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Author Topic: Real Restoration  (Read 9295 times)

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Offline Scoobydoo

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #35 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 12:23:46 »
Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

you stated--Scooby
I don't know if I have ever seen someone other than perhaps lively so full of themselves and their illogical conclusions.  After saying it took years to come to your conclusions in revelations you then say it is simple and anyone reading the text can understand it.  Then you must have been in the slow learners class.

My response--You still are not getting it--your response lacks even one text--that could or would imply that I am off track.  Nope, I all of us have is you assurance that such things are true.

THAT IS NOT BIBLE STUDY..THAT IS NOTHING MORE THAN HUMAN REASONING...and that allows for each to create and maintain their own doctrine{emphasis only}

 In this area yes, slow but sure--because of my conflicts with Pentecostalism and end time events--Checking and rechecking and finding first sources in the middle of the desert is not easy.

Again--the words themselves that describe our adversary--and exactly how he works upon mankind  is there.

you stated

I understand foot washing and the lesson that was being taught IMO much better than you.  I also understand if one consistently applies CENI it would be a command and approved example that must be followed.  

My response--Really--You have not given one iota of proof that you do. Again, all we have is the word of Johnb--..Because Johnb If you understood foot washing--Instead of attempting to use it as a club against CENI--you would not do so.

Now, in this medium--I have noticed over the years that when we have conversations such as this--sometimes when I say foot washings--that is not exactly the same text or passage that another is automatically referring to. So we end up with different mind pictures when talking about the same words.

So let me be specific--Joh 13:5  Then he poureth water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

Now if this is the text--then I can say with full assurance that you are clueless about foot washing.

you stated

That has been shown form the text and from Tim. I think you need to apply the warnings about dangerous grounds you like to use to your own self righteous legalistic views.  

Johnb--we both need to stay with just the texts..Granted it is far easier to simply say that these are my own self righteous legalistic views than deal with it honestly. I have been wrong before--but it takes scripture to make it so.

Johnb--that is very poor terminology--Take the foot washing--so we don't tanget off in another arena----I don't want to guess your understanding--you tell me you know more than I ABOUT IT--THEN PLEASE SHARE IT...

Thanks

Scoobydoo

Johnb--please consider the other gospel accounts relating to this event--thanks


« Last Edit: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 12:33:05 by Scoobydoo »

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #35 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 12:23:46 »

Offline Scoobydoo

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #36 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 12:30:52 »
Zoonance--greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

you said to Johnb--Johnb, Ray Charles could see their blindspots.  Blindspots are of course blindspots.  We have to have a mirror or another person point them out for us.  They don't want their blindspots to be recognized because the rest of their understanding and comfort zone concerning their salvation would be questioned.  Being blindsided will be interpreted as the other guys fault. 

My observation--Yet has not Johnb done the same exact thing with me???Oh--you do not consider calling one who disagrees with you in this vein--like self righteous legalism?? rofl

Scoobydoo ::reading::

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #36 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 12:30:52 »

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #37 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 20:43:34 »
Scooby
 I am staying with the text.  I am also staying with the basic rules of CENI.  If a specific command is given and it is reinforced  with an approved example then it must be followed.  This is the rule Thai is used for baptism singing only etc.  The argument is made that one can not add to or substitute something else for the specific command.  Christ gave the command and an approved example of foot washing in John 13.  It is also obvious that it was a pratice in the first century because in I Tim 5:10 one of the requirement for a widow indeed was that she washed the saints feet.  The argument can be and has been made by some that it is a mater of obedience because Peter was told if he did not let Jesus wash his feet he could have no part of Him.
I also understand and agree that it was really about service and humility.  I understand that wearing sandals and walking every where is no longer part of our culture.  However, if one trys to apply the same liberty of interp. to other commands and examples they are condemned.  Take the no instrument argument.  "It only said to sing"  A specific command so one can not do anything different.  The argument that a psalm was always accompanied by an instrument is cast off.  The fact that folks were commanded to play instruments in the OT is cast off, harps in heaven and trumpets at the end of time does not matter.  We are also told to make a joyful noise.  That can be done with instruments and other ways.  The argument can be made that giving praise to God by making a joyful noise is what is important not what is used or not used.  
You see you have to change the rules over and over to try an make this "pattern"  that must be followed.  I could do the same  "the real purpose of the command was..." with baptism or any other command.  However, this is only allowed when the patternist tells us it is.  

The command is to sing it is specific so nothing else will meet the requirement.

