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Offline Bobby Valentine

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Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 15:17:16 »
Barry I confess that many of our folks are far from perfect.  I confess the same for myself.  I fall so far short of the glory of God it is pathetic!  I pray every day that folks are not turned off to the Lord because of my sin.  

I also take comfort in the fact, however, that the truth of Jesus Christ does not depend upon Bobby Valentine but upon HIS life, HIS love, HIS teachings, HIS death, HIS resurrection. These are flawless. They are beyond a shadow of doubt.  I tell folks at Southside that I am a pitiful servant of God -- so please make sure your eyes are focuses upon HIM.  

With that said I confess Wallace, I confess Tant, I confess McGarvey.  But as much as I disagree with any of them on this topic and worldview I still do not have the authority or righteousness to be their Judge.  I simply praise God that he had me born now and not then!

I closed my speech by saying we needed a heavy dose of \"forgiveness\" \"grace\" and \"love\" -- without that we will not make it.  I believe it as much now as I did in 1997.  

One final thing, I would like the reference on McGarvey that you allude too.  I doubt not that he had basically racist views but I am unaware of the behavior you credit him with.  I could be wrong and if so I will gladly admit it.  So if you can please PM me the reference I will look it up.  But until we meet again I pray this for you:

\"May the LORD bless you and keep you; May the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; May the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace\" (Numbers 6.24ff).

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

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Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 15:17:16 »

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« Reply #1 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 17:18:39 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Bobby Valentine @ Feb. 15 2003,4:25)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Bobby Valentine,

[snip]

Foy Wallace was an opportunist who went around preaching because he was too lazy to get honest work as a field hand, which was about all he probably could do.  The fact your elders and preachers cowardly gave heed to such condemns them as illegitimate leaders and kiss ups.[/quote]
Barry, greetings from the Land of Beer and Cheese.  I will respond to your PM's as best I can.  I have not responded so far because I did not know how to.

As for selling out to Wallace I think I demonstrated in my speech -- which is far from complete -- there was and is an alternate tradition to Wallace.  There have been many brave and godly saints who have stood up to racism and the church is changing.  The church is a refugee church -- always has been and always will be.  We still have a ways to go more than likely.  But like an alchoholic the first step forward is admitting error.   Jesus remains however.  It is to him we look to.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI[/quote]
Bobby,


I have no doubt that people opposed Wallace and his racism.  I see no reason to doubt the integrity of the sources you cited.  It is just for the \"mainstream\" CoCer there was no alternative view or opposition to Wallace.  Those who opposed him and his views were never heard by the other 99% of the membership.

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« Reply #1 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 17:18:39 »

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« Reply #2 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 17:57:44 »
Now, explain to me why Foy Wallace was able to get by all the foolishness he spewed?

Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #3 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 21:54:10 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Feb. 15 2003,8:33)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]This is an article I wrote with regards to my racist upbringing in the Church of Christ.

http://www.talulah.twistedpair.net/racism.htm[/quote]
Talulah, greetings from the Land of Beer and Cheese.  Thanks for contributing to this thread and the link to your struggle with racism and its dreadful results in your life.  I see the pain and anguish in each line of your lament.

Let me make a few observations, if I may.  1) Part of the problem I see in your experience is hermeneutical. By that I mean a perspective that took a slavishly literal -- perhaps crassly literal -- approach to Scripture.  An approach that failed to take into account either historical context or literary context much less questions of literary genres.  

2) Part of the problem I see is theological.  By that I mean Paul did not overtly condemn slavery but he did absolutely redefine what slavery meant.  Further he showed how folks from widely different backgrounds became a single new humanity in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2.11-22).  In fact I encourage you to read through the entire letter to the Ephesians searching for the phrase \"one\"; \"one new man\" etc.  Paul's whole argument in Ephesians is that both Gentile and Jew are saved by grace so that neither had superiority over the other.  Ephesians is not about doctrinal unity rather it is about racial unity in Christ.  You can find similiar themes in Colossians but not as thematically integral to the letter as in Ephesians.  

3) The third problem I see is historical.  One of the common mistakes that proslavery advocates made in defending such (as in James Smiley who was the Apostle of Slavery prior to the Civil War) is the rather naive and completly unhistorical assumption that slavery in the Roman Empire was anything akin to American Slavery.  American slavery was based solely upon race and was founded upon the doctrine of racial inferiority.  Race nothing to do with slavery in the Ancient world -- it was purely economic.  Slaves had opportunities to redeem themselves in ways that never occured in the US.  

To read US slavery back into the NT or even the Hebrew Bible is thus hermeneutically, theologically and historically wrong.  There was plenty of racism in the Ancient world but it was not \"white vs. black\" it was Greek vs. everyone; it was Jew vs. everyone (and they are basically the same color).  However in the Ancient world there was no stigma attached to be African.  That is a modern sin.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

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« Reply #3 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 21:54:10 »

Offline david johnson

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« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 16, 2003 - 02:48:39 »
barry:

segregation = sin?  you must prove this.  
it's a distasteful practice ususally arising from prejudiced attitudes,  but that doesn't make it sin.

dj

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« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 16, 2003 - 02:48:39 »



Offline patriciaredstone

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« Reply #5 on: Sun Feb 16, 2003 - 17:55:31 »
I probably should not post since I have not read this thread. But, after chuch today, my husband and I were discussing the old, sick and ever-lingering prejudice and racism for which our own congregation can't bear to sign the \"Do Not Resusitate\" order.

