GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ  (Read 11909 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bobby Valentine

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« on: February 15, 2003, 02:17:16 PM »
Barry I confess that many of our folks are far from perfect.  I confess the same for myself.  I fall so far short of the glory of God it is pathetic!  I pray every day that folks are not turned off to the Lord because of my sin.  

I also take comfort in the fact, however, that the truth of Jesus Christ does not depend upon Bobby Valentine but upon HIS life, HIS love, HIS teachings, HIS death, HIS resurrection. These are flawless. They are beyond a shadow of doubt.  I tell folks at Southside that I am a pitiful servant of God -- so please make sure your eyes are focuses upon HIM.  

With that said I confess Wallace, I confess Tant, I confess McGarvey.  But as much as I disagree with any of them on this topic and worldview I still do not have the authority or righteousness to be their Judge.  I simply praise God that he had me born now and not then!

I closed my speech by saying we needed a heavy dose of \"forgiveness\" \"grace\" and \"love\" -- without that we will not make it.  I believe it as much now as I did in 1997.  

One final thing, I would like the reference on McGarvey that you allude too.  I doubt not that he had basically racist views but I am unaware of the behavior you credit him with.  I could be wrong and if so I will gladly admit it.  So if you can please PM me the reference I will look it up.  But until we meet again I pray this for you:

\"May the LORD bless you and keep you; May the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; May the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace\" (Numbers 6.24ff).

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

Christian Forums and Message Board

Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« on: February 15, 2003, 02:17:16 PM »

  • Guest
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2003, 04:18:39 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Bobby Valentine @ Feb. 15 2003,4:25)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Bobby Valentine,

[snip]

Foy Wallace was an opportunist who went around preaching because he was too lazy to get honest work as a field hand, which was about all he probably could do.  The fact your elders and preachers cowardly gave heed to such condemns them as illegitimate leaders and kiss ups.[/quote]
Barry, greetings from the Land of Beer and Cheese.  I will respond to your PM's as best I can.  I have not responded so far because I did not know how to.

As for selling out to Wallace I think I demonstrated in my speech -- which is far from complete -- there was and is an alternate tradition to Wallace.  There have been many brave and godly saints who have stood up to racism and the church is changing.  The church is a refugee church -- always has been and always will be.  We still have a ways to go more than likely.  But like an alchoholic the first step forward is admitting error.   Jesus remains however.  It is to him we look to.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI[/quote]
Bobby,


I have no doubt that people opposed Wallace and his racism.  I see no reason to doubt the integrity of the sources you cited.  It is just for the \"mainstream\" CoCer there was no alternative view or opposition to Wallace.  Those who opposed him and his views were never heard by the other 99% of the membership.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2003, 04:18:39 PM »

  • Guest
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2003, 04:57:44 PM »
Now, explain to me why Foy Wallace was able to get by all the foolishness he spewed?

Offline Bobby Valentine

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2003, 08:54:10 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Guest @ Feb. 15 2003,8:33)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]This is an article I wrote with regards to my racist upbringing in the Church of Christ.

http://www.talulah.twistedpair.net/racism.htm[/quote]
Talulah, greetings from the Land of Beer and Cheese.  Thanks for contributing to this thread and the link to your struggle with racism and its dreadful results in your life.  I see the pain and anguish in each line of your lament.

Let me make a few observations, if I may.  1) Part of the problem I see in your experience is hermeneutical. By that I mean a perspective that took a slavishly literal -- perhaps crassly literal -- approach to Scripture.  An approach that failed to take into account either historical context or literary context much less questions of literary genres.  

2) Part of the problem I see is theological.  By that I mean Paul did not overtly condemn slavery but he did absolutely redefine what slavery meant.  Further he showed how folks from widely different backgrounds became a single new humanity in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2.11-22).  In fact I encourage you to read through the entire letter to the Ephesians searching for the phrase \"one\"; \"one new man\" etc.  Paul's whole argument in Ephesians is that both Gentile and Jew are saved by grace so that neither had superiority over the other.  Ephesians is not about doctrinal unity rather it is about racial unity in Christ.  You can find similiar themes in Colossians but not as thematically integral to the letter as in Ephesians.  

3) The third problem I see is historical.  One of the common mistakes that proslavery advocates made in defending such (as in James Smiley who was the Apostle of Slavery prior to the Civil War) is the rather naive and completly unhistorical assumption that slavery in the Roman Empire was anything akin to American Slavery.  American slavery was based solely upon race and was founded upon the doctrine of racial inferiority.  Race nothing to do with slavery in the Ancient world -- it was purely economic.  Slaves had opportunities to redeem themselves in ways that never occured in the US.  

