Real Restoration

[Scoobydoo]

Johnb Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

When we look at the cross--often folks see "forgiveness of sins" but do not see that it was obedience by the Son to the Father that also brought the cross.  

Joh 14:30  Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Joh 14:31  But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So my last response is this---Obedience is required and that obedience is to the word of God.
You should understand my concern--judgment has already been made--One's fate can easily be determined not by another person but by the texts-and those texts say the same exact same thing to all of us.

One does not choose to follow the texts--one does not go--that applies to me, to you and to the whole world.

Good luck, JohnB



Scoobydoo

[OkiMar]

It is not that we can't figure out that foot washing is not commanded today.  It is just that if one follows the rules on CENI consistently it would be.  Big difference.

John,
How so? If one uses CENI, why MUST he believe foot washing is commanded today?
The use of CENI does not mean that we ignore context, audience, scope, and purpose.

[Livelysword]

Scooby
 I am staying with the text.  I am also staying with the basic rules of CENI.  If a specific command is given and it is reinforced  with an approved example then it must be followed.  This is the rule Thai is used for baptism singing only etc.  The argument is made that one can not add to or substitute something else for the specific command.  Christ gave the command and an approved example of foot washing in John 13.  It is also obvious that it was a pratice in the first century because in I Tim 5:10 one of the requirement for a widow indeed was that she washed the saints feet.  The argument can be and has been made by some that it is a mater of obedience because Peter was told if he did not let Jesus wash his feet he could have no part of Him.
I also understand and agree that it was really about service and humility.  I understand that wearing sandals and walking every where is no longer part of our culture.  However, if one trys to apply the same liberty of interp. to other commands and examples they are condemned.  Take the no instrument argument.  "It only said to sing"  A specific command so one can not do anything different.  The argument that a psalm was always accompanied by an instrument is cast off.  The fact that folks were commanded to play instruments in the OT is cast off, harps in heaven and trumpets at the end of time does not matter.  We are also told to make a joyful noise.  That can be done with instruments and other ways.  The argument can be made that giving praise to God by making a joyful noise is what is important not what is used or not used.  
You see you have to change the rules over and over to try an make this "pattern"  that must be followed.  I could do the same  "the real purpose of the command was..." with baptism or any other command.  However, this is only allowed when the patternist tells us it is.  

The command is to sing it is specific so nothing else will meet the requirement.

The command was to wash feet it was specific and unlike "only sing" it has clear examples therefore to be consistant one must wash feet.

Lively:  There is no specific command there to wash feet...  

No C for command...

There is no specific example there to follow, that is that one must wash feet.

No E for Example...

There is an Necessary Inference there to follow, what is inferred is that we are to serve one another...

Yes for NI for Necessary Inference...

 
So lets be honest, you really do not want to follow CENIS as the scripture in John actually does teach.


Joh 13:7  Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.


If Peter does know exactly what Jesus is doing, then Jesus lied when he stated he did not know now what he was doing...  Peter stated what he believed Jesus was doing... washing feet.  Obviously, this is not the lesson Jesus is teaching or Peter would have known what Jesus was doing.  Therefore it is not about feet washing at all... feet washing is simply  used to make a point of a lesson being taught which is not specifically about feet washing...  Either Peter knows what he is doing now, or he does not, scripture and Jesus states he does not know now, that he shall know hereafter... that is, at a later time.


Joh 13:12  So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?


Did they know what he had done unto them?  Well, if it was washing their feet which is what he literally did, then yes they knew what he did, but if it is not about washing feet, then no they do not know now what he has done, but will know hereafter... that is sometime in the future.



Luk 22:24  And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25  And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26  But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27  For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.


