Real Restoration

[Arkstfan]

I believe we are called to restoration.

We are here to restore people to their God. We are here to restore the earth to as close to the state of the Garden as we can which is as close to Heaven as we can get until God finally restores order.

That means healing the sick, feeding the hungry, clothing people, and displaying God's love.

If the best I have to offer to demonstrate I am in Christ is that I used the right method to read the Bible, got the wine vs. Welch's argument right, and got the music issue right, I will see quickly how far the grace of Jesus Christ extends.

Why do we have welfare and other such aid programs? Because there was need that wasn't being met by the people of Christ. Why are we debating health care? Because it has become hard for business to do our job of healing the sick.

If we are a Christian nation why did we ever let it go to such a state that anyone ever thought it was a good idea to get government involved in carrying out the things God expects us to do?

We have been so busy glorifying Satan with our endless and tedious debates that all around us despair has been ignored. Antidepressants are the most commonly prescribed drugs in the US with over 10% taking them. While some people obviously have a chemical issue to be treated, we are an unhappy nation. Another 5.5% find their comfort in alcohol addiction and roughly similar numbers by using some sort illicit drug. An estimated half of all suicides, murders, and accidental deaths involve alcohol. People seek comfort in chemicals or illicit sexual relationships, how many could have avoided that pain and torment if they just felt the love of God expressed in the body of Christ?

The failure to bring people into the love of Christ destroys not just them but innocent victims as well.

But at least with a few more debates we can finally solve the important things like old hymns vs. new.

[Johnb]

Good points Ark. 
This one is very telling.
quote
If we are a Christian nation why did we ever let it go to such a state that anyone ever thought it was a good idea to get government involved in carrying out the things God expects us to do?
 

[blituri]

The Ekklesia or Synagogue was never defined as a benevolent society.  People attend the BIBLE STUDY once a week to prepare THEM for the ministry. If the church invents a PROGRAM it guarantees that lots of people will let that be THEIR work and only a small band of overworked people will do the work.

There is no LAW OF GIVING so the church has no FUNDING for whatever program or professional PROGRAMMER you hire to oversee the work. 

Eph. 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Eph. 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Eph. 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph. 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Individuals do ministries and benevolence: institutes take from the destitute.

All of the debate is caused by people seeing the Christian System as a "means of financial gain." To that end they IMPOSE that which they believe will collect enough bodies to keep from getting fired.

The DEBATES are the system of a disfunctional institutional system and the CAUSE that all of that money given to the LORD does not carry out your proposed program

[Livelysword]

I believe we are called to restoration.

We are here to restore people to their God. We are here to restore the earth to as close to the state of the Garden as we can which is as close to Heaven as we can get until God finally restores order.

That means healing the sick, feeding the hungry, clothing people, and displaying God's love.

If the best I have to offer to demonstrate I am in Christ is that I used the right method to read the Bible, got the wine vs. Welch's argument right, and got the music issue right, I will see quickly how far the grace of Jesus Christ extends.

Why do we have welfare and other such aid programs? Because there was need that wasn't being met by the people of Christ. Why are we debating health care? Because it has become hard for business to do our job of healing the sick.

If we are a Christian nation why did we ever let it go to such a state that anyone ever thought it was a good idea to get government involved in carrying out the things God expects us to do?

We have been so busy glorifying Satan with our endless and tedious debates that all around us despair has been ignored. Antidepressants are the most commonly prescribed drugs in the US with over 10% taking them. While some people obviously have a chemical issue to be treated, we are an unhappy nation. Another 5.5% find their comfort in alcohol addiction and roughly similar numbers by using some sort illicit drug. An estimated half of all suicides, murders, and accidental deaths involve alcohol. People seek comfort in chemicals or illicit sexual relationships, how many could have avoided that pain and torment if they just felt the love of God expressed in the body of Christ?

The failure to bring people into the love of Christ destroys not just them but innocent victims as well.

But at least with a few more debates we can finally solve the important things like old hymns vs. new.

Lively:  I believe we are called unto salvation... and given command to teach others the good news.  We are commanded to teach others of Jesus Christ...  if one never brings another, its may not be his fault if another makes choice not to have salvation... in the days of Noah... being a preacher of righteousness, who went into the ark with him but his wife, three children and their wives... that is it...  that is it.. just his family...  what he was told to do was to preach to the world of a flood to come and to change their ways and seek God...


