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Offline revc

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The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« on: Thu Jan 06, 2011 - 08:09:18 »
I have never heard anyone use the word "infallible" more than David Hersey.  After reading his posts for years, and having many discussions in which he was involved I have concluded that he really believes his beliefs and practices are without error.  Sure, he will admit to the possibility of error, since he is a man, but I have yet to see him admit to error when he is shown his error.  He just dismisses or "rejects" information detrimental to his teachings and traditions and moves on as though his perfection is intact.

The latest installment of "infallibility" is found in these words from the new version of the PF, which warns all comers that they will be "shown the door" if they do not teach the truth, which means "if you do not agree with our conclusions, you are wrong."

“We must approach error as if all of it will condemn us. That is why you always see me arguing from an infallible position in my discussions. My life of service is reflective of that attitude as well. God knows what is in our hearts and he knows if we are truly seeking to do things His way or our way."

“When confronted with the correctness of something, choose the infallible path.

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The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« on: Thu Jan 06, 2011 - 08:09:18 »

Offline pointmade

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jan 06, 2011 - 11:33:59 »
revc: "I have never heard anyone use the word "infallible" more than David Hersey. 

I have read many of Mr. Hersey's posts, but have never formed the opinion that he believes he is "infallible".

I believe each man who studies the Scripture is influenced by hermeneutics and exegesis (II Peter 3:15,16; II Tim. 2:15).
Exegesis is the scientific determination of the meaning of the text as it stands in its total context. Hermeneutics informs and guides exegesis.

"Infallibility" in the RCC theory of papal authority falls far short of hermeneutics and exposition. Exposition is the revelant and dynamic proclamation of that which is learned through exegesis, guided by sound principle of hermeneutics. In this sense, hermeneutics is an art as well as a science.

Hermeneutics/interpretation guides the process by which divine message revealed to an ancient world are applied and expounded to the modern world.

I communicate with the Catholics on the Catholic forum. They believe their pope is infallible.
I asked a man who goes by Chestertonrules if he believed the pope was guided by "illumination"? He said the Catholic Church did not teach illumination.
Sure they do! The pope and Church councils of the RCC believe they are moved by God through the function of the Holy Spirit to illumine the mind and witnesses to the veracity of the divine verities.

Illumination is taught in most Protestant churches where a man believes he has been moved by the Spirit  in regeneration i.e., Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Knox, Billy Sunday, Graham etc.  Men, who  believe they are able to understand Scriptures, and trusts the Holy Spirit to illumine their mind in interpreting are found in many camps.
How many times have you heart men say, "the Lord has spoken to my heart, let me tell you what He has revealed"?
I do not get illumination from Mr. Hersey's posts. Like all of us who put the shovel into the Word of God. The deeper we dig the richer the returns.

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jan 06, 2011 - 11:33:59 »

Offline Norton

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jan 06, 2011 - 14:31:10 »
If David Hershey used the word "infallible", he probablly meant that he takes extreme caution to take the safe course in his interpretation of the Bible. Its very simple, if the Bible doesn't command it, it shouldn't be done. If the Bible commands it, make every effort to do it. Uh huh.

blituri

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jan 06, 2011 - 20:06:00 »
You can be infallible if you obey the PATTERNISM of CENI ordained by Christ for the Church in the wilderness.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
        them that preach him,
        being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded:
        for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away
        in the reading of the old testament;
        which vail is done away in Christ.
2Cor. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cor. 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit:
      and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
       are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
       even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2Pet. 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
       whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, (the only worship concept)
       as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
       until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 
2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first,
       that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

You are BOUND to PREACH the Word by READING the Word, explaining any misunderstanding and exhorting people to obey it. That is the CENI everyone hates.

Paul commanded "that which is written for our learning" in Romans 15.  Therefore we CAN be infallible and can all "speak the same things" by speaking that which is written.

http://www.piney.com/CENI.Commands.Examples.Necessary.Inferences.html

So, our infallible friend FAILED when he thought that Christ gave him the authority to ENHANCE the Word

 

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jan 06, 2011 - 20:06:00 »

Offline revc

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jan 07, 2011 - 07:27:43 »
revc: "I have never heard anyone use the word "infallible" more than David Hersey. 

