Quail Springs CoC, IM worship and the attacks start!

[Jimbob]

A Capella itself violates the rule of silence. 

Eph 5:19 says to SPEAK.  Singing is to be done IN THE HEART, NOT OUT LOUD!

'K there, Zwingli dude. 

[zoonance]

This is getting much play on the Stone-Campbell list.  I wonder what your thoughts are.  Mine are totally negative; nowhere in the NT is there command/inference/example of one congregation "marking" one of another congregation.
 
Dan
 
Wednesday morning's Daily Oklahoman contained this full-page ad on the back page:
 
http://shopping.newsok.com/ROP/ads.aspx?advid=757858&adid=5741029&cat=5157
 
Here is a follow-up:
 
 http://newsok.com/article/3201750

My conviction is that such actions are no different, and have no less damage to the cause of Christ than the brothers Paul scolded and told to stop suing one another in public courts.  This is taking a family matter to the court of public opinion, and is, I believe, as sinful.

As to Quail Springs' decision, I believe they are an autonomous congregation, are they not?  Or did that principle just somehow get temporarily suspended?

"If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?"  I Cor. 6:1 NIV

an excellent point.

[zoonance]

I love Mark Henderson.  He's taught some really great truths on biblical leadership at Pepperdine.  I think its great that they are trying something new for a different assembly of new people that will hear the gospel for the first time.

I am praying for Quail Springs and their new endeavors for Jesus.

If you don't like it, don't go there...like James said, aren't they autonomous?  Why is it anyone else's business?

This was a year ago BTW.  They have had an instrumental service for a year now.

"Institutional maintenance is not a compelling vision for the church."

AMEN!

The ad was this week wasn't it?  It looks like they were planning in 2007 and implementing in jan 2008, but maybe I understand it wrong.

[charlie]

And the beat goes on. So many Churches of Christ want so much for their stance on a cappella music to not be what their church is all about...

just so long as they get to keep that stance and make sure that every other congregation that shares their brand name does the same. "We don't make an issue out of it. All we do is show you that you are wrong and are lost if you don't do it our way."

But they're really not all about non-IM.

I think all this discussion does is further erode the support for the rigorist anti-IM stance. You want to honor the primitive church by worshipping without instruments, fine. But once you start smooshing verses together to try to make the bible say that instruments are sinful, when in fact it doesn't, you head down that steady decline into historical oddity. In the marketplace of ideas, people can usually see through made-up junk.

The only reason Churches of Christ are still around is because they have some loyal adherents who were raised there who are friendly to visitors and truly view their "distinctive doctrines" as little more than personal preference. The denomination survives in spite of the anti-IM attitude, not because of it.

Once all the tolerant congregations go instrumental and change to non-affiliated community churches, the remaining rigorists will make such a stink about other people using the CoC franchise that nobody with a lick of grace or sense will stick around, and then the sect will finally die out. Should happen within the next 50 years.

[Big Mike Lewis]

The ad was this week wasn't it?  It looks like they were planning in 2007 and implementing in jan 2008, but maybe I understand it wrong.

You might be right.  I just saw the date on the sermon linked and thought it happened a year ago.

[MarkHooper]

At one time the church of Christ I went to had over 400 member in a rather large building. Over 25 years the church divided over leadership, organization, the KJV verses the NIV, blue collar workers against white collar workers, a preacher that over stayed his welcome, ministry, personalities, sinful behaviors, on and on it went.  99% of the church left leaving behind a few families that don’t even know what transpired. While all this was happening the stupid unbiblical doctrines of autonomy had thousands members  of church of Christ   in various churches  in the area ambivalently if not salivating watching what they thought would be are demise.

I hope we begin to see a tipping point in the churches of Christ that their narrow and often shallow view of truth start crumbling.   I applaud the Quail Springs church for there honest truth seeking and leadership.  It doesn’t the IM issue to cause controversy it takes ignorant and often ill mannered people who profess Christ and unity but who in there own weak spirit having to manipulate people to there own ways or hold the church hostage.

If after all the Pharisee did start non instrumental music 200 years before Christ and Jesus scorned their religiosity  why now would we embrace the nature or theology of such  dogma?

[Dennis]

You know things are changing on this forum when an IM thread cannot get beyond two pages in three days.

[david johnson]

they did what they wanted and planned to do.