We just installed a new deacon who was hesitant to accept because he has \"a problem with there being 3 mixed race couples at church.\"

We thought it would be better for the church if his new position was balanced with a black brother ... even a latino or asian (All white elders and deacons and four salaried ministers at our 500+member church! despite a 25% and growing ethnic minority.) But the elders said that all of the names of the brothers we submited (as you would expect from such a leadership, women -- regardless of color -- are out of the question.), even though they are moral, wise, good husbands and neighbors, fantastic bible students, caring and attentive fathers, benevolent servants and shepherds of the flock, they did not qualify for leadership postitions because they had \"more than one wife.\"

They insist, that regardless of the circumstances, divorce excludes these men.

In my opinion, this interpretation of \"more than one wife\" is prolonging the healing of the nations and has become one of the little foxes that ravage the vineyard.

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #6 on: Sun Feb 16, 2003 - 23:20:16 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]dj wrote:
segregation = sin?  you must prove this.[/quote]
Maybe this will help a little...
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?\" (Gal. 2:11-14, KJV; cf. 3:26-28)[/quote]



[!--EDIT|James Rondon|Feb. 16 2003,11:23--]

Offline Booty

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« Reply #7 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 05:10:08 »
Sorry, but no quarter can be given.

As difficult as it is to accept, we all speak the same language. With that thought clearly in mind, I believe it becomes self evident that when BH referred to segregation on a racism based thread in the negative sense as being sinful, no amount of semantic manuevering would be capable of denying this.

When David responded describing the practice negatively, he concurred with BH's negative interpretation of the use of the word and negated in this particular discussion the perspective of positive segregation.
I look around my family, I see loved ones. I see fellow Christians and those we pray daily may come to know and love our Lord. I see men, women, boys and girls; brothers, sisters, wife, in laws, sons, daughters, mother, father, aunts, uncles and cousins. I realize that some would see Whites, Blacks, Browns and Yellows for all those are present in my immediate family when I am forced to think about it, but I just see those I love.

My Mum's family rejected my Da and her for his ethnic heritage, my Da's family rejected my Mum and him for her cultural and ethnic heritage. My Mum's people are subjected to bigotry for their lifestyle by a people who are themselves subjected to bigotry for their predominant religion and their ethnic heritage. My Da's people committed some of the most henious crimes of racism the world has ever witnessed.  

My cousins and I have all resolved before our God that this will not continue in our generation and generations to come in our family. As well we are resolved that we will confront racism without fear whenever it rears it's ugly and sinful head. It truly is time for the SIN of racism and segregation to end, and with us it has.

Offline janine

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« Reply #8 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 14:18:26 »
One of several reasons for wanting so eagerly to come and work with my congregation, mentioned by the new preacher we just hired, is the factor of our congregation being racially & ethnically mixed & everyone working so well & enthusiastically together.

Heh, the poor man may be dreadfully disillusioned by us when he & his wife & child come to us this summer... but at least we've something good and Christlike to work with, in the area of our purposeful fight against inter-Christian racism.


Note to Kari re: Bob's story:
I don't think the idiot Klansman, with the negative reaction to the Black lady being immersed, was a member of the Lord's church.  I understood Bob calling him a \"Christian\" to mean that the man did so, but that Bob wondered how he could make the claim.  I wonder if I'm reading that into it, and he was a blood-washed forgiven believer?
 
Also, per 1Co 6:18 (The Message version), this would be why people harp so on sexual sin & seem to ignore the less visible ones:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]There is a sense in which sexual sins are different from all others. In sexual sin we violate the sacredness of our own bodies, these bodies that were made for God-given and God-modeled love, for \"becoming one\" with another.[/quote]

Offline kmv

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« Reply #9 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 16:59:53 »
But, would the homosexual activist even get the benefit of our, \"well, he claims to be a Christian...\"  Not from what I've seen here and elsewhere, so why do we so often treat racism as ignorance, rather than sin?

I have heard the 1Cor 6 reference before, and I do understand that sexual immorality is a sin even though it seems to 'hurt' no one, because it hurts our selves.  

But there is nothing I've ever seen in scripture to justify ranking sexual sin as 'worse' than others; in fact, v. 10 above lists thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers along with the sexually impure as those who won't inherit God's Kingdom.  

When's the last time you heard someone speak out against slander?  Who carries on about the pro-greed agenda?  Why do we make one sin worse than others when God never did?

In fact, since the hate-based sins go straight against the law of Love that Jesus brought us, I'd say racism definitely beats out homosexuality.

Why do we tolerate it the way we do?

Kari

Offline Nevertheless

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« Reply #10 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 00:04:44 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In fact, since the hate-based sins go straight against the law of Love that Jesus brought us, I'd say racism definitely beats out homosexuality.

Why do we tolerate it the way we do?
[/quote]


Is it perhaps because of the little bit of racist inside each of us?  Isn't it \"natural\" to be drawn to those who are like us?  Isn't it \"natural\" to be wary of those who are different?  We all react that way to a certain extent, so it is easier to excuse such behavior.

However, as God replaces the \"natural\" within us with the spiritual, sin of all kinds becomes less tolerable.  So perhaps if we tolerate racism it is because we haven't grown enough to recognize it as sin?

Never

Offline Booty

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« Reply #11 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 10:52:32 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Feb. 18 2003,10:53)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Booty, if I stood to speak out against every heresy or error or bit of stupidity I hear from the preaching pulpit and the teaching lecturn, I'd have thighs the size of Wales from all the up,down,up,down,up,down...[/quote]
Well Janine my beloved sister. I would still love you, Welsh thighs and all, we would still love you, Mike would still love you and most certainly Jesus would still love you!!