Rom 1:6  Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


Rom 1:7  To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


2Th 2:14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


1Pe 5:10  But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.



We are called of Jesus, called to be saints, called by the gospel... called to the obtaining of the glory of the Lord, called to receive the promise of eternal inheritance...

[Johnb]

Ark is not trying to preach a purely social gospel.  However, feeding the hungry and taking care of the poor and sick is a major responsibility of a child of God.  Read Matt 25 then go repent over you NI stance.  He is pointing a true biblical truth and yes we would better serve God this way than arguing over how we do church.
 

[Arkstfan]

If you have not fed the hungry, visited the prisoner, clothed naked, and nursed the sick, then you have built for the kingdom with straw and will be lucky to escape the cleansing fire.

Read Matthew 25 and James 5. Read the volumes of verses in both testaments regarding the poor.

No follower of Christ denies that we are to show compassion, love, and mercy to the poor, the oppressed, the hungry. Any who deny that deny the Lord Jesus himself.

[Arkstfan]

For those who want less government.

53% of your Federal tax dollars are spent to perform tasks the church has chosen to not perform.

[Johnb]

Ark
As you know I am for less government.  I also stand with you in saying we the church lived up to our obligation of taking care of the poor we would have no need for big government. 

[Arkstfan]

Ark
As you know I am for less government.  I also stand with you in saying we the church lived up to our obligation of taking care of the poor we would have no need for big government. 

I find it tragic that because of our failure, so many see government as their savior because they can see, touch, and taste what the government gives them while we bicker rather than them seeing followers of Christ as the ones treating their sick son, putting clothes on their back, and making sure they don't starve.

We could do it more cheaply, better tailored to needs, and make Jesus real to them all at the same time. :(

[Johnb]

  Ark. 

[Scoobydoo]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

The answer to many of our problems lies in Revelation 20:2. And, the fact that human nature is set in oppostition to God's.

We some times confuse "righteousness"  and as a point of fact...we have never ever been a Christian nation and never ever will be.

God works for unity  Satan works for division--and which is so prevelant among us today in our society??

Our job is not restoration..because we are not the author of the church--Christ is--

Human nature hmmmm what a good example---Watch Glen Beck on Fox--He is making the case for restoration of a different sort--yet human nature being what it is keeps getting in the way.

Scoobydoo

[DCR]

The answer to many of our problems lies in Revelation 20:2.

Are you sure that's the verse you intended to reference?


Revelation 20:2

And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

[Scoobydoo]

DCR, greetings in Chist from sunny Texas,

YES!!  ABSOLUTELY  i SAID---The answer to many of our problems lies in Revelation 20:2.   Upon reflection I would consider changing that to all of our problems lies in Revelatio n20:2

Scoobydoo

[Livelysword]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

The answer to many of our problems lies in Revelation 20:2. And, the fact that human nature is set in oppostition to God's.

We some times confuse "righteousness"  and as a point of fact...we have never ever been a Christian nation and never ever will be.

God works for unity  Satan works for division--and which is so prevelant among us today in our society??

Our job is not restoration..because we are not the author of the church--Christ is--

Human nature hmmmm what a good example---Watch Glen Beck on Fox--He is making the case for restoration of a different sort--yet human nature being what it is keeps getting in the way.

Scoobydoo

Lively:  I am reminded of the following... Just saying...


Mat 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


I like to think we as faithful Christians in this nation are bringing forth the fruits thereof, as this nation was founded upon many biblical principles...  obviously many in this nation do not hold to such principles, but there are those who do, which are bringing forth the fruits thereof.  Do we not in our prayers ask God to bless this our nation?  Has He not blessed this nation greatly for our sakes?

[DCR]

DCR, greetings in Chist from sunny Texas,

YES!!  ABSOLUTELY  i SAID---The answer to many of our problems lies in Revelation 20:2.   Upon reflection I would consider changing that to all of our problems lies in Revelatio n20:2

Scoobydoo

Would you elaborate?  Do you believe that Satan is currently bound for 1000 years, or is he not yet?  Is the 1000 years literal?