The reason for the foot washing...  strife between the brethren, which shall be accounted greatest in the kingdom...  This is to what Jesus is teaching the lesson...  He uses foot washing to make his point...  He their master has girded a towel around his waste and is washing their feet... serving them...  Yet he is their master...  the point being, Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve others...  His serving others is an example for his disciples to serve one another... the point he is trying to make... while he is their master, he is here serving them... so they ought also to serve one another.  He that will be greatest in the kingdom let him be servant of all...  Not to Lord over other disciples and have them serve him.  They shall not be benefactors in this life, as the Gentiles are benefactors... as one exercises Lordship over another...  Therefore the example of Jesus washing feet is about teaching his disciples to serve one another and not worry about who shall be the greatest as if they will at this time be benefactors of service from others...  He that will be great in the kingdom, let him be your servant... even as I Jesus am serving you by washing your feet...  Now the question may become, well is the only way I can serve others by washing their feet?  Of coarse not, that is rediculous, just like having to explain this for the Um-teenth time because we refuse to listen to what is actually being taught by Jesus, and those who would be of a mind to show others what the lesson is...  the option left you is to believe footwashing is a literal commandment, and ignore what Jesus stated, what I do now, thou knowest not.  Feel free to take the following out of its context and make the literal foot washing a commandment and example to follow, and ignore the lesson Jesus was teaching using foot washing...  I am always available to you to come and wash my feet for you to keep that foot washing commandment you insist these verses are teaching...


Joh 13:13  Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14  If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.



Somebody who posted that lesson earlier want to repost that again about footwashing and what the point of it was... I think someone needs to see and read it more more time...  I went back and found it, it was in another thread...

Here is an example of a command not followed by the CENI CoC folks today.

In John 13 the Son of God put on the apron of a slave and washed the feet of the apostles.  When Peter objected Jesus told him that if he did not allow him to wash his feet he would have no part of him.  After He finished He commanded the apostles to do the same for others.

Here we have a clear command to wash feet and an approved example by the Son of God.  According to the CENI theology this should be a command to be followed.  However, they say He was teaching a lesson in humility and that could be done in other ways.

Lets examine that idea.  It is clearly a command followed by an approved example.  In addition the so called law of exclusion applies.  He did not say you can show humility some other way He said wash feet.   If the law of exclusion excludes playing with singing and excludes any thing from the LS but bread and fruit of the vine then this command excludes everything but foot washing.  If not why not?  Break out the water and towels! 

Here is a good article by Wayne Jackson on the subject of foot washing:

Did Jesus Institute Ceremonial “Feet-Washing”?

It should be observed first of all that just because Christ gave a command to someone, at some time, during his ministry, does not mean that that same command was required of all people for all time. One must look at the nature of the command, to whom it was given, the purpose thereof (if stated), and whether or not it initially applied in a limited way, or whether it was for every person throughout history.

For example, the Lord once commanded a man, “take up your bed and walk” (Jn. 5:8). Surely it is not difficult to understand that this particular injunction was not universal in its application. To another he said, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (Jn. 9:7). That requirement applied to no one but the man to whom it was given. To the apostles Jesus said, “Wait in the city [of Jerusalem], until you are clothed with power from on high” (Lk. 24:49). That command was for the apostles exclusively. Keep this principle in mind as we explore John 13:3ff.

In order to appreciate the situation that occurred during the Passover supper, one has to have some “background” knowledge in a couple of areas – pertaining to the customary act of feet-washing itself, and that of the events that led up to the “supper” incident.

The Act of Feet-Washing Generally
Most Bible students are aware of the fact that folks in ancient days did not wear the type of footwear that most of us in America do today. They wore sandals. Furthermore, most of the nearby travel was by walking. The combination of these factors meant that the citizens’ feet became very dirty during their journeys. It was a common act of hospitality, therefore, when a visitor came calling, to provide him with water for the washing of his feet (cf. 1 Tim. 5:10). One may recall that Christ once reproved Simon the Pharisee for not having furnished him with water for his feet, as the Savior visited in his home (Lk. 7:44).

Further, if a man was wealthy enough to have servants, he might well dispatch one of them to wash his guest’s feet. This is illustrated by a case from the time of king David. When the ruler sent messengers to a lady named Abigail, she gladly received them, and said, “Behold, let your handmaid act as a servant in washing the feet of the servants of my lord” (1 Sam. 25:41). Generally, it was the servant’s role to wash the master’s feet. Keep this thought in mind.

