The prophetical argument for IM

[Mere Nick]

Without exception folks who don't use or like CENI-- have a problem with the teaching of the texts..

That's a false statement.

[Livelysword]

What Marc said.  Mmm hmm.

Lively:  The message is not only applicable to Mark...

[Livelysword]

Lively
It is you that simply does not understand the logic of your position and that like everyone else you pick and choose which commands and approved examples  you will follow.  Yes we understand about parables ETC.  However, all we are doing is asking that you either follow your CENI or understand that it is human logic and flawed.

Lively:  all I see is your unwillingness to learn a lesson so many have taught, but you are unable to grasp...  from where I sit, I can not tell if this is deliberate or out of ignorance... but either way... you are missing the lesson...  How do you not come to understand that if Jesus used such things, commands, examples, and Necessary inferences... to teach doctrine from the scripture, that such is acceptable of God... and that we to can use scripture and interpret the bible the same way...  If its good enough for Jesus, is it not good enough for you too?  If he states, he has given you examples to follow him... can you not follow his examples of how he used scripture to interpret them?   If nothing else, this subject should be studied by you until you do get it...  you really should not go on to anything else until you get this subject...  because how can you come to right understandings of the word of God if you are unable to come to understand how to interpret the scriptures...

The others are trying to make a point in what is being said to you in this dialogue.  But, since you're apparently not making the connection, I'll try to clarify it for you.

This is about handling the "commands and examples" we read of in the New Testament consistently.

What the others are trying to get you to see is that you may not be doing that.

Here's a question for you to answer:  If we are at liberty to not serve each other in the same exact manner as Jesus taught (by foot washing), then why would we not also have the liberty to worship with or without instruments?

The inconsistency is this... on the one hand, we should serve each other but not necessarily in the exact scriptural manner prescribed by Jesus but in "other ways" not necessarily specified in the New Testament.  But, on the other hand, we must worship without instruments because they're not specified in the New Testament?

Don't you see that inconsistency?

Lively:  Tell us, is handling examples consistently, teaching one must eat the communion in an upper room of sorts... whether in an upper room or third loft, and must one after eating go out unto a garden and pray?  Is such an example one laid out to follow in such a manor?

[Livelysword]

Lively
It is you that simply does not understand the logic of your position and that like everyone else you pick and choose which commands and approved examples  you will follow.  Yes we understand about parables ETC.  However, all we are doing is asking that you either follow your CENI or understand that it is human logic and flawed.

Lively:  all I see is your unwillingness to learn a lesson so many have taught, but you are unable to grasp...  from where I sit, I can not tell if this is deliberate or out of ignorance... but either way... you are missing the lesson...  How do you not come to understand that if Jesus used such things, commands, examples, and Necessary inferences... to teach doctrine from the scripture, that such is acceptable of God... and that we to can use scripture and interpret the bible the same way...  If its good enough for Jesus, is it not good enough for you too?  If he states, he has given you examples to follow him... can you not follow his examples of how he used scripture to interpret them?   If nothing else, this subject should be studied by you until you do get it...  you really should not go on to anything else until you get this subject...  because how can you come to right understandings of the word of God if you are unable to come to understand how to interpret the scriptures...

The others are trying to make a point in what is being said to you in this dialogue.  But, since you're apparently not making the connection, I'll try to clarify it for you.

This is about handling the "commands and examples" we read of in the New Testament consistently.

What the others are trying to get you to see is that you may not be doing that.

Here's a question for you to answer:  If we are at liberty to not serve each other in the same exact manner as Jesus taught (by foot washing), then why would we not also have the liberty to worship with or without instruments?

The inconsistency is this... on the one hand, we should serve each other but not necessarily in the exact scriptural manner prescribed by Jesus but in "other ways" not necessarily specified in the New Testament.  But, on the other hand, we must worship without instruments because they're not specified in the New Testament?

Don't you see that inconsistency?

