The fallacy of CENI

[HRoberson]

Somewhat inconsistent in application, but a generally good understanding.

The problem is that one must be able to make the appropriate distinctions and understand context correctly.

This is the key to understanding why those who oppose instruments (or, for Blit's sake, those that oppose anything other than reading text in "church") really don't understand the point of the passages they seek to use as "proof."

What is clear is that most of those folks that claim CENI as their authority for concluding wrongly on these topics do normally use CENI inappropriately and inconsistently. CENI in the hands of people that don't grasp the text well from the start can be used to authorize or prohibit whatever they like or don't like.

Evidence for this conclusion? The forty-seven forms of "church of Christ" and the need to eliminate IM-using congregations from "The Directory of Churches of Christ in the United States" based on some assumed requirement to remain true to a denominational mark rather than Scripture.

[Livelysword]

Somewhat inconsistent in application, but a generally good understanding.

The problem is that one must be able to make the appropriate distinctions and understand context correctly.

This is the key to understanding why those who oppose instruments (or, for Blit's sake, those that oppose anything other than reading text in "church") really don't understand the point of the passages they seek to use as "proof."

What is clear is that most of those folks that claim CENI as their authority for concluding wrongly on these topics do normally use CENI inappropriately and inconsistently. CENI in the hands of people that don't grasp the text well from the start can be used to authorize or prohibit whatever they like or don't like.

Evidence for this conclusion? The forty-seven forms of "church of Christ" and the need to eliminate IM-using congregations from "The Directory of Churches of Christ in the United States" based on some assumed requirement to remain true to a denominational mark rather than Scripture.

Lively:  I could not agree more that the division of the church is caused by heresy, false teaching, and much of which is from NOT understanding how to establish biblical authority for all we do.  The lack of sound hermeneutics, and inability to use CENIS as taught within scripture, leads people astray from the truth of sound NT teaching and doctrine.  The inability to understand a parable, and the meanings of things done to teach lessons which are not grasped by many, all leads people into false teachings and apostasy. 

[Johnb]

HR Quote
What is clear is that most of those folks that claim CENI as their authority for concluding wrongly on these topics do normally use CENI inappropriately and inconsistently. CENI in the hands of people that don't grasp the text well from the start can be used to authorize or prohibit whatever they like or don't like.

Evidence for this conclusion? The forty-seven forms of "church of Christ" and the need to eliminate IM-using congregations from "The Directory of Churches of Christ in the United States" based on some assumed requirement to remain true to a denominational mark rather than Scripture

Exactly!  At least you understand that my pointing out inconsistencies and others strong beliefs are simply to show that CENI is not the end all.

[Livelysword]

HR Quote
What is clear is that most of those folks that claim CENI as their authority for concluding wrongly on these topics do normally use CENI inappropriately and inconsistently. CENI in the hands of people that don't grasp the text well from the start can be used to authorize or prohibit whatever they like or don't like.

Evidence for this conclusion? The forty-seven forms of "church of Christ" and the need to eliminate IM-using congregations from "The Directory of Churches of Christ in the United States" based on some assumed requirement to remain true to a denominational mark rather than Scripture

Exactly!  At least you understand that my pointing out inconsistencies and others strong beliefs are simply to show that CENI is not the end all.

Lively:  If you have a mouth and you see CENIS not being properly applied, say something, but do not knock the system Christ himself uses, and which God expects us to use.  Again, the problem is not with CENIS, but with those who apply it wrongly.

[DCR]

HR Quote
What is clear is that most of those folks that claim CENI as their authority for concluding wrongly on these topics do normally use CENI inappropriately and inconsistently. CENI in the hands of people that don't grasp the text well from the start can be used to authorize or prohibit whatever they like or don't like.

Evidence for this conclusion? The forty-seven forms of "church of Christ" and the need to eliminate IM-using congregations from "The Directory of Churches of Christ in the United States" based on some assumed requirement to remain true to a denominational mark rather than Scripture

Exactly!  At least you understand that my pointing out inconsistencies and others strong beliefs are simply to show that CENI is not the end all.

