The knowledge of salvation is by the remission of sins...

[Livelysword]

Lively: Isn't it time we thought on the knowledge of salvation that was sent to the people of God... how he wanted them to be saved?? When John the baptist came, he came to bring unto the people of God the knowledge of salvation.... John came preaching the kingdom and how to enter into it... John came preaching baptism for the remission of sins... It is also what Jesus commissioned his apostles to teach in his name... and it is the way to salvation today...
Luk 1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
Luk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Luk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
Luk 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luk 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways [shall be] made smooth;
Luk 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

[Lee Freeman]

Livelysword, scripture mentions a lot more than just remission of sins as connected to baptism, for example: The gift of the Holy Spirit; the pledge of a good conscience before God; dying to sin; being clothed with Christ; being buried with Christ and raised to walk in newness of life; etc. Yes, remission of sins is conferred at baptism, but so are all of these other blessings. Asuming you are arguing that a conscious knowledge of remission is required for one's baptism to be valid,  to be logically consistent, if one must know about the remission of sins for one's baptism to be valid, one must also know about all of these other blessings. But scripture nowhere teaches this. It teaches baptism as a faith-response to belief in Jesus. The majority consensus of in the Church of Christ until the 1960s or so was that a baptism done for any (or all) of the above reasons, or simply to obey God, was a valid. baptism.

Pax.

[lancelot]

Livelysword, scripture mentions a lot more than just remission of sins as connected to baptism, for example: The gift of the Holy Spirit; the pledge of a good conscience before God; dying to sin; being clothed with Christ; being buried with Christ and raised to walk in newness of life; etc. Yes, remission of sins is conferred at baptism, but so are all of these other blessings. Asuming you are arguing that a conscious knowledge of remission is required for one's baptism to be valid,  to be logically consistent, if one must know about the remission of sins for one's baptism to be valid, one must also know about all of these other blessings. But scripture nowhere teaches this. It teaches baptism as a faith-response to belief in Jesus. The majority consensus of in the Church of Christ until the 1960s or so was that a baptism done for any (or all) of the above reasons, or simply to obey God, was a valid. baptism.

Pax.

I don't think he's saying that one must know all there is about baptism in order for it to be valid.  BUT, since one must preach the truth, preach the gospel, sow the seed that is the word of God, etc, and that includes teaching the truth about baptism, one will know that baptism is when one is saved by the blood of Jesus.  The preaching of the truth insures that the one being taught will know what to do to be saved and that includes knowledge about the purpose of baptism.

Lancelot

[Livelysword]

Livelysword, scripture mentions a lot more than just remission of sins as connected to baptism, for example: The gift of the Holy Spirit; the pledge of a good conscience before God; dying to sin; being clothed with Christ; being buried with Christ and raised to walk in newness of life; etc. Yes, remission of sins is conferred at baptism, but so are all of these other blessings. Asuming you are arguing that a conscious knowledge of remission is required for one's baptism to be valid,  to be logically consistent, if one must know about the remission of sins for one's baptism to be valid, one must also know about all of these other blessings. But scripture nowhere teaches this. It teaches baptism as a faith-response to belief in Jesus. The majority consensus of in the Church of Christ until the 1960s or so was that a baptism done for any (or all) of the above reasons, or simply to obey God, was a valid. baptism.

Pax.

Lively:  Col 2:12-13 teaches one is to have faith of the operation of God to take away their sins... that is foreknowledge and understanding that in baptism God is taking away our sins... it is an absolute must...  one has to understand that God is taking away their sins in baptism...  you can not have faith of an operation of God to take away your sins and not know that in baptism God is taking away your sins...   that in baptism we are quickened and made alive in Christ...

I understand other things take place in baptism... that we are crucified with Christ in baptism, buried with Christ in baptism, and raised to walk in newness of life... and one should understand these things... that when he is baptized into Christ, that he puts on Christ... is added to the body of Christ which is the church and the kingdom of Christ... these things need to be taught to those who are seeking to have salvation...  one is never added to the denominations we see in this world... they are not the church Christ built and died for...  they are not his body... as they refuse to obey the gospel to be a part of his body...


Look at the following verses and tell us if one has to know these things according to what the verses state...


Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


Either we are to have faith of the operation of God to take away our sins in baptism, or it is not necessary to have faith in the operation of God to take away our sins in baptism... which is it?


Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Either we are to know this, or it is not important that we know this.. either we are to know the old man is crucified, or it is not important for us to know that we are crucified with Christ in baptism... which is it?  While I think one can understand some of this after one is baptized... I do not believe one can have faith of the operation of God to take away sins after baptism for that faith to be effected for God to take away sins in baptism...  I believe it is an absolute must that one believes his sins are being washed away in baptism... why would Paul be told to arise and be baptized and have his sins washed away if he was not to understand that is the purpose of baptism, to wash away his sins?  Baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...  if we are not understanding we are being resurrected together with Christ in baptism, then how can we have the answer of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...  in baptism we are petitioning God for a good conscience by the resurrection of Jesus Christ...