The command was to wash feet it was specific and unlike "only sing" it has clear examples therefore to be consistant one must wash feet.

blituri

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #38 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 21:10:47 »
If you want to wash the feet of people just out of the shower that's just fine with me.

However, you don't know of anyone who cannot understand that "speak is the opposite of poetry or music" who would accept your view that washing feet was either commanded, exampled or inferred as an ACT OF WORSHIP.

You might be interested in knowing that the commanded verb used in teaching that which is written is SPEAK.  The result is singing AND making melody IN THE HEART: that is a place where our WORSHIP is in the PLACE rather than in the FLESH.


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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #38 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 21:10:47 »

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #39 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 21:49:31 »
Blit
You really need to find some to say to be the slightest but relevant.  You have the same thing to say on every thread about every subject.  It is dumb ad boring. 

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #39 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 21:49:31 »



HRoberson

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #40 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 22:07:31 »
So, the principle is that we don't necessarily have to follow New Testament examples if we can rationalize it.
Of course! That's the entire point - to keep folks in line with what we have already decided is "right."

Offline Scoobydoo

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #41 on: Sat Nov 07, 2009 - 22:52:56 »
Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Thank you for telling you that you are clueless here. I did give you a clue by telling you to read the other gospels on this. Bet a nickel you didn't--did you?

One should understand "feetwashing" before we go raring off trying to use it as a club to deny CENI..   

Joh 13:5  After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

Mar 14:13  And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
Mar 14:14  And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Mar 14:15  And he will shew you a large upper room furnished and prepared: there make ready for us.
Mar 14:16  And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
Mar 14:17  And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.
Mar 14:18  And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
Mar 14:19  And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
Mar 14:20  And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.

This what I mean when I talk about covenants--we have the same problem here--we read but we don't think beyond what we have been told and what to accept.

You want to make this a CENI..

First--question--what in that world is a man doing carrying water? Have you not considered whom in the home normally washes feet--normally carries the water?  Consider that the house was empty--the master of the home was not there.  If He had been, this issue would not of come up. If He was wealthy a slave would of washed the feet of the men.

In no way is this the "normal procedure" out of this culture for feet washing and yet you continue to try and force CENI UPON IT. Why? So you can use it as  club to try and deny CENI???

Remember, you told me this..


Scooby
 I am staying with the text.  I am also staying with the basic rules of CENI.  If a specific command is given and it is reinforced  with an approved example then it must be followed.  This is the rule Thai is used for baptism singing only etc.

Now if you can make CENI out of of non normal procedure done once...have at it. Personally, I know better than to make that attempt. It is a fruitless effort.

In that Culture--foot washing was the norm---However in the worship of the early church did not happen when they were together bowing down and worshipping God.

The example in Tim is not a church ordinance--You are simply trying to appropriate it...from out of the culture and make it binding.

Now, the culture of the time covers both covenants...but it is not church-- And for those who can read--that foot washing took place at the Lord's last passover--which does not come after the cross. enough said.

you stated

 The argument is made that one can not add to or substitute something else for the specific command.  Christ gave the command and an approved example of foot washing in John 13.

MY observation-- One does not need to--Christ did indeed give the command..but not to the whole wide world--nope just to those men present with him at the Passover.  An event as such that disappeared at the cross with the death of Jesus.

you stated

It is also obvious that it was a pratice in the first century because in I Tim 5:10 one of the requirement for a widow indeed was that she washed the saints feet.  The argument can be and has been made by some that it is a mater of obedience because Peter was told if he did not let Jesus wash his feet he could have no part of Him.

My response--Oh it was indeed--but wasn't it a tad bit hard to do to the saints while they were using their feet??

"others" are as clueless as you are about this..

Now, let me admit something--for thirty years in the church...so was I...But I started listening and I started looking at exactly what I was or was not reading.

you said

I also understand and agree that it was really about service and humility.  I understand that wearing sandals and walking every where is no longer part of our culture.  However, if one trys to apply the same liberty of interp. to other commands and examples they are condemned.

My response--It is with foot washing because folks are not using it not even as a "norm" from the culture nor considering that it was a Jew teaching Jews and Jesus used foot washing to make a point--not to make footwashing CENI.

This whole section is sectioned off at both ends with love--not footwashing.

you stated

Take the no instrument argument.  "It only said to sing"  A specific command so one can not do anything different.  The argument that a psalm was always accompanied by an instrument is cast off.

My observation --Let's take this-- If you guys would stay with this--it would be all over..Now, do you think we are _____ using this argument? Or, are you that ____________?  This is not hard to understand--if one wants to.
Now, I am serious--YOu know that I know better--and I know that you are not __________..yet you continue to parrot an argument that does not work--never has worked.

