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Author Topic: Real Restoration  (Read 8323 times)

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Offline Snargles

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2009, 04:01:39 PM »
But foot washing is not being explained away by culture.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "explained away". We use the foot washing example to show how we are to have the spirit of a servant and say that in Jesus' culture servanthood could be demonstrated by washing feet but in our culture we have other ways to serve others. However, if we can substitute one action for another here, why can't we make other substitutions? Why not have roast beef and pomegranite juice for the LS? No one would miss the symbolism of eating flesh. If we can change one outward action why can't we change others? To be selective in applying CENI destroys its usefulness as a doctrine.

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2009, 04:01:39 PM »

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2009, 04:27:28 PM »
Quote Zoo
johnb, karate kid has more umph than reason!

Wax on Wax off.  Now I see Jesus was preparing the disciples to fight with their feet.  rofl

Problem is you have to have at least 1 foot left to stand on to win the fight.
"He drew a circle that excluded me.  I drew a circle that included him.."  W. Carl Ketcherside

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2009, 04:27:28 PM »

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #62 on: November 09, 2009, 06:16:21 PM »
Maybe it was about clipping each other's nails or examining for hangnails - a missionary's flat tire in those days.  The text doesn't say. 

Offline Livelysword

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2009, 02:53:22 PM »
Lively
The point of Jesus washing feet was servanthood and humility not necessarily kindness.  That is why He put on the apron of a slave to do it.  That is why Peter objected because his leader, and savior was preforming the act of a slave.  I understand all that.  That is not even the point of the discussion.  The point is the inconsistent position you take on CENI.

If the example of sing only being a specific binding command because He only said to sing not play.  The it logically follows that the specific command of Jesus to show servanthood by washing feet should be binding because He only said to wash feet.  He did not authorize any other method.  He said to wash feet.

If Acts 20:7 is a binding example to take the LS on the first day of the week and only on the first day then it logically follows that we should wash feet. 

If we must baptize by immersion and only by immersion because that is the binding example then we must wash feet because that is the only example Jesus authorized in John 13.

All I am asking is for folks to be consistant in their binding of commands and examples.     


Lively:  I agree it definitely was done out of teaching a lesson of humility... He was humbling himself to wash their feet to show an example that they need to humble themselves and serve one another...  but if one's motive to wash a saints feet is not out of love and just servitude, I think he has missed the mark...


Gal 5:13  For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.


I believe love of another is the best reason to wash an others feet... even like the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears...  Is not the reason why Jesus himself came to earth to serve men, because of the great love he had for us?
When a man or woman is honestly mistaken and hears the truth,
they will either quit being mistaken, or they will cease to be honest.

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2009, 02:53:22 PM »

Offline Livelysword

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2009, 03:01:14 PM »
Maybe it was about clipping each other's nails or examining for hangnails - a missionary's flat tire in those days.  The text doesn't say. 


Lively:  Maybe it was about showing that because one teaches by an example, the example he uses to teach a principle, does not necessitate the example he uses to teach that principle is the example he has in mind for the student to learn.
When a man or woman is honestly mistaken and hears the truth,
they will either quit being mistaken, or they will cease to be honest.

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2009, 03:01:14 PM »



Offline Snargles

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2009, 03:42:09 PM »
Maybe it was about clipping each other's nails or examining for hangnails - a missionary's flat tire in those days.  The text doesn't say. 


Lively:  Maybe it was about showing that because one teaches by an example, the example he uses to teach a principle, does not necessitate the example he uses to teach that principle is the example he has in mind for the student to learn.

So an example is not always an example.

That puts CENI in the realm of opinion, but whose opinion?

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2009, 04:03:01 PM »
Lively
The point of Jesus washing feet was servanthood and humility not necessarily kindness.  That is why He put on the apron of a slave to do it.  That is why Peter objected because his leader, and savior was preforming the act of a slave.  I understand all that.  That is not even the point of the discussion.  The point is the inconsistent position you take on CENI.

If the example of sing only being a specific binding command because He only said to sing not play.  The it logically follows that the specific command of Jesus to show servanthood by washing feet should be binding because He only said to wash feet.  He did not authorize any other method.  He said to wash feet.

If Acts 20:7 is a binding example to take the LS on the first day of the week and only on the first day then it logically follows that we should wash feet. 

If we must baptize by immersion and only by immersion because that is the binding example then we must wash feet because that is the only example Jesus authorized in John 13.

All I am asking is for folks to be consistant in their binding of commands and examples.     


Lively:  I agree it definitely was done out of teaching a lesson of humility... He was humbling himself to wash their feet to show an example that they need to humble themselves and serve one another...  but if one's motive to wash a saints feet is not out of love and just servitude, I think he has missed the mark...