What is the consequence of stating one does not have to have faith of the operation of God in baptism to take away their sins?  It takes away the purpose of baptism to be for the forgiveness of sins...  so at what point then does one come to understand his sins are forgiven him?  Is he still dead in his sins after baptism then?  Are we then raised together with Christ still dead in our sins?


Also, at some point one has to be taught being baptized into Christ to put on Christ... that one is added to the body of Christ... that one is added to the church of Christ... that one is added to his kingdom...  when would we want to make sure they understand such things?  The first day, or perhaps years down the line?  I prefer to teach these things prior to their being baptized... that when the person comes up out of the water... he knows he is in Christ... is a member of his body and his flesh and in his church and kingdom...  remember, scripture states that the knowledge of salvation is by the remission of sins...  if someone does not have knowledge that their sins are taken away, how can they have knowledge of salvation of their souls...

[Livelysword]

Livelysword, scripture mentions a lot more than just remission of sins as connected to baptism, for example: The gift of the Holy Spirit; the pledge of a good conscience before God; dying to sin; being clothed with Christ; being buried with Christ and raised to walk in newness of life; etc. Yes, remission of sins is conferred at baptism, but so are all of these other blessings. Asuming you are arguing that a conscious knowledge of remission is required for one's baptism to be valid,  to be logically consistent, if one must know about the remission of sins for one's baptism to be valid, one must also know about all of these other blessings. But scripture nowhere teaches this. It teaches baptism as a faith-response to belief in Jesus. The majority consensus of in the Church of Christ until the 1960s or so was that a baptism done for any (or all) of the above reasons, or simply to obey God, was a valid. baptism.

Pax.

I don't think he's saying that one must know all there is about baptism in order for it to be valid.  BUT, since one must preach the truth, preach the gospel, sow the seed that is the word of God, etc, and that includes teaching the truth about baptism, one will know that baptism is when one is saved by the blood of Jesus.  The preaching of the truth insures that the one being taught will know what to do to be saved and that includes knowledge about the purpose of baptism.

Lancelot

Lively:  I do believe one must know their sins are taken away in baptism otherwise one can not have faith of the operation of God to take away their sins in baptism...  one can not know they have become saved from their sins without knowledge their sins are taken away in baptism...  I do believe some things can be taught after... but how much later do we want to make known these things... personally I would make them known before baptism...

[HRoberson]

One doesn't need faith in the operation of God....

One must have some sort of faith in God (sufficiently to prompt a decision to follow God).

[lancelot]

One doesn't need faith in the operation of God....

One must have some sort of faith in God (sufficiently to prompt a decision to follow God).

Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

That latter part sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God.

Some sort of faith?  Isn't the only faith that we see acceptable in the NT times in scripture belief in the gospel?

Paul was explicit in Rom.10, saying, "thatif you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (v.9).

That sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God also.

The only faith extolled in the NT for these times is this:  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (v.17)

Lancelot

[HRoberson]

One doesn't need faith in the operation of God....

One must have some sort of faith in God (sufficiently to prompt a decision to follow God).

Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

That latter part sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God.

Some sort of faith?  Isn't the only faith that we see acceptable in the NT times in scripture belief in the gospel?

Paul was explicit in Rom.10, saying, "thatif you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (v.9).

That sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God also.

The only faith extolled in the NT for these times is this:  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (v.17)

Lancelot

To whom is the Hebrew writer writing, and why?

[Livelysword]

One doesn't need faith in the operation of God....

One must have some sort of faith in God (sufficiently to prompt a decision to follow God).

Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

That latter part sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God.

Some sort of faith?  Isn't the only faith that we see acceptable in the NT times in scripture belief in the gospel?

Paul was explicit in Rom.10, saying, "thatif you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (v.9).

That sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God also.

The only faith extolled in the NT for these times is this:  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (v.17)

Lancelot

Lively:  Col 2 clearly states it plainly...


Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

[HRoberson]

One doesn't need faith in the operation of God....

One must have some sort of faith in God (sufficiently to prompt a decision to follow God).

Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

That latter part sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God.

Some sort of faith?  Isn't the only faith that we see acceptable in the NT times in scripture belief in the gospel?

Paul was explicit in Rom.10, saying, "thatif you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (v.9).

That sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God also.

The only faith extolled in the NT for these times is this:  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (v.17)

Lancelot

Lively:  Col 2 clearly states it plainly...


Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Same question....to whom is Paul speaking, and why?

[Livelysword]

One doesn't need faith in the operation of God....

One must have some sort of faith in God (sufficiently to prompt a decision to follow God).

Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

That latter part sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God.

Some sort of faith?  Isn't the only faith that we see acceptable in the NT times in scripture belief in the gospel?