It is very much like the foot washing...you are attempting the same thing here...

[1] Because the command is sing---and it is not sing with an instrument--the folks who have gone before you knew this and you don't?

In the culture--foot washing was acceptable and necessary--In the culture psalms could be accompanied with an instrument
BUT NEVER EVER IN THE CHURCH..

Ok--are you trying to convince to yourself? 

And if for no other reason unlike the Old Covenant--where we can find authorization for instruments--such is sadly lacking in the New Covenant.  As Priests of the most high God offering up sacrifices--IM as a sacrifice is not approved by God thus making it an act of unrighteousness. Not a good deal.

you stated

The fact that folks were commanded to play instruments in the OT is cast off, harps in heaven and trumpets at the end of time does not matter.

My response--these are tired old and very ineffective defenses of IM. But I do understand that there is nothing better around.

When one as a Priest seeks to offer those sacrifices that are given by God for man to offer--those things are considered and you know they are.

You are "NOT IN HEAVEN" You "DO NOT LIVE UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW AND THE PROPHETS"  You do however LIVE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT-- AND under that new covenant--there is no authorization for the insturment in man's worship.

you said

We are also told to make a joyful noise.  That can be done with instruments and other ways.  The argument can be made that giving praise to God by making a joyful noise is what is important not what is used or not used. 
You see you have to change the rules over and over to try an make this "pattern"  that must be followed.  I could do the same  "the real purpose of the command was..." with baptism or any other command.  However, this is only allowed when the patternist tells us it is. 

My response--CENI comes to man from God..folks seem to tend to want to forget that. The command as I remember it is the "you" is literally everyone "you" not just a few "you's"

Remember, our common adversary--He knows better but also strongly believes that you do not--ergo this conversation with statements that are known to be faulty.

He is NOT interested in winning discussions only in winning souls..

Scoobydoo

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #42 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 07:13:36 »
Scooby
With all your rambling you are still inconsistent.  You ask.
Now if you can make CENI out of of non normal procedure done once...have at it. Personally, I know better than to make that attempt. It is a fruitless effort.

The saints met often and broke bread even daily.  However, there is only one place this common pratice is mentioned as being on "the first day of the week."  However, the CoC has made it a command to take the LS (even though it is not clear from the text that it was the LS) and made it a command or or dinace for the church to take the LS every first day and only on the first day.

ll you babbling about bringing water etc has nothing to do with the act.  Yes this was an act normally preformed by a slave.  Yet the Son of God preformed it to show service and humility and told His followers to do the same.  The specific command was to wash feet.  No different than the specific command to sing.    You my brother (yes I do consider you my brother )are the clueless one about binding your own conclusions on others.

Offline Scoobydoo

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #43 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 13:53:15 »
Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas

ll you babbling about bringing water etc has nothing to do with the act.  Yes this was an act normally preformed by a slave.  Yet the Son of God preformed it to show service and humility and told His followers to do the same.  The specific command was to wash feet.  No different than the specific command to sing.    You my brother (yes I do consider you my brother )are the clueless one about binding your own conclusions on others.

My response--I see you were clueless. That is what I thought or you would not keep trying to bring it in.

No one denies it was an act---but it was not normal in the cultural proceeding of how they did things.

And, it was the last Passover meal--And that went away at the cross.

Johnb, I am not having this conversation with you because I consider you my brother--You belong to a group that does not teach New Covenant teaching--using Im is an act of unrighteousness--you keep trying to bring in other issues to show validity for your position.

Here is not what you are getting...The churches of Christ are not the standard unit of measurement--God IS!! and, His Word.

Those who are in Christ--came in the right way--and stay there the same way...by faith and by trusting God.  Those who use and practise or support the use of IM are taking the same position the Jews in the days of Jesus took--and it got them nothing but grief.

CENI is the WORD OF GOD....That is where CENI IS FOUND!!  your standard response to those who point out "problems" with your position is not scriptural--but self rightous legalists...that is a "cop out" and keeps you from dealing with the texts.

YOU KNOW--you cannot provide one single text out of the New Covenant in our world authorizing the use of IM.  So you attack those things that show otherwise never grasping the point--it is not authorized--you are not interested in the fact that it is not authorized. You seek support for your man made position and there are many who will follow after.

Today is the Lord's day--I am taking my life to the gathering of the saints and we are going to offer up sacrifices well pleasing unto our Lord--that is those we can prove He has given us to offer and has approved of.  IM is not a part of that process.