I have read many of Mr. Hersey's posts, but have never formed the opinion that he believes he is "infallible".

I believe each man who studies the Scripture is influenced by hermeneutics and exegesis (II Peter 3:15,16; II Tim. 2:15).
Exegesis is the scientific determination of the meaning of the text as it stands in its total context. Hermeneutics informs and guides exegesis.

"Infallibility" in the RCC theory of papal authority falls far short of hermeneutics and exposition. Exposition is the revelant and dynamic proclamation of that which is learned through exegesis, guided by sound principle of hermeneutics. In this sense, hermeneutics is an art as well as a science.

Hermeneutics/interpretation guides the process by which divine message revealed to an ancient world are applied and expounded to the modern world.

I communicate with the Catholics on the Catholic forum. They believe their pope is infallible.
I asked a man who goes by Chestertonrules if he believed the pope was guided by "illumination"? He said the Catholic Church did not teach illumination.
Sure they do! The pope and Church councils of the RCC believe they are moved by God through the function of the Holy Spirit to illumine the mind and witnesses to the veracity of the divine verities.

Illumination is taught in most Protestant churches where a man believes he has been moved by the Spirit  in regeneration i.e., Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Knox, Billy Sunday, Graham etc.  Men, who  believe they are able to understand Scriptures, and trusts the Holy Spirit to illumine their mind in interpreting are found in many camps.
How many times have you heart men say, "the Lord has spoken to my heart, let me tell you what He has revealed"?
I do not get illumination from Mr. Hersey's posts. Like all of us who put the shovel into the Word of God. The deeper we dig the richer the returns.


I'm quite sure Hersey would deny claiming to be infallible, and I think I said that in the first paragraph.  BUT, how can any man claim his positions to be infallible, his life of service to be infallible, and that we need to choose the infallible path, while at the same time being fallible?  How can someone fallible do all of this infallible stuff?  I have publicly confronted Hersey with his claims and tendencies to place himself in this absurd position.  I am not the only one who has noted this, either.  Hersey just shrugs off all efforts to point out his errors, denies all data, tells everyone they are wrong, and moves on, all the while oblivious to his misuse of scripture, horribly defective logic and constant self-contradiction.  Maybe you never formed the opinion Hersey thinks he is infallible, but I have yet to see him admit he was wrong despite overwhelming evidence.  Only someone who thinks he is right about everything is comfortable in that condition.  I think Hersey thinks he CAN be wrong -- he just doesn't think he is.

Tod

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #4 on: Fri Jan 07, 2011 - 07:27:43 »



Offline revc

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #5 on: Fri Jan 07, 2011 - 07:35:00 »
If David Hershey used the word "infallible", he probablly meant that he takes extreme caution to take the safe course in his interpretation of the Bible. Its very simple, if the Bible doesn't command it, it shouldn't be done. If the Bible commands it, make every effort to do it. Uh huh.

That's what a normal person would actually say, "I try to take the safest position."  Who, in their right mind, uses the concept of infallibility to describe his positions, service, and choices?  That's more than a mistake of wording, it betrays a mindset. 

Hersey would not agree with your "simple" statement, either.  He believes that there are things we must do that the Bible does not command.  His basis for this is that if the elders command something the Bible does not command Hebrews 13:17 obligates us to follow their additions.  Then he will say men are not allowed to add to the scriptures or make commands where God did not.  Even a blind man can see the problem with this infallible position.

Tod

Offline revc

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #6 on: Fri Jan 07, 2011 - 07:50:14 »
You can be infallible if you obey the PATTERNISM of CENI ordained by Christ for the Church in the wilderness.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city
        them that preach him,
        being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded:
        for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away
        in the reading of the old testament;
        which vail is done away in Christ.
2Cor. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cor. 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit:
      and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
       are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
       even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2Pet. 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
       whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, (the only worship concept)
       as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
       until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 
2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first,
       that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

You are BOUND to PREACH the Word by READING the Word, explaining any misunderstanding and exhorting people to obey it. That is the CENI everyone hates.