Hmmm Could all that rising and setting also affect the size of one's paunch??   Or is it just simply not rising soon enough from the table?  Ach and Sandi is now baking and selling pastries, delicious creamy pastries, Tres Leches, Chocolate Marquesa, El Bosque Negro, Cafe au lait!!. I have honestly swollen to the point they could float me for that tyre manufacturer, Good...Ok yanks who has the blimp?

Brojees is now on a very strict diet and aching from exercise!!!

Offline kmv

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« Reply #12 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 14:46:24 »
I think Never really has something important here-our natural tendency to divide into 'us' and the 'other'.

I think we have to do more than just put away our overtly racist attitudes.  We have to look at ourselves and try to see when that tendency to prefer those like ourselves is keeping us from understanding our brothers and sisters.

This is why I personally think racial preferences are still called for.

Offline Booty

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« Reply #13 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 21:53:39 »
Click on them to look at the, when you find one you like,
copy the location and the call up the Image command right side of your edit page and paste it in!





Offline samloveall

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« Reply #14 on: Wed Feb 19, 2003 - 07:49:10 »
Going back to the quotation from Malcolm X . . .

You have to be careful when you quote from \"The Autobiography of Malcolm X\".  Why?

It's a fascinating book.  The facination I find with it is that the Malcolm X who beings the book on page one is almost nothing like the Malcolm X who closes the book.  Along the way, as he writes (with Alex Haley's Help) in first-person, you see his attitudes change; you feel his growing disillusionment with what he was and with the whole Elijah Muhammed thing;  you see his sharpness against whites soften;  you see him begin to embrace humanity.  It's just an incredible read.  You should work though it when you can.

The reason I said you have to be careful when you quote him is that his opinions on pretty much everything change as he undergoes his transformation.  Many of the ideas he writes early or midway through the book, he repudiates toward the end, or he at least softens on many of them.  

I'm not saying the quotation here was wrong or wrongly applied . . . it's been a few years since I last read through it, so I don't know which part of the book, and which part of his life, the quotation comes from.  You might want to double-sheck it and see.

Offline janine

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« Reply #15 on: Wed Feb 19, 2003 - 11:26:09 »
We ought to make side-trips off-topic more often.

I find myself not so much drawn to people who look like me, or even always to people who act like me... as to people who are neither much more nor much less intelligent than me.

What does that have to do with race or age or money?  And you can tell by my grammar it ain't always to do with education.  

Or at least, that's how it seems to work out.

When people do not operate out of a loving Christian heart of understanding, sometimes you can at least make a connection to their mind.

Connecting to people who are much more intelligent than I, or much less, requires Jesus for sure.  

Love is the better connection anyway.

Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #16 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 14:36:54 »
Greetings from the Valentines where we are getting some light snow.  The following post is called \"Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ but was originally presented in 1997.  The context is addressing area Church of Christ ministers in New Orleans at a Preachers Meeting.  I was requested by the minister of the host congregation to present an historical overview of the problem of race relations among \"us.\"  In light of the recent interest concerning \"Black History Month\" I offer this -- unchanged -- from that 1997 meeting.

Bobby Valentine
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
Elysian Fields Church of Christ
New Orleans Area Preachers Meeting
February 13, 1997


Some Scriptures:

But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an overflowing stream\" (Amos 5.24)

He [the LORD] defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him/her food and clothing.  And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt. (Deuteronomy 10.18-19)

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and the needy . . . therefore I did away with them as you have seen\" (Ezekiel 16. 49-50)

The Spirit of the LORD is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.  He has sent me to proclaim freedom for prisoners . . . (Luke 4.18)

You give a tenth of your spices - mint, dill and cummin.  But you have neglected the more important matters of the law - justice, mercy and faithfulness . . . (Matthew 23.23)

O LORD, God of Heaven, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and obey his commands, let your ear be attentive and your eyes open to hear the prayer of your servant . . . I confess the sins of the Israelites, including myself and my father's house, have committed against you\" (Nehemiah 1.5-6)

Another \"Prophetic\" Voice:

\"When my mother was pregnant with me, she told me later a party of hooded Ku Klux Klan riders galloped up to our home in Omaha, Nebraska, one night.  Surrounding the house . . . the Klansmen shouted threats to my pregnant mother warning her we better get out of town because 'the good Christian white people' were not going to stand for my father's spreading trouble among the 'good' Negroes. . .\"
      \"All praise is due to Allah that I went to Boston when I did. If I hadn't I'd probably still be a brainwashed black Christian.\" (The Autobiography of Malcolm X pp. 3 & 46).

HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE: CHURCHES OF CHRIST AND RACE - THE MAJORITY TRADITION

An episode took place in March 1941 that highlights, almost as a sidelight, the prevalent racial attitudes in CofC's of the time.  It involved the very powerful editor Bishop of the Bible Banner, R. N. Hogan and the mild mannered evangelist Marsahll Keeble.  Foy E. Wallace Jr., had heard (through the grapevine) that Hogan had stopped by Ira Rice Jr.'s home and spent the night in that white brother's house.  Editor Wallace was so furious that he rebuked these men through the pages of his journal:

Aside from being an infringement on the Jim Crow law, it is a violation of Christianity itself, and of all common decency. Such conduct forfeits the respect of right thinking people, and would be calculated to stir up demonstrations in most any community if it should be generally known (\"Negro Meetings for White People,\" Bible Banner 3 [March 1941], p.7).