Lively:  If you have a mouth and you see CENIS not being properly applied, say something, but do not knock the system Christ himself uses, and which God expects us to use.  Again, the problem is not with CENIS, but with those who apply it wrongly.

Showing where Christ ever used commands in one instance, examples in another, or perhaps even made inferences in other cases does not prove that Christ used the particular "CENI system" we're talking about here.

Showing where specific aspects of a system are used is not proof that the system itself was used.



There may be a recipe for baking a cake that includes the instruction of turning on the oven.  But, when someone is shown to be turning on the oven in a particular case, that does not necessarily mean that the person is following the recipe to bake a cake.  He or she could be turning on the oven to cook a roast.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.  


But, in the end, the problem with the "CENI system" is not with the commands, examples, and necessary inferences.  The problem is in the general framework and set of assumptions in which the framework is applied.  

[Johnb]

Quote Lively
Lively:  If you have a mouth and you see CENIS not being properly applied, say something, but do not knock the system Christ himself uses, and which God expects us to use.  Again, the problem is not with CENIS, but with those who apply it wrongly.

Exactly what myself and others have been doing in this thread.  However, you are proof that it is falling on deaf ears.  
The sun and the waves are calling got to go.

[OkiMar]

Where are you at John?

[blituri]

Balaam demonstrated a high ethical standard when he said:

'Even if Balak gave me his palace filled with silver and gold,.

    I could not do anything of my own accord, good or bad,
    to go beyond the command of the LORD--
    and I must say only what the LORD says'? Num 24:13

[Johnb]

Where are you at John?

Gulf Shores plantation in Gulf Shores , AL   It was a little over 80degrees today.  The weather has been great all week!   Some of the most beautiful white sand beaches in the world.

[blituri]

When the Israelites refused to listen to the Word of God they rose up to PLAY in musical idolatry: as indicated in Romans 1 and lots of other passages the MUSICAL rituals both MARKED and CAUSED an outbreak of sexual perversion.

Because of that God abandoned them to worship the starry host. So, you should NOT use the CURSE of Sabazianism as YOUR patternism for musical worship. Even though they made NOISE and worship means ot fall on your face. Ask your preacher or Geek scholar WHAT BE SABAZIANISM?

You could lay out texts from the Serpent as a Musical Enchanter(ess) which Christ in the prophets called "the singing and harp playing prostitute", to the Alpha and Omega warning about the Babylon mother of harlots using lusted after "fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players John called Sorcerers and they would STILL plead ignorance. I'm Convinced.

Dt 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

The Hebrew for "serpent" in Genesis 3:1 nachash which means to hiss, mutter or whisper as do enchanters. It also means in a secondary sense to divine, or enchant or mesmerize, as a snake often does before catching its prey. It also has the meaning to shine or sparkle, like bronze or copper. Some Scriptures also tell us that Satan has an extremely attractive appearance (see e.g. 2 Cor. 11:3, 14), and this Hebrew word therefore also conveys the meaning to fascinated bewitch. (Cp. Deut. 18:10-14).

Dt 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

As the speakers, singers and instrument players in Revelation 18.

God turning them over to worship the STARRY HOST is THEIR authority and they use the COMMANDS to worship like the Babylonians as THEIR commands for worship BECAUSE God never said "Thou shalt not worship like the Babylonians.

HERE IS AN APPROVED NEGATIVE EXAMPLE

For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. Deut 18:14

Observer of times:

H6049 ‛ânan aw-nan' A primitive root; to cover; used only as denominative from H6051 ,
 to cloud over; figuratively to act covertly, that is, practise magic, enchanter, Meonemin, observe (-r of) times,
 soothsayer, sorcerer.

Anath (h6067) an-awth'; from 6030; answer; Anath, an Isr.: - Anath.