Paul commanded "that which is written for our learning" in Romans 15.  Therefore we CAN be infallible and can all "speak the same things" by speaking that which is written.

http://www.piney.com/CENI.Commands.Examples.Necessary.Inferences.html

So, our infallible friend FAILED when he thought that Christ gave him the authority to ENHANCE the Word



Blit,

Hersey is on record here that he does not "ascribe" to CENI.  In an email he told me CENI is not valid.  Even a casual reading of his posts on the PF reveals that he does indeed employ CENI, albeit in a flawed way, to be sure. 

Hersey condemned singing during communion on two bases, 1) we may not mix two items of worship, and 2) there is no command or example of singing during communion.

This led to a firestorm of discussion where Hersey's position was exposed as absurd and inconsistent by several respondents.  None of the exposure moved Hersey.  In his mind his infallible position stood intact.  #2) above was shown to involve him in at least three problematic positions, yet he was unmoved. 

If you need more proof of Hersey's infallible mindset just reread the information I posted here on 1 Cor. 16 and Hersey's ridiculous and fallible position on that text.  He has yet to acknowledge his error on that.  If infallible means "dishonest", then I agree wholeheartedly that David Hersey is, indeed, infallible.

Tod

Offline pointmade

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #7 on: Fri Jan 07, 2011 - 08:14:07 »
Not sure I follow you Ken...
You have quoted II Corinthians 3:14-18
I would go back to verse 6 and pick up context.

To me, Paul is saying that the ministration of death, the old covenant, or letter kills.  
It is the new testament, or the spirit of life that "transforms" men to life.
Jesus causes the Old Testament to make sense. "The vail is taken away."

You say, "You are BOUND to PREACH the Word by READING the Word, explaining any misunderstanding and exhorting people to obey it. That is the CENI everyone hates."

No, I do not believe "everyone hates it." If we do not have "liberty" in the new testament let us remove verse 17 of II Cor. 3.
Comes down to interpretation. Anyone can read Romans 15:26 and find that the scriptures of the prophets were made know to all nations for the obedience of faith. But, not everyone has your aptitude. Paul has also written, "If any man preach anyother gospel unto you let him go to hell,"

I know men and women who have carried the gospel into South East Asia, who have had to learn approximately six languages and train men of Burma, Bangladesh and surrounding areas to teach.  Brother, they are in the wilderness. Malaria has caused the death of many missionaries. yet they have established the church of Christ among the people  www.asiachristianservices.org. Are they "infallible?

blituri

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #8 on: Sat Jan 08, 2011 - 15:24:33 »
I'm not sure what point you are making. infallible has nothing to do with preachers in a foreign land: infallible has to do with the WORD.  The only way to be INFALLIBLE is that everyone SPEAK THE SAME THINGS which means SPEAK THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN (Rom 15 and the NOT-musical passages.)

2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit:
      and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

No: all you are authorized to do is to READ it and let the words stand. The NAME of Father, Son, and Spirit (thought, breath, word) is Jesus Christ.

The NAME of the another COMFORTER (paraklētos)

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, (paraklētos)
        that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,
      we have an advocate (paraklētos) with the Father,
      Jesus Christ the righteous:

You don't know any preachers who would read that whole chapter in context without "PRIVATE INTERPRETATION" which means FURTHER EXPOUNDING.  If you and most say that the Lord IS NOT that Spirit then you flunked the command to READ or SPEAK the Word.

MY point didn't need the whole chapter.

The ONLY way to deliver the infallible Word is:

   If you can hallucinate "singing" as a ritual which didn't happen until 373 in the elevated speaking of SELF-COMPOSED poetry:  To be infallible cannot happen if you deliberately violate the COMMANDED RESOURCE and the PRESENTATION METHOD.