To read US slavery back into the NT or even the Hebrew Bible is thus hermeneutically, theologically and historically wrong.  There was plenty of racism in the Ancient world but it was not \"white vs. black\" it was Greek vs. everyone; it was Jew vs. everyone (and they are basically the same color).  However in the Ancient world there was no stigma attached to be African.  That is a modern sin.

Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Milwaukee, WI

Christian Forums and Message Board

Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2003, 08:54:10 PM »

Offline david johnson

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3518
  • Manna: 66
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2003, 01:48:39 AM »
barry:

segregation = sin?  you must prove this.  
it's a distasteful practice ususally arising from prejudiced attitudes,  but that doesn't make it sin.

dj

Christian Forums and Message Board

Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2003, 01:48:39 AM »



Offline patriciaredstone

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 865
  • Manna: 4
  • Moderator
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2003, 04:55:31 PM »
I probably should not post since I have not read this thread. But, after chuch today, my husband and I were discussing the old, sick and ever-lingering prejudice and racism for which our own congregation can't bear to sign the \"Do Not Resusitate\" order.

We just installed a new deacon who was hesitant to accept because he has \"a problem with there being 3 mixed race couples at church.\"

We thought it would be better for the church if his new position was balanced with a black brother ... even a latino or asian (All white elders and deacons and four salaried ministers at our 500+member church! despite a 25% and growing ethnic minority.) But the elders said that all of the names of the brothers we submited (as you would expect from such a leadership, women -- regardless of color -- are out of the question.), even though they are moral, wise, good husbands and neighbors, fantastic bible students, caring and attentive fathers, benevolent servants and shepherds of the flock, they did not qualify for leadership postitions because they had \"more than one wife.\"

They insist, that regardless of the circumstances, divorce excludes these men.

In my opinion, this interpretation of \"more than one wife\" is prolonging the healing of the nations and has become one of the little foxes that ravage the vineyard.

Offline James Rondon

  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19756
  • Manna: 1745
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2003, 10:20:16 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]dj wrote:
segregation = sin?  you must prove this.[/quote]
Maybe this will help a little...
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?\" (Gal. 2:11-14, KJV; cf. 3:26-28)[/quote]



[!--EDIT|James Rondon|Feb. 16 2003,11:23--]

Offline Booty

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2123
  • Manna: 3
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2003, 04:10:08 AM »
Sorry, but no quarter can be given.

As difficult as it is to accept, we all speak the same language. With that thought clearly in mind, I believe it becomes self evident that when BH referred to segregation on a racism based thread in the negative sense as being sinful, no amount of semantic manuevering would be capable of denying this.

When David responded describing the practice negatively, he concurred with BH's negative interpretation of the use of the word and negated in this particular discussion the perspective of positive segregation.
I look around my family, I see loved ones. I see fellow Christians and those we pray daily may come to know and love our Lord. I see men, women, boys and girls; brothers, sisters, wife, in laws, sons, daughters, mother, father, aunts, uncles and cousins. I realize that some would see Whites, Blacks, Browns and Yellows for all those are present in my immediate family when I am forced to think about it, but I just see those I love.

My Mum's family rejected my Da and her for his ethnic heritage, my Da's family rejected my Mum and him for her cultural and ethnic heritage. My Mum's people are subjected to bigotry for their lifestyle by a people who are themselves subjected to bigotry for their predominant religion and their ethnic heritage. My Da's people committed some of the most henious crimes of racism the world has ever witnessed.  

My cousins and I have all resolved before our God that this will not continue in our generation and generations to come in our family. As well we are resolved that we will confront racism without fear whenever it rears it's ugly and sinful head. It truly is time for the SIN of racism and segregation to end, and with us it has.

Offline janine

  • Guardian-Patroller of Lee's Outer Darkness
  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14001
  • Manna: 370
  • Gender: Female
  • Good Stuff
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2003, 01:18:26 PM »
One of several reasons for wanting so eagerly to come and work with my congregation, mentioned by the new preacher we just hired, is the factor of our congregation being racially & ethnically mixed & everyone working so well & enthusiastically together.

Heh, the poor man may be dreadfully disillusioned by us when he & his wife & child come to us this summer... but at least we've something good and Christlike to work with, in the area of our purposeful fight against inter-Christian racism.


Note to Kari re: Bob's story:
I don't think the idiot Klansman, with the negative reaction to the Black lady being immersed, was a member of the Lord's church.  I understood Bob calling him a \"Christian\" to mean that the man did so, but that Bob wondered how he could make the claim.  I wonder if I'm reading that into it, and he was a blood-washed forgiven believer?
 
