The Spiritual Sword - October 2009 Issue

[OkiMar]

DCR, I just don't see the dilemma. Having Apostles appoint elders today isn't the pattern because there are no Apostles. Miraculous tongues are not the pattern because the Bible teaches that miraculous gifts would cease. The Christian world is virtually unanimous in understanding that head coverings, greeting with kisses, and foot washing were cultural practices rather than commands pertaining to worship. Clearly, you find the notion of a pattern perplexing, but I fail to see the dilemma.

[Johnb]

DCR, I just don't see the dilemma. Having Apostles appoint elders today isn't the pattern because there are no Apostles. Miraculous tongues are not the pattern because the Bible teaches that miraculous gifts would cease. The Christian world is virtually unanimous in understanding that head coverings, greeting with kisses, and foot washing were cultural practices rather than commands pertaining to worship. Clearly, you find the notion of a pattern perplexing, but I fail to see the dilemma.

Okimar
You been hanging out with CoC folks to exclusively.   Many groups believe miraculous gifts still exist today, several mainline groups believe women must cover their head, and several still wash feet.  These things are no where near "universally believed to be cultural". 
How do we know that elders were intended to be a permanent  official church office?  When Paul speaks of the parts of the body and relates it to the church elders are not even mentioned as part of the church body.   Could it be that they are simply those well worn in the faith that are an ensample for the assembly and not an official decision making person at all?  Where in the NT did the elders ever make a decision about anything separate and apart from the "whole assembly"?

[blituri]

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power,
        after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
        and ye shall be witnesses unto me both
        in Jerusalem, and
        in all Judaea, and
        in Samaria, and unto
        the uttermost part of the earth.

ONLY the Apostles could be witnesses and only in those four places did the apostles PERFORM SIGNS that they were the authorized revealers of the Words of Jesus Christ.

The only ones who spoke in tongues were in Apostolic contact in those four groups: once a SIGN is performed it does not have to be repeated.

No woman spoke in tongues (an unlearned language) with or without the Apostolic touch. Those 12 in Ephesus were baptized to receive A holy spirit. Afterward Paul laid his hands on them and they PROPHESIED. That allowed the whole province to hear the gospel when Paul stayed for a spell.  The FOUNDATION is laid by apostles and prophets: you cannot LAY the foundation and therefore this ACCOMPLISHED TASK would forever be to MARK as false teachers those who did not "teach that which had been taught."

When Judas was to be replaced the qualification was that they must be an EYE and EAR witness:

Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us,
        must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Later, Jesus appeared to the ELEVEN who were now unbelievers: that would only change with the upper room experience to the 12 disciples.

Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat,
        and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart,
        because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

There is no one today who has been personally chosen, was present in the upper room or could be a witness.

The THEY are the Eleven : the HE is the one who believes if THEY go preach.

The Apostles were the UNBELIEVERS in 16:14 will come to believe at Pentecost and THEY were the ones who preached the gospel and confirmed the Word by speaking in all of the minor dialects.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Again, people are tampering with the Word and MINIMIZING common literacy: Luke COULD HAVE said of the HE that was baptized, HE shall be able to perform SIGNS. But SIGNS of what?

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall FOLLOW them that believe;
        In my name shall THEY cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [real languages]

I certify that no pretend apostle can do that.  A sign is not a UTILITARIAN continuing power.

A Sign is: a sign, prodigy, portent, i.e. an unusual occurrence, transcending the common course of nature
1) of signs portending remarkable events soon to happen
2) of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men sent by him, or by which men prove that the cause they are pleading is God's

Zechariah warned that after the SIGN MIRACLES you should never believe people who claim to do "lying wonders" in Paul's words.

The finished SCRIPTURES were left as a MARK says Peter of those who do NOT teach that which has been supernaturally attested by eye and ear witnesses and CONFIRMED by MIRACLES to separate the true from FALSE apostles.

Matt. 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying,
       Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Matt. 12:39 But he answered and said unto them,
       An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;
       and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matt. 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets,
        and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible,
        they shall deceive the very elect.
Matt. 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

G1100 glōssa gloce'-sahOf uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired):—tongue.

Speaking in GIBBERISH learned and induced by musical sorcerers (Rev 18) is a VERY COMMON AS DIRT happening.  In Isaiah 28 and 1 Corinthians 14 it is a SIGN that UNBELIEVERS have your "city" surrounded and ready to kill you ot take you captiv: Heresy means "to lift up with mental excitement to carry you away for the demagogues own purposes always connected to KLEPTOMA

A lying wonder to admire, have men's persons in admiration. Music and theatrics as well as tongues are SIGNS of unbeliever says Paul quoting Isaiah 28.