In Romans 15 where SELF-pleasure outlaws all of the performing arts, and commands using "one mind and one mouth" to deliver "that which is written." Paul calls that "Scripture." If you are in the jungle you MUST have a valid translation: you cannot invent doctrine.

Eph. 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him,
         and have been taught by him,
         as the truth is in Jesus: that's the Spirit OF truth
Col. 2:7 Rooted and built up in him,
       and stablished in the faith,
       as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
2Th. 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast,
       and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
       whether by word, or our epistle.

1Tim. 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught,
        that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers,
        specially they of the circumcision

The word CONVINCE does not mean to sermonize and counsel endlesslly but to REFUTE HIM and DISQUALIFY him.  If he is a professional GAINSAYER you are not going to "save him."

In the Qahal or Synagogue or Ekklesia words which define the ASSEMBLY no one was permitted to make up the subject material to be presented: that came from a higher authority. If anyone tries to sing with our without instruments in either they would be hurt really bad.  Rhetoricians occassionaly got loose in the Greek ekklesia to present their own veiws but were all frepudiated.

The Campbells defined:

Church is A School of Christ (that's what disciples of Christ do--ONLY)
Worship is reading and musing the Word: (that's what diciples of Christ do)


Offline pointmade

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jan 10, 2011 - 11:36:25 »
Ken: "MY point didn't need the whole chapter."

"You don't know any preachers who would read that whole chapter in context without "PRIVATE INTERPRETATION" which means FURTHER EXPOUNDING.  If you and most say that the Lord IS NOT that Spirit then you flunked the command to READ or SPEAK the Word."

First, John 14:16 is not spoken to you. Were you an eye witness (John 15:27)? Say "no" and simply the discourse! If you believe you have been so honored try on John 14:14 and let's see you credentials!

You come up with: "The NAME of the another COMFORTER (paraklētos)."
No Ken! the word "Comforter" is a two bit word the Calvinist translators have come up with in their interpretation of Spirit.
Go to 1 John 2:1 and see how John uses the word "advovate."  Advocate or "word giver" is the correct exegesis in John 14:16.

John, Chapter's 13-16  is specifically spoken to men who would carry out His commandments (Acts 1:2).  Turn to Matthew10:19-20 and you will read why He is the "Advocate." Does Jesus not say  that He will be speaking through these men whom He had "called"? I do not see "Ken" listed in Mat. 10:1-4).

So, Ken....you have flunked Jesus' discourse in the upper room! If you would spend more time in the Word and get out of building hedges around the entrance of the Church with your musical flute the Lord's kingdom would be the better for it!

You say: "MY point didn't need the whole chapter.".....No Ken! You need the whole chapter and then some! Try to exegesis Matthew 25:31-46 and not come up with salvation by works "without the whole text." You do understand Jesus' parable of the talents beginning with verse 14? 

Please, drop your dancing flute and get back with me on why the "righteous sheep" of verses 37-39 had not known they had been benevolent to the Lord and yet, would "inherit the kingdom," and why the "unrighteous goats" were going to hell because they had not known either (v.44).
The Calvinist calls this "election of the saints." What do you call it Ken? You, no doubt, will not need the "whole chapter" to explain since the "Comforter" will be speaking through you..lol....



blituri

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jan 10, 2011 - 15:20:42 »
First, John 14:16 is not spoken to you. Were you an eye witness (John 15:27)? Say "no" and simply the discourse! If you believe you have been so honored try on John 14:14 and let's see you credentials!

Yes, I know that it was not written to me: the POINT is that the another parakletos is made clear when Jesus said I WILL COME TO YOU.  Nor was He speaking of preachers or singers as MEDIATORS of that Word. The point is that the Spirit OF Christ is the Spirit WHICH BELONGS TO CHRIST: it is not another PEOPLE.

I didn't say that He was speaking to me: that is why I repeat that anyone who speaks beyond the prophets by Christ and the prophecies made more perfect to EYE and EAR witnesses is called by Peter A FALSE TEACHER.  If you private interpret the word means FURTHER EXPOUND. Christ made the church perfectly defined especially in Isaiah 55 where He commanded us NOT to spend our bread money on the FREE WATER of the WORD.