Paul was explicit in Rom.10, saying, "thatif you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (v.9).

That sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God also.

The only faith extolled in the NT for these times is this:  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (v.17)

Lancelot

Lively:  Col 2 clearly states it plainly...


Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Same question....to whom is Paul speaking, and why?

Lively:  Paul is speaking to the Christians of Colosse... and to edification...

[HRoberson]

One doesn't need faith in the operation of God....

One must have some sort of faith in God (sufficiently to prompt a decision to follow God).

Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

That latter part sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God.

Some sort of faith?  Isn't the only faith that we see acceptable in the NT times in scripture belief in the gospel?

Paul was explicit in Rom.10, saying, "thatif you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (v.9).

That sounds a bit like faith in the operation of God also.

The only faith extolled in the NT for these times is this:  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (v.17)

Lancelot

Lively:  Col 2 clearly states it plainly...


Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Same question....to whom is Paul speaking, and why?

Lively:  Paul is speaking to the Christians of Colosse... and to edification...

So far, so good.

What is the background of this letter?

What is the occasion for its writing?

[blituri]

Because all have sinned the REMEDY does not depend on time, place or theology. Paul says the same thing to all of the churches.  The "faith only" twist from Romans 10 ignores the fact that all of the essential conditions are present and FAITH reads the whole chapter.  Calling on the name of the Lord is confession: therefore all of the STEPS are included in Romans 10 including Baptism which is the ONLY thing ever said to wash away or remit our sins.  Faith only does not remit sins: Faith IN THE OPERATION OF GOD where faith includes COMPLIETH is what saves. 

The terminal point is that those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved: The same Paul was told to arise and wash away thy sins "calling on the name of the lord." Peter in Acts says that one must repent and be baptized in the NAME (singular)) of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins. The same Peter says that baptism does now save us. Fact: don't call him a liar. How does it saves? It saves because Baptism is the ACT by which we request A good conscience which is A holy spirit after God has washed away our sins.

Paul taught the same thing everywhere: faith in Christ as the son of God gives one the ability TO BECOME a son of God but faith does not MAKE one a REgenerated child of God.  We are righteous by faith which means that we have "legal standing" to call upon the Name of the Lord.  However, not until we appeal to God AT baptism are we saved, our sins washed away, and we become like a little child and are added to the Church of Christ.

That which saves is THE FAITH IN THE OPERATION OF GOD: I don't see how you can "situationally" twist away from that. OUR faith does not have magical powers: the that believeth AND is baptized SHALL BE saved.



Those who claim that "we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith--ONLY" can never read the HOW God accomplishes that.  We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith when we are Baptized INTO Christ.  If you try to distort the Word of God you may need to become like a little child who does not contradict God over and over

[Livelysword]

Because all have sinned the REMEDY does not depend on time, place or theology. Paul says the same thing to all of the churches.  The "faith only" twist from Romans 10 ignores the fact that all of the essential conditions are present and FAITH reads the whole chapter.  Calling on the name of the Lord is confession: therefore all of the STEPS are included in Romans 10 including Baptism which is the ONLY thing ever said to wash away or remit our sins.  Faith only does not remit sins: Faith IN THE OPERATION OF GOD where faith includes COMPLIETH is what saves. 

The terminal point is that those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved: The same Paul was told to arise and wash away thy sins "calling on the name of the lord." Peter in Acts says that one must repent and be baptized in the NAME (singular)) of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins. The same Peter says that baptism does now save us. Fact: don't call him a liar. How does it saves? It saves because Baptism is the ACT by which we request A good conscience which is A holy spirit after God has washed away our sins.

Paul taught the same thing everywhere: faith in Christ as the son of God gives one the ability TO BECOME a son of God but faith does not MAKE one a REgenerated child of God.  We are righteous by faith which means that we have "legal standing" to call upon the Name of the Lord.  However, not until we appeal to God AT baptism are we saved, our sins washed away, and we become like a little child and are added to the Church of Christ.

That which saves is THE FAITH IN THE OPERATION OF GOD: I don't see how you can "situationally" twist away from that. OUR faith does not have magical powers: the that believeth AND is baptized SHALL BE saved.



Those who claim that "we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith--ONLY" can never read the HOW God accomplishes that.  We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith when we are Baptized INTO Christ.  If you try to distort the Word of God you may need to become like a little child who does not contradict God over and over

Lively:  Again, I am in agreement with what you posted...  +1...

[Norton]

When Paul wrote his letters to the churches explaining baptism - Take your pick:

1. The baptisms of most people in the churches were invalid because when they were baptized, they had not received these teachngs and had not understood the fulll meaning of baptism.

2.  Most in the churches had already received and fully understood these teachings when they were baptized, but Paul wanted to rehash old stuff.

3. Most in the churches did not have a full understanding of baptism until they received Paul's writings, nevertheless, their baptisms were valid.