The prophetical argument for IM

[Mere Nick]

Comprehension, Lively.  Look it up.

[Livelysword]

You appear to have no idea what Nick or I are talking about.  Nick's comment had nothing to do with whatever it was you said applied to anyone. 

He was agreeing with what marc had just said, not responding to anything you had said.  But, that's okay.  We'll let it go.

Lively:  It really does not matter to whom marc was talking to... it does not matter who else was talking to who else... if something I wrote did not only apply to you to whom I was speaking to... it may apply to others regardless if I was speak directly to them or not, or if they were speak to me or not...  but since you are having such a hard time understanding it... lets just say for what I said, it applies to you...  and yet I agree now, its best served to just let it go...  that is what you wanted all along right?

[Johnb]

Sounds like the same logic you use when reading the bible.

[Livelysword]

Sounds like the same logic you use when reading the bible.

Lively:  I highly doubt you are catching on to what I had said...  I am done with this conversation...

[Johnb]

good!

[blituri]

Those twisting Scripture to IMPOSE instruments knowing and planning to sow discord and "pick up the pieces" as some claim, use the Levites as their authority. Not a one of them including the ACU batch know that it was because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai that God abandoned them to worship the starry host: these hosts are named in Amos and by Stephen in Acts 7 which got him murdered by the STAR WORSHIPERS.

Furthermore, the LEVITES as their PATTERNISM were devoted to Sun and star worship in Egypt which included the burning of infants: this resumed as soon as Hezekiah died and Hezekiah's PLAGUE STOPPING animal slaughter where the warrionr's instruments sounded during the burnt offering for the lost nation of Israel when God HAD NEVER COMMANDED sacrifices.

To cap it off, the usual approach to restoring the Levites is to promote and practice SABBATH WORSHIP which is the holy day for ALL sun god worship.  The MARKS are loud and clear:

Under "Star Worship" the Jewish Encyclopedia states:

"Star Worship" is perhaps the oldest form of idolatry practiced by the ancients. The observation of the stars in the East very early led the people to regard the planets and the fixed stars as gods. The religion of the ancient Egyptians is known to have consisted preeminently of Sun-worship. Moses sternly warned the Israelites against worshipping the Sun, Moon, stars, and all the hosts of heaven (Deuteronomy 4:19; 17:3). The Israelites fell into this kind of idolatry and as early as the time of Amos they had the images of Siccuth and Chium, 'the stars of their god' (Amos 5:26); the latter name is generally supposed to denote the planet Saturn. That the Kingdom of Israel fell earlier than that of Judah is stated (II Kings 17:16) to have been due, among other causes, to its worshipping the host of heaven.

But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship." Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals who worshipped the heavenly bodies, and poured out libations to them on the roofs of their houses (Zephaniah 1:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13)  Jeremiah, who prophesied in the sixth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin (591 B.C.) describes the worship of the Sun as practiced in the court of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:16) and that even after the destruction of the Temple the women insisted on continuing to worship the Queen of Heaven.

"The ancient Hebrews, being nomads like the Arabs, favored the Moon, while the Babylonians, who were an agricultural nation, preferred the Sun. But, as appears from Ezekiel 20:7-8 the Moon-worship of the Israelites, even while they were still in Egypt was combined with Sun-worship."

Sabbath worship and using the Levites who worshipped SATURN whose number is 666 could not be a louder sound of the trumpets heard over the world of the elect.  The MISLEADERS know what they are doing but you do not and probably will never.

[Mere Nick]

 

[Scoobydoo]

Greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Often in discussions even this one on IM when we use terms or in this case when I use either the term "righteous" righteousness" or, "unrighteousness" that we all have the same basic mind picture and perhaps we do or we do not.

The use of IM in man's worship to God is an act of unrighteousness thus it is a sin--it is not authorized.When the cloud clears from the confusion of using the sing texts or warping the worship service when we are done all we have in the scripture is sing.

righteous translates as "right-wiseness" "right actions"  and God in His relationship with man--God is always the one to define "right actions."

Now, I have just assumed the rest of this about righteousness but it seems to me that I should not just "automatically" do so.

So let's take an example of HOW righteousness works.

One of the keys to establishing- understanding what is righteous is --is the relationship.

[1] a man may treat his wife\children well and in that relationship be righteous.

[2] Yet if that same man is not a Christian--then whilethe acts within the family are accounted as righteousness--It is not transferable to the man's relationship with God.