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.55.html

In Isaiah 58 Christ commanded us NOT to seek our own pleasure (no music goes beyond human pleasure) NOR speak our own words.  Now, if you CHARGE for the free word you violate the law also of SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS.

http://www.piney.com/Isaiah.58.html

In Isaiah 58 he made it PERFECTLY clear that the Intercessor will NOT be a third member of a family of Gods.

Is. 59:16 And he saw that there was no man,
       and wondered that there was no intercessor:
           (Occurro concilio, too meet, cure, relieve, remedy, meet with words)
       therefore his arm brought salvation unto him;
          (Bracchium what moves when God speaks)
       and his righteousness, it sustained him.

God's ARM is not another "people" and His "Word" is not another people.

Is. 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate,
       and an helmet of salvation upon his head;
       and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
       and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

You come up with: "The NAME of the another COMFORTER (paraklētos)."

No Ken! the word "Comforter" is a two bit word the Calvinist translators have come up with in their interpretation of Spirit.


The word COMFORTER is used by the earliest writers who used TRIAS but never hallucinated a "family of gods."

John 14:16KJV And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:16WEB I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor,a that he may be with you forever,—
John 14:16ASV And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
John 14:16YNG and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you — to the age;
John 14:16NEG Then36 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate37 to be with you forever–
John 14:16 Vulgate I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever, -

Another or allos does not mean a DIFFERENT PERSON but in a different form. Both Comforter and Intercessor is the same word.

Parakleteuo ast as an advocate or intercessor

para-klētos , on, A. called to one's aid, in a court of justice : as Subst., legal assistant, advocate, D.19.1, Lycurg. Fr.102, etc.
2. summoned, “douloi

blituri

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jan 10, 2011 - 15:47:57 »
Please, drop your dancing flute and get back with me on why the "righteous sheep" of verses 37-39 had not known they had been benevolent to the Lord and yet, would "inherit the kingdom," and why the "unrighteous goats" were going to hell because they had not known either (v.44).

The Calvinist calls this "election of the saints." What do you call it Ken? You, no doubt, will not need the "whole chapter" to explain since the "Comforter" will be speaking through you..lol...


If you PREACH the Word by READING the Word we won't have any problem, will we.  Matthew 25 is your problem since it has nothing to do with the demand to teach "that which has been written for our learning" without "private interpretation" meaning '"further expounding" or corrupting the Word which means "selling learning at retail" and also "adultery." I will tell you (from reading 101aaa)what Jesus thought about the Musical Worship Teams.

Mk 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Matthew 9:23 And when Jesus came into the rulers house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,

        Auletes (g834) ow-lay-tace'; from 832; a flute- player: - minstrel, piper.
        Aoidos A. singer, minstrel, bard, 3. enchanter, chrêsmôn aoidos,
                III. = Eunouchos,
                       (All religious musicians were eunuchs Gal 5)
                Hsch.; cf. doidos. crow as cocks, hoot as owls, twang, of the bow-string,
                vie with one in singing,

        Alal-azô , fut. -axomai v.l. in E.Ba.593, A. -: (formed from the cry alalai): --raise the war-cry,,
                nikên alalazein shout the shout of victory, S.Ant.133.       
                2. generally, cry, shout aloud, Pi.l.c., E.El.855; esp. in orgiastic rites,
                A.Fr.57; of Bacchus and Bacchae,

        II. rarely also of other sounds than the voice, sound loudly, psalmos d' alalazei A.Fr.57 ;
         kumbalon alalazon 1 Ep.Cor.13.1

Mk 5:40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.

JESUS CAST THEM OUT LIKE DUNG.

        Ekballo (g1544) ek-bal'-lo; from 1537 and 906; to eject (lit. or fig.): -
        bring forth, cast (forth, out),
        drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).

