done decently and in order...  in the above in the chapter, I see singing and teaching or preaching the word, as well as to pray, amongst explanation of how spiritual gifts should be handled in worship...  chapter 11 tells us to have communion, and chapter 16 tells us to take up a collection...  again let all things be done decently and in order...  was there a specific order?  Only concerning some usage of spiritual gifts within the assembly...

[Bocephus]

The flu has me feeling a bit cantankerous, so I'm going to spit it right out.

I think our downfall in the Church of Christ is that we put too much stock in procedures.  Acts of worship.  Ordered steps to salvation.  Church organization.  Church name.

istm that, biblically, we read a ton in the NT about love and holiness and the like, and mercifully little about procedures and patterns. If we're going to be the New Testament church, shouldn't our focus match the focus of the NT?

Can anyone show me very simply from the NT that we should be intimately concerned about procedures?

I think the concern about procedures is done out of a need to show difference between others in order to continue to justify separating from the rest of Christianity.  There is a element of pride to it.

[marc]

Lively, what I'm looking for is some indication that procedures are important.  I spelled it out in the OP.

[blituri]

Jesus told the Samaritan woman that worship was not in PLACE of houses on mountains but the PLACE of the human spirit or mind.  The lowly woman understood what fee even now grasp.

John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ:
        when he is come, he will tell us all things.
John 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

TELL and SPEAK is what you do when you worship IN SPIRIT and in TRUTH.

IN SPIRIT is IN a PLACE in contrast to Houses Built by Human hands at Gerezim or Zion. Paul said that the Jews now worshipped IN THE SPIRIT as opposed to IN THE FLESH. Philippians 3.  That was to EXCLUDE those Paul called DOGS. These were the CYNICS and I will resist telling you all of the dirty truth about them.

IN TRUTH means using "that which is written" or Scripture (Rom 15), The SPIRIT or Word of Christ (Eph 5; John 6:63) or The Word of Christ in Colossians 3.

WORSHIP MUST BE IN TRUTH

Aletheia TRUTH opposite a lie or appearance. The ORACLES of God.

EXAMPLE: GREEK LAW OUTLAWED POETS OR PHILOSOPHERS FROM BEING PRESBYTERS OR KERUSSOS.

[300c] written rules about anything whatsoever
        is to prohibit any violation of them whatsoever,
        either by one person or by a greater number.

Peter left a MEMORY of the eye and ear witness. He outlawed private interpretation which means "further expounding." You speak the ORACLES of God without adding expanding it.  That is an ABSOLUTE throughout the Bible.

http://www.piney.com/2.Peter.1.html

In Romans 14 Paul used ARISKOS which marked the CYNICS: this excluded self-pleasure and specificially any opinion made by popular decision defined as doubtful disputations in Romans 14.

Aletheia EXCLUDES:  Mimema anything imitated, counterfeit, copy, Lura a stringed instrument with a sounding-board. Used to imiate sounds. II.lyric poetry and music, Pl.Lg.809c, 809e

    MIMEMA or speakers, singers or instrument players by DEFINITION make COUNTERFEITS like the Scribes and Pharisees Jesus defined as HYPOCRITES naming speakers, singers and instrument players.

Aletheia is used of the ORACLES of a "god."  Because God gave HIS oracles, Peter made a great divide between the assembly as EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE as a school of the Bible and our service for which the SCHOOL prepares us.

WHAT IS THE GOAL?

Heb. 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,
       ye have need that one teach you again which be
       the first principles of the oracles of God;
       and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

The purpose for the assembly (ekklesia, synagogue) is defined CLEARLY in most of the letters and the historic church practiced what they knew to be the truth.  Hebrews 5 defines the PURPOSE for the assembly: the Lord's Supper is to show forth which means teach the death of christ as an evangelism word.   

If you have a gift or talent, Peter is absolutely clear about the two arenas of life:

1Pet. 4:10 As every man hath received the gift,
       even so minister the same one to another,
       as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
 
1Pet. 4:11 If any man speak,
       let him speak as the oracles of God; That defines IN TRUTH
       if any man minister,
             let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:
             that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ,
             to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

In Romans 15 after prohibiting SELF-pleasure or anything used to "create mental excitement" that we use one mind and one mouth speaking "that which is written." That is the way to GLORIFY or praise God with what Paul went on to defines as Scriptures which also give us COMFORT rather than pouring on the scouldings and guilt.

Christ in Isaiah 55 defined our REST as NOT seeking our own pleasure or SPEAKING OUR OWN WORDS.

[marc]

Cutting through all the extra words, you are saying that "in truth" implies regulated procedures?  If so, where are these found? Please quote them.

[marc]

Additionally, does the meaning of "truth" in the NT usually refer to regulations?  Is there a scripture to back this up?  One such as, say, John 14:6?