Anan (h6049) aw-nan'; a prim. root; to cover; used only as denom. from 6051, to cloud over; fig. to act covertly, i. e. practise magic: - * bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observe (-r of) times, soothsayer, sorcerer.
Anath: This Canaanite Goddess' name means 'to answer' and may be related to the Akkadian word ettu meaning 'active will.160' She was a major deity all over the western parts of the Near East, including Egypt where she was later considered to be the same Goddess as Libyan Neith. Titles for her include Belet'net 'virgin Anath,' 'Nethebely161 'the destroyer,' and Yebemet-limm 'widow of the nation(?)'162. Her worship extended from the 2nd millenium BCE deep into the Hellenistic Age, when it began to be forced underground. Like the original Athena, she ruled battle, the hunt, and the passage of souls from one world to the next. She was also a Death Goddess who wore the goatskin aegis -- or at least, the Egyptians attributed Neith's aegis to her. This sacred garment has been described as a cloak, apron, breastplate, or shield. In Anath's case, it shifted in function as religious ceremony changed. Originally it was probably a garment worn by each Libyan woman when she came of age, made of cloth and marked with snakes and Moon symbols, or made of many braids of string.

Later it was remade, parts of its feminine symbolism removed and turned into a garment worn during animal sacrifices. Then it was decorated with severed penises, representing both types of death men experience, loss of erection and the ending of their lives.

Those who have been MUSICATED cannot bring themselves to grasp that as promised the WOMEN and CHILDREN (effeminate) rule over you.  I just smile and smile because I have read Isaiah 3 written by Christ.

Lucifer (Zoe) replaced 3 tribal stones on the breastplate with wind, string and percussion instruments. Christ in Isaiah 30 says that hell was prepared for him/her and those they can seduce. The SOUNDS of being driven into hell are the same wind, string and percussion instruments.  Christ says that Lucifer/Zoe was the singing and harp playing prostitute in the Garden Eden.

When the Levites (an old Egyptian Cult) were to PROPHESY with instruments: the word means a SOOTHSAYER.  Why NOT if God turned the musical patternist's APPROVED EXAMPLE over to worship the STARS?  The linen garment of the priests was something like a "nighty" garment. The Ephod was a Babylonian vulva still worn by the Pope under his DAGON hat.

Actually, everywhere you look, it seems, they're dancing in their dresses. So we thus find The Children’s custom of dressing "like a woman," from which the later Christian priests adopted their heavenly skirts. And with the ancient KABIRI statue of a god called Cabeiros,

Plutrarch says they were the astronomers and astrologers of Chaldea around 3200 B.C.
According to Herodotus, they surfaced some 2,000 years after that as an effeminate priesthood in what is now southern Russia and present-day Ukraine. They were called the ENAREE, "endowed by the goddess Venus with the gift of prophecy."

They can also be found transformed into the wild young goat man, PAN [Beast in Revelation], frolicking through the glades. As the GALLI priest [Galatians 5] with (according to another tight-assed academic) their "revolting sensual rites [and] the hermaphroditic element," their drums thundered and cymbals clashed, spreading magic among the onlookers lining the flower-strewn streets.

Heredotus also note what is clear from the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai, the "god" of the Jews was Bacchus or Dionysus: the same "new wineskin God."  The Jews at the time of Christ were addicted to Dionysus worship and wanted to "initiate" Jesus and hoped that John wore the "soft clothing."  Zeus (father) and Dionysus (son) were worshipped as the Abomination of Desolation in the Temple. All priests were "gay brotherhoods."

REMEMBER: GOD ABANDONED THEM TO WORSHIP THE STARY HOST

David had these on his staff because he was abandoned to worship the starry host.

"We even have a mention at a later date of a similar custom in connection with the cult in Jerusalem, where certain Levites, called me'oreim, 'AROUSERS,' sang (every morning?) this verse from "Ps 44:23: "Awake, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever." The Talmud tells us that John Hyrcanus suppressed the practice because it recalled too readily a pagan custom." (Roland de Vaux, p. 247).

Enchanter:
H5172 nâchash naw-khash' A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; generally to prognosticate:-- X certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) X enchantment, learn by experience, X indeed, diligently observe.
H5175 nâchâsh naw-khawsh' From H5172 ; a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.

Ps 58:5 Which will not hearken to the voice [singing] of charmers, charming never so wisely.