Gal 5:13  For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.


I believe love of another is the best reason to wash an others feet... even like the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears...  Is not the reason why Jesus himself came to earth to serve men, because of the great love he had for us?




So the greatest proof of the love of Jesus would be to wash our feet.

Offline OkiMar

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2009, 08:48:31 PM »
But foot washing is not being explained away by culture.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "explained away". We use the foot washing example to show how we are to have the spirit of a servant and say that in Jesus' culture servanthood could be demonstrated by washing feet but in our culture we have other ways to serve others. However, if we can substitute one action for another here, why can't we make other substitutions? Why not have roast beef and pomegranite juice for the LS? No one would miss the symbolism of eating flesh. If we can change one outward action why can't we change others? To be selective in applying CENI destroys its usefulness as a doctrine.
We cannot substitute items in the Lord's Supper because it is not authorized. Partaking of the Lord's Supper is an act of worship. Foot washing is not an act of worship. Therein lies the difference.

Offline Snargles

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2009, 09:22:28 PM »
Quote
We cannot substitute items in the Lord's Supper because it is not authorized. Partaking of the Lord's Supper is an act of worship. Foot washing is not an act of worship. Therein lies the difference.

So then, does CENI only apply to "acts of worship"?

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2009, 05:19:51 AM »
If the LS is to remind us of the death of Christ and foot washing is to remind us of servanthood and humility why would one be and "act of worship" and the other not?  Remember Peter was told if he did not allow it he would have no part...

Where in the NT is either called an "act of worship"?  For that matter where is there a "worship service" in the NT? 
I thought our bodies IE life was the living sacrifice and reasonable worship.  Rom 12:1

Since there is no "worship service" nor "acts of worship" in the NT each group has decided what their "worship service" will look like and what "acts" will be included.  Clearly human reasoning clearly opinion.
"He drew a circle that excluded me.  I drew a circle that included him.."  W. Carl Ketcherside

Offline OkiMar

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2009, 01:25:41 PM »
If the LS is to remind us of the death of Christ and foot washing is to remind us of servanthood and humility why would one be and "act of worship" and the other not?  Remember Peter was told if he did not allow it he would have no part...

Where in the NT is either called an "act of worship"?  For that matter where is there a "worship service" in the NT? 
I thought our bodies IE life was the living sacrifice and reasonable worship.  Rom 12:1

Since there is no "worship service" nor "acts of worship" in the NT each group has decided what their "worship service" will look like and what "acts" will be included.  Clearly human reasoning clearly opinion.
Weak, John. There's nothing wrong with stating that something is an act of worship.
Partaking of the Lord's Supper...partaking is a verb, it is action, an act. So, yes, the Lord's Supper is an act of worship.

You don't believe that foot washing is worship anymore than I do, so you are fighting against a straw man. The passage in question isn't even about foot washing as has already been clearly demonstrated. It is about service and humility. Passages about the Lord's Supper ARE about the Lord's Supper, and of course, you agree with this also.

Offline DCR

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2009, 03:34:43 PM »
Is it not Biblical to say that acts of service are acts of worship?



"As you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me."

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."


It seems that acts of love and service cannot be separated from worship and devotion to God.  In that sense, washing the feet of others is an "act of worship" as are other acts of love and service.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2009, 05:32:34 PM »
Okimar
Calling it weak does not change the facts.  Neither are called and "act of worship"  That is a human label.  From the text I see no reason why both can not be and in many churches are labeled "acts of worship".   Both are symbols of something other than the actual acts.  No straw man just consistant application of CENI.

IMO we start mudding the water when we make something other than our life (Rom 12:1) an act of worship or reasonable service and drawing lines of fellowship based on our human logic.
"He drew a circle that excluded me.  I drew a circle that included him.."  W. Carl Ketcherside

larry2

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2009, 11:28:56 PM »

I hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts to the washing of feet.

Here we are talking of beautiful feet, and must think of the feet as pertaining to walking.  Romans 10:15. How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
 
Hopefully I can point your thinking to our feet being cleaned associated with our walk in Christ.

John 13:5  After that He (Jesus) poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

John 13:8  Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
 
John 13:9  Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

John 13:10  Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all (Talking of Judas). They were all saved except Judas, but their walk needed cleaned.

What is being talked about here? We read in Ephesians 5:26  That He (Jesus) might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.

Ephesians 6:15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; (Again the word) Even our armor is dependent upon the word. Our walk or feet shod with the word makes our walk beautiful.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2009, 10:03:49 AM »
Lary good thoughts.
The discussion here is really not about foot washing but the inconsistant theology of CENI and binding conclusions on others.
"He drew a circle that excluded me.  I drew a circle that included him.."  W. Carl Ketcherside