        Ballo (g906) bal'-lo; a prim. verb; to throw (in various applications,
        more or less violent or intense: -
        arise, cast (out), * dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down),
        thrust. Comp. 4496.

        koprion , to, = kopros,
        2. generally, dirt, filth, BGU1115.50 (i B. C.); esp.
         in Magic, dirt taken from spot where a corpse has lain,

        kopros 1
        I. dung, ordure, manure, Hom., Hdt., etc.
        II. a farm-yard, home-stead, Hom.

And that's all I'm going to say about that.  In Revelation 18 they are called SORCERERS doomed for the Lake of Fire which was prepared for the wind, string and percussion people by Christ in Isaiah 30


Offline pointmade

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jan 11, 2011 - 08:52:33 »
Ken; "If you PREACH the Word by READING the Word we won't have any problem, will we.  Matthew 25 is your problem since it has nothing to do with the demand to teach "that which has been written for our learning" without "private interpretation" meaning '"further expounding" or corrupting the Word which means "selling learning at retail" and also "adultery." I will tell you (from reading 101aaa)what Jesus thought about the Musical Worship Teams."

Nope, I do not have any problem with Matthew 25.  I can interpret the text without overloading it with dancing flutes and minstrels.

You are the one who skirts around the axioms of hermeneutics to have Scripture support a subjective conviction.
You have made a private interpretation of Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 to build a hedge around the gate to the kingdom.
You have Israel's party spirit in the camp of the redeemed.

The Anti church of Christ believes that the verb "psallo" which means to twitch, twang, pluck, strike is noted.
English dictionaries, Greek lexicons provide this invaluable evidence, and in addition supply the instrument that is twitched, plucked or struck.

Fact: M.C. Kurfees contended that the verb "psallo" changed its meaning near the beginning of the New Testament era.
This contension was built upon assumption only. What Mr. Kurfess assumed is what he did not prove and those of the non-instrumental persuasion are still faced with this impossible task today.   

Like the Jews who took an obscure verse in Exodus 23:19 ("Thou shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk") and began the "Kosher" system  of segregating milk and meat products. The Jews, now have become so extream in their hedging of the law they build two separate kitchens to separate the utensils and have a Rabbi come in to verify the fact.

This has become the Anti's mentality of instruments....You have become "Kosher,"
Have you boiled a kid in its mother's milk Ken?

Yes, you have! you have taken the verb "psallo" and substituted the "heart" for the "harp."
Where is the biblical authority for this substitution?
Authentic evidence is unavailable to prove that the heart is an instrument to be "twitched," "plucked" or "twanged"!
Is not assumption, on other matters, the foundation of Denominationalism?

You have become Calvinistic in mentality to substitute a word to change a meaning of the text.
God says that we are saved by faith (Rom. 5:1; Gal. 5:6).
Denominationalists ADD the word ONLY, formulating the doctrine of "faith only" (Rev. 22:18; II John verse 9).

When God says "sing" and men ADD the word ONLY, formulating the doctrine of "sing only" what is the difference?
A false premise produces the same conclusion.
You have "boiled" Ephesians 5;19 and Colossians 3:16 into Denomionationalism.
 

blituri

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #13 on: Tue Jan 11, 2011 - 12:29:23 »
Yes, you have! you have taken the verb "psallo" and substituted the "heart" for the "harp." Where is the biblical authority for this substitution?

Notice Paul's use of parallel:

Eph. 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise,
        but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
Eph. 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess;
         but be filled with the Spirit;
         (Spirit is the Word of Christ John 6:63; Col 3 parallel)

   1.  You FILL UP with the WILL OF CHRIST before you can TEACH and ADMONISH
   2. The Will of Christ IS Spirit and Life.
   3. Christ repudiated instruments in all of the prophets.
   4. Jesus didn't command you to SING to one another.
   5. Therefore, if you sing Twila Paris with instruments you DESPISE the Will of Christ.
   6. Christ in Jeremiah 23 calls that BLASPHEMY.