[3] That same man can be a preacher--and in his different relationships can be accounted as righteous--but if that man is not a Christian--That does not transfer over to his relationship with his God.

[4] That same man can feed the hungry shelter the homeless and in that relationship be righteous--yet if that man is not in the right relationship with God--It counts for nothing in his relationship with God.

[5] That same man can be a member of a church that is not the church of Christ--

This man can do all the things found in scripture that Christians are susposed to do..but if the relationship with God is on God's terms--then the works done in that relationship are worthless in his relationship with God.

Note--for the man in a righteous relationship with God--does not mean nor make that man perfect as we use the word today.

A man can be "righteous" in many different relationships and believe that those do count with his relationship with God.  And, they are worthless, if the man is not in a righteous relationship with God. In other words that man is still in his sins--but because of the works he does He may not so believe.

In other words because of the "works" that man has in many other relationships the man may tend to believe that makes him alright with God--but has not been immersed in water in order to have his sins forgiven.

As a Christian--as a Priest of the most high God--to remain righteous after having been made righteous by obeying the gospel--the man needs to obey the covenant laws.

In man's living relationship with God the man offers up only those things that man can prove from scripture--that is well pleasing to God.

Again we are back to Cain and Abel..Both are believers--one offered something to God that was not authorized or well pleasing and God called him on it.

In my community today--a lot of folks were at "church" and as folks go they are not much different from those that go to the churches of Christ..

They do many of the same things we do "at church" and in our "community". So, it is not fact that they are "unbelievers" that separates us.

What separates us is the fact that for what ever reason--they are not obedient to the Gospel on God's terms.

It has always been that way and almost always--those who are not Christians do not believe that they are not.

That is not going to change anytime soon. Millions are lost simply because they did not do it God'sway.

As Christians when we stop doing it God's way we end up losing our relationship with God and are readopted by God's moral law of sin and of death and thus are again lost.

Im--is not--is not a little insignificant problem--It gets to the very heart of obedience.

Obedience uses what God has given us--not wanting things that God has not given us.

The problems that churches of Christ have and experience are not excuses for not obeying the scriptures by others.

Just because of problems does not make it ok--to branch out and have one do it their way.
Both are wrong. All of us are accountable to the Word of God.

We need to understand that Jesus did not come to "judge the world" but to save it but His words--now, that is another story.

Scoobydoo

[DCR]

As a Christian--as a Priest of the most high God--to remain righteous after having been made righteous by obeying the gospel--the man needs to obey the covenant laws.

I'm not sure how well that statement sits with everything Paul wrote about righteousness, law, and faith in Romans and Galatians.


Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.

Romans 4:13
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 10
⁴For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.  ⁵For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


 

[Scoobydoo]

DCR, greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

Scoobydoo stated
As a Christian--as a Priest of the most high God--to remain righteous after having been made righteous by obeying the gospel--the man needs to obey the covenant laws.

To which you said....

I'm not sure how well that statement sits with everything Paul wrote about righteousness, law, and faith in Romans and Galatians.


Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.

Romans 4:13
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 10
4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.  5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.


   I stated "man needs to obey the covenant law" So let me add this--
Man needs to obey the covenant law that He is accountable to.

Please re read the texts you used..Each of those texts the word "law" is specific to the Mosaic law--is it not?

We are not under the Mosaic covenant--which ended at the cross with the death of Jesus.

No covenant exists without law--It is wise to seek to understand how the word "law" is used so I hope that by reframing my statement a bit--it is clearer.

We are as Christians governed NOT BY

[1] God's moral law of sin and of death
[2] The Mosaic law given at Mt. Sinai

We as Christians are governed by the law of Christ.

Scoobydoo

[blituri]

The Lying Wonders Paul warned about have much the same meaning as the LADED BURDEN performed by BURDEN LADERS. The burden, like a lying wonder, includes an added tax not in time of war and the style of singing and music calculated to delude the mind into believing that "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals" is really the spirit person inside of us.

http://www.piney.com/MuBurden.html

WE ARE IN THE MUDDLE OF LYING WONDERS: they lie about every "instrument" mention in the Bible and impose it on the simple minded because of the promise of WONDERS or "Spectacles of worship with sight and sound and motion and lights moving everyone into a VORTEX of praise."  Carol Wimber is at least honest: she calls it a sexual-like climactic experience with the spirit.