Or, perhaps, you're going a totally different direction with that verse.

[Scoobydoo]

DCR, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

you asked
Would you elaborate?  Do you believe that Satan is currently bound for 1000 years, or is he not yet?  Is the 1000 years literal?

Or, perhaps, you're going a totally different direction with that verse.

My response--Ok--I grew up Pentcostal\Baptist--so I have more than a passing interest i end time events.
Going to school provided me with the opportunity to study Revelation 20:1-6--I eventually after 4 + years settled for Revelation 20:1-5--OK?

I was sitting in my office in 1984 looking at that piece of paper and then I dug out the paper I turned in and started reading it again.

I had gotten a way through it when it struck me--I had not really and accurately done my job. So I used all the available resources and training and did another 3 plus year study on Revelation 20:2.

This verse is one of the verses in scripture that "FULLY DESCRIBES OUR COMMON ENEMY" AND  each of those names represents a methodology of attack against human beings--then and even now today.

As we come to grips with those descriptions--our adversary is our problem big time.  He is great at taking a half truth and making it a lie in the name of God.  He is a "master fisherman" of "human souls" and is totally uncaring about us as human beings.

Now, Since 1984 or so the church has undergone some redefinitions of "end time positions" which are not much like those taken in 1984. So, when I use a term it has a meaning that others may no longer grasp--yet it is that doctrine I see being taught under a new name.

As far as the verse in total--Revelations 20:1-5-- Satan is now in the abyss and IS NOW BOUND or RESTRAINED.

So far as can be determined--He is bound in as much as that the power He possessed over human beings before the human ministry of Christ.

Prior to the Jewish Messiah--for all practical purposes--Satan owed the world{human beings}. Every time the gospel is preached and it is obeyed that power is lessened.

The time of the 1,000 years is that "vastness of time" between his first and second coming".

Satan has a lot of willing followers here on the earth--so He keeps on attacking with much success human beings.

The danger is unseen--except when applied as the dragon--and even that is not well understood by men today--as they ascribe human reasons for what is going on.

While I am here and while it is somewhat germane--the "mark of the beast"  is that "mark in the forehead or right hand{understand what each of those words symbolizes--and not actual and necessarily physical in a readily identifying mark.

The people of God also have the mark of God in the forehead or on their right hand--so which master a person belongs to can be determined by one's actions.

For Satan this is not hard--

Keep people from being in the Jewish Messiah--i.e. World religions--Islam and etc. that has entrapped untold millions.

When that does not work--and folks read the scripture--Satan willingly engages in scriptural combat to keep the truth from being known and applied. Men have always sought the easier path to God and Satan is there willing to help.

So you can "believe" but Satan works to keep Baptism and actual salvation a mystery from human beings.  After all if you are told and everyone believes you that by just believing you are a Christian..who wants to knock that?

Then when that does not work and one is immersed in water in order to have their sins forgiven--not a big deal from our adversarys standpoint...He uses other people who wear the name Christian to destroy the faith of other Christians and to drive them away.

This is why Satan is our # 1 enemy and he disguises himself so well----well anyway that is how I know
Revelation 20:2 comes out as it does.

Many times when we question something--we think it is our idea and it really isn't.

Scoobydoo

[Johnb]

DCR
Bet that really cleared it up for you.

[DCR]

DCR
Bet that really cleared it up for you.

Uh huh.  "Totally different direction" was apparently right.  I'll have to read that through a couple more times to try to digest it.

[Johnb]

I thnk trying to digest that may give you indigestion.

And Scooby thinks those who don't hold to his view of scripture use subjective thinking.

[Scoobydoo]

Greetings in Christ to the indigestion minded folks,

Here was my statement again ---DCR, greetings in Chist from sunny Texas,

YES!!  ABSOLUTELY I SAID---The answer to many of our problems lies in Revelation 20:2.   Upon reflection I would consider changing that to all of our problems lies in Revelation 20:2.

DCR added the 1,000 year bit--so I just added to the picture-

"our problems" whether nation or church..come from Revelation 20:2.

Admitting that our adversary is smarter than we are is the place to begin and then understand the defense.