Lively:  to answer the question specifically... the foot washing was done to teach a lesson, and was not about the foot washing, Jesus was not teaching them foot washing so they would go out and wash each others feet, but to serve one another, so nobody would think they are the chiefest and should served, as Jesus being Lord and master did not come to be served, but to serve...  I am not sure how you would like this to relate to the playing in instruments of music in the church... there is no command to play instruments of music in the church... all authority is given unto Christ, and whatsoever we do in word or deed, is to all be done by the authority of Jesus Christ...  therefore you have no authority whatsoever to play any instrument of music in the worship of God...  for one to say, well there is no verse which does not state I can not play an instrument of music in the worship of God... simply disrespects the authority of Jesus Christ.  Did you view the links I posted from You tube about such authority... that last link was spot on... if you think because it is not written that one can not play instruments of music in the worship, that such gives you authority to play instruments of music, then by that same thinking you have to allow anyone who dreams up anything which is not specifically stated in the bible to allow such in the worship of God... such as adding Jelly to the bread of the communion since no place in scripture is it stated one can not add Jelly to the bread.  Nowhere does it state that I can not offer for an offering something other then money.   Am I not therefore at liberty to bring the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD, and expect the Lord to have respect unto my offering?  Just forget the fact it was not acceptable for Abel...??  What did God state about those who would come nigh unto him?


Lev 10:3  Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the LORD spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.


The difference being is this... Jesus and or God the Father still expects us to worship him in accordance to his will and not our own...  so the idea of them to serve one another, would be with some deed which Jesus does authorize... not with something not authorized...  since scripture furnishes us unto all good works... I would suggest you look at scripture to see what good thing Jesus does accept... and then serve your brethren by one of them good works which is expressly authorized...  really, its not hard to do...  Here is one thing James stated... easily to follow...

Jas 2:15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?


So, if you see someone naked and destitute of daily food... would not giving them clothing and feeding them be a good work, one which God would bless you for?  Sometimes just a kind and loving remark on message boards such is this can be a blessing to another... something they may have needed...  not everything one gives must be of monetary value...   there is a time and season for everything under the sun, is there not?  When someone stands up and speaks the truth and you know it to be the truth... stand with your brother or sister in Christ, be of one mind in the Lord as we are commanded to do...  again, God will bless us when we do his will...  instead of me having to continue to teach the same lessons over and over... It would be wonderful if some along the way learned some of the lessons and taught them as well... and showed it is true we can be united upon the truth of the gospel, and that we all can speak the same things... that we can speak those things which become sound doctrine and convince the gainsayers...  think about it...  is there no lesson at all given that you have not believed is true?  I certainly do not mind that one say, I have heard many of the lessons and have accepted most of them, but I just have not gotten to a place where I can accept this one... and then make reason why...  I certainly will not state all I teach may be perfect understanding... but I certainly am not teaching nothing but lies... there is nothing I teach on the gospel that I believe is a lie...  truth is important to me...  it is truth which sets us free, and lies which bring us into bondage...  is it possible that there is something I have taught which was not truth... it is possible... but at this point in my Christian life, I do not know of anything I believe today which is not truth...  but I can say what I believe today, is different from what I had believed even 7 years ago...  there is a couple of things I have come to better understand and found I had not understood the truth on a subject or two.  Even some of the most faithful brethren I know do not agree with me on it either...  but we certainly continue to talk, and are in agreement with many of the other doctrines taught in the gospel... the things we disagree upon are not things which is a salvation issue...  we both fully agree what one must do to be saved, and we fully agree what is acceptable worship of God...  I understand that this board has many members which are not sound in doctrine... may be of a mind that some things we disagree upon has driven them away into apostasy, whether they understand that or not... but isn't it nice to be able to come on line and use such a message board as this to hear the differences and be able to discuss such...  we as Christians have to be of a mind to change a belief we may have been wrong about... that is the way of the Lord... scripture is designed for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness... that the man of God may be perfect,  thoroughly furnished unto all good works...    Hope some of this has hit home for you...

