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Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2009, 08:22:17 PM »
Scooby
I don't know if I have ever seen someone other than perhaps lively so full of themselves and their illogical conclusions.  After saying it took years to come to your conclusions in revelations you then say it is simple and anyone reading the text can understand it.  Then you must have been in the slow learners class.

I understand foot washing and the lesson that was being taught IMO much better than you.  I also understand if one consistently applies CENI it would be a command and approved example that must be followed.  That has been shown form the text and from Tim. I think you need to apply the warnings about dangerous grounds you like to use to your own self righteous legalistic views. 
"He drew a circle that excluded me.  I drew a circle that included him.."  W. Carl Ketcherside

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2009, 08:22:17 PM »

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2009, 05:25:54 AM »
Johnb, Ray Charles could see their blindspots.  Blindspots are of course blindspots.  We have to have a mirror or another person point them out for us.  They don't want their blindspots to be recognized because the rest of their understanding and comfort zone concerning their salvation would be questioned.  Being blindsided will be interpreted as the other guys fault. 

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2009, 05:25:54 AM »

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2009, 07:47:47 AM »

interesting observations that I believe has to do with real restoration

« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 06:10:34 PM by zoonance »

Offline Livelysword

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2009, 09:17:56 AM »
Yep!  For all their chest beating and thus saith the Lord talk that is exactly what they are saying.  It is binding when they say it is and not when they say it is not.  Everone that disagrees with them are just wrong.

Lively did you come to the exact same conclusions on Rev. 20:2 as Scooby before you saw what he wrote? Be honest now.
So, the principle is that we don't necessarily have to follow New Testament examples if we can rationalize it.


Lively:  Show the NT CENIS which teaches foot washing is commanded of us.

 ::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh:: ::doh:: ::frustrated:: ::frustrated:: ::frustrated:: ::frustrated:: ::frustrated:: ::frustrated:: ::frustrated:: ::frustrated:: ::destroyingcomputer:: ::destroyingcomputer:: ::destroyingcomputer:: ::destroyingcomputer:: ::destroyingcomputer:: ::destroyingcomputer::


Lively:  well put... again, foot washing is a Metonymy for doing good deeds to others.  Peter, understand what I am doing to thee... um, washing my feet Lord?  No Peter, but you shall know here after...  again the foot washing was done to teach a lesson... its not commanded to do.  What is commanded to do out of the lesson is if anyone will be Lord over another, then let them be as Jesus was... who came to serve others, and not to be served.  Now, go beat your head some more...
When a man or woman is honestly mistaken and hears the truth,
they will either quit being mistaken, or they will cease to be honest.

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2009, 09:17:56 AM »

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2009, 09:21:19 AM »
At least we know you never win at Clue.

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2009, 09:21:19 AM »



Offline Scoobydoo

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2009, 11:23:46 AM »
Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

you stated--Scooby
I don't know if I have ever seen someone other than perhaps lively so full of themselves and their illogical conclusions.  After saying it took years to come to your conclusions in revelations you then say it is simple and anyone reading the text can understand it.  Then you must have been in the slow learners class.

My response--You still are not getting it--your response lacks even one text--that could or would imply that I am off track.  Nope, I all of us have is you assurance that such things are true.

THAT IS NOT BIBLE STUDY..THAT IS NOTHING MORE THAN HUMAN REASONING...and that allows for each to create and maintain their own doctrine{emphasis only}

 In this area yes, slow but sure--because of my conflicts with Pentecostalism and end time events--Checking and rechecking and finding first sources in the middle of the desert is not easy.

Again--the words themselves that describe our adversary--and exactly how he works upon mankind  is there.

you stated

I understand foot washing and the lesson that was being taught IMO much better than you.  I also understand if one consistently applies CENI it would be a command and approved example that must be followed.  

My response--Really--You have not given one iota of proof that you do. Again, all we have is the word of Johnb--..Because Johnb If you understood foot washing--Instead of attempting to use it as a club against CENI--you would not do so.

Now, in this medium--I have noticed over the years that when we have conversations such as this--sometimes when I say foot washings--that is not exactly the same text or passage that another is automatically referring to. So we end up with different mind pictures when talking about the same words.

So let me be specific--Joh 13:5  Then he poureth water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

Now if this is the text--then I can say with full assurance that you are clueless about foot washing.

you stated

That has been shown form the text and from Tim. I think you need to apply the warnings about dangerous grounds you like to use to your own self righteous legalistic views.  