[blituri]

No, READING the words, "IN TRUTH means the ORACLES OF GOD."

In TRUTH is the opposite of whatever humans can compose as songs or sermons.

THE PROCEDURE made certain for the synagogue or Church in the Wilderness was:

To REST specificially rest from what was called "worship services" and especially quarantined from the temple.

# 2 was to READ the Word of God. People always wrote and the elders of small groups would have text or a good memory. The synagogue was always to READ a set portion of Scripture so you could READ the whole thing. READING kept people's doubtful disputations out.

# 3 was to REHEARSE the word: they didn't sing as ACTS of worship but to MEMORIZE the text. Responsive speaking the text back and forth was to TEACH and ENCOURAGE one another.

Paul said speak ONE TO ANOTHER.

Christ in Spirit excluded vocal or instrumental rejoicing which would destroy BIBLE CLASS.  This was the Holy Convocation on the first and seventh days of festivals and on the REST day in every small cluster of people.

The SPIRITUAL people always attended synagogue "which had no praise service" and that is what Jesus attended and endorsed if don't properly. He STOOD UP to read and SAT DOWN for dialog.  That was the synagogue as ENDORSED by James and the elders:

Acts 15:21 For Moses
     of old time hath
     in every city them
     that preach him,
     being read
     in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Because it was now the death of Jesus which was to be remembered, because they were PREACHING JESUS by READING JESUS, the Lord's Supper was added to show forth meaning to "evangelize." It is a visual aid to preach the death of Christ and not a time to sing, hum or clap.

They never passed the collection plate: remember Jesus cast them out of the temple court. They had a POOR BOX for the poor.

The same was true for the church: the only example is for those who "prospered" and were willing to make a ONE TIME gift to the "destitute" or famished.  Proportional giving is defined in history as "those who prospered during the week might give to poor but only if they were willing." That was from the first day's daylabor because the first day was a work day.

So, you are left with a progrem of TWO STEPS: Meet to read and memorize the Wors of Christ--the oracles of God--, observe the Lord's Supper as an act of evangelism

Those two steps were the goals of the Campbells knowing that everyone in the community could meet for Bible study if, as in Romans 14, no one had doubtful discussions.

Church was A SCHOOL OF CHRIST
Worship was READING AND MUSING THE WORD OF GOD.
Then, Lord's Supper each week but this was not forced.

ANYTHING you add to that is based on refusing to SPEAK THE ORACLES OF GOD which absolutely means speak where the Bible speaks.  There are another 167 hours to do whatever you want to do.

[marc]

Which, of course, leaves you in the position of saying that singing in worship is itself wrong.  I understand your position, but doubt anyone else here would agree.  

Anyone?

My response, btw, is:

 16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

[blituri]

Whatever you see happening at the food stalls at the Agora or marketplace which is the only place people might be disturbed by someone eating a leg of lamb, stays in the marketplace.  Paul outlaws doubtful disputations which arise out of your own mind.  Everything is excluded from the synagogue (Romans 15) which does not EDIFY: in this context it means EDUCATE.

Having excluded SELF-pleasure in Romans 15 the simple definition of words excludes everything calcualated to create mental excitement: this is the laded burden Jesus died to remove meaning "creating spiritual anxiety through religious rituals." A burden in both Hebrew and Greek was the type of music rejected by Jesus when He identified the Scribes and Pharisees (those on the payroll) as hypocrites by naming speakers, singers and instrument players.

The SOLE activity Paul defined in Romans 15 is to use one MIND and one MOUTH to speak "that which is written" which he defined as Scripture. That is the only way to glorify or praise God who wrote all of the songs and sermons and Paul outlawed further expounding.

As a matter of fact ALL of the sects in Rome were highly addicted to music which would DISABLE edification or education.

Judging people would be to refuse to do Bible reading and study with someone who was identified by their DIET in the marketplace.  Things in the marketplace had no KINGDOM connection.  That is where all of the preaching, singing, playing and selling stuff went on. Jesus consigned the pipers, singers and dancers to the marketplace!

They would be judging you if they brought their OLDEN religious practices into the SYNAGOGUE or class room.

When Paul speaks of the weak he includes the INFIRM.  In the Latin:

Sustinere  I. to hold up, hold upright, uphold, to bear up, keep up, support, sustain 1.To sustain, support, maintain, by food, money, or other means (maintain, preserve with dignity of a citizen II. Concr., the citizens united in a community, the body - politic, the state, and as this consists of one city and its territory, or of several cities, it differs from urbs, i.e. the compass of the dwellings of the collected citizens;

The assembly is:

Concilium is the same as Latin ecclesia or Greek sulloge or synagogue. I.a collection of people, an association, gathering, union, meeting A.An assembly for consultation pastorum pasco  2.To feed, nourish, maintain, support, 3.To cherish, cultivate, let grow, feed

4. Of animals, to graze, browse.

Pastors Biblically the ELDERS have the job of FEEDING them and PROTECTING them from the wolves.