Now, if you have followed the absolute "pattern" up to this point you WILL NOT substitute your OWN WILL for that of Christ. That is the MARK while the BEAST or Theiron in Revelation is "A new style of song or drama."

Eph. 5:19 Speaking to yourselves
       in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
       singing and making melody
       IN YOUR HEART to the Lord;

   1.  In Romans 15 that is "what is written for our learning" or "Scripture."
   2. Self-Pleasure outlaws all of the scenic or performing arts.
   3. In Colossians 3 that is the Word of Christ.
   4. Psalms, hymns and spirit songs are TYPES of POETRY in the BOOK of Psalms.
   5. Paul would recognize only 57 in that BOOK of Psalms as Mizmors.
   6. Only 50 of these were not exclusive of some clergy or function:
   7. the Hallels were delivered "as a schoolboy reading the hallels."
   8. None of the 50 INCLUDE and instrument:
   9. Psallo NEVER includes an instrument.
  10. NONE of the Psalms is METRICAL: you CANNOT sing the Word of God.
  11. Psallo is used to mean PLUCK the harp string it means PLUCK ONLY.
  12. Music from mystery by definition means "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter."

There are dozens of words similar to psallo.
    They are all derived from a violent smiting of someone or some things.
    And then used of SMITING a musical instrument.
    This is ALWAYS the mark of the effeminate (Re David's Naked Dance)
    Smiting means smiting and not "smiting with a harp."

    *  SPEAKING (as in the Logos) is defined as the OPPOSITE of poetry or music.
    * Even Simple Simon knows that you cannot SPEAK and SING at the same time.
    * Speaking is for EDIFICATION (Education) and Edifying one another with Scripture (Rom 15)
 
   1. SingING and makING are present participles and occur at the same PLACE.
   2. Singing and Making are IN THE HEART. 
        This preposition says WHERE the singing and melody is to take place.
   3. It must take place IN THE SPIRIT because in John 4 that
      is the ONLY place God looks for your worship as you give heed to the WORD:
      the Spirit OF TRUTH.
   4. Paul said that the Christians worshipped IN THE SPIRIT in contrast to IN THE FLESH.
       That was to EXCLUDE the Dogs or Catamites who were the old style praise singers. Phil 3

Authentic evidence is unavailable to prove that the heart is an instrument to be "twitched," "plucked" or "twanged"! Is not assumption, on other matters, the foundation of Denominationalism?

Psallo means ONLY "To pluck or smite a string with your FINGERS and NEVER with a plectrum. You ADD (no Calvinist did that) the "guitar pick" which violated THE some meaning of psallo. You cannot "psallo" a flute, drum, piano, or or ANY other musical instrument. Psallo EXCLUDES everything but what you can do with your bare FINGERS.  Psallo is NEVER used meaning to "pluck a harp." It just means PLUCK or SMITE.  You MUST and Scripture and all other literature DEFINE what is to be plucked.  Melody IN the heart is therefore used in a figurative sense. ALL recorded liturature defined the THING TO BE PLUCKED. In the case of male harp pluckers it includes the youth being seduced by an older male.

Again: Lexicons do NOT define words: they show HOW the word is used in the literature. Firstly it means to pluck the BOW STRING which is a musical instrument. In the examples where we find "psallo a harp" it is ALWAYS in connection with religious musicians ALWAYS effeminate or gender compromised.

You are preaching based on THE LAW OF SILENCE: because you don't know of any evidence that does not mean that scholars cannot find LOADS of proof:

The man who was dying blessed me; I made the widow's heart sing. Jb.29:13

So my heart laments for Moab like a flute;
it laments like a flute for the men of Kir Hareseth. The wealth they acquired is gone. Je.48:36

My heart laments for Moab like a harp,
my inmost being for Kir Hareseth. Is.16:11

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.Lu.1:47

Therefore did my heart rejoice, (external)
                         and my tongue was glad; (external)
                         moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Ac.2:26

The man who was dying blessed me; I made the widow's heart sing. Jb.29:13

My heart laments for Moab like a harp,
my inmost being for Kir Hareseth. Is.16:11

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.Lu.1:47

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, (internal)
                            and said,                     (external)
I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the WISE and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. Lu.10:21


The WISE from whom God HIDES these things are SOPHISTS: Sophists are trained and skilled religious teknokrats such as sermonizers, singers, guitar players.  Christ in Ezekiel 33 called them HYPOCRITES.  John in Revelation 18 called them SORCERERS. Jesus in Isaiah 30 and John in Revelation says they have a PREPARED PLACE to be cast alive into the lake of fire.