Knowing our adversary is bound--and how He is resticted and not restricted--His absolute contempt for mankind--and how he attacks--even though we often believe we are exempt--.

Take that with the fact--that you guys  cannot figure out why feet washing is not a command that needs to be followed today--You see Satan then allows you to use feet washing as a tool to not understand some other things.

Scoobydoo

[Johnb]

Scooby
Try to keep it real.  It is not that we can't figure out that foot washing is not commanded today.  It is just that if one follows the rules on CENI consistently it would be.  Big difference. 
Your conclusions on Re. by your own admission took you years to arrive at.  They are purely subjective.  As long as you hold them as personal beliefs that is fine.  It is only if you attempt to bind them on others that you become a legalist.  (I am not saying you are binding your Rev. views)

[DCR]

Take that with the fact--that you guys  cannot figure out why feet washing is not a command that needs to be followed today--You see Satan then allows you to use feet washing as a tool to not understand some other things.

Doesn't 1 Timothy 5:10 indicate that foot washing was a practice in the New Testament church?

1 Timothy 5
 9Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, 10and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work.

[Livelysword]

Scooby
Try to keep it real.  It is not that we can't figure out that foot washing is not commanded today.  It is just that if one follows the rules on CENI consistently it would be.  Big difference. 
Your conclusions on Re. by your own admission took you years to arrive at.  They are purely subjective.  As long as you hold them as personal beliefs that is fine.  It is only if you attempt to bind them on others that you become a legalist.  (I am not saying you are binding your Rev. views)

Lively:  Was Jesus a legalist for binding his view of the resurrection which he showed from Necessary Inference?  Trust me when I say, whatever the truth of Rev 20:2... it is binding...  The hard part is for you and others to figure out what it does mean in truth.   Yet we know that others will say, well that is just your interpretation... and you can not bind your interpretation upon us.  We hear that all the time from others, especially when it comes to baptism.   Jesus told us, if we continue in his word we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free.... he states we shall know the truth, but you have to study, and rightly divide the word of truth.   Again as taught many times on this board...  You can not dismiss CENIS if one is not applying it correctly, or think you do not have to accept the truth when the truth is taught.   Here is what I can tell you... the devil is not bound right now...  He is free and wandering around seeking whom he may devour.   You do understand that One day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day right?  We all know the revelation letter from John is full of figurative Language.

[Livelysword]

Take that with the fact--that you guys  cannot figure out why feet washing is not a command that needs to be followed today--You see Satan then allows you to use feet washing as a tool to not understand some other things.

Doesn't 1 Timothy 5:10 indicate that foot washing was a practice in the New Testament church?

1 Timothy 5
 9Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband, 10and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work.

Lively:  They still wore sandals and did a lot of walking as their way of getting around, and much of that was over dirty and dusty ground.  Nobody is saying that foot washing in those days did not have a place...  Did you at all read the letter which was posted the other day concerning foot washings?

[DCR]

So, the principle is that we don't necessarily have to follow New Testament examples if we can rationalize it.

[Johnb]

Yep!  For all their chest beating and thus saith the Lord talk that is exactly what they are saying.  It is binding when they say it is and not when they say it is not.  Everone that disagrees with them are just wrong.

Lively did you come to the exact same conclusions on Rev. 20:2 as Scooby before you saw what he wrote? Be honest now.

[Livelysword]

Yep!  For all their chest beating and thus saith the Lord talk that is exactly what they are saying.  It is binding when they say it is and not when they say it is not.  Everone that disagrees with them are just wrong.

Lively did you come to the exact same conclusions on Rev. 20:2 as Scooby before you saw what he wrote? Be honest now.

So, the principle is that we don't necessarily have to follow New Testament examples if we can rationalize it.

Lively:  Show the NT CENIS which teaches foot washing is commanded of us.

[Livelysword]

Yep!  For all their chest beating and thus saith the Lord talk that is exactly what they are saying.  It is binding when they say it is and not when they say it is not.  Everone that disagrees with them are just wrong.

Lively did you come to the exact same conclusions on Rev. 20:2 as Scooby before you saw what he wrote? Be honest now.

Lively:  I have not come to a conclusion as to Rev. 20:2.   I am open to the truth to what the verse teaches.