[Mere Nick]

What Marc said.  Mmm hmm.

Lively:  The message is not only applicable to Mark...

Actually, his reply #186 had to do with just you.  Comprehension, Lively.  You might want to work on that.

[Johnb]

CENI says we must obey all NT commands and approved examples.  Those who claim to follow it as their theology say that is true.  Except those NT commands and approved  examples I decide we should not follow.   

[Scoobydoo]

Johnb, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Yes, I am living proof that I have seen such things here. Thanks for being so observant to notice.

Scoobydoo

[Mere Nick]

Thanks for the admission.  Most folks aren't so willing to admit stuff like that about themselves.  I'm truly impressed.

[blituri]

JohnB: CENI says we must obey all NT commands and approved examples.  Those who claim to follow it as their theology say that is true.  Except those NT commands and approved  examples I decide we should not follow.

It's a fact that most preachers missed the course on speaking where the Bible speaks: you can do that if you hold what Paul called SYNAGOGUE and speak that which is written with one mind and one mouth." SELF pleasure OUTLAWS all of the hypocritic or performance which creates mental excitement.  Paul calls it SCRIPTURE which is what he commanded in all of the NOT musical passages.

Whatever THEY do, anyone who presumes to be a teacher of the law without knowing the law comes under judgment.  They would understand that GOD IS NOT silent: people are just deaf and dumb.

Common decency should prevent the ANTI-non instrumentalists from making a hate crime against the Church of Christ when all non-Catholic based churches insist on the same opinion--from the beginning.

John Girardeau, Presbyterian:

http://www.piney.com/MuGeoGir1.html

Attention, at the outset, is invoked to the considerations which serve to establish the following controlling principle:
     A divine warrant is necessary for every element of doctrine, government and worship in the church;
     that is, whatsoever in these spheres is not commanded in the Scriptures,
     either expressly or by good and necessary consequence from their statements, is forbidden.

1. This principle is deducible by logical inference from the great truth confessed by Protestants that the Scriptures are an infallible rule of faith and practice, and therefore supreme, perfect and sufficient for all the needs of the Church.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

    This truth operates positively to the inclusion of everything in the doctrine, government and worship of the church
    which is commanded, explicitly or implicitly, in the Scriptures, 
    and negatively to the exclusion of everything which is not so commanded.

2. This principle of the necessity of a divine warrant for everything in the faith and practice of the church is proved by didactic statements of Scripture.

Num. 15:39, 40: "Remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: that ye may remember and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God."

THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND DISCIPLES / CHRISTIAN CHURCH whose roots are in Anglical / Catholicism

The Church of England, in her twentieth article, concedes to the church "a power to decree rites and ceremonies,"' with this limitation alone upon its exercise,

"that it is not lawful for the church to ordain anything that is contrary to God's written word." [3]

NOTE [3] Some curious and remarkable statements have been made with reference to this article. When, in 1808, the question of the introduction of instrumental music into public worship was before the Presbytery of Glasgow, the Rev. Dr. Begg, father of the late Dr. James Begg, published a treatise on the "Use of Organs," in which the following statement is attributed to the Rev. Alexander Hislop: "The Church of England has admitted into its articles this principle, that it belongs to 'the church' of her own authority, to 'decree rites and ceremonies.' (Article 20 )

As a matter of historical fact, this principle was never agreed to by the Convocation that adopted the Thirty-nine Articles, this sentence being found neither in the first printed edition of the articles, nor in the draft of them that passed the Convocation, and which is still in existence, with the autograph signatures of the members; but it is believed to have been surreptitiously inserted by the hand of Queen Elizabeth herself, who had much of the over-bearing spirit of her father, Henry VIII., and who, as head of the church, which the English constitution made her, was determined to have a pompous worship under her ecclesiastical control." In support of this statement, reference is made to "authorities in Presbyterian Review, July, 1843." The Use of Organs, etc., by James Begg, D.D., (p. 150). See also Bannerman's Church of Christ, Vol. I., p. 339

The principle of the discretionary power of the church in regard to things not commanded by Christ in his Word,
was the chief fountain from which flowed the gradually increasing tide of corruptions that swept the Latin church into apostasy from the gospel of God's grace.