Foy Wallace then attacked Hogan as being \"too much inclined to mix with the white people and to favor, in attitude, social equality!\" Wallace did not take to the notion of equality with blacks very favorably.  But Wallace's tirade was not over yet.  He turned his sharp pen on the ever humble Marshall Keeble and the whites who attended his revivals.  He [Wallace] laments:

The manner in which the brethren in some quarters are going in for the negro meetings lead one to wonder whether they are trying to make white folks out of negroes . . . Reliable reports have come to me of white women, members of the church, becoming so animated over a certain colored preacher as to go up to him after a sermon and shake hands with him holdin his hand in both of theirs. That kind of thing will turn the head of most white preachers, and sometimes affect their conduct, and anybody ought to know that it makes fools out of the negroes and the women loses her dignity. (Ibid).

As painful as these words are for me to read today -- from a \"great\" preacher? -- I confess, sadly, this is hardly an isolated case.  Pioneer preacher of the Churches of Christ in Florida, W. A. Cameron, preached a sermon on a number of occasions called: The Origin and Development of the Negro Race (later published as a booklet to increase its circulation). This sermon is nothing less than bile but was received as \"sound\" doctrine.  Cameron says:

WE NOW COME TO THE NEGRO'S DEVELOPMENT. IT'S NILL.
They have been cursed with a sence [sic] of fear, ignorance, superstition and an inferior complex.  After 4,298 years they are still right where God left them.  We will do well to let them alone . . .

We have to admit that we have some very well educated negro's among us. SOme who have made good in business and various trades.  How do you account for that?  Yes, all those negro's who have a generous fertilization of white blood have invariably left the evidence of it behind them. But the genuine negro article is just what he has always been.
(The Origin and Development of the Negro Race, p. 7).

I leave Cameron for he only decends from this point.  But such \"great\" preachers as the legendary orator N.B. Hardeman would refuse to shake hands with blacks.  He said he could say everything he \"wanted to say without the formality of shaking hands.\"  Keeble the great evangelist upbraided by Wallace was invited to the Lipscomb lectures each year but was not allowed to eat and fellowship with the white brethren there.  As I see it, the attitude displayed by Wallace -- easily the most influential preacher among us at the time -- was the prevailing view among \"us.\"  It is interesting to note that there is not on record a single protest to Wallace in any form.  

THE PROTEST/ALTERNATIVE TRADITION

Not all embraced the racist view of the prevailing culture.  The Stone Movement of the early 19th century, for example, was very \"progressive\" in its views towards blacks for its day.  They allowed blacks to worship in the Cane Ridge meeting house -- even though they sat in a balcony built just for them.  Most churches did not even allow that. In the 1830s through the 1850s the Disciples for the most part ignored the issue of slavery.  Alexander Campbell joined the Virginia Constitutional Convention in 1828 with a view towards abolishing slavery in that commonwealth. He failed. He wrote on the issue of slavery in the Millennial Harbinger and was opposed to the institution on political, economic and some moral grounds.  But by and large he did not forcefully address the issue.  But it is a fact that most blacks went with the more progressive Disciples of Christ after the split.

UNSUNG HERO OF THE ALTERNATE TRADITION: S.R. CASSIUS

One hundred years ago the only voice discussing the \"race issue\" among Churches of Christ was S. R. Cassius.  While many thought the Instrument, the Society, or the \"Woman\" question was the major hurdle of the church at the edge of the century.  Not so with Cassius.  He declared in bold language that it was the \"race issue.\"  He wrote passionatly in any journal that dared to print his articles. The Christian Leader, published out of Ohio, was open to his contributions.  He said, \"the race problem is the paramount issue of the day and only the church can settle it (\"Race Problem,\" Christian Leader [March 10, 1903], 9).  

Cassius wrote bitterly about the almost two hundred lynchings taking place a year -- many by so called \"Christians\" {even in the Churches of Christ}.  He was an outspoken critic of the segregation that was then coming into vogue in the late 1890's [Segregation became a legal doctrine in the Plessy v. Ferguson Supreme Court case in 1896 -- ironically it all started right here in New Orleans]. But Cassius was denied pulpits to preach and journals in which to write. Yet, he refused to be defeated.  He believed the bottom line was antiChristian race hatred plagued the brotherhood despite our claims to have restored NT Christianity.  He was told his race was inferior to whites. He responded by saying the problem was one of

full of race prejudice and hatred, inbred by three hundred years of schooling of a purely one-sided nature . . . I may arouse passions that will cause my people to be hung, shot and burned under every tree in the South, or I may start a wave of sympathy that will roll over the land which will make such common things impossible for these to occur agian. (\"The Race Problem\" Christian Leader [October 1, 1901], 12).  

I find it unnerving that Cassius mentions the possibility of violence against blacks for his views being published in a brotherhood paper.  Later Cassius responds explicitly to the superiority question:

If there is superiority in race give us an example of it by being better morally, physically and intellectually; and if God loves whites more than us, prove it by loving Him more and doing His will better than any other.  Then and not until then will I concede that you are better than I am\" (\"A Trip to the Golden State,\" Christian Leader [August 19, 1902], 5).