[1] Golden lyre, rightful joint possession of Apollo [Apollyon Revelation and the violet-haired Muses [Musicians Rev 18], to which the dance-step listens, the beginning [SEMI] of splendid FESTIVITY and singers obey your notes, whenever, with your quivering strings, you prepare to strike up CHORUS-LEADING PRELUDES
.
FOLLOW does does not mean that the BAPTIZED BELIEVERS PERFORMED. Reading 101a.

Not even those who have heard the truth and been baptized could speak in unlearned LANGUAGES: Only the 12 were in the upper room. Only the 12 preached the gospel: Peter stood up with the eleven (11).  No one AFTERWARD could speak in UNLEARNED LANGUAGES other than by the hands of a STILL LIVING APOSTLE.

3877. parakoloutheo, par-ak-ol-oo-theh´-o; from 3844 and 190; to follow near, i.e. (figuratively) attend (as a result), trace out, conform to: -- attain, follow, fully know, have understanding.

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
        they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Did the baptized disciples perform SIGNS that THEY were speaking for God? Or did the Apostles who became true believers after Pentecost perform the SIGNS of their APOSTLESHIP.

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven,
        and sat on the right hand of God.
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere,
        the LORD working with them,
        and confirming the WORD with signs following. Amen.

DID YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?  Signs to confirm the WORD performed by the LORD (in Spirit). If you DENY Christ's command to be baptized FOR the remission of sins the LATTER DAY SIGNS are the MARKS of a false apostle.

No person who believed and were baptized for the remission of sins and ot receive A holy spirit every spoke in tongues or performed any SIGN supernatural act.

As another Comforter Jesus said I WILL COME TO YOU
The another COMFORTER was:

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The Lord who appeared to Paul was JESUS OF NAZARETH: the LORD, the Spirit
Paul was baptized to WASH AWAY HIS SINS by calling on the NAME of the LORD.
The Holy Spirit is not the NAME of some charismatic ecstasy: The Lord Jesus Christ does not INDUCE MANIA or madness which in history was always a Mad Women's Disease.

Jesus Christ the Spirit Lord appeared to Paul long after APOSTLE SEASON to qualify him to be an apostle. If anyone claims apostolic or prophetic powers they MUST have seen Jesus Christ in a blinding experience.  They will get hunches or gas pains or use what they think as the "spirit" telling them to lie about the revealed Word.  No one in true church history failed to justify God by denying Christ's FINISHED work.

CASTING OUT DEVILS

Acts 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer,
        a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us,
        which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved,
        turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.
        And he came out the same hour.

The Pythian spirit would have derived from Apollo's oracle at Delphi: Apollo is the Abaddon or Apollyon of Revelation. The MUSES along with the instrument players are called SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world according to John.  False apostles are highly addicted to BRINGING IN those with a Pything spirit of divination.

[rick6886]

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

[Bocephus]

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

Rick in this case you have talked about that goes on in some congregations, the elders are basically the same things as deacons in a Baptist church.  They don't really do anything much but powertrip and come together when they need to hire or fire a hireling preacher (that does what they should be doing).

[Cross-titled]

Maybe we should all read Alan Highers' editorial in this issue about the role of elders and it would be settled.

[Johnb]

Maybe we should all read Alan Highers' editorial in this issue about the role of elders and it would be settled.

Yea right.

[Mere Nick]

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

In our congregation the elders eld and the deacons deac.

[HRoberson]

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

Actually, this is not entirely an accurate view. In reality, preachers are generally becoming to be in charge and elders

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

In our congregation the elders eld and the deacons deac.

If elders aren't the "boss," who is (south of someone Divine)?

[rick6886]

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

In our congregation the elders eld and the deacons deac.

Eld and Deac, NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Rick

[rick6886]

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

Actually, this is not entirely an accurate view. In reality, preachers are generally becoming to be in charge and elders

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

In our congregation the elders eld and the deacons deac.

If elders aren't the "boss," who is (south of someone Divine)?

An elder should be someone who shepherds the flock and tends to its spiritual needs. Look at Tius 3:9:

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Encoraging others with sound doctrine (Spiritual), unfortunately what I have usually seen save one COC is: All decisions in this church need our approval (boss attitude).

You could argue that essentially the "boss" type functions are truly the Deacons jobs. They set the budget, they make sure the building is cared for, they make sure a brother or sister in physical need is cared for (the elder would come to pray with a person in physical need to make sure that their hearts are cared for in time of turmoil), they decide which missions are important and need to be taken care of (again the elders would pray for the missionaries themselves).