I cannot help it that you are no longer a member of the body of Christ--your choices are yours to make. Don't believe me???  Neither did the Jews in Malachi when God told them they were not making it.. ::watchingclock::

Scoobydoo ::reading::


Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #44 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 14:16:31 »
Scooby
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

1.  We can agree on the bible as the standard not the CoC.  The problem is you want to make you understanding of the bible the measure for all.

2. When you talk about looking at the text like most in the CoC you do not want to apply the same rules of interp. to all passages.  Example the LS that I referred to.

3.  I am glad it is God who will determine the rightness or wrongness of my position and not you.

4.  There is no specific commands for how we do church.  There is not even a reference to a "worship service" only an assembly of the saints.  Our lives are to be the reasonable service Rom 12:1.  It is clear to me and most of the Christian world that God is concerned  about our hearts and faith not how well we keep rules from a human theology.

5.  Further discussion would be fruitless especially since you have broken the forum rule to question ones salvation as opposed to their theology or understanding of scripture.  That is why it is called grace centered.

" He drew a circle that excluded me: I drew a circle that included him."  W Carl Kecherside

Offline Scoobydoo

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #45 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 15:59:58 »
Johnb Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

When we look at the cross--often folks see "forgiveness of sins" but do not see that it was obedience by the Son to the Father that also brought the cross.  

Joh 14:30  Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Joh 14:31  But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So my last response is this---Obedience is required and that obedience is to the word of God.
You should understand my concern--judgment has already been made--One's fate can easily be determined not by another person but by the texts-and those texts say the same exact same thing to all of us.

One does not choose to follow the texts--one does not go--that applies to me, to you and to the whole world.

Good luck, JohnB



Scoobydoo ::reading::
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 11, 2009 - 09:14:20 by Scoobydoo »

Offline OkiMar

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #46 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 16:07:00 »
It is not that we can't figure out that foot washing is not commanded today.  It is just that if one follows the rules on CENI consistently it would be.  Big difference.
John,
How so? If one uses CENI, why MUST he believe foot washing is commanded today?
The use of CENI does not mean that we ignore context, audience, scope, and purpose.

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #47 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 16:14:36 »
Scooby
 I am staying with the text.  I am also staying with the basic rules of CENI.  If a specific command is given and it is reinforced  with an approved example then it must be followed.  This is the rule Thai is used for baptism singing only etc.  The argument is made that one can not add to or substitute something else for the specific command.  Christ gave the command and an approved example of foot washing in John 13.  It is also obvious that it was a pratice in the first century because in I Tim 5:10 one of the requirement for a widow indeed was that she washed the saints feet.  The argument can be and has been made by some that it is a mater of obedience because Peter was told if he did not let Jesus wash his feet he could have no part of Him.
I also understand and agree that it was really about service and humility.  I understand that wearing sandals and walking every where is no longer part of our culture.  However, if one trys to apply the same liberty of interp. to other commands and examples they are condemned.  Take the no instrument argument.  "It only said to sing"  A specific command so one can not do anything different.  The argument that a psalm was always accompanied by an instrument is cast off.  The fact that folks were commanded to play instruments in the OT is cast off, harps in heaven and trumpets at the end of time does not matter.  We are also told to make a joyful noise.  That can be done with instruments and other ways.  The argument can be made that giving praise to God by making a joyful noise is what is important not what is used or not used.  
You see you have to change the rules over and over to try an make this "pattern"  that must be followed.  I could do the same  "the real purpose of the command was..." with baptism or any other command.  However, this is only allowed when the patternist tells us it is.  

The command is to sing it is specific so nothing else will meet the requirement.

The command was to wash feet it was specific and unlike "only sing" it has clear examples therefore to be consistant one must wash feet.


Lively:  There is no specific command there to wash feet...  

No C for command...

There is no specific example there to follow, that is that one must wash feet.

No E for Example...

There is an Necessary Inference there to follow, what is inferred is that we are to serve one another...

Yes for NI for Necessary Inference...

 
So lets be honest, you really do not want to follow CENIS as the scripture in John actually does teach.


Joh 13:7  Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.


If Peter does know exactly what Jesus is doing, then Jesus lied when he stated he did not know now what he was doing...  Peter stated what he believed Jesus was doing... washing feet.  Obviously, this is not the lesson Jesus is teaching or Peter would have known what Jesus was doing.  Therefore it is not about feet washing at all... feet washing is simply  used to make a point of a lesson being taught which is not specifically about feet washing...  Either Peter knows what he is doing now, or he does not, scripture and Jesus states he does not know now, that he shall know hereafter... that is, at a later time.