Also, per 1Co 6:18 (The Message version), this would be why people harp so on sexual sin & seem to ignore the less visible ones:[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]There is a sense in which sexual sins are different from all others. In sexual sin we violate the sacredness of our own bodies, these bodies that were made for God-given and God-modeled love, for \"becoming one\" with another.[/quote]

Offline kmv

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2076
  • Manna: 64
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2003, 03:59:53 PM »
But, would the homosexual activist even get the benefit of our, \"well, he claims to be a Christian...\"  Not from what I've seen here and elsewhere, so why do we so often treat racism as ignorance, rather than sin?

I have heard the 1Cor 6 reference before, and I do understand that sexual immorality is a sin even though it seems to 'hurt' no one, because it hurts our selves.  

But there is nothing I've ever seen in scripture to justify ranking sexual sin as 'worse' than others; in fact, v. 10 above lists thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers along with the sexually impure as those who won't inherit God's Kingdom.  

When's the last time you heard someone speak out against slander?  Who carries on about the pro-greed agenda?  Why do we make one sin worse than others when God never did?

In fact, since the hate-based sins go straight against the law of Love that Jesus brought us, I'd say racism definitely beats out homosexuality.

Why do we tolerate it the way we do?

Kari

Offline Nevertheless

  • Global Moderator
  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11962
  • Manna: 415
  • Gender: Female
  • Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord!
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2003, 11:04:44 PM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In fact, since the hate-based sins go straight against the law of Love that Jesus brought us, I'd say racism definitely beats out homosexuality.

Why do we tolerate it the way we do?
[/quote]


Is it perhaps because of the little bit of racist inside each of us?  Isn't it \"natural\" to be drawn to those who are like us?  Isn't it \"natural\" to be wary of those who are different?  We all react that way to a certain extent, so it is easier to excuse such behavior.

However, as God replaces the \"natural\" within us with the spiritual, sin of all kinds becomes less tolerable.  So perhaps if we tolerate racism it is because we haven't grown enough to recognize it as sin?

Never

Offline Booty

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2123
  • Manna: 3
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2003, 09:52:32 AM »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (janine @ Feb. 18 2003,10:53)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Booty, if I stood to speak out against every heresy or error or bit of stupidity I hear from the preaching pulpit and the teaching lecturn, I'd have thighs the size of Wales from all the up,down,up,down,up,down...[/quote]
Well Janine my beloved sister. I would still love you, Welsh thighs and all, we would still love you, Mike would still love you and most certainly Jesus would still love you!!



Hmmm Could all that rising and setting also affect the size of one's paunch??   Or is it just simply not rising soon enough from the table?  Ach and Sandi is now baking and selling pastries, delicious creamy pastries, Tres Leches, Chocolate Marquesa, El Bosque Negro, Cafe au lait!!. I have honestly swollen to the point they could float me for that tyre manufacturer, Good...Ok yanks who has the blimp?

Brojees is now on a very strict diet and aching from exercise!!!

Offline kmv

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2076
  • Manna: 64
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2003, 01:46:24 PM »
I think Never really has something important here-our natural tendency to divide into 'us' and the 'other'.

I think we have to do more than just put away our overtly racist attitudes.  We have to look at ourselves and try to see when that tendency to prefer those like ourselves is keeping us from understanding our brothers and sisters.

This is why I personally think racial preferences are still called for.

Offline Booty

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2123
  • Manna: 3
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2003, 08:53:39 PM »
Click on them to look at the, when you find one you like,
copy the location and the call up the Image command right side of your edit page and paste it in!





Offline samloveall

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 377
  • Manna: 33
  • Gender: Male
  • Sam Loveall
    • View Profile
Racial Attitudes in Churches of Christ
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2003, 06:49:10 AM »
Going back to the quotation from Malcolm X . . .

You have to be careful when you quote from \"The Autobiography of Malcolm X\".  Why?

It's a fascinating book.  The facination I find with it is that the Malcolm X who beings the book on page one is almost nothing like the Malcolm X who closes the book.  Along the way, as he writes (with Alex Haley's Help) in first-person, you see his attitudes change; you feel his growing disillusionment with what he was and with the whole Elijah Muhammed thing;  you see his sharpness against whites soften;  you see him begin to embrace humanity.  It's just an incredible read.  You should work though it when you can.

The reason I said you have to be careful when you quote him is that his opinions on pretty much everything change as he undergoes his transformation.  Many of the ideas he writes early or midway through the book, he repudiates toward the end, or he at least softens on many of them.  

I'm not saying the quotation here was wrong or wrongly applied . . . it's been a few years since I last read through it, so I don't know which part of the book, and which part of his life, the quotation comes from.  You might want to double-sheck it and see.