The majority, however, followed the prevailing winds of the time: blacks have no souls, that they are decendents of Cain or that they have the so-called \"Curse of Ham.\"  J.M. McCaleb (legendary missionary to Japan) was one who voiced some concern, along with Cassius.  He suggested opening up the Nashville Bible School to blacks -- he was corrected for his \"foolishness.\"  

J.D. Tant summed up the views of the majority.  Tant had taken a evangelistic tour of Kansas in 1898 and reported his adventure in the Gospel Advocate.  He writes of his sheer amazement of how well blacks were treated in that state.

Negro equality runs high here.  Negroes ride in the same coach, go to the same school, eat at the same table with white people, and sometimes sleep in the beds of their white neighbors; all of which I am glad to say, is NOT tolerated in 'heathen' Texas. (\"In Kansas,\" Gospel Advocate [February 5, 1898], 71).

THE SITUATION IN THE RECENT PAST

In 1960 Pepperdine was the only Church of Christ college to allow blacks to attend.  Although the Supreme Court had ruled in the Brown v. Board of Education (1954) that segregation was illegal none of our colleges opened up to blacks. It took the powerful homily of Carl Spain at the 1960 ACC Lectures and the threat of loosing Federal money to open the school in 1962.  Spain, said in a voice like Cassius, \"God forbid that the church of Christ, and schools operated by Christians, shall be the last refuge for socially sick people who have Nazi illusions about the Master Race . . . I feel certain Jesus would say 'Ye hypocrites!'\"  Harding opened up in 1963, followed by Lipscomb.  Freed-Hardeman was the last to capitulate but did so with a public apology to students in chapel over integration.

In 1968 the 20th Century Christian had the largest subscription base of any magazine in our brotherhood (save Christian Chronicle) with over 40,000.  In July of 1968 a special issue was run on \"Christ and Race Relations\" featuring articles by Clyde Muse, Roosevelt Wells, Zebedee Bishop and a number of white authors.  Almost immediately the subscription base dropped in half to under 20,000 -- where it remains to this day.  Surely this is not mere coincidence.

Many in the church simply labeled those who addressed the \"race issue\" as \"liberals\" who wish to change the gospel and purity of the Church.  The reaction of many to the Race Relations Workshop at the Simpson St. Church in Atlanta in June of 1968 was typical. The pages of the Firm Foundation carried strong denunciations in the following weeks -- including that of Reuel Lemmons.  One reaction, by Glen Wallace, in First Century Christianity claimed the goals of the workshop was to:

RESTRUCTURE the church. They want our pulpits to ring with the social gospel theme. They want the 'urban ministry' to become the cry of our day.  They are tired of the 'old rugged cross.'\" (\"The Atlanta Conference,\" [October 1968], 3, his emphasis]

Earlier in 1968 Marshall Keeble died (on April 20th).  His death was discussed in most brotherhood papers. Reuel Lemmons praised and eulogized Keeble, denounced the Civil Rights Movement and Martin Luther King Jr. He argued that Keeble had never suffered from discrimination in the Churches of Christ and that \"we are virtually free of race prejudice.\"  A black minister, Norman Adamson, responded to Lemmons in this manner:

I have searched myself deeply trying to decide if the editorial is based upon unbelievable racism on your part, gross ignorance of the conditions that have existed and still are very much in evidence in the Church, or maybe you were so emotionally upset by the death of Marshall Keeble that you have lost sight of reality. (Adamson in a private letter to Lemmons, quoted in Richard T. Hughes, Reviving The Ancient Faith, 296).

The fact of the matter is the Keeble was discriminated against nearly everyday of his life -- remember Wallace?  Most black Christians took considerable exception to the views of Lemmons or Rex Turner (who I have not had time to include) on Martin Luther King Jr.  We have heroes among us that stand in that \"Alternative\" tradition. They are folks like Fred D. Gray, minister of the Tuskegee Church of Christ, attorney for Dr. King, Rosa Parks, the Montgomery Improvement Association, the Selma marchers, etc; Roosevelt Wells, G.P. Holt, John Allen Chalk, and many, many others.  

We have two traditions: on prominent and the other quite \"distant.\"  But it is there and it refuses to be silent.  We can find value and courage for addressing our continual struggle with this issue in this second alternate stream of the Churches of Christ.

FIVE SUGGESTIONS FOR DIRECTION

1) Confess, Repent (as Nehemiah did) and take the Message of the Prophets seriously. Study Amos carefully for biblical justice and learn to practice love for neighbor.

2) Honestly talk and listen to each other.  Most of the time we talk at each other.  One cannot be dispassionate about this subject but until we actually start to understand one another nothing but sparks will fly.

3) Become open to Black History and make it your own. When you think of heroes include Benjamin Banneker, Frederick Douglass, Sojourner Truth, W.E.B. DuBois, Martin Luther King, Jr. along with George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.  When you think of great spiritual giants think of the black Alexander Campbell, the courage of S.R. Cassius, G.P. Bowser, Marshall Keeble, R. N. Hogan, and Fred D. Gray and many more.  Have a special black history day at your congregation during February each year for the purpose of getting to know the culture and heroes -- for expanding your experience and horizon.

4) Get involved with one another on many levels: congregationally and individually.  Get blacks integrated into your congregation. Use them in visible positions like deacons, elders, ministers. Support a black person going to a Christian collge.  Notice in Deuteronomy 15.12-18 when the \"slave\" was set free that it was the former owner who was commanded to make sure the one liberated was to be able to make it as a free person (\"supply him liberally from your own flock, your threshing floor, and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD has blessed you.\" [v.14].  This seems to suggest we are to help others in ways so they are never enslaved again!

