The fallacy of CENI

[Livelysword]

The problem with CENI is the people who try to apply the concept without knowing what God actually is saying in Scripture, or who don't know how to interpret written documents appropriately.

Lively:  The problem is not with CENI, but with the men who lack understanding of God...  CENI is not the problem, such people are the problem...

[Johnb]

The problem with CENI is the people who try to apply the concept without knowing what God actually is saying in Scripture, or who don't know how to interpret written documents appropriately.

Lively:  The problem is not with CENI, but with the men who lack understanding of God...  CENI is not the problem, such people are the problem...

You use it yet you are unwilling to defend it in a debate format.  Perhaps because it can not be logically defended.

[blituri]

Again, it is utterly false to claim that the Church of Christ and most of recorded history used a LAW OF SILENCE to NOT do what is NOT commanded. That in itself proves that people cannot read words on paper.

When the instrument debate began in about 1827 there was NO ONE even among the Disciples / Christian churches who did not denounce the ADDITION as discording and a sin.  One small melodion was added in 1857 with no need for authority which is called SELF WILL.  When they saw the damage they did the INSTRUMENTALISTS invented the LAW OF SILENCE.

The Bible hath not said in a legal sense THOU SHALT NOT PLAY THY ORGAN IN THE CONGREGATIO. That, they said, gave THEM the right to impose instruments based on the Law of Silence. After they had ADDED from silence that became the WILL OF CHRIST.

No one who had ever read the Word of God could possibly deny that God forbids what He does not SPEAK.  That would apply to the assembly where Christ outlaws selling the Water of the Word (Isa 55).  In Isaiah 58 He outlaws seeking your own pleasure or SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS.  If you cannot grasp that it is because none of the deliberate discorders DARES teach the views of CHRIST which repudiates their silliness and identifies them as robbers and parasites.

If Christ says DO NOT SPEAK your own words and NO synagogue SPOKE THEIR OWN WORDS and Jesus exampled it and Paul commanded it and the Church of Christ practiced it for centuries then to say that YOU can speak from Silence has to make you LAWLESS.

'Even if Balak gave me his palace filled with silver and gold,.

    I could not do anything of my own accord, good or bad,
    to go beyond the command of the LORD--
    and I must say only what the LORD says'? Num 24:13

Jesus said that of HIMSELF and the Spirit or breath of God: If Jesus observed the LAW OF SILENCE how do you guys get so superior? Oh! I understand, you don't want to be despised and rejected among men. Now, I get it.

You guys are on the DOLE eating up the livings of widows and honest working people KNOWING that if you said only what the lord says they would FIRE YOU.  In the historic synagogue even a schoolboy could do that job with the elder as OVERSEER watching that he did not add any fillers or lies about "when I preached that great sermon in Texas."

[Johnb]

blit
I don't think anyone here is claiming Non IM is based of law of silence.  It is based on so called law of exclusion.

[blituri]

For we Bible students it was excluded when Christ ordained the Church of Christ in the Wilderness for the purpose of holding a Holy Convocation.  If you know WHAT IS a synagogue you don't HAVE to ask "why not music?" One should ask why it was left too the Disciples to ever NEED authority and try to justify their fall into idolatry about the same time the Presbyterians and Baptists fell.

http://www.piney.com/Origen.VI.html#LOC_P10341_2746305

Origen Book VI, Againmst Celsus who promotes Greek theology

XIX I do not indeed, deny that Plato learned from certain Hebrews the words quoted from the Phaedrus, or even, as some have recorded, that he quoted them from a perusal of our prophetic writings, when he said:

"No poet here below has ever sung of the super-celestial place, or ever will sing in a becoming manner," and so on. And in the same passage is the following: "For the essence, which is both colourless and formless, and which cannot be touched, which really exists, is the pilot of the soul, and is beheld by the understanding alone; and around it the genus of true knowledge holds this place."

Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things "supra-mundane" and "super-celestial," and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal." 

Grasping that God turned the Israelites over to worship the starry host BECAUSE of musicial idolatry; and that was Sabazianism or Dionysus (new wineskin god) was what the Levites performed as they had under Molech in Egypt:

Origen XLI In the next place, as if he had forgotten that it was his object to write against the Christians, he says that,
       "having become acquainted with one Dionysius, an Egyptian musician,
        the latter told him, with respect to magic arts,
        that it was only over the uneducated and men of corrupt morals that they had any power,

        while on philosophers they were unable to produce any effect,
        because they were careful to observe a healthy manner of life."

The Civil-Military-Clergy complex was assigned to the tribe of LEVI and Jacob warned us NOT to attend the congregational assemblies of Levi.

Jacob says I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord!" Of Simeon and Levi the patriarch remarks that they

    Gen. 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments [Sword or Musical]
             of cruelty are in their habitations.
    Gen. 49:6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret;
            unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united:
            for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

Your "scholars" who call themselves your Thought Leaders say that GOD COMMANDED them through the Spirit to ORGANZIED their assemblies after the Levite singers which no one ever doubted it was because
 
       that it was only over the uneducated and men of corrupt morals that they had any power[/b]

Wonder why YOU follow the leaders Jesus promised would "take away the key to knowledgee?"