The pastor does not mix in brambles or try to PREDIGEST the food. He NEVER leads the lambs to pastures to the sounds of RUSHING WATERS.

THAT'S IT: that is taught in the ORACLES of God over and over and no one can be ACCIDENTIALLY mistaken and make church for "Entertaining the Goats" or tolerating the Dogs or Wolves.

Lord, I tremble when "pastors" feed people on husk and tell the owners "get over it or get out."

I feel quite confortable with being one of the tiny few "odd balls out" because the remnant will be OUTSIDE the mega camps suffering reproaces. 

[marc]

Interesting choice of passages!

Romans 15
 1We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."[a] 4For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

 5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. 8For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written:
   "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
      I will sing hymns to your name."[c] 10Again, it says,
   "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."[d] 11And again,
   "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
      and sing praises to him, all you peoples."[e] 12And again, Isaiah says,
   "The Root of Jesse will spring up,
      one who will arise to rule over the nations;
   the Gentiles will hope in him."[f]

 13May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.


'course they were just to sing in the marketplace. 

[blituri]

Don't look for PATTERNISMS to impose on others as their JUDGEMENT (punishment).
Paul writes POINTERS: they POINT to the prophecies of Christ. Peter said that Jesus Christ made these prophecies MORE CERTAIN and that is what we should give heed to (the only worship word) so that the DayStar will arise in our hearts.

HOW TO CONDUCT SYNAGOGUE

Paul EXCLUDED the private diversities in Romans 14 because nothing that comes out of a human imagination has any thing to add to the Word of God. To claim to do so is legalism.

The SYNAGOGUE was held at least weekly to TEACH the Word of God (only). That would prepare people to return to the world and be able to minister to others. You cannot "upset the comfort zones" of people to boil them like frogs to make a place for yourself in the flow of Divine information.  For instance, a legitimate sermon would be to READ Romans 15 and look at the PROPHECIES he is expounding (once for all).

You will find that the ROLE of Messiah was to give power to His synagogue or ekklesia to be a school (only) of HIS words (only).  Christ in Spirit spoke through the writing prophets. He did not speak through the king's STAR GAZER'S or the kings Scribes: Jesus defined them as hypocrites.  Appealing to Hezekiah's plague stopping contract as authority to IMPOSE instruments KNOWING that they will distress and even destroy those they are WAGED to protect and console, is, I believe a  DIRECT COMMAND of some spirit to remove the candlestick of a congregation built totally on sermonizing about himself.

SELF-pleasure for the ASSEMBLY does in fact OUTLAW all of the performing arts and artists.

Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime
        were written for our learning, [A disciple goes to SCHOOL, not a worship center]
        that we through patience and comfort [paraklēsis]
        of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom. 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation
        grant you to be likeminded one toward another
        according to Christ Jesus:

God has NO grace for people who with a high hand count the cost and decide they can loose half of the OWNERS.

Rom. 15:6 That ye may with
        one mind and one mouth glorify God,
        even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom. 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another,
        as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

NEXT PAUL DEFINES THE REASON WE AS DISCIPLES GO TO BIBLE CLASS UNDER JESUS CHRIST when the elders (only) teach that which has been taught.

WHICH DEMANDS SENDING OUT EVANGELISTS TO ALL NATIONS

Rom. 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision
        for the truth of God,
        to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

He made the prophecies MORE CERTAIN therefore we CANNOT further expound that which is perfect.

Rom. 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy;
        as it is written,
        For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles,
                [Acknowledge, homologeo assent, covenant]
        and sing [psallo] unto thy name.

This is like the NOT musical passages:
     External: we SPEAK one to another that which is written (the Oracles of God)
     Internal:  we sing AND make melody (grace) IN the heart TO God. He doesn't listen to sounds (Isaiah 11)

    Quoting the Psalmist speaking of Messiah

    Psa. 18:48 He delivereth me from mine enemies:
            yea, thou liftest me up above those that rise up against me:
            thou hast delivered me from the violent man.

    Psa. 18:49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O LORD,
            External: among the heathen [NATIONS] [revere or worship with extended hands, bemoan]
            Internal:and sing praises unto THY NAME

Rom. 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, [be in a GOOD frame of MIND]
        ye Gentiles, with his people.

Rom. 15:11 And again, Praise the Lord,
        [g136 Aionos A story told as the way to praise God
        You just sound silly saying, praise God, praise God, praise God and tell YOUR story.

all ye Gentiles; and laud him,  [commend, laud]
        all ye people.