Joh 13:12  So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?


Did they know what he had done unto them?  Well, if it was washing their feet which is what he literally did, then yes they knew what he did, but if it is not about washing feet, then no they do not know now what he has done, but will know hereafter... that is sometime in the future.



Luk 22:24  And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25  And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26  But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27  For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.


The reason for the foot washing...  strife between the brethren, which shall be accounted greatest in the kingdom...  This is to what Jesus is teaching the lesson...  He uses foot washing to make his point...  He their master has girded a towel around his waste and is washing their feet... serving them...  Yet he is their master...  the point being, Jesus did not come to be served, but to serve others...  His serving others is an example for his disciples to serve one another... the point he is trying to make... while he is their master, he is here serving them... so they ought also to serve one another.  He that will be greatest in the kingdom let him be servant of all...  Not to Lord over other disciples and have them serve him.  They shall not be benefactors in this life, as the Gentiles are benefactors... as one exercises Lordship over another...  Therefore the example of Jesus washing feet is about teaching his disciples to serve one another and not worry about who shall be the greatest as if they will at this time be benefactors of service from others...  He that will be great in the kingdom, let him be your servant... even as I Jesus am serving you by washing your feet...  Now the question may become, well is the only way I can serve others by washing their feet?  Of coarse not, that is rediculous, just like having to explain this for the Um-teenth time because we refuse to listen to what is actually being taught by Jesus, and those who would be of a mind to show others what the lesson is...  the option left you is to believe footwashing is a literal commandment, and ignore what Jesus stated, what I do now, thou knowest not.  Feel free to take the following out of its context and make the literal foot washing a commandment and example to follow, and ignore the lesson Jesus was teaching using foot washing...  I am always available to you to come and wash my feet for you to keep that foot washing commandment you insist these verses are teaching...


Joh 13:13  Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14  If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.



Somebody who posted that lesson earlier want to repost that again about footwashing and what the point of it was... I think someone needs to see and read it more more time...  I went back and found it, it was in another thread...



Here is an example of a command not followed by the CENI CoC folks today.

In John 13 the Son of God put on the apron of a slave and washed the feet of the apostles.  When Peter objected Jesus told him that if he did not allow him to wash his feet he would have no part of him.  After He finished He commanded the apostles to do the same for others.

Here we have a clear command to wash feet and an approved example by the Son of God.  According to the CENI theology this should be a command to be followed.  However, they say He was teaching a lesson in humility and that could be done in other ways.

Lets examine that idea.  It is clearly a command followed by an approved example.  In addition the so called law of exclusion applies.  He did not say you can show humility some other way He said wash feet.   If the law of exclusion excludes playing with singing and excludes any thing from the LS but bread and fruit of the vine then this command excludes everything but foot washing.  If not why not?  Break out the water and towels! 
Here is a good article by Wayne Jackson on the subject of foot washing:
Quote
Did Jesus Institute Ceremonial “Feet-Washing

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #48 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 18:29:06 »
Okimar
I am simple following the rules of CENI as presented to me by TB Warren many years ago.

Although you may be like scooby and lively blinded by desire to be correct and not see the inconsistency I will simply point out that there is more evidence from scripture for foot washing to be a pratice than taking the LS every sunday and only on Sunday. Also to only sing.  It takes a lot of not simple or clear human reasoning to bind weekly observance of the LS and even more for non IM. 

Lively what part of the English language do you not understand?

You stated that foot washing was not a command then posted Jesus commanding it in John 13:14
You also stated it was not an example then quoted John 13:15 where Jesus said I give you this example.

You can deny it on culture etc but not that it is not a specific command and example.

Is Jesus teaching servanthood and humility?  Yes!  However if one follows the principles of CENI it was a specific command.  They were told to show  servanthood by washing feet.

This is no different than one who will say sprinkling . or pooring can be baptism as well as immersion because the real lesson was about remembering the death of the old man and becoming a new man in Christ.  It is not the act but the lesson behind the act.  This would be the same type of reasoning that you use to cast off foot washing. 

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #49 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 19:11:40 »
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iBV0DCbnBc&NR=1[/youtube]

interesting observations that I believe has to do with real restoration

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmfUNydXYOY&NR=1[/youtube]



bumped for two reasons. 1) because I learned how to post a video!  2) I believe these do address real restoration - the topic

Offline OkiMar

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #50 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 20:02:08 »
Okimar
I am simple following the rules of CENI as presented to me by TB Warren many years ago.