'The only reason Churches of Christ are still around is because they have some loyal adherents who were raised there who are friendly to visitors and truly view their "distinctive doctrines" as little more than personal preference. The denomination survives in spite of the anti-IM attitude, not because of it.

Once all the tolerant congregations go instrumental and change to non-affiliated community churches, the remaining rigorists will make such a stink about other people using the CoC franchise that nobody with a lick of grace or sense will stick around, and then the sect will finally die out. Should happen within the next 50 years.'

malarkey.  that statement assumes that God doesn't want/use said church.
can't stand against the Lord and be successful.

dj

[david johnson]

You know things are changing on this forum when an IM thread cannot get beyond two pages in three days.

i think it's a quail springs thread, not an im thread.

dj

[Dennis]

Yeah, OK, whatever you say.

[Dufrdan]

Here's the latest FROM Quail Springs:

Quail Mail
A Message from Mark 
February 9, 2008 

Dear Church Family:

Needless to say, it has been quite a week! The ad that appeared in the Oklahoman on Wednesday generated a news story on TV Channel 4 and an incredible amount of phone and email traffic at the office. On Thursday, there was a front-page article in the Oklahoman. Carla Hinton wrote that one as a follow up to the interview with me that she published on January 26. I wanted to let you know a few things in connection with this flurry of publicity, but I didn't want to take away from our time on Sunday morning to do so.
First, if any of this public discussion/controversy has caused you personal difficulty or embarrassment, please accept my apology. I have tried to represent Christ and our church well, but I know some of you have had to deal with very negative responses.

Second, some have asked whether I initiated these media contacts, and the answer is "no." Carla first contacted me in May wanting to talk about the Rwanda adoption plans and our change in worship styles. I told her that I could talk about the adoptions but not the worship changes. I agreed with her that it was a newsworthy item, but I told her the situation in our congregation was much too sensitive and that it was very premature to talk about it publicly.

When we returned from Africa, Carla contacted me about a follow up story on the adoptions and again asked about a story on the worship transition. I told her that it was still too early to talk about that and that I would get back to her once we had made decisions about our schedule and a start date. I did so, and that is what determined the timing of the interview and January 26 article. In every circumstance where you've seen or heard something about Quail, I was contacted and asked to participate. I did so because I honestly believed it was better to comment and tell our story than for the media to communicate that our church had no comment.

Third, I believe the Wednesday ad that was attributed to "area churches of Christ" was misleading. The authors of the ad have refused to list the participating churches, but it appears that perhaps none of the Oklahoma City churches participated financially. Our friends at New Hope, Memorial Road, Mayfair, Edmond, Oakcrest, and Alameda contacted us in some way to offer encouragement and to let us know they had no part in the ad. Of course, that doesn't suggest that they are in agreement with the changes we are making. They simply wanted to affirm us as brothers and sisters in the Lord and to let us know they were personally offended by the ad.

I also heard from ministers at Churches of Christ in Texas, Colorado, Illinois, and Indiana. Locally, we heard from Bridgeway, Cherokee Hills Christian, Forest Hills Christian, Council Road Baptist, Quail Springs Baptist, Covenant Life Church, Crossings, and many others. Each of them wanted to communicate support and encouragement, and several said that they were praying for us in staff meetings and congregational meetings.

Fourth, I have been reminded again what a loving, affirming congregation we have at Quail. In addition to all of these churches, many of you called, sent emails, and mailed cards to offer words of love and encouragement to my family and me. Someone even sent flower arrangements to the entire staff! I had absolutely no chance to slip into discouragement this week, and I want to thank each of you who helped with that.

Finally, we have exciting news to share tomorrow about our Easter plans, and we want to look forward to a great day on Missions Sunday in just two weeks! This publicity flurry will soon be way off the radar screen, but the plans we have for Missions and for Easter Sunday will have an impact that lasts through eternity.

God is good, and he has good plans for us. I love you, and I look forward to a great day with you tomorrow.


Blessings,

Mark

 
 

[Jimbob]

Third, I believe the Wednesday ad that was attributed to "area churches of Christ" was misleading. The authors of the ad have refused to list the participating churches, but it appears that perhaps none of the Oklahoma City churches participated financially.

If the latter statement is accurate, the former is truly, truly pathetic and cowardly.  And weasily.  No matter which side of the keyboard you stand on.