[zoonance]

Yep!  For all their chest beating and thus saith the Lord talk that is exactly what they are saying.  It is binding when they say it is and not when they say it is not.  Everone that disagrees with them are just wrong.

Lively did you come to the exact same conclusions on Rev. 20:2 as Scooby before you saw what he wrote? Be honest now.

So, the principle is that we don't necessarily have to follow New Testament examples if we can rationalize it.

Lively:  Show the NT CENIS which teaches foot washing is commanded of us.

 

[Scoobydoo]

Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

I think you are misunderstanding me a tad bit here.

you said--Scooby
Try to keep it real.  It is not that we can't figure out that foot washing is not commanded today.  It is just that if one follows the rules on CENI consistently it would be.  Big difference. 

My response--I am keeping it real and you are not getting it. You would if you understood "foot washing" and what it takes to make it work.  It is clear that you do not--yet one has no hesitation in throwing it in the pot to use against CENI.

next you said--

Your conclusions on Re. by your own admission took you years to arrive at.  They are purely subjective.  As long as you hold them as personal beliefs that is fine.  It is only if you attempt to bind them on others that you become a legalist.  (I am not saying you are binding your Rev. views)

My observation--Wrong, totally wrong here--What I gave briefly is precisely what the texts in Revelation 20 teach.

anyone following the basic principles of bible study--can arrive at this conclusion.

God gave all of us the same exact words--a carefull study of words in context and in culture--as they were given and as they were understood then--I am correct.

I don't give opinions--i give scripture AND I stay with it until by and with scripture I am shown to be in error.

I am not a liberal well it depends on which of me you are standing I guess--
The thousand years is "that vastness of time" between Christ's first and second coming.

Same thing with mark.  A roman General once marched a company of men off a cliff to show their obedience to his command.

Those four names in Revelation 20 are name given in scripture that clearly identifies the attack of our common adversary.

He is one reason you are no longer in the body of Christ and the sad thing is you allowed him to control you. Satan is a past master at this.

You do not so believe and I cannot help that..but that is what is happening.

No one makes any progress with opinions--either the bible is correct or it is not.

Provide texts that show me that I have miscalculated or mis understood and we will look at them.
That is how bible study is to be accomplished.

Scoobydoo

[Johnb]

Scooby
I don't know if I have ever seen someone other than perhaps lively so full of themselves and their illogical conclusions.  After saying it took years to come to your conclusions in revelations you then say it is simple and anyone reading the text can understand it.  Then you must have been in the slow learners class.

I understand foot washing and the lesson that was being taught IMO much better than you.  I also understand if one consistently applies CENI it would be a command and approved example that must be followed.  That has been shown form the text and from Tim. I think you need to apply the warnings about dangerous grounds you like to use to your own self righteous legalistic views. 

[zoonance]

Johnb, Ray Charles could see their blindspots.  Blindspots are of course blindspots.  We have to have a mirror or another person point them out for us.  They don't want their blindspots to be recognized because the rest of their understanding and comfort zone concerning their salvation would be questioned.  Being blindsided will be interpreted as the other guys fault. 

[zoonance]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iBV0DCbnBc&NR=1[/youtube]

interesting observations that I believe has to do with real restoration

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmfUNydXYOY&NR=1[/youtube]

[Livelysword]

Yep!  For all their chest beating and thus saith the Lord talk that is exactly what they are saying.  It is binding when they say it is and not when they say it is not.  Everone that disagrees with them are just wrong.

Lively did you come to the exact same conclusions on Rev. 20:2 as Scooby before you saw what he wrote? Be honest now.

So, the principle is that we don't necessarily have to follow New Testament examples if we can rationalize it.

Lively:  Show the NT CENIS which teaches foot washing is commanded of us.

 

Lively:  well put... again, foot washing is a Metonymy for doing good deeds to others.  Peter, understand what I am doing to thee... um, washing my feet Lord?  No Peter, but you shall know here after...  again the foot washing was done to teach a lesson... its not commanded to do.  What is commanded to do out of the lesson is if anyone will be Lord over another, then let them be as Jesus was... who came to serve others, and not to be served.  Now, go beat your head some more...

[zoonance]

At least we know you never win at Clue.