The Tense Supper Scene
As devoted as the Savior’s disciples were, they still had “rough edges” that needed to be eliminated, and not the least of these problems was the spirit of egotistical competition that prevailed among them. One recalls that James and John had requested of Christ that they might have places of preeminence when the Lord entered into his glory (Mk. 10:37). In fact, that very evening there was a dispute among the twelve as to who would be considered the “greatest” (Lk. 22:24). They desperately needed to learn that “greatness” is achieved in serving others; it is not a tribute merely to be bestowed arbitrarily.

It was in this setting that the Master laid aside his outer garments and girded himself with a towel, subsequently commencing to wash his disciples’ feet.

Contextual Clues
In considering the entire context of this episode, it is important that the Bible student look carefully at all of the details, so that he may draw such conclusions as the evidence warrants.

1. Notice first that Jesus washed the feet of all the disciples. If one is going to bind precisely this “example” as a church ordinance, as a few small religious groups have done, then the feet of everyone present will have to be cleansed. Further, everyone who washes the feet of others will need to have his own feet bathed by everyone else. If there should be a group of several hundred people, this “ceremony” would consume the better part of a day – or even longer.
That Jesus was not washing the disciples’ feet as a literal act to be required henceforth is very clear from what happened in the meantime, and how the Lord responded. When Christ came to where Peter was, the apostle asked, “Do you intend to wash my feet?” The Savior replied, “What I am about to do you don’t understand right now, but you will presently.” Get this point, please. Peter knew that Jesus was about to wash his feet (in a literal sense), but Christ says, “You do not know what I’m doing.” Obviously, it was not the act of washing feet per se that was the point; rather, it was the lesson to be conveyed. And so, in a mild rebuke, Jesus told his apostle (if we may paraphrase), “If you do not learn the lesson I am attempting to demonstrate, you will have ‘no part’ in my ministry” (v. 8).

2. Then, after he had finished this symbolic act, the Lord asked, “Do you know what I have done unto you?” (v. 12). Certainly they knew what he had done physically. But had they perceived the real significance of the act? They had not. But he explained the matter. “You call me Teacher, and, Lord. You are correct; that is my relationship to you. If I then, the Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash one another’s feet.” In what sense? Literally? No, the lesson is this. If I, your Lord, have humbled myself, assuming the role of a servant, you ought to do the same (cf. v. 16). The pathway to “greatness” is not by self-assertion; it is through service! The Son of God was demonstrating an attitude, not requiring a literal act.

The error, then, on the part of some religious people, is in not discerning the difference between what the Lord was doing literally, and the symbolic significance of the act.

The Testimony of History
It is important to note that the early church did not perceive this incident as a “binding example” of literal feet-washing for a required practice throughout Christian history. One prominent historian has observed:

“There is no indication in the New Testament, or in the Christian literature of the first three centuries, that our Lord was understood to have instituted an ordinance [feet-washing] by the acts and words under consideration [in John 13]. Feet-washing was a common and needed act of hospitality in Palestine at the time, and the teaching that Christ intended to convey was the manifestation of the spirit of brotherly love in acts of humble service. . . The earliest reference to the ceremonial use of feet-washing is in the canon of the synod of Elvira (A.D. 306) where it is condemned” (A.H. Newman, A Manual of Church History, Philadelphia: The American Baptist Publication Society/Judson Press, 1933, Vol. I, p. 140).

[Johnb]

Okimar
I am simple following the rules of CENI as presented to me by TB Warren many years ago.

Although you may be like scooby and lively blinded by desire to be correct and not see the inconsistency I will simply point out that there is more evidence from scripture for foot washing to be a pratice than taking the LS every sunday and only on Sunday. Also to only sing.  It takes a lot of not simple or clear human reasoning to bind weekly observance of the LS and even more for non IM. 

Lively what part of the English language do you not understand?

You stated that foot washing was not a command then posted Jesus commanding it in John 13:14
You also stated it was not an example then quoted John 13:15 where Jesus said I give you this example.