[Bon Voyage]

Did they baptize the instruments for the remission of sins?

[WileyClarkson]

This is another sad moment in the CoC history not because of a decission made by informed, knowledgable elders but because of the narrow minded rigidness of those who cannot accept the simple fact that each congregation of the CoC has the God given right to walk its own path and not the path that someone else has chosen.  Please read the links first, in order, then come back and finish reading this post:

1:   http://newsok.com/article/3201750

2:  http://shopping.newsok.com/ROP/ads.aspx?advid=757858&adid=5741029&cat=5157

and now, the reply:

 
Quail Mail
A Message from Mark 
February 9, 2008 
 
   
 
A Message from Mark
Dear Church Family:

Needless to say, it has been quite a week! The ad that appeared in the Oklahoman on Wednesday generated a news story on TV Channel 4 and an incredible amount of phone and email traffic at the office. On Thursday, there was a front-page article in the Oklahoman. Carla Hinton wrote that one as a follow up to the interview with me that she published on January 26. I wanted to let you know a few things in connection with this flurry of publicity, but I didn't want to take away from our time on Sunday morning to do so.
First, if any of this public discussion/controversy has caused you personal difficulty or embarrassment, please accept my apology. I have tried to represent Christ and our church well, but I know some of you have had to deal with very negative responses.

Second, some have asked whether I initiated these media contacts, and the answer is "no." Carla first contacted me in May wanting to talk about the Rwanda adoption plans and our change in worship styles. I told her that I could talk about the adoptions but not the worship changes. I agreed with her that it was a newsworthy item, but I told her the situation in our congregation was much too sensitive and that it was very premature to talk about it publicly.

When we returned from Africa, Carla contacted me about a follow up story on the adoptions and again asked about a story on the worship transition. I told her that it was still too early to talk about that and that I would get back to her once we had made decisions about our schedule and a start date. I did so, and that is what determined the timing of the interview and January 26 article. In every circumstance where you've seen or heard something about Quail, I was contacted and asked to participate. I did so because I honestly believed it was better to comment and tell our story than for the media to communicate that our church had no comment.

Third, I believe the Wednesday ad that was attributed to "area churches of Christ" was misleading. The authors of the ad have refused to list the participating churches, but it appears that perhaps none of the Oklahoma City churches participated financially. Our friends at New Hope, Memorial Road, Mayfair, Edmond, Oakcrest, and Alameda contacted us in some way to offer encouragement and to let us know they had no part in the ad. Of course, that doesn't suggest that they are in agreement with the changes we are making. They simply wanted to affirm us as brothers and sisters in the Lord and to let us know they were personally offended by the ad.

I also heard from ministers at Churches of Christ in Texas, Colorado, Illinois, and Indiana. Locally, we heard from Bridgeway, Cherokee Hills Christian, Forest Hills Christian, Council Road Baptist, Quail Springs Baptist, Covenant Life Church, Crossings, and many others. Each of them wanted to communicate support and encouragement, and several said that they were praying for us in staff meetings and congregational meetings.

Fourth, I have been reminded again what a loving, affirming congregation we have at Quail. In addition to all of these churches, many of you called, sent emails, and mailed cards to offer words of love and encouragement to my family and me. Someone even sent flower arrangements to the entire staff! I had absolutely no chance to slip into discouragement this week, and I want to thank each of you who helped with that.

Finally, we have exciting news to share tomorrow about our Easter plans, and we want to look forward to a great day on Missions Sunday in just two weeks! This publicity flurry will soon be way off the radar screen, but the plans we have for Missions and for Easter Sunday will have an impact that lasts through eternity.

God is good, and he has good plans for us. I love you, and I look forward to a great day with you tomorrow.


Blessings,

Mark
 

And now, all the other mad dogs who are hungry for blood because a church has decided based on their own study that a particular view of Scripture is acceptable.

I find it amazing that Christians who think and preach that each congregation is autonomous are also the ones who go on the attack when an autonomous congregation makes a decision that is contrary to what the attacking congregation believes and that they will stoop to such means to go after the ones they don't agree with.

How sad for our RM fellowship of churches

[david johnson]

Yeah, OK, whatever you say.

how deep of you.  offer data that shows this thread is not primarily concerned with q/s and responses to it.

dj