H6963 qôl qôl kole, kole From an unused root meaning to call aloud; a voice or sound: + aloud, bleating, crackling, cry (+ out), fame, lightness, lowing, noise, + hold peace, [pro-] claim, proclamation, + sing, sound, + spark, thunder (-ing), voice, + yel

H3907 lachash law-khash' A primitive root; to whisper; by implication to mumble a spell (as a magician) :charmer, whisper (together).

Judas would try to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus: this is the "vocal or instrumental rejoicing OUTLAWED for the church in the wilderness." The JUDAS BAG (he was a thief) was for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments. That may be why it is so easy to betray a church by the MARK (SOP) Jesus used to cause the Devil to ENTER Judas.  He did the honorable thing and hanged himself.

Ps 41:7 - All that hate me whisper together against me: against me do they devise my hurt.

YOU CAN FOLLOW THE NEGATIVE EXAMPLE IN A CHURCH NEAR YOU, OR

The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me;
        unto him ye shall hearken; Deut 18:15

According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly,
saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. Deut 18:16

And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. Deut 18:17

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee,
        and will put my words  [father]
        in his mouth; [breath]
        and he shall speak unto them [Word or Son]
        all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18

Why would YOU guys assume more authority that Jesus Christ?  Jesus defined Father, Spirit and Son the same way: all were IN HIM and HE spoke the Word the Spirit or Breath gave Him WITHOUT METER (or so the word is very often used)

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name,
        I will require it of him. Deut 18:19

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name,

        which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods,
        even that prophet shall die. Deut 18:20

The changlings having largely fail to seduce the church have invented the MISSIONAL CHURCH: they CLAIM to have apostles and prophets which YOU must not question.  I would say that they are DEAD MEN WALKING.

For a faithful Church, Christ has NEVER been silent: you only need the LAW of silence as OWNED by the Disciples if you intend to go SECTARIAN and add instruments "not required to carry on the work of the congregation."

If you cannot HEAR the shout from Genesis to Revelation, all of the Classics and church fathers in a NEGATIVE sense and minimal common reverence IF you grasp the meaning of a synagogue or ekklesia, then Paul warns you about strong delusions.  The Book of Enoch supports the Bible and says that IF you are seduced into the company of the Cainites you have fallen and you will never get back up. You just had too many TRUMPETS blown in your ear when you were IGNORING the NOT SILENT words of Christ because of musical disablement.  Don't worry: we consider you disabled without an option.

[OkiMar]

Where are you at John?

Gulf Shores plantation in Gulf Shores , AL   It was a little over 80degrees today.  The weather has been great all week!   Some of the most beautiful white sand beaches in the world.

Currently hanging my boots in Destin, FL right now, so I wholeheartedly concur.

[OkiMar]

Interestingly, isn't it accurate to state that almost everyone uses CENI?  It seems to me that the difference is merely a matter of degree.
Christians all over the the world comply with:
1) Commands - Believe on the Lord
2) Approved Examples - Observing the Lord's Supper
3) Necessary Inference - That Philip taught baptism while he was teaching Jesus to the Eunuch

My theory is that everyone uses CENI to varying degrees just as everyone subscribes to patternism to varying degrees.

[Johnb]

Okimar

Destin is where we usually go.  Are you at the Ft Benning MWR facility there?

[Mere Nick]

Interestingly, isn't it accurate to state that almost everyone uses CENI?  It seems to me that the difference is merely a matter of degree.
Christians all over the the world comply with:
1) Commands - Believe on the Lord
2) Approved Examples - Observing the Lord's Supper
3) Necessary Inference - That Philip taught baptism while he was teaching Jesus to the Eunuch

My theory is that everyone uses CENI to varying degrees just as everyone subscribes to patternism to varying degrees.

I agree with your theory.  The big shortcoming with CENI is that, seldomly, some folks disagree about what are the commands, occasionally disagree with about what are the approved examples, and routinely disagree about what are the necessary inferences.  That's what you get when you have a bunch of folks sitting around trying to figure stuff out.

[OkiMar]

Okimar

Destin is where we usually go.  Are you at the Ft Benning MWR facility there?

No, I'm working at Eglin/Hurlburt. It's beautiful here.