You can deny it on culture etc but not that it is not a specific command and example.

Is Jesus teaching servanthood and humility?  Yes!  However if one follows the principles of CENI it was a specific command.  They were told to show  servanthood by washing feet.

This is no different than one who will say sprinkling . or pooring can be baptism as well as immersion because the real lesson was about remembering the death of the old man and becoming a new man in Christ.  It is not the act but the lesson behind the act.  This would be the same type of reasoning that you use to cast off foot washing. 

[zoonance]

interesting observations that I believe has to do with real restoration

bumped for two reasons. 1) because I learned how to post a video!  2) I believe these do address real restoration - the topic

[OkiMar]

Okimar
I am simple following the rules of CENI as presented to me by TB Warren many years ago.

Although you may be like scooby and lively blinded by desire to be correct and not see the inconsistency I will simply point out that there is more evidence from scripture for foot washing to be a pratice than taking the LS every sunday and only on Sunday. Also to only sing.  It takes a lot of not simple or clear human reasoning to bind weekly observance of the LS and even more for non IM. 

Lively what part of the English language do you not understand?

You stated that foot washing was not a command then posted Jesus commanding it in John 13:14
You also stated it was not an example then quoted John 13:15 where Jesus said I give you this example.

You can deny it on culture etc but not that it is not a specific command and example.

Is Jesus teaching servanthood and humility?  Yes!  However if one follows the principles of CENI it was a specific command.  They were told to show  servanthood by washing feet.

This is no different than one who will say sprinkling . or pooring can be baptism as well as immersion because the real lesson was about remembering the death of the old man and becoming a new man in Christ.  It is not the act but the lesson behind the act.  This would be the same type of reasoning that you use to cast off foot washing. 

Cone on, John. This is weak. If you learned at the feet of Warren, then surely you know that he considered legislated foot-washing as binding where God has not bound. I'm sure you've read his book, "When is an Example Binding," where he discusses the issue.
The simple fact is that CENI advocates do not consider foot washing to be perpetual command for the NT church because foot washing is essentially a metaphor for service and humility. Foot washing is not the lesson to be learned from the passage. That's why CENI advocates do not incorporate the practice.

[Johnb]

Okimar
Yes Brother Warren rejected foot washing as binding ( I also reject it for some of the same reasons)  However, if you apply the same logic he and others reject it on one could also reject immersion as the only form of baptism, LS every Sunday and only on Sunday and Singing only.  What I am getting at is the same concept that our restoration founders had.  That being to understand that these conclusion are simply that conclusions based on human reasoning and should not be bound as a test of fellowship on those whose understanding and comprehension is less.   
IMO and most of the Christian world the argument for absolute requirement for the LS every Sunday and only on Sunday is weak and based almost entirely on conjecture and tradition.   The same can be said for non IM.

Now all that being said if one truly believes that IM is wrong and that they must take the LS every Sunday then for them it would be sin to violate their conscience.  I also believe it is sin to bind those views on others and condemn them to a position less than a brother or sister.

[zoonance]

It has to be purposefully that this discussion isn't about foot washing at all but about the inconsistent application of CENI based on somebody's teaching.

[Johnb]

Yep!

[Snargles]

If foot washing can be explained away by culture then so could immersion. Ritualistic cleansing was a Jewish thing; that is why there were so many baptismal pools scatterred around Jerusalem. The bread and FOTV of the LS are also cultural. They relate back to the Passover. Having women keep their mouths shut is cultural. Jewish women were supposed to be submissive; my wife and I are not and never have been Jewish.

The only CENI I agree with is Paul's instruction to Timothy. I gave up water for Riesling.    

[OkiMar]

But foot washing is not being explained away by culture.

[Livelysword]

Okimar
I am simple following the rules of CENI as presented to me by TB Warren many years ago.

Although you may be like scooby and lively blinded by desire to be correct and not see the inconsistency I will simply point out that there is more evidence from scripture for foot washing to be a pratice than taking the LS every sunday and only on Sunday. Also to only sing.  It takes a lot of not simple or clear human reasoning to bind weekly observance of the LS and even more for non IM. 