5) Practive the biblical imperative of justice.  The Churches of Christ have not included this in the \"restoration\" agenda by and large.  The Gospel includes social ramifications that our brotherhood due to sin has not come to grips with. We must practice Justice, Mercy and Faithfulness.  Jesus said it, so it must be sound doctrine.

Finally we need a healthy dose of love, grace and forgiveness for each other.  Without that this enterprise is doomed before it gets started.\"
_

Thus ended my presentation in 1997. It was followed by lively debate but was nonetheless good natured.

Any Reactions,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

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« Reply #17 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 15:30:02 »
Bobby Valentine,


You have several pm's from me already.  Please read them and then I'll send you another one.

If memory serves me correctly, the information on McGarvey came out of Leroy Garrett's \"The Stone-Campbell Movement.\"   It has been a while since reading it so I could be mistaken.   I do remember reading what I said about McGarvey and it is a fact, though the source may be lost to my mind.  I confronted one of my old preachers who was the \"CoC or Gehenna\" types with the sin of McGarvey and told him if McFlunky could not be trusted to learn racism was wrong, he was not qualified to be an authority on instruments, baptism, ect.  

Foy Wallace was an opportunist who went around preaching because he was too lazy to get honest work as a field hand, which was about all he probably could do.  The fact your elders and preachers cowardly gave heed to such condemns them as illegitimate leaders and kiss ups.

Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #18 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 17:21:13 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (david johnson @ Feb. 15 2003,5:12)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]i'm older than most of us here, and i always was taught about the eunuch, simon of cyrene, and the wife being black.
maybe the arkansas church of Christ(s) were always ahead of the editors in recognizing truth.
i'm sad so many folks have never figured this issue out and hateful things were said.

dj[/quote]
David praise God your experience did not match mine. However, I have some roots in Arkansas (Paragould) and know some sad attitudes in that area as well.  Perhaps they are isolated though.  I hope.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

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« Reply #19 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 17:45:21 »
I am glad David Lipscomb was against all that foolishness over race and allowed those men to write against it.

Offline spurly

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« Reply #20 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 21:05:53 »
Bobby,

The article you linked to with letters by David Lipscomb and others was truly a joy to read.  Thanks for the link.  I am glad to see, that even well over 100 years ago, people were accepting other races and were willing to stand up for them - just like they were standing up for God.

I sadly remember when we tried to get children of a different race and socio-economic status to come to our church in eastern NC in the early 1990's.  Some of the same arguments used by the people in the article were used by some of the members of our church.  \"Let them worship with people of their own color\"; \"they won't enjoy our worship\", etc.  Luckily, the leaders of the church stood up for these children like David Lipscomb did over 100 years ago.

There was one line in the article I would like to quote and make further comment on.  It was this one:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
I tried to write this in the spirit of Christ, I know; for I hate to see strife in the church. We would like everything to be run nicely and in order. [/quote]

I hate it when people use this verse of Paul to say that if they don't like what is being done - or if some other people in the church don't like it - whether it is worshipping with people of other races, different worship styles, lifting hands, everyone praying out loud at the same time, or something else, it can't be done because it seems out of order to them.  This is a gross misrepresentation of Paul's words.  But so many people do that to advance their own personal agendas.  I pray I am never guilty of it.

Kevin

Offline Bobby Valentine

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« Reply #21 on: Sun Feb 16, 2003 - 07:12:15 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (david johnson @ Feb. 16 2003,02:48)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]barry:

segregation = sin?  you must prove this.  
it's a distasteful practice ususally arising from prejudiced attitudes,  but that doesn't make it sin.

dj[/quote]
David, good morning from the land of beer and cheese. I read with great curiosity your question to Barry.  I need to ask you you if this is what you really want to say?  

Segregation is a sin.  Even if the word \"segregation\" is not used in Scripture it is still condemned.  It fails the Love your neighbor as yourself test, it fails the don't be a respector of persons test, it fails the justice test that pervades Scripture.  

Perhaps a refinement of the question would be in order.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

Offline Booty

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« Reply #22 on: Sun Feb 16, 2003 - 19:48:21 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (david johnson @ Feb. 16 2003,04:48)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]barry:

segregation = sin?  you must prove this.  
it's a distasteful practice ususally arising from prejudiced attitudes,  but that doesn't make it sin.

dj[/quote]
You shall love your neighbor as yourself

Segregation has no part of this and as such is sin. Segregation is the result of racism. It is not simply a a distasteful practice ususally arising from prejudiced attitudes., it is a sinful practice arising from sinful attitudes.

Here I will go even farther, Paul is frequently perverted by legalists to allow judging with in the church body on trivial matters. To do this 1 Corinthians 5:12&13 are used,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]12.For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?  
 13.  God judges those outside. \"Drive out the wicked person from among you.\"[/quote]

This conveniently takes the verses out of context where Paul was addressing the quite problematical church in Corinth which was given to horrible excesses, (e.g. a son sleeping with his father's wife.) Among the excesses Paul took the time to specifically enumerate was reviler, railer, is abusive,  loidoros, a blackguard.

I firmly consider racism as abusive and will not tolerate it period.

Now that may make me a prime candidate to be disfellowshipped by many who wallow in this filthy sin. So be it, for frankly I can not lose what I do not have and I do not have fellowship with a racist.    
 

