The fallacy of CENI

[Johnb]

Okimar
I have a cousin that lives at Niceville.  Her husband retired from the AF.  We vist them a couple of times a year and have been looking for a winter home in that area.

[OkiMar]

I don't think you can go wrong with Niceville. That's where I live actually. No one knows where it's at, so I usually just saw Destin. The schools are great; there's very little crime; and the people really are nice.

[Johnb]

Yep.  Niceville is great.  however, we are trying to get closer to the gulf.

[Norton]

CENI is pretty much universally used as a method for interpreting the Bible whether it is labeled CENI or not.  CENI is just as subjective a method of interpretation as any other, if there is any other method.

Arguments over CENI arise when some delusional folks began saying their interpretations are objective rather than subjective because they use CENI and other folks don't. The same delusional folks will tell you that Paul's and James' actions recorded in Acts 21: 17-26 cannot be used as an approved example because Paul and James conspired to commit a sin. Why are Paul's and James' actions interpreted as sinful by these folks? Because Paul's and James' actions go against what they have already made up their minds to believe. So CENI in reality comes down to adopting the commands, examples, and necessary inferences you want to use and throwing out the rest.

[Livelysword]

HR Quote
What is clear is that most of those folks that claim CENI as their authority for concluding wrongly on these topics do normally use CENI inappropriately and inconsistently. CENI in the hands of people that don't grasp the text well from the start can be used to authorize or prohibit whatever they like or don't like.

Evidence for this conclusion? The forty-seven forms of "church of Christ" and the need to eliminate IM-using congregations from "The Directory of Churches of Christ in the United States" based on some assumed requirement to remain true to a denominational mark rather than Scripture

Exactly!  At least you understand that my pointing out inconsistencies and others strong beliefs are simply to show that CENI is not the end all.

Lively:  If you have a mouth and you see CENIS not being properly applied, say something, but do not knock the system Christ himself uses, and which God expects us to use.  Again, the problem is not with CENIS, but with those who apply it wrongly.

Showing where Christ ever used commands in one instance, examples in another, or perhaps even made inferences in other cases does not prove that Christ used the particular "CENI system" we're talking about here.

Showing where specific aspects of a system are used is not proof that the system itself was used.



There may be a recipe for baking a cake that includes the instruction of turning on the oven.  But, when someone is shown to be turning on the oven in a particular case, that does not necessarily mean that the person is following the recipe to bake a cake.  He or she could be turning on the oven to cook a roast.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear. 


But, in the end, the problem with the "CENI system" is not with the commands, examples, and necessary inferences.  The problem is in the general framework and set of assumptions in which the framework is applied. 

Lively:  You have to be kidding me... he uses these things, but he did not use that system?  Sounds like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time...  either he used them, or he did not, and either his using them is an accepted means to interpret, or it is not an accepted way, and he did so wrongly... really, you do not get it both ways...  you do not get him to use it and say it is not accepted...  Did  he use them as a system?


Did he use commandments and tell us to keep them?  Yes
Did he us examples and follow them and tell us to follow examples?  Yes
Did he use Necessary Inference and teach others this is an acceptable way to come to knowledge and understanding of the truth of God?  Yes.
Does He also teach us that the silence of scripture does not authorize and appeal to God's silence?  Yes.

He taught all these things within the NT.  They are all acceptable...  it is what he used as a system for correct understanding of scripture.  The apostles and Elders at Jerusalem in the counsel appealed to these very things to understand the truth of what is and is not acceptable.  You may not like CENIS, but it is given by God...  which part of CENIS do you have a problem with... 

C

E

NI

S

[marc]

Yep.  Niceville is great.  however, we are trying to get closer to the gulf.

Do you know how many times I had to read this post before I stopped taking it allegorically?

[Johnb]

It is wrtten in code Marc.

Niceville is a real place and really is nice.

[rick6886]

C:  I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I Tim 2:8

E: When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. Luke 24:50

NI: they will lift you up in their hands,  so that you will not strike your foot against a stone Luke 4:11

I know everyone who believes CENI is going to be lifting hands this Sunday...

my humble 2 cents

Rick

[blituri]

Firstly, Paul wanted the MEN to lift up HOLY PALMS.
That would prevent the women (or wannabes) from WAVING unholy ARMS.

Know what I mean?

Lifting up means turning up holy palms as in reading from the sacred text. You will see many Jews and Muslims doing that but when they WAVE THEIR ARMS IN THE AIR it is a BAD SIGN.

This would prevent the outbreak of WRATH which is ORGE or an ORGY: when people sing, clap, wave their arms in the air (I am available) and gyrate this is called an ORGY.  If you restrict the women and then a male does it you grasp the MARK.

David lifted up his hands to the Word of God.  If men raised their arms--said a stand up comedian and history--above their shoulders it was an invitation.  I don't know but I would be discrete.