HERE IS HOW JESUS CHRIST
         External: SPEAKS OR CONFESSES TO THE GENTILES
         Internal: AND SINGS UNTO THE LORD THROUGH APOSTLES AND PROPHETS

Rom. 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse,
        and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles;
        in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Rom. 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing,
        that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Rom. 15:14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren,
        that ye also are full of goodness,
        filled with all knowledge,
        able also to admonish one another.

AGAIN: THE PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH GATHERS TO TEACH AND ADMONISH ONE ANOTHER.

THE ONE ANOTHER IS THE ONE ANOTHER IS THE ONE ANOTHER

Rom. 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren,
        I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort,
        as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

Rom. 15:16 That I should be
        the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles,
        ministering the gospel of God,
        that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable,
        being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

THE PREACHERS SING UNTO THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST
WHEN THEY HAVE CONFESSED AMONG THE GENTILES.
THIS IS NOT A WORSHIP SERVICE.

Rom. 15:21 But as it is written,
        To whom he was not spoken of,
        they shall see:
        and they that have not heard shall understand.

But, your Located Missionary has convinced YOU to pay HIM for NOT speaking that which is written and NOT letting you get involved in the REHEARSING of the READ word so that you go home with GOD'S word and not his truly embarassing expose of himself.

IN ISAIAH 55 "DON'T SPEND YOUR MONEY ON WHAT IS NOT BREAD." Direct command. Why? Jesus paid it all and TAUGHT it all.  The Word of God is like the Water Cycle: if you have someone picking up cups full of nothing all week and then delivering it through a SPOUT then he is a merchandiser: the Lucifer principle. Corrupting the Word is "selling learning at RETAIL."  Could THAT be any simpler?

Only my very good days I declare that they are LIARS: you are commanded to COME OUT OF or DIVORCE them before the Lord will accept you. UNITY is just the way for false teachers to accumulate MASS to force you to GOOSE CLAP.

    Is. 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm [Messiah] in the eyes of all the nations;
            and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
    Is. 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence,
            touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her;
            be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.
    Is. 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight:
            for the LORD will go before you;
            and the God of Israel will be your rereward.
    Is. 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently,
            he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
    Is. 52:14 As many were astonied at thee;
            his visage was so marred more than any man,
            and his form more than the sons of men:
    Is. 52:15 So shall he sprinkle [to spirit] many nations;
            the kings shall shut their mouths at him:
            for that which had not been told them shall they see;
            and that which they had not heard shall they consider. 

If the preachers and song writers can fabricate the RESOURCES for your pseudo-school of the Bible; and the musical worship teams CLAIM to be the INTERCESSOR by leading you into the presence of God the WHAT did Jesus die for?

    Is. 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate,
            and an helmet of salvation upon his head;
            and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
            and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
    Is. 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay,
            fury to his adversaries,
            recompence to his enemies;
            to the islands he will repay recompence.
    Is. 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west,
            and his glory from the rising of the sun.
            When the enemy shall come in like a flood,
            the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
    Is. 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion,
            and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

    Is. 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
            My spirit that is upon thee,
            and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
            shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
            nor out of the mouth of thy seed’s seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Of course, Paul almost always did his preaching in the MARKETPLACE.  The school of Tyrannus was a free, open forum but for all of Paul's meeting in real synagogues and in the marketplace you have NO evidence that he ever SANG anything when they assembled.  The PSALLO rope in fact was a polluted rope used to MARK those who dallied around the singing girls and boys in the marketplace.  These had to be forced to go up to the ekklesia in Athens: when they arrived they would be POLLUTED by the PSALLO STRING, had to pay a fine and were not permitted to discuss the material always presented by a higher authority.  If you tried to sing or play an instrument in the ekklesia they would HURT you real bad.

And that's all I have to say about that.

If there are a half dozen good disciples you might tell us what you learned from songs and sermons in the morning.

[Mere Nick]

The flu has me feeling a bit cantankerous, so I'm going to spit it right out.

I think our downfall in the Church of Christ is that we put too much stock in procedures.  Acts of worship.  Ordered steps to salvation.  Church organization.  Church name.

istm that, biblically, we read a ton in the NT about love and holiness and the like, and mercifully little about procedures and patterns. If we're going to be the New Testament church, shouldn't our focus match the focus of the NT?

Can anyone show me very simply from the NT that we should be intimately concerned about procedures?

You make a good point.

Every church I'm aware of, regardless of the sof, puts stock in procedures.  Perhaps we too often put the cart in front of the horse.

Way back when the NT was being scribed out, though, what were Christians known for and what drew folks to them?

It seems if folks are really wanting to be the NT church, it should be that when folks speak of us they say something similar to:  "Those folks there are really concerned about living right, loving each other and helping folks, trying to behave like Jesus.  And, oh yeah, when they get together for a worship service they try to conduct it the way they did way back when Christianity was just starting up".

It should be like that, istm.  Both are important.  One is more important that the other.  We don't seem to have the order of importance right.