ON THE OTHER HAND Christ commanded the Church of Christ to EXCLUDE vocal or instrumental rejoicing BECAUSE the church is in Latin:

Con-grĕgo Congrego Academia congregation. Collect into a flock,  where plato taught, scholars are called Academici, and his doctrine Philosophia Academica in distinction from the Stoica, Cynica

        while on philosophers they were unable to produce any effect,
        because they were careful to observe a healthy manner of life.

For those of corrupt morals the "Academica of the Stoica, Cynica" were run by the lowest, most debased philosophers whom Jesus identified as SOFT and Paul excluded from the worship IN THE SPIRIT as Dogs and those who would invite the dogs in called Wolves.

        Cynics Diogenes, in particular, was referred to as the Dog..
        a distinction he seems to have revelled in,
        stating that "other dogs bite their enemies, I bite my friends to save them

Many of the men Tom Burgess used to make PSALLO mean to PLUCK A HARP are without exception men who plucked the harp (a disgrace Philip told Alexander) to seduce a young male.  Paul speaks of them in Galatians 5.

Commenting on Ezekiel 33 where Jesus identified the Scribes and Pharisees (professionals) as hypocrites by naming speakers, singers and instrument players:

Vulgate translates, "They turn thy words into a song of their mouths." heart goeth after covetousness--the grand rival to the love of God; therefore called "idolatry,"
     and therefore associated with impure carnal love,
     as both alike transfer the heart's affection from the Creator to the creature.

You have to understand that the ONLY preachers who make it into the INNER CIRCLES have been trained as actors, rhetoricians, singers and their "degree" included just enough Bible taught by false teachers to BURN THEM.

I think the living remnant of the Jews as locals in Jerusalem preopared by John and the disciples of Jesus was the 120 out of the claimed million who were baptized with spirit (wind) and Fire when Jerusalem was consumed.

 

[HRoberson]

The problem with CENI is the people who try to apply the concept without knowing what God actually is saying in Scripture, or who don't know how to interpret written documents appropriately.

That wouldn't be such a big problem if folks only tried to do the applying to themselves.

You're always aloud to make a rule for yourself - and keep quiet about it.

[Johnb]

blit
All this junk you cut and paste from piney.com does not make any sense.  Thry reading the bible for yourself and come to your own conclusions and folks might actually read and attempt to understand your posts.  I for one simply ignore them because they are so far out is space .. any way.

[blituri]

That's ok: I write for my own education: works better without songs and sermons.  Maybe you can find someone denying the CE patternism outside of the present SPAWN of preachers who don't need to know much Bible to get a job if there is a worship team to make coming to church worth while.

Here are some others: maybe if you think of each one as a short story or sound byte for the present disabled generation.

Irenaeus (ca. 150)
Against Heresies 3.1.1
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us,
        which they did at one time proclaim in public,
        and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures,
        to be the ground and pillar of our faith.”

Clement of Alexandria (d. 215)

http://www.piney.com/Clement.Stromata.Seven.html

The Stromata, 7:16
“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits,
       will not desist from the search after truth,
       till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.”

       Heb. 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to him,
       for he who comes to God must believe that he exists,
       and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him.

       For your ignoring, seeking Christ and giving heed to HIS words is the only WORSHIP task.

Gregory of Nyssa (d.ca, 395)
“On the Holy Trinity”, NPNF, p. 327 [not three people]
“Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire,
        and the vote of truth will be given to those
        whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.”

Athanasius (c. 296–373)
Against the Heathen, 1:3
“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.”

Basil the Great (ca.329–379)
On the Holy Spirit, 7.16
“We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers.
       What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.”

Ambrose (340–397 A.D.)
On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102
“For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?”

St. Augustine (354–430)
De unitate ecclesiae, 10
“Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops
       if by chance they err in anything,
       but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God.”

Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274)
Summa Theologiae, Question 1, art. 8
“For our faith rests on the revelation made to the Prophets and Apostles who wrote the canonical books.”

That's what Christ said in prophecy and in person: must feel good to run with a pack which howls over and over that the legalistic, sectarian, patternists church of Christer INVENTED that dogma JUST BECAUSE they are born depraved.

Do they believe it? Maybe not but what does it matter if YOU believel THEM.

Just try to remember enough to know that the next time you hear a BIG GUN FAMOUS AND RICH person say that God and everyone taught the CE and NI for those who would IMPOSE on people and ask: "Were you born with a bar of lye soap in your mouth?"  Why do they do that? Because they know that YOU will believe them.

[blituri]

Where do you think Piney got all of that stuff you cannot PROCURE at any price anywhere else.

[Mere Nick]

The problem with CENI is the people who try to apply the concept without knowing what God actually is saying in Scripture, or who don't know how to interpret written documents appropriately.

That wouldn't be such a big problem if folks only tried to do the applying to themselves.

You're always aloud to make a rule for yourself - and keep quiet about it.

Yep.  However, there are certain folks who use the CENI as a weapon against folks, demanding of them various and sundry confessions beyond that asked of the Ethiopian eunuch and other examples given in Acts.