Yes, Brojees, the perpetual liberal, certainly does have his limits, but like Paul my limits are not trivial foolishness like playing instruments in service or women wearing pants etc. My limits are in sharing fellowship with bigots who choose to abuse their brothers on the basis of colour.

Offline david johnson

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« Reply #23 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 04:50:34 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Barry Manners @ Feb. 16 2003,11:11)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If only I hadn't promised Lee Wilson I would not invite Infidels over to GCM.

They would have a field day with David Johnson needing racism to be proven a sin.[/quote]
barry, et al:

these replies display an interesting rainbow.  the mental prisms through which our thoughts broadcast quickly filter out the possible unconsidered responses.

i have been in two communities where chruch segregation was voluntarily upheld by the black community.  without ill-will, they turned down invitations to combine with area white congregations of equal size.  there are times racial groups wish to remain identifiable and adopt a voluntary segregated cohesion among themselves, w/o it being sinful.

some of us always equate segregation with racsim.  i simply request proof of a concept and implicative questions appear coloring me as one wishing 'things' were as before.  i'm threatened with internet infidels having a field day over a question i did not even  ask?  as though ii's even believe in sin.  i like you as always, barry, but that one is a laugher!

dj

Offline Arkstfan

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« Reply #24 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 10:32:48 »
I guess we have \"progressed\" in that our segergation is voluntary but we are a long way from being one people.

We remain locked into our comfort zones and don't reach across the artifical divide. A congregation I attended a few years ago probably did a better job in this matter than any I've been around. Located in a very white suburb they didn't shy away from interacting with a neighboring church that was as black as they were white (each had a sprinkling of members of the other race). After a rocky start a sister congregation relationship developed with a good amount of interaction. Together they could have been a large congregation of well over 500 but neither had the infrastructure to handle a merged congregation and neither was well located geographically to serve as a merged congregation so they stayed as seperate congregations serving their neighborhoods. The \"white\" congregation focused on serving senior citizens as its emphasis outreach and the \"black\" congregation focused on poor with children. Members with an interest in the other's project went over and served with the other. Rather than duplicating services  they would transport those with a need to the other (the white congregation had people who were skilled at getting services and assistance for the elderly and dealing with related gov't programs and vice versa).

About twice a year they would host a joint evening gathering a local meeting facility. One congregation would be responsible for presenting the devotional and the other responsible for singing and would alternate. The preachers for each congregation would emphasize that when they ate you shouldn't be at table with anyone from your congregation except your spouse or kids.

It was a nice step.

Offline James Rondon

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« Reply #25 on: Mon Feb 17, 2003 - 17:32:10 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why do we tolerate it the way we do?[/quote]
I believe that \"we\" tolerate racism the way that \"we\" do because of who it is that is racist. If the elders, preachers, teachers, and deacons were all anti-racism, things would be different. Unfortunately, the \"movers and shakers\"... the \"leadership\"... the whatever you want to call \"them\", are not all that way in the church. Some are either \"closet racists\", or someone in their family is, or... They know of \"Brother So and So\", who had always taught such \"sound\" lessons, and is highly respected in the \"brotherhood\". They know that this \"brother\" was clearly racist, so they keep silent... After all... To take a stand against racism would be to speak against him! And, if he is still alive, it would mean that he would need to repent!... If he didn't, well... We can't withdraw from \"Brother So and So\"!!! (cf. Gal. 1:10).

Aside from this, the \"people in the pews\" tend to elevate sins based upon the teaching from the pulpit... Be it in the form of the Sunday morning sermon, a series of lectures/\"Gospel Meetings\", a \"brotherhood\" paper, etc., etc.... What the preachers say, the people, largely in part, believe. If it's an issue to them, it becomes an issue to \"us\"... Likewise, if it's not an issue to them, it's not an issue to \"us\".

Offline Booty

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« Reply #26 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 04:35:04 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I believe that \"we\" tolerate racism the way that \"we\" do because of who it is that is racist. If the elders, preachers, teachers, and deacons were all anti-racism, things would be different. Unfortunately, the \"movers and shakers\"... the \"leadership\"... the whatever you want to call \"them\", are not all that way in the church. Some are either \"closet racists\", or someone in their family is, or... They know of \"Brother So and So\", who had always taught such \"sound\" lessons, and is highly respected in the \"brotherhood\". They know that this \"brother\" was clearly racist, so they keep silent... After all... To take a stand against racism would be to speak against him! And, if he is still alive, it would mean that he would need to repent!... If he didn't, well... We can't withdraw from \"Brother So and So\"!!! (cf. Gal. 1:10).[/quote]

Does any realize the depth of iniquity that exists in what James is proposing as a precipative and sustaining cause? Oh I suspect that sadly he has exposed the true cause, but I also see the depth of depravity that this reveals.

This must not stand. Each and everyone of us has the right and the RESPONSIBILITY to stand up and clarify when a heresy such as this is promulgated from our \"Leaders\". The very idea that a people could sit by tranquilly while such a despicable perversion of the Lord's gospel is perpetrated is totally unacceptable.

I for one do not care where, when or with whom, the minute I hear hate spewing from the pulpit, I will stand up and I will demand clarification of the speakers intent and I will denounce it if it is racist in the strongest terms. That is my sacred duty before my Lord, there is not and can not be any thought of \"Polite\" and \"Order\" in this issue or others like it. Where is the \"politeness\" and \"order\" in a sermon of HATE? And what place does a sermon of HATE have in the house of the Lord?

For me, to remain silent would be to join in the sin, period.