From a direct command the Church of Christ was a School of the Word beginning in the wilderness.  It outlawed vocal or instrumental rejoicing and that never changed.  Christ came to shut down the spectacles and give us a chance to save ourselves FROM that crooked race of people.

All of the direct commands are to SPEAK the Word of God and the purpose was to teach DISCIPLES: Disciples do not go to worship services where the LYING WONDERS shut down their learning ability.

2Th. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
        whom the Lord shall consume with the SPIRIT of his mouth,
        and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is
          after the working of Satan with all power
          and signs and lying wonders,
2Th. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
        because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Most preaching and all singing prove that the TRUTH as the commanded Word of Christ is hated.

2Th. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion,
        that they should believe a lie:
2Th. 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
        but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

A prodigy a lying wonder might be the false claim that people will bring God into your midst or "lead you into the presence of God" using music.  The word can also mean A monstrous and unnatural Crime.   For instance, a monster might try to force the TITHE or the "Law of giving" under the ploy that the people would be owners of a church. However, the plan was to divert the monies and lie about all of the "music" words related to the Jewish Civil-Military-Clergy complex whom Christ in spirit called robbers and parasites; or as Scribes and Pharisees called hypocrites marked as speakers, singers and instrument players, to FORCE the owners to submit to the same musical idolatry "or find yourself another church home." id. Verr. 2, 3, 73,

I told you that there is no LAW of tithing and no LAW of giving. Therefore, collecting money knowing that you intend to lie, cheat and steal the church house of widows and honest working people is a LYING WONDER. The Purpose Driven Cult intends to keep you bewitched until they have YOUR money in THEIR hands and they will SELL you and yours to Satan for a crust of breat.  A noted preacher promised NEVER to use instruments on Sunday. When he announced that they would impose instruments on Sunday and people protested his response was "That was THEN but this is NOW."  And all based on terminal ignorance of the Bible and/or terminal evil.

Cicero 3 I demand the accounts, I inspect the documents, I see that the people of Halesa, from whom sixty thousand modii had bees levied, had given none, that they had paid money to Volcatus, and to Timarchides the clerk. I find a case of plunder of this kind, O judges, that the praetor, whose duty it was to buy corn, did not buy it, but sell it; and that he embezzles and appropriates
      It did not appear to me any longer to be a theft, but a monster and a prodigy;
      to reject the corn of the cities,
      and to approve of his own; when he had approved of his own, then to put a price on that corn, to take from the cities what he had fixed, and to retain what he had received from the Roman people. the money which he ought to have divided among the cities.

4592 semeion say-mi'-on Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591 ; an indication, especially CEREMONIALLY or supernaturally:--miracle, sign, token, wonder.

Semaino A MARK. SEMEIO: A MARK for AVOIDANCE.

Terato-poios , on, A. working wonders, LXX 2 Ma.15.21

Thaumasios 1.wonderful teras men thaumasion prosidesthai, thauma de kai pareontôn akousai P. 1.26

Pindar Odes 1: [1] Golden lyre, rightful joint possession of Apollo [Apollyon Revelation] and the violet-haired Muses [Musicians Rev 18], to which the dance-step listens, the beginning [SEMI] of splendid FESTIVITY and singers obey your notes, whenever, with your quivering strings, you prepare to strike up CHORUS-LEADING PRELUDES. [5] You quench even the warlike thunderbolt of everlasting fire. And the eagle sleeps on the scepter of Zeus, relaxing his swift wings on either side,
        [7] the king of birds; and you pour down a dark mist over his curved head,
        a sweet seal on his eyelids.
        Slumbering, he ripples his liquid back,
        [10] under the spell of your pulsing notes.
Even powerful Ares, setting aside the rough spear-point,
        warms his heart in repose; your shafts charm the minds even of the gods,
        by virtue of the skill of Leto's son and the deep-bosomed Muses. [Rev 18]
[13] But those whom Zeus does not love are stunned with terror
        when they hear the cry of the Pierian Muses, on earth or on the irresistible sea.