[Livelysword]

C:  I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I Tim 2:8

E: When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. Luke 24:50

NI: they will lift you up in their hands,  so that you will not strike your foot against a stone Luke 4:11

I know everyone who believes CENI is going to be lifting hands this Sunday...

my humble 2 cents

Rick

Lively:  I see it all the time from faithful men of God... and practice it myself... 

Luke 4:1 above is not a necessary inference to lifting up holy hands in praying. 

While the C: is a command.. it is not a command which must be executed every time one is in prayer...

While the E: is an example of prayer, it is not the only example of prayer, other examples of prayer do not show lifting up holy hands.  Other prayers have Jesus on his face in the garden before he is taken...  Matt 26:39

Therefore the command and example is not binding that one must do so every time one prays, and the inference was not a necessary inference concerning lifting up hands in prayer at all...

[Johnb]

Lively
Congradulations!  While in over 30 years with the CoC I only seen one man actually "lift up holy hands" in prayer you properly applied CENI to this command.  That is why I have not used this one against CENI.  However, it does say "everywhere" so while men can pray in other ways they must use this method at least sometimes to be consistant with CENI.

[s1n4m1n]

Lively
Congradulations!  While in over 30 years with the CoC I only seen one man actually "lift up holy hands" in prayer you properly applied CENI to this command.  That is why I have not used this one against CENI.  However, it does say "everywhere" so while men can pray in other ways they must use this method at least sometimes to be consistant with CENI.

The only problem is that the apostle Paul's command is directed to men congregationally, i.e. a worship service. The examples are not congregational but individual.

The argument you were making is entirely consistant with the CENI argument for music. Which, of course, is your point. CENI is essentially a cover for people to do what they want to do and prohibit what they want to prohibit.

[rick6886]

C:  I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I Tim 2:8

E: When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. Luke 24:50

NI: they will lift you up in their hands,  so that you will not strike your foot against a stone Luke 4:11

I know everyone who believes CENI is going to be lifting hands this Sunday...

my humble 2 cents

Rick

Lively:  I see it all the time from faithful men of God... and practice it myself... 

Luke 4:1 above is not a necessary inference to lifting up holy hands in praying. 

While the C: is a command.. it is not a command which must be executed every time one is in prayer...

While the E: is an example of prayer, it is not the only example of prayer, other examples of prayer do not show lifting up holy hands.  Other prayers have Jesus on his face in the garden before he is taken...  Matt 26:39

Therefore the command and example is not binding that one must do so every time one prays, and the inference was not a necessary inference concerning lifting up hands in prayer at all...

So basically commands are arbitrary depending on whether you want to "execute" them

As for example, I could be wrong but is there any NT example for simply bowing your head in prayer which is the custom of the COC. The only references I can find are either lifting your hands in paryer or bowing down completely or on your knees in prayer. The only reference to bowing a head in the NT I can find is when Jesus breathed his last, which is certainly not an act of prayer. So why do people in the COC bow their heads? Where is the CENI?

my humble 2 cents

Rick

[Livelysword]

Lively
Congradulations!  While in over 30 years with the CoC I only seen one man actually "lift up holy hands" in prayer you properly applied CENI to this command.  That is why I have not used this one against CENI.  However, it does say "everywhere" so while men can pray in other ways they must use this method at least sometimes to be consistant with CENI.

Lively:  I would agree that at some point in time, at some place, he must raise holy hands in prayer.  But I think it is up to him to decide when and where he will do that.  It is a freedom which we have and can not bind where and when it must be done.

[Livelysword]

C:  I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I Tim 2:8

E: When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. Luke 24:50

NI: they will lift you up in their hands,  so that you will not strike your foot against a stone Luke 4:11

I know everyone who believes CENI is going to be lifting hands this Sunday...

my humble 2 cents

Rick

Lively:  I see it all the time from faithful men of God... and practice it myself... 

Luke 4:1 above is not a necessary inference to lifting up holy hands in praying. 

While the C: is a command.. it is not a command which must be executed every time one is in prayer...

While the E: is an example of prayer, it is not the only example of prayer, other examples of prayer do not show lifting up holy hands.  Other prayers have Jesus on his face in the garden before he is taken...  Matt 26:39

Therefore the command and example is not binding that one must do so every time one prays, and the inference was not a necessary inference concerning lifting up hands in prayer at all...

So basically commands are arbitrary depending on whether you want to "execute" them

As for example, I could be wrong but is there any NT example for simply bowing your head in prayer which is the custom of the COC. The only references I can find are either lifting your hands in paryer or bowing down completely or on your knees in prayer. The only reference to bowing a head in the NT I can find is when Jesus breathed his last, which is certainly not an act of prayer. So why do people in the COC bow their heads? Where is the CENI?

my humble 2 cents

Rick

Lively:  We are often given liberty as to when and where we decide to fulfill such commands... it is wrong to bind when and where one must fulfill a command unless the command is specific as to when and where it is to be done.