Although you may be like scooby and lively blinded by desire to be correct and not see the inconsistency I will simply point out that there is more evidence from scripture for foot washing to be a pratice than taking the LS every sunday and only on Sunday. Also to only sing.  It takes a lot of not simple or clear human reasoning to bind weekly observance of the LS and even more for non IM. 

Lively what part of the English language do you not understand?

You stated that foot washing was not a command then posted Jesus commanding it in John 13:14
You also stated it was not an example then quoted John 13:15 where Jesus said I give you this example.

You can deny it on culture etc but not that it is not a specific command and example.

Is Jesus teaching servanthood and humility?  Yes!  However if one follows the principles of CENI it was a specific command.  They were told to show  servanthood by washing feet.

This is no different than one who will say sprinkling . or pooring can be baptism as well as immersion because the real lesson was about remembering the death of the old man and becoming a new man in Christ.  It is not the act but the lesson behind the act.  This would be the same type of reasoning that you use to cast off foot washing. 
Cone on, John. This is weak. If you learned at the feet of Warren, then surely you know that he considered legislated foot-washing as binding where God has not bound. I'm sure you've read his book, "When is an Example Binding," where he discusses the issue.
The simple fact is that CENI advocates do not consider foot washing to be perpetual command for the NT church because foot washing is essentially a metaphor for service and humility. Foot washing is not the lesson to be learned from the passage. That's why CENI advocates do not incorporate the practice.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #51 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 21:59:59 »
Okimar
Yes Brother Warren rejected foot washing as binding ( I also reject it for some of the same reasons)  However, if you apply the same logic he and others reject it on one could also reject immersion as the only form of baptism, LS every Sunday and only on Sunday and Singing only.  What I am getting at is the same concept that our restoration founders had.  That being to understand that these conclusion are simply that conclusions based on human reasoning and should not be bound as a test of fellowship on those whose understanding and comprehension is less.   
IMO and most of the Christian world the argument for absolute requirement for the LS every Sunday and only on Sunday is weak and based almost entirely on conjecture and tradition.   The same can be said for non IM.

Now all that being said if one truly believes that IM is wrong and that they must take the LS every Sunday then for them it would be sin to violate their conscience.  I also believe it is sin to bind those views on others and condemn them to a position less than a brother or sister.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #52 on: Sun Nov 08, 2009 - 22:49:51 »
It has to be purposefully that this discussion isn't about foot washing at all but about the inconsistent application of CENI based on somebody's teaching.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #53 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 07:05:34 »
Yep!

Offline Snargles

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #54 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 10:57:31 »
If foot washing can be explained away by culture then so could immersion. Ritualistic cleansing was a Jewish thing; that is why there were so many baptismal pools scatterred around Jerusalem. The bread and FOTV of the LS are also cultural. They relate back to the Passover. Having women keep their mouths shut is cultural. Jewish women were supposed to be submissive; my wife and I are not and never have been Jewish.

The only CENI I agree with is Paul's instruction to Timothy. I gave up water for Riesling.   ::cheers:: 

Offline OkiMar

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #55 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 13:57:13 »
But foot washing is not being explained away by culture.

Offline Livelysword

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #56 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 14:01:20 »
Okimar
I am simple following the rules of CENI as presented to me by TB Warren many years ago.

Although you may be like scooby and lively blinded by desire to be correct and not see the inconsistency I will simply point out that there is more evidence from scripture for foot washing to be a pratice than taking the LS every sunday and only on Sunday. Also to only sing.  It takes a lot of not simple or clear human reasoning to bind weekly observance of the LS and even more for non IM. 

Lively what part of the English language do you not understand?

You stated that foot washing was not a command then posted Jesus commanding it in John 13:14
You also stated it was not an example then quoted John 13:15 where Jesus said I give you this example.

You can deny it on culture etc but not that it is not a specific command and example.

Is Jesus teaching servanthood and humility?  Yes!  However if one follows the principles of CENI it was a specific command.  They were told to show  servanthood by washing feet.

This is no different than one who will say sprinkling . or pooring can be baptism as well as immersion because the real lesson was about remembering the death of the old man and becoming a new man in Christ.  It is not the act but the lesson behind the act.  This would be the same type of reasoning that you use to cast off foot washing. 


Lively:  LOLOLOL... ok John let me see if I can give you another illustration, to see if you can grasp what it is Jesus is doing...  there was a movie called the karate kid... and Mr Meoggie if I got that name correct, had Daniel wax cars...  right hand in circles clockwise, left hand in circles counter clockwise...  was the lesson really about waxing cars, or about Karate, and how to block punches?  Did Daniel know what Meoggie was teaching him when he had him wax the car, or would he come to understand that Lesson thereafter?  If you have not seen the movie and do not know what I am speaking of... by all means get the first one... I believe it is the karate kid 1...  it was a series, and Meoggie taught Daniel many lessons using the same type teaching...