Thaumatourg-eô A. = thaumatopoieô, X.Smp.7.2; work wonders or miracles, Ph.2.18,185; but ta perigeia th. 'play tricks with', of Xerxes, Id.1.674; ta tethaumatourgêmena wonderful phenomena, Pl.Ti. 80c. Parallel to Teratourgeo, Teratourga, Thaumasios

Xenophon, Symposium VII. Then some among the rest of the banqueters kept urging Philip to go on with his comparisons, while others opposed. As the clamour rose to some height, Socrates once more interposed, saying: “Since we all want to talk, would this not be a fine time to join in singing?” And with the words he began a song. [2] When they had finished, a potter's wheel was brought in for the dancing girl on which she intended performing some feats of jugglery.... 
        [5] However, these questions also fail to promote the same object that wine does;
        but if the young people were to have a flute accompaniment and dance figures
             depicting the Graces, the Horae, and the Nymphs,
       I believe that they would be far less wearied themselves
       and that the charms of the banquet would be greatly enhanced.”

“Upon my word, Socrates,” replied the Syracusan, “you are quite right; and I will bring in a spectacle that will delight you.”

The Greek: Teratourg-e, A. WORK wonders, pseud´sti Sch.Pi.I.7(6).1

Pindar Odes: [1] In which of the local glories of the past, divinely blessed Thebe, did you most delight your spirit?
        Was it when you raised to eminence the one seated beside Demeter of the clashing bronze cymbals,
        flowing-haired [5] Dionysus? Or when you received, as a snow-shower of gold in the middle of the night,
        the greatest of the gods [old wineskin god]
[20] then begin the victory [Nike: TRIUMPH OVER]
        procession with a sweet-singing hymn for Strepsiades;
        for he is the victor in the pancratium at the Isthmus,
        both awesome in his strength and handsome to look at;
        and he treats excellence as no worse a possession than beauty.
        [23] He is made radiant by the violet-haired Muses,
        and he has given a share in his flowering garland to his uncle and namesake

The-ama  A. sight, spectacle, Semon.7.67, A.Pr.306, E.Supp.783, Ar.Av.1716, etc.; ei tis orchoit' eu, theam' ên Pl.Com.130 ; Opposite mathaema, Th.2.39; freq. of a sight which gives pleasure, theamata kai akroamata haedista parecheis X.Smp.2.2 , cf. 7.5; orcheseis kai theamata

    Orcheoma represent by Rythm, pantomime , dance, singing and dancing, shaken, tremble, "made my heart leap." Salto (David's dance: dancing a girl's part) to Perform in pantomime or play a part. Recited with thythmical movements.

    Xenophon, Symposium 2. II. When the tables had been removed and the guests had poured a libation and sung a hymn, there entered a man from Syracuse, to give them an evening's merriment. He had with him a fine flute-girl, a dancing-girl--one of those skilled in acrobatic tricks,--and a very handsome boy, who was expert at playing the cither and at dancing;
      the Syracusan made money by exhibiting their performances as a spectacle. [2] They now played for the assemblage, the flute-girl on the flute, the boy on the cither; and it was agreed that both furnished capital amusement. Thereupon Socrates remarked: “On my word, Callias, you are giving us a perfect dinner; for not only have you set before us a feast that is above criticism, but you are also offering us very delightful sights and sounds.”

ALL OF THE LYING WONDERS ARE TO SILENCE SPEAKING THAT WHICH HAS BEEN WRITTEN TO TEACH.

    Mathema that which is learnt, lesson, learning, knowledge Episteme  A. acquaintance with a matter, understanding. full knowledge in all things

AND YOU HATE THOSE WHO REPROVE AT THE GATE BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN SORCERIZED AND LOVE TO HAVE IT SO.

    Rom. 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak,
            and not to please ourselves.  [music and theatrics]
    Rom. 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. [education]
    Rom. 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written,
            The reproaches [exposed His nakedness] of them that reproached thee fell on me.
    Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime
            were written for our learning,
            that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
    Rom. 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation
            grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
    Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God,
            even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Rom. 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

THAT DEFINES WHAT PAUL CALLED SYNAGOGUE BOTH EXCLUSIVELY AND THEN INCLUSIVELY: this is what Christ commanded for the Church in the Wilderness:

    Acts 15:21 For Moses
            of old time hath
            in every city them that preach him,
            being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Who can deny that we are being invaded by strong delusions of those producing lying wonders.

[zoonance]

ah.  now i get it.

[Johnb]

Zoo
It is always clear when blit and scooby post their ebooks.  All sin is the result of IM and not understanding that there are 2 covenants. 

[zoonance]

It's always blithering and scoobydon't?

[Scoobydoo]

Johnb and zoonance--greetings in Christ from sunny Texas,

 

Scoobydoo