Johnb--we both need to stay with just the texts..Granted it is far easier to simply say that these are my own self righteous legalistic views than deal with it honestly. I have been wrong before--but it takes scripture to make it so.

Johnb--that is very poor terminology--Take the foot washing--so we don't tanget off in another arena----I don't want to guess your understanding--you tell me you know more than I ABOUT IT--THEN PLEASE SHARE IT...

Thanks

Scoobydoo

Johnb--please consider the other gospel accounts relating to this event--thanks


« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 11:33:05 AM by Scoobydoo »

Offline Scoobydoo

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2009, 11:30:52 AM »
Zoonance--greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

you said to Johnb--Johnb, Ray Charles could see their blindspots.  Blindspots are of course blindspots.  We have to have a mirror or another person point them out for us.  They don't want their blindspots to be recognized because the rest of their understanding and comfort zone concerning their salvation would be questioned.  Being blindsided will be interpreted as the other guys fault. 

My observation--Yet has not Johnb done the same exact thing with me???Oh--you do not consider calling one who disagrees with you in this vein--like self righteous legalism?? rofl

Scoobydoo ::reading::

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2009, 07:43:34 PM »
Scooby
 I am staying with the text.  I am also staying with the basic rules of CENI.  If a specific command is given and it is reinforced  with an approved example then it must be followed.  This is the rule Thai is used for baptism singing only etc.  The argument is made that one can not add to or substitute something else for the specific command.  Christ gave the command and an approved example of foot washing in John 13.  It is also obvious that it was a pratice in the first century because in I Tim 5:10 one of the requirement for a widow indeed was that she washed the saints feet.  The argument can be and has been made by some that it is a mater of obedience because Peter was told if he did not let Jesus wash his feet he could have no part of Him.
I also understand and agree that it was really about service and humility.  I understand that wearing sandals and walking every where is no longer part of our culture.  However, if one trys to apply the same liberty of interp. to other commands and examples they are condemned.  Take the no instrument argument.  "It only said to sing"  A specific command so one can not do anything different.  The argument that a psalm was always accompanied by an instrument is cast off.  The fact that folks were commanded to play instruments in the OT is cast off, harps in heaven and trumpets at the end of time does not matter.  We are also told to make a joyful noise.  That can be done with instruments and other ways.  The argument can be made that giving praise to God by making a joyful noise is what is important not what is used or not used.  
You see you have to change the rules over and over to try an make this "pattern"  that must be followed.  I could do the same  "the real purpose of the command was..." with baptism or any other command.  However, this is only allowed when the patternist tells us it is.  

The command is to sing it is specific so nothing else will meet the requirement.

The command was to wash feet it was specific and unlike "only sing" it has clear examples therefore to be consistant one must wash feet.
"He drew a circle that excluded me.  I drew a circle that included him.."  W. Carl Ketcherside

blituri

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2009, 08:10:47 PM »
If you want to wash the feet of people just out of the shower that's just fine with me.

However, you don't know of anyone who cannot understand that "speak is the opposite of poetry or music" who would accept your view that washing feet was either commanded, exampled or inferred as an ACT OF WORSHIP.

You might be interested in knowing that the commanded verb used in teaching that which is written is SPEAK.  The result is singing AND making melody IN THE HEART: that is a place where our WORSHIP is in the PLACE rather than in the FLESH.


Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2009, 08:49:31 PM »
Blit
You really need to find some to say to be the slightest but relevant.  You have the same thing to say on every thread about every subject.  It is dumb ad boring. 
"He drew a circle that excluded me.  I drew a circle that included him.."  W. Carl Ketcherside

Offline HRoberson

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2009, 09:07:31 PM »
So, the principle is that we don't necessarily have to follow New Testament examples if we can rationalize it.
Of course! That's the entire point - to keep folks in line with what we have already decided is "right."
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Offline Scoobydoo

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2009, 09:52:56 PM »
Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Thank you for telling you that you are clueless here. I did give you a clue by telling you to read the other gospels on this. Bet a nickel you didn't--did you?

One should understand "feetwashing" before we go raring off trying to use it as a club to deny CENI..   

Joh 13:5  After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

Mar 14:13  And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
Mar 14:14  And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Mar 14:15  And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
Mar 14:16  And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Mar 14:17  And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18  And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
Mar 14:19  And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
Mar 14:20  And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.