The example to do as Jesus has done, to the apostles, is not literal foot washing but to serve one another...  he is using foot washing as an example of serving one another...


Did you read these verses at all that I posted?



Luk 22:24  And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25  And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26  But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27  For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.


Offline Livelysword

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #57 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 14:29:19 »
If foot washing can be explained away by culture then so could immersion. Ritualistic cleansing was a Jewish thing; that is why there were so many baptismal pools scatterred around Jerusalem. The bread and FOTV of the LS are also cultural. They relate back to the Passover. Having women keep their mouths shut is cultural. Jewish women were supposed to be submissive; my wife and I are not and never have been Jewish.

The only CENI I agree with is Paul's instruction to Timothy. I gave up water for Riesling.   ::cheers:: 


Lively:  It is not about explaining away something by culture.  While foot washing was done to show kindness, it is not the only way to show kindness... it is not the only way to serve one another...  one is served best when one has his needs met.


Luk 7:44  And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45  Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46  My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.



So, if a man needed help, such as the following...


Luk 10:30  And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 10:31  And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32  And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33  But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Luk 10:34  And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35  And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36  Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37  And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


He took care that which was needful to him...  I mean, he could have just washed his feet and sent him on his way right?   If we are  not getting the lesson that Jesus is using foot washing as an example to serve one another, then we have not gotten the message Jesus was teaching...  Foot washing can be needful, especially during that culture, but it is not about foot washing in particular, but about serving one another... and foot washing was a way many back then showed kindness to one another and served them during their journeys...  Here is another example of doing that which is needful to serve one another...


Jas 2:15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?


What would these folks need to best serve them?  Foot washing?  Clothes and food?  I have to tell you, I am truly amazed this lesson is not being understood....  it baffles my mind...

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #58 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 15:37:20 »
Lively
The point of Jesus washing feet was servanthood and humility not necessarily kindness.  That is why He put on the apron of a slave to do it.  That is why Peter objected because his leader, and savior was preforming the act of a slave.  I understand all that.  That is not even the point of the discussion.  The point is the inconsistent position you take on CENI.

If the example of sing only being a specific binding command because He only said to sing not play.  The it logically follows that the specific command of Jesus to show servanthood by washing feet should be binding because He only said to wash feet.  He did not authorize any other method.  He said to wash feet.

If Acts 20:7 is a binding example to take the LS on the first day of the week and only on the first day then it logically follows that we should wash feet. 

If we must baptize by immersion and only by immersion because that is the binding example then we must wash feet because that is the only example Jesus authorized in John 13.

All I am asking is for folks to be consistant in their binding of commands and examples.     

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #59 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 16:41:58 »
johnb, karate kid has more umph than reason!

Offline Snargles

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #60 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 17:01:39 »
But foot washing is not being explained away by culture.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "explained away". We use the foot washing example to show how we are to have the spirit of a servant and say that in Jesus' culture servanthood could be demonstrated by washing feet but in our culture we have other ways to serve others. However, if we can substitute one action for another here, why can't we make other substitutions? Why not have roast beef and pomegranite juice for the LS? No one would miss the symbolism of eating flesh. If we can change one outward action why can't we change others? To be selective in applying CENI destroys its usefulness as a doctrine.

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #61 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 17:27:28 »
Quote Zoo
johnb, karate kid has more umph than reason!

Wax on Wax off.  Now I see Jesus was preparing the disciples to fight with their feet.  rofl

Problem is you have to have at least 1 foot left to stand on to win the fight.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #62 on: Mon Nov 09, 2009 - 19:16:21 »
Maybe it was about clipping each other's nails or examining for hangnails - a missionary's flat tire in those days.  The text doesn't say. 

Offline Livelysword

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #63 on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 15:53:22 »
Lively
The point of Jesus washing feet was servanthood and humility not necessarily kindness.  That is why He put on the apron of a slave to do it.  That is why Peter objected because his leader, and savior was preforming the act of a slave.  I understand all that.  That is not even the point of the discussion.  The point is the inconsistent position you take on CENI.

If the example of sing only being a specific binding command because He only said to sing not play.  The it logically follows that the specific command of Jesus to show servanthood by washing feet should be binding because He only said to wash feet.  He did not authorize any other method.  He said to wash feet.