So knowing this, who would invite me to visit your church for Sunday services?






If this stand of mine and my admitted planned actions causes you discomfort for the uproar I might cause in your congregation, than perhaps it is time you went to Him in prayer and gave serious thought to what you are allowing to continue and why.

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« Reply #27 on: Sun Feb 16, 2003 - 23:11:50 »
If only I hadn't promised Lee Wilson I would not invite Infidels over to GCM.

They would have a field day with David Johnson needing racism to be proven a sin.

Offline Barb1957

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« Reply #28 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 12:37:51 »
Booty, if you and Sandi ever find yourselves in Nashville and have a chance to worship with us at the West End C of C congregation, please do. You would be most welcome. You'd love our preacher and elders!

I agree with you, racism shouldn't be tolerated or accepted from the pulpit and/or church leadership - or anywhere, but especially from them - what kind of leaders would that be? Certainly not Christlike ones!  But also just to add ... sometimes as much as we desire things to change for the better, for the right, it can also sometimes take time for God's Spirit to work in people.  Sometimes a change of heart toward people can be as instantaneous and miraculous as that of Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus. With others, that change can take time and happens gradually.  Not to tolerate error, just saying that when someone is trying and desires to allow God to work in them and change them, we need to be patient, prayerful and helpful toward them.

Offline Barb1957

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« Reply #29 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 14:10:43 »
Coolness, Booty!
Diggin' the 'fro smilie!

Offline spurly

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« Reply #30 on: Tue Feb 18, 2003 - 21:32:17 »
Okay booty, how do I take the smilies from that page to my post  ???

Kevin

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« Reply #31 on: Wed Feb 19, 2003 - 08:52:37 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (samloveall @ Feb. 19 2003,07:49)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]{snip}
You have to be careful when you quote from \"The Autobiography of Malcolm X\".  Why? {snip}[/quote]
I quoted Malcolm and I think The Autobiography is a facinating work.  I encourage everyone to read the book as a way to \"contextualize\" what is sometimes referred to as \"black rage.\"  

True Malcolm's attitudes towards whites did soften (after his trip to Mecca and intro to real Islam).  However, I quote the book (and give page references by the way)  to show how Christians produced an attitude in him that said no black could be a Christian and preserve his/her dignity.  And near as I can tell, Malcolm retained that view until his death.  A truly fascinating work that compares the work of Dr. King and Malcolm is

Martin & Malcolm & America: A Dream or a Nightmare

by black theologian James H. Cone.  Truly insightful study.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

Offline Talulah

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« Reply #32 on: Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 13:18:38 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In your response to me you say those who pay attention to historical and literary context are simply trying to reconcile our present moral beliefs with the 1st century.  Then in the next you state that you know Paul was not a racist and what you were taught was not biblical!  Did Paul live in the 1st century??

No, folks who pay attention to historical and literary context are not trying to do as you assert [/quote]

No, there was no inherant contradiction in what I said.  In the comment I made about historical context, I was referring to people who try to justify slavery in the bible.  The fact that Paul wasn't racist (against Greeks) is another topic.  Again, slavery and racism aren't tied in the bible, however much they may be tied in our consciousness.

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« Reply #33 on: Thu Feb 20, 2003 - 21:33:13 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Talulah @ Feb. 20 2003,6:25)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]:blush:

Sorry.  I did mean to say as well that you are right about Christians leading the movement to end slavery.  I am particularly impressed with the record of the Quakers.[/quote]
Greetings from a much warmer land of Beer and cheese  :clap:

Yes, the Quakers have a good record on the slavery issue.  But the reform impulse was not limited to them.  Charles Finney, the great revivalist for example, links revival directly to the abolition of slavery (the Dayton book I cited has a wonderful chapter on Finney's abolitionism).   But I will wait for further comment from you so our dialogue can move forward.  

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
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« Reply #34 on: Sat Feb 15, 2003 - 14:59:53 »
The former Church of Christ folks over at Infidels had a very long in depth discussion on racism in the CoC a year or two ago.  The thing we could not understand is that there are plenty of passages in the Bible that condemn racism, yet the CoC was not able to transcend the culture around it on this matter.  The church neglected and passed over stories such as 1. Moses taking an Ethiopian for a wife (some versions say Cushite), 2. Simon of Cyrene (in Africa) helping Christ the the cross, 3. the Ethipian eunuch being given much personal attention by Philip and 4. verses saying we are all one in \"Christ\" despite being Jew or Greek, rich or poor.  We pretty much came to the conclusion that the preachers and elders just did not have the guts to stand up for what the Bible taught or did not really believe it and think it was worth standing up for.

One particular story was told by an infidel who attended one of your big universities up in Arkansas or Tennessee.   They had a custom of burning a cross once a year to show zeal for the Lord or whatever.  One black student objected and he was basically told to just shut up and deal with it.

There is no excuse for what Foy Wallace did or any of those preachers who opposed the Civil Rights Movement.  They knew what the Bible taught and willfully chose to ignore it for fear of losing supporters.  If you doubt this, come over and discuss it at MY board.

One last thing I want to share concerns your almost-Christ J.W. McGarvey.  He had a nasty habit of going around at voting time with a gang of hoodlums scaring blacks into not voting.  He wouldn't let just plain racism suffice, he had to add insult to injury.  He would make a black person drink a whole jug of castor oil at gun point just to spite.  You people qoute McGarvey like he was God himself, yet this man couldn't even figure out racism was wrong.  Some expert if you ask me.

 

     
anything