[Livelysword]

The problem with CENI is the people who try to apply the concept without knowing what God actually is saying in Scripture, or who don't know how to interpret written documents appropriately.

Lively:  The problem is not with CENI, but with the men who lack understanding of God...  CENI is not the problem, such people are the problem...

You use it yet you are unwilling to defend it in a debate format.  Perhaps because it can not be logically defended.

Lively:  I have already defended CENI and have shown by scripture that all the apostles and prophets used it themselves.

[Johnb]

No you have done neither.  All you have done is cut and pasted a bunch of scripture out of context.  You have not defended the underlying principles of CENI.

[blituri]

Hey, Johnny! why don't you cut and post something from the Bible or historic scholars who give YOU the right to SUPPLY something you believe God WOULD have commanded IF he had understood our culture.

Any Bible reader can cut and past from the Bible all day long where God demands the MINIMAL respect of NOT presuming to imporve on His writings.

[marc]

God does understand our culture, but if He had had the NT guys write about it 2,000 years ago, everybody would've thought they were nut cases.

'course you know what Paul said about becoming all things to all men....

[blituri]

The Spirit of Christ spoke through the writing PROPHETS and later through the APOSTLES. Christ did not speak through the king's military Scribes or instrument players: He called the Pharisees and Scribes HYPOCRITES by pointing to slick speakers, singers and instrument players.

YOUR thought leaders use as their PATTERNISM those whom God turned over to worship the starry host BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

YOUR false leaders will NOT speak about the PROPHETS where Christ calls the Civil-Military-Priestly class robbers and parasites. Why should He not when through Samuel He warned that the kings would lead them into slavery and death.

Thus saith the Lord, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah,
        and the great pride of Jerusalem. Jer 13:9
        This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, Commands
        which walk in the imagination of their heart, Where God has been silent.
        and walk after other gods, to serve them,
        and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing. Jer 13:10

For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me
        the whole house of Israel and
        the whole house of Judah, saith the Lord;
        that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory:
        but they would not hear. Jer 13:11 Hear from what, Johnny? from silence?

Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the Lord God of Israel,
        Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee,
        Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine? Jer 13:12

    The wineskin has always been the symbol of lost praise, witchcraft or worse:

    Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; or nebel nay'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty);
            hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): -
            bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol
    Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked
            causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing),
            fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither..

    The "familiar spirit" of the Witch of Endor was:
    Owb (h178) obe; from the same as 1 (appar. through the idea of prattling a father's name);
            prop. a mumble, i. e. a water-skin (from its hollow sound);
            hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar): - bottle, familiar spirit.

    The sounding brass connects with warfare and witchcraft:

    Echeo (g2278) ay-kheh'-o; from 2279; to make a loud noise, i.e. reverberate: - roar, sound.
    Echos (g2279) ay'-khos; of uncert. affin.; a loud or confused noise ("echo"), i.e. roar: fig. a rumor: - fame, sound.

The Church of Christ in the wilderness was to hold a HOLY CONVOCATION: as the synagogue that never changed nor was changed for the ekklesia.  The MODERN church refuses to hear the WORDS as the meaning of "church" and instead "make vocal and instrumental rejoicing' which was excluded and which says WE WILL NOT HEAR YOUR WORDS.

    Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that might be touched,
          and that burned with fire, and to blackness, darkness, tempest,
    And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words;
           which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: Heb.12:19
    Heb. 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying,
         Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
    Heb. 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken,
          as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
     Heb. 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace,
           whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
     Heb. 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the Lord,
        Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land,
        even the kings that sit upon Davids throne,
        and the priests, and the prophets,
        and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness. Jer 13:13
Jer 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together,
        saith the Lord: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Jer 13:15 Hear ye, and give ear; be not proud: for the Lord hath spoken.

Jer 13:16 Give glory to the Lord your God, before he cause darkness,
        and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, [The ACU theme this year]
        and, while ye look for light,
        he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride;
        and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears,
        because the Lords flock is carried away captive. Jer 13:17

Jer 13:18 Say unto the king and to the queen, [praise singers]
        Humble yourselves, sit down:
        for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.

A preacher has absolutely NOTHING BUT the Word of God to "teach as it has been taught." Over and over God associated the INSTRUMENTAL noise as the MARK of people who insist "we will NOT listen to you."  We will make up sermons out of our own IMAGINATION (silence of the word) and like the Scribes and Pharisees it will be SO THAT WE DO NOT HAVE TO TEACH the Word of God.

People make fun of the SILENCE as being PROHIBITIVE because they think that THEIR IMAGINATION speaking about themselves is more DOLLAR EFFECTIVE.  You could not possible invent a more GOD INSULTING concept than to say that your imagination TRUMPS God's words. That is because THEY think that God has been SILENT when God has PLUGED THEIR EARS.  Music is the mark that they are Scribes, Pharisees hypocrits proven by ACTOR-PREACHERS, singers and instrument players. They THINK that God was silent when John called the SORCERERS working for the Babylon mother of harlots.