This what I mean when I talk about covenants--we have the same problem here--we read but we don't think beyond what we have been told and what to accept.

You want to make this a CENI..

First--question--what in that world is a man doing carrying water? Have you not considered whom in the home normally washes feet--normally carries the water?  Consider that the house was empty--the master of the home was not there.  If He had been, this issue would not of come up. If He was wealthy a slave would of washed the feet of the men.

In no way is this the "normal procedure" out of this culture for feet washing and yet you continue to try and force CENI UPON IT. Why? So you can use it as  club to try and deny CENI???

Remember, you told me this..


Scooby
 I am staying with the text.  I am also staying with the basic rules of CENI.  If a specific command is given and it is reinforced  with an approved example then it must be followed.  This is the rule Thai is used for baptism singing only etc.

Now if you can make CENI out of of non normal procedure done once...have at it. Personally, I know better than to make that attempt. It is a fruitless effort.

In that Culture--foot washing was the norm---However in the worship of the early church did not happen when they were together bowing down and worshipping God.

The example in Tim is not a church ordinance--You are simply trying to appropriate it...from out of the culture and make it binding.

Now, the culture of the time covers both covenants...but it is not church-- And for those who can read--that foot washing took place at the Lord's last passover--which does not come after the cross. enough said.

you stated

 The argument is made that one can not add to or substitute something else for the specific command.  Christ gave the command and an approved example of foot washing in John 13.

MY observation-- One does not need to--Christ did indeed give the command..but not to the whole wide world--nope just to those men present with him at the Passover.  An event as such that disappeared at the cross with the death of Jesus.

you stated

It is also obvious that it was a pratice in the first century because in I Tim 5:10 one of the requirement for a widow indeed was that she washed the saints feet.  The argument can be and has been made by some that it is a mater of obedience because Peter was told if he did not let Jesus wash his feet he could have no part of Him.

My response--Oh it was indeed--but wasn't it a tad bit hard to do to the saints while they were using their feet??

"others" are as clueless as you are about this..

Now, let me admit something--for thirty years in the church...so was I...But I started listening and I started looking at exactly what I was or was not reading.

you said

I also understand and agree that it was really about service and humility.  I understand that wearing sandals and walking every where is no longer part of our culture.  However, if one trys to apply the same liberty of interp. to other commands and examples they are condemned.

My response--It is with foot washing because folks are not using it not even as a "norm" from the culture nor considering that it was a Jew teaching Jews and Jesus used foot washing to make a point--not to make footwashing CENI.

This whole section is sectioned off at both ends with love--not footwashing.

you stated

Take the no instrument argument.  "It only said to sing"  A specific command so one can not do anything different.  The argument that a psalm was always accompanied by an instrument is cast off.

My observation --Let's take this-- If you guys would stay with this--it would be all over..Now, do you think we are _____ using this argument? Or, are you that ____________?  This is not hard to understand--if one wants to.
Now, I am serious--YOu know that I know better--and I know that you are not __________..yet you continue to parrot an argument that does not work--never has worked.

It is very much like the foot washing...you are attempting the same thing here...

[1] Because the command is sing---and it is not sing with an instrument--the folks who have gone before you knew this and you don't?

In the culture--foot washing was acceptable and necessary--In the culture psalms could be accompanied with an instrument
BUT NEVER EVER IN THE CHURCH..

Ok--are you trying to convince to yourself? 

And if for no other reason unlike the Old Covenant--where we can find authorization for instruments--such is sadly lacking in the New Covenant.  As Priests of the most high God offering up sacrifices--IM as a sacrifice is not approved by God thus making it an act of unrighteousness. Not a good deal.

you stated

The fact that folks were commanded to play instruments in the OT is cast off, harps in heaven and trumpets at the end of time does not matter.

My response--these are tired old and very ineffective defenses of IM. But I do understand that there is nothing better around.

When one as a Priest seeks to offer those sacrifices that are given by God for man to offer--those things are considered and you know they are.

You are "NOT IN HEAVEN" You "DO NOT LIVE UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW AND THE PROPHETS"  You do however LIVE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT-- AND under that new covenant--there is no authorization for the insturment in man's worship.

you said

We are also told to make a joyful noise.  That can be done with instruments and other ways.  The argument can be made that giving praise to God by making a joyful noise is what is important not what is used or not used. 
You see you have to change the rules over and over to try an make this "pattern"  that must be followed.  I could do the same  "the real purpose of the command was..." with baptism or any other command.  However, this is only allowed when the patternist tells us it is. 