And as surely as causes produce their appropriate effects, and history repeats itself in obedience to that law, any Protestant church which embodies that principle in its creed is destined, sooner or later, to experience a similar fate. The same, too, may be affirmed of a church which formally rejects it and practically conforms to it. The reason is plain.

The only bridle that checks the degenerating tendency of the church a tendency manifested in all ages is the Word of God:
        for the Spirit of grace Himself ordinarily
        operates only in connection with that Word.
        If this restraint be discarded, the downward lapse is sure.

The words of the great theologian, John Owen and the British Isles have produced no greater are solemn and deserve to be seriously pondered:

"The principle that the church hath power to institute any thing or ceremony
      belonging to the worship of God, either as to matter or manner,
      beyond the observance of such circumstances
      as necessarily attend such ordinances as Christ himself hath instituted,

lies at the bottom of all the horrible superstition and idolatry, of all the confusion, blood, persecution and wars that have for so long a season spread themselves over the face of the Christian world."

CENI denies YOUR right to IMPOSE a ritual or ceremony NOT COMMANDED and NOT REQUIRED to carry out the role of the Qahal, synagogue or ekklesia which is a WORD OF GOD ONLY school of the Bible.

If you teach "that which is written" you obey the DIRECT COMMANDS for the the ekklesia or synagogue.  If the elders (only) teach that which HAS BEEN taught then you have direct commands.

Vocal or instrumental rejoicing is OUTLAWED in Numbers 10 for the qahal or synagogue: if one has to depend on the DIRECT COMMAND to outlaw music rather than minimal common decency and reverence when ou synagogue to PREACH by READING the Word of Gdd, then THAT at least protects the reverent disciples from the MEN Jesus marked as CHILDREN piping trying to force everyone to sing and dance (Dance is DEMANDED in the music word).

I cannot get it into my brain that any minimal student of the Bible would RUN OUT of material more exciting than watching the cappella fellas out themselves.

Maybe people should confess I HAVE THE RIGHT TO "PRIVATE INTERPRET" meaning further expounding and violating the clear Biblical standard WITHOUT pouring out hate on the "hand that feeds you" or USED to feed you.

[Johnb]

Nick
I assume your were talking of scooby since youknow that I don't use CENI as my theology.

[OkiMar]

It also says the seas and fish should be singing.  You see that the same way?  Would you deny my pet beta the right to lead in song next Sunday?

A singing fish isn't a big deal unless it knows 728b.

728b
http://www.bellairechurchofchrist.org/node/342

[Mere Nick]

Nick
I assume your were talking of scooby since youknow that I don't use CENI as my theology.

Yes, I was.  I do believe you do use CEHR, though, just like everyone else.  However, you appear to be more ready to admit the shortcomings of it than some folks are, especially the NI (mere human reasoning) part.

[Mere Nick]

CENI denies YOUR right to IMPOSE a ritual or ceremony NOT COMMANDED and NOT REQUIRED to carry out the role of the Qahal, synagogue or ekklesia which is a WORD OF GOD ONLY school of the Bible.

Cool.  I'm all against imposing, especially when someone is trying to impose a NI.

[Johnb]

Nick
Yes I use CE as a part of my theology.  (I don't use NI)  However as Campbell and all rational thinking folks I understand that my conclusions are based on human reasoning and can not be bound on others beyond their comprehension.

[Livelysword]

What Marc said.  Mmm hmm.

Lively:  The message is not only applicable to Mark...

Actually, his reply #186 had to do with just you.  Comprehension, Lively.  You might want to work on that.

Lively:  My comprehension is fine...  again, the message was not only applicable to Marc...  it applies to others as well...