The Jewish translators of the LXX used the Greek psallo because it is PRIMARILY a "making war" word.  Secondly, it is "shooting forth love arrows" as the universal mark of Apollo's (Abaddon, Apollyon) always-gender confused religious musicians. Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon) is the father of musical harmony and of homosexual worship rituals.

    The bowstring touch'd her breast, so strong she drew;
    Whizzing in air the fatal arrow flew.
    At once the twanging bow and sounding dart  (toxērei psalmō toxeusas.)
    The traitor heard, and felt the point within his heart.

    Thy scarlet-tinctured foot? or from my bow
    The lyre of Phoebus [Apollo, Apollyon] to thy notes attuned
    Will not protect thee; farther stretch thy wings;

    Go, wanton, skim along the Delian lake, 
    Or wilt thou steep thy melody in blood.


Plautus, Curculio CAPPADOX My spleen is killing me, my reins are in torment, my lungs are being torn asunder, my liver is being tortured, my heart-strings are giving way, all my intestines are in pain.

Maybe you will read Ephesians and see that Paul said "make melody IN THE HEART."
YOU add when you say that it means MAKE MELODY WITH A HARP.

No one who imagines that music has a role to play in the ekklesia or synagogue simply DOES NOT KNOW the meaning of DISCIPLE of Christ (only) or the School of the Word. Can you BE a disciple of Christ if you replace the Word of Christ with sermons and songs out of human imagination that they can ENHANCE the Word of Christ, Christ calls you a blasphemer of the Spirit of Christ.

It is further blasphemy against the Spirit of Christ to preach that He was so ignorant that He didn't know that there are NUMEROUS COMPLEX WORDS which would be used--even by Simple Simon--if they wanted someone to make melody with a HARP.



Offline pointmade

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jan 11, 2011 - 18:04:37 »
Ken, once again you have build your argument upon the verb "psallo."

In sound hermeneutics, the etymological meaning of a word must give place to the current established usage.
to determine the usage of a word, consult its occurrences in literature, and depend most on those nearest the passage in point of context, authorship, date and character of the composition.

Look at Isaiah 7:14 as an example of a meaning grounded in etymology: "Immanuel"
Look at the examples of drift by usage: angel, spirit, psallo, hades. flesh.

We have discused the word "Comforter" John 16:7. The word appears as "paraclete" (John 16:7) and in 1 John 2:1 as "Advocate."
Philo uses the word paraclete as "Intercessor." (De Josepho, c 40, 2. 75).
In the Classical Greek: it is used as "attorney at law."

You build you argument upon sand that instrumental music is an abomination to the Lord
You have "boiled the kid in its mothers milk." (Ex. 23:19).


blituri

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Re: The infallible Mr. Hersey.
« Reply #15 on: Wed Jan 12, 2011 - 14:36:44 »
In sound hermeneutics, the etymological meaning of a word must give place to the current established usage.

to determine the usage of a word, consult its occurrences in literature, and depend most on those nearest the passage in point of context, authorship, date and character of the composition.


Not so: you are bound to understand what the WRITER had in mind when they wrote where context counts.

Words CANNOT be defined: you can only find where the word is used in the literature of the time. No church father, founder of denomination or Bible version translates it PLAY A HARP.

False: you are bound to find in the Bible or in any recorded literature where psallo MEANS to "Play A Harp."

Remember: I insist that you find ONE WORD translated to PLAY A HARP.

I can show you one COMPOUND word to mean PLAY AN INSTRUMENT for EVERY type of instrument.