My response--CENI comes to man from God..folks seem to tend to want to forget that. The command as I remember it is the "you" is literally everyone "you" not just a few "you's"

Remember, our common adversary--He knows better but also strongly believes that you do not--ergo this conversation with statements that are known to be faulty.

He is NOT interested in winning discussions only in winning souls..

Scoobydoo

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2009, 06:13:36 AM »
Scooby
With all your rambling you are still inconsistent.  You ask.
Now if you can make CENI out of of non normal procedure done once...have at it. Personally, I know better than to make that attempt. It is a fruitless effort.

The saints met often and broke bread even daily.  However, there is only one place this common pratice is mentioned as being on "the first day of the week."  However, the CoC has made it a command to take the LS (even though it is not clear from the text that it was the LS) and made it a command or or dinace for the church to take the LS every first day and only on the first day.

ll you babbling about bringing water etc has nothing to do with the act.  Yes this was an act normally preformed by a slave.  Yet the Son of God preformed it to show service and humility and told His followers to do the same.  The specific command was to wash feet.  No different than the specific command to sing.    You my brother (yes I do consider you my brother )are the clueless one about binding your own conclusions on others.
"He drew a circle that excluded me.  I drew a circle that included him.."  W. Carl Ketcherside

Offline Scoobydoo

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2009, 12:53:15 PM »
Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas

ll you babbling about bringing water etc has nothing to do with the act.  Yes this was an act normally preformed by a slave.  Yet the Son of God preformed it to show service and humility and told His followers to do the same.  The specific command was to wash feet.  No different than the specific command to sing.    You my brother (yes I do consider you my brother )are the clueless one about binding your own conclusions on others.

My response--I see you were clueless. That is what I thought or you would not keep trying to bring it in.

No one denies it was an act---but it was not normal in the cultural proceeding of how they did things.

And, it was the last Passover meal--And that went away at the cross.

Johnb, I am not having this conversation with you because I consider you my brother--You belong to a group that does not teach New Covenant teaching--using Im is an act of unrighteousness--you keep trying to bring in other issues to show validity for your position.

Here is not what you are getting...The churches of Christ are not the standard unit of measurement--God IS!! and, His Word.

Those who are in Christ--came in the right way--and stay there the same way...by faith and by trusting God.  Those who use and practise or support the use of IM are taking the same position the Jews in the days of Jesus took--and it got them nothing but grief.

CENI is the WORD OF GOD....That is where CENI IS FOUND!!  your standard response to those who point out "problems" with your position is not scriptural--but self rightous legalists...that is a "cop out" and keeps you from dealing with the texts.

YOU KNOW--you cannot provide one single text out of the New Covenant in our world authorizing the use of IM.  So you attack those things that show otherwise never grasping the point--it is not authorized--you are not interested in the fact that it is not authorized. You seek support for your man made position and there are many who will follow after.

Today is the Lord's day--I am taking my life to the gathering of the saints and we are going to offer up sacrifices well pleasing unto our Lord--that is those we can prove He has given us to offer and has approved of.  IM is not a part of that process.

I cannot help it that you are no longer a member of the body of Christ--your choices are yours to make. Don't believe me???  Neither did the Jews in Malachi when God told them they were not making it.. ::watchingclock::

Scoobydoo ::reading::


Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2009, 01:16:31 PM »
Scooby
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

1.  We can agree on the bible as the standard not the CoC.  The problem is you want to make you understanding of the bible the measure for all.

2. When you talk about looking at the text like most in the CoC you do not want to apply the same rules of interp. to all passages.  Example the LS that I referred to.

3.  I am glad it is God who will determine the rightness or wrongness of my position and not you.

4.  There is no specific commands for how we do church.  There is not even a reference to a "worship service" only an assembly of the saints.  Our lives are to be the reasonable service Rom 12:1.  It is clear to me and most of the Christian world that God is concerned  about our hearts and faith not how well we keep rules from a human theology.

5.  Further discussion would be fruitless especially since you have broken the forum rule to question ones salvation as opposed to their theology or understanding of scripture.  That is why it is called grace centered.

" He drew a circle that excluded me: I drew a circle that included him."  W Carl Kecherside
"He drew a circle that excluded me.  I drew a circle that included him.."  W. Carl Ketcherside