I am certainly not an advocate of no leadership, that would be anarchy. But I think too many COC's I have been a part of have missed the real leadership that Paul intended when he wrote about Overseers and Deacons.

My Humble 2 cents

Rick

[HRoberson]

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

Actually, this is not entirely an accurate view. In reality, preachers are generally becoming to be in charge and elders

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

In our congregation the elders eld and the deacons deac.

If elders aren't the "boss," who is (south of someone Divine)?

An elder should be someone who shepherds the flock and tends to its spiritual needs. Look at Tius 3:9:

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Encoraging others with sound doctrine (Spiritual), unfortunately what I have usually seen save one COC is: All decisions in this church need our approval (boss attitude).

You could argue that essentially the "boss" type functions are truly the Deacons jobs. They set the budget, they make sure the building is cared for, they make sure a brother or sister in physical need is cared for (the elder would come to pray with a person in physical need to make sure that their hearts are cared for in time of turmoil), they decide which missions are important and need to be taken care of (again the elders would pray for the missionaries themselves).

I am certainly not an advocate of no leadership, that would be anarchy. But I think too many COC's I have been a part of have missed the real leadership that Paul intended when he wrote about Overseers and Deacons.

My Humble 2 cents

Rick

If we were to change our focus from church as institution to church as a people, the elders become the holders of the faith, and are charged with maturing and protecting the people. In a community of faith, as opposed to a community of politicians, the elders' understanding of faith and the community seems to naturally put them in a position to direct that community.
We could debate whether elders need to decide the color of the next carpet, but it is quite a stretch to suggest that they should be simply pastoral counselors.

[rick6886]

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

Actually, this is not entirely an accurate view. In reality, preachers are generally becoming to be in charge and elders

I am an elder in the DoC (does not carry decision making authority like in conservative CoC) We serve a 3 year term then can step down or be nominated and serve another 3 years.  Our role is strickly in the spiritual relm. (advice, guidance, support, encouragement, and instruction)

Johnb, this is where the mainstream COC has gone completely wrong with elders, instead of being a person who shepherds and leads in matters of Spiritual importance they have become the "Boss".

If the church building needs a paint job it becomes the elders decision, if we need a sound system that is the elders decision, and so on...Frankly as I understand it, functions like painting the building should solely be the responsibility of deacons. Deacons are the guys who do the "busy work" and Elders are the ones who do the "Spitritual work".

Unfortunately in the COC hierarchy, Elders are the "Boss" and Deacons are "junior" elders aspiring to be the "boss".

My Humble 2 Cents

Rick

In our congregation the elders eld and the deacons deac.

If elders aren't the "boss," who is (south of someone Divine)?

An elder should be someone who shepherds the flock and tends to its spiritual needs. Look at Tius 3:9:

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Encoraging others with sound doctrine (Spiritual), unfortunately what I have usually seen save one COC is: All decisions in this church need our approval (boss attitude).

You could argue that essentially the "boss" type functions are truly the Deacons jobs. They set the budget, they make sure the building is cared for, they make sure a brother or sister in physical need is cared for (the elder would come to pray with a person in physical need to make sure that their hearts are cared for in time of turmoil), they decide which missions are important and need to be taken care of (again the elders would pray for the missionaries themselves).

I am certainly not an advocate of no leadership, that would be anarchy. But I think too many COC's I have been a part of have missed the real leadership that Paul intended when he wrote about Overseers and Deacons.

My Humble 2 cents

Rick

If we were to change our focus from church as institution to church as a people, the elders become the holders of the faith, and are charged with maturing and protecting the people. In a community of faith, as opposed to a community of politicians, the elders' understanding of faith and the community seems to naturally put them in a position to direct that community.
We could debate whether elders need to decide the color of the next carpet, but it is quite a stretch to suggest that they should be simply pastoral counselors.

HRoberson

Actually I agree with your assertion. I could see how you would infer counselors from my post, but all matters of Spiritual importance should be charged with the elders especially matters of faith. You said it best when the church should be viewed as people and not an institution. I think looking at it from that point of view would be a very wise place to start for anyone considering being an elder.

my humble 2 cents

Rick

[OldDad]

I notice this issue of the SS has not a single article devoted to an elder's wife having her head covered while leading singing...

[Bocephus]

I notice this issue of the SS has not a single article devoted to an elder's wife having her head covered while leading singing...

The elder's wife shouldn't be singing.  The whole silence in the assembly thing should be followed.