Lively what part of the English language do you not understand?

You stated that foot washing was not a command then posted Jesus commanding it in John 13:14
You also stated it was not an example then quoted John 13:15 where Jesus said I give you this example.

You can deny it on culture etc but not that it is not a specific command and example.

Is Jesus teaching servanthood and humility?  Yes!  However if one follows the principles of CENI it was a specific command.  They were told to show  servanthood by washing feet.

This is no different than one who will say sprinkling . or pooring can be baptism as well as immersion because the real lesson was about remembering the death of the old man and becoming a new man in Christ.  It is not the act but the lesson behind the act.  This would be the same type of reasoning that you use to cast off foot washing. 

Lively:  LOLOLOL... ok John let me see if I can give you another illustration, to see if you can grasp what it is Jesus is doing...  there was a movie called the karate kid... and Mr Meoggie if I got that name correct, had Daniel wax cars...  right hand in circles clockwise, left hand in circles counter clockwise...  was the lesson really about waxing cars, or about Karate, and how to block punches?  Did Daniel know what Meoggie was teaching him when he had him wax the car, or would he come to understand that Lesson thereafter?  If you have not seen the movie and do not know what I am speaking of... by all means get the first one... I believe it is the karate kid 1...  it was a series, and Meoggie taught Daniel many lessons using the same type teaching...


The example to do as Jesus has done, to the apostles, is not literal foot washing but to serve one another...  he is using foot washing as an example of serving one another...


Did you read these verses at all that I posted?



Luk 22:24  And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25  And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26  But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27  For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

[Livelysword]

If foot washing can be explained away by culture then so could immersion. Ritualistic cleansing was a Jewish thing; that is why there were so many baptismal pools scatterred around Jerusalem. The bread and FOTV of the LS are also cultural. They relate back to the Passover. Having women keep their mouths shut is cultural. Jewish women were supposed to be submissive; my wife and I are not and never have been Jewish.

The only CENI I agree with is Paul's instruction to Timothy. I gave up water for Riesling.    

Lively:  It is not about explaining away something by culture.  While foot washing was done to show kindness, it is not the only way to show kindness... it is not the only way to serve one another...  one is served best when one has his needs met.


Luk 7:44  And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45  Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46  My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.



So, if a man needed help, such as the following...


Luk 10:30  And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31  And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32  And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33  But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34  And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35  And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36  Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37  And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


He took care that which was needful to him...  I mean, he could have just washed his feet and sent him on his way right?   If we are  not getting the lesson that Jesus is using foot washing as an example to serve one another, then we have not gotten the message Jesus was teaching...  Foot washing can be needful, especially during that culture, but it is not about foot washing in particular, but about serving one another... and foot washing was a way many back then showed kindness to one another and served them during their journeys...  Here is another example of doing that which is needful to serve one another...


Jas 2:15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?


What would these folks need to best serve them?  Foot washing?  Clothes and food?  I have to tell you, I am truly amazed this lesson is not being understood....  it baffles my mind...

[Johnb]

Lively
The point of Jesus washing feet was servanthood and humility not necessarily kindness.  That is why He put on the apron of a slave to do it.  That is why Peter objected because his leader, and savior was preforming the act of a slave.  I understand all that.  That is not even the point of the discussion.  The point is the inconsistent position you take on CENI.

If the example of sing only being a specific binding command because He only said to sing not play.  The it logically follows that the specific command of Jesus to show servanthood by washing feet should be binding because He only said to wash feet.  He did not authorize any other method.  He said to wash feet.

If Acts 20:7 is a binding example to take the LS on the first day of the week and only on the first day then it logically follows that we should wash feet. 

If we must baptize by immersion and only by immersion because that is the binding example then we must wash feet because that is the only example Jesus authorized in John 13.

All I am asking is for folks to be consistant in their binding of commands and examples.     

[zoonance]

johnb, karate kid has more umph than reason!