If Acts 20:7 is a binding example to take the LS on the first day of the week and only on the first day then it logically follows that we should wash feet. 

If we must baptize by immersion and only by immersion because that is the binding example then we must wash feet because that is the only example Jesus authorized in John 13.

All I am asking is for folks to be consistant in their binding of commands and examples.     


Lively:  I agree it definitely was done out of teaching a lesson of humility... He was humbling himself to wash their feet to show an example that they need to humble themselves and serve one another...  but if one's motive to wash a saints feet is not out of love and just servitude, I think he has missed the mark...


Gal 5:13  For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.


I believe love of another is the best reason to wash an others feet... even like the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears...  Is not the reason why Jesus himself came to earth to serve men, because of the great love he had for us?

Offline Livelysword

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #64 on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 16:01:14 »
Maybe it was about clipping each other's nails or examining for hangnails - a missionary's flat tire in those days.  The text doesn't say. 


Lively:  Maybe it was about showing that because one teaches by an example, the example he uses to teach a principle, does not necessitate the example he uses to teach that principle is the example he has in mind for the student to learn.

Offline Snargles

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #65 on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 16:42:09 »
Maybe it was about clipping each other's nails or examining for hangnails - a missionary's flat tire in those days.  The text doesn't say. 


Lively:  Maybe it was about showing that because one teaches by an example, the example he uses to teach a principle, does not necessitate the example he uses to teach that principle is the example he has in mind for the student to learn.

So an example is not always an example.

That puts CENI in the realm of opinion, but whose opinion?

Offline zoonance

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #66 on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 17:03:01 »
Lively
The point of Jesus washing feet was servanthood and humility not necessarily kindness.  That is why He put on the apron of a slave to do it.  That is why Peter objected because his leader, and savior was preforming the act of a slave.  I understand all that.  That is not even the point of the discussion.  The point is the inconsistent position you take on CENI.

If the example of sing only being a specific binding command because He only said to sing not play.  The it logically follows that the specific command of Jesus to show servanthood by washing feet should be binding because He only said to wash feet.  He did not authorize any other method.  He said to wash feet.

If Acts 20:7 is a binding example to take the LS on the first day of the week and only on the first day then it logically follows that we should wash feet. 

If we must baptize by immersion and only by immersion because that is the binding example then we must wash feet because that is the only example Jesus authorized in John 13.

All I am asking is for folks to be consistant in their binding of commands and examples.     


Lively:  I agree it definitely was done out of teaching a lesson of humility... He was humbling himself to wash their feet to show an example that they need to humble themselves and serve one another...  but if one's motive to wash a saints feet is not out of love and just servitude, I think he has missed the mark...


Gal 5:13  For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.


I believe love of another is the best reason to wash an others feet... even like the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears...  Is not the reason why Jesus himself came to earth to serve men, because of the great love he had for us?




So the greatest proof of the love of Jesus would be to wash our feet.

Offline OkiMar

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #67 on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 21:48:31 »
But foot washing is not being explained away by culture.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "explained away". We use the foot washing example to show how we are to have the spirit of a servant and say that in Jesus' culture servanthood could be demonstrated by washing feet but in our culture we have other ways to serve others. However, if we can substitute one action for another here, why can't we make other substitutions? Why not have roast beef and pomegranite juice for the LS? No one would miss the symbolism of eating flesh. If we can change one outward action why can't we change others? To be selective in applying CENI destroys its usefulness as a doctrine.
We cannot substitute items in the Lord's Supper because it is not authorized. Partaking of the Lord's Supper is an act of worship. Foot washing is not an act of worship. Therein lies the difference.

Offline Snargles

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #68 on: Tue Nov 10, 2009 - 22:22:28 »
Quote
We cannot substitute items in the Lord's Supper because it is not authorized. Partaking of the Lord's Supper is an act of worship. Foot washing is not an act of worship. Therein lies the difference.

So then, does CENI only apply to "acts of worship"?

Offline Johnb

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Re: Real Restoration
« Reply #69 on: Wed Nov 11, 2009 - 06:19:51 »
If the LS is to remind us of the death of Christ and foot washing is to remind us of servanthood and humility why would one be and "act of worship" and the other not?  Remember Peter was told if he did not allow it he would have no part...

Where in the NT is either called an "act of worship"?  For that matter where is there a "worship service" in the NT? 
I thought our bodies IE life was the living sacrifice and reasonable worship.  Rom 12:1

Since there is no "worship service" nor "acts of worship" in the NT each group has decided what their "worship service" will look like and what "acts" will be included.  Clearly human reasoning clearly opinion.

 

     
anything