Todd Deaver's "Facing Our Failure"

[blituri]

The INSTRUMENTALISTS lay claim to inventing THE LAW OF SILENCE: Whatever God hath not commanded, we are free to IMPOSE and thereafter it becomes the WILL OF CHRIST. Actual quotations.  No one had to appeal to SILENCE to engage in congregational singing at the time.

Moses spoke with a SHOUT against IM

"In the first place, it will be noticed from the account of the triumphant rejoicing on the shore of the Red Sea that the men sang only: 'Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and SPAKE saying.'" (Girardeau, George, p. 33)

"In the second place, it was Miriam and the women who used instruments of music on the occasion: 'And Miriam, the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went after her with timbrels and with dances." (Girardeau, p. 33).

Of course, the women only rattled off a single phrase and did not sound the WARNING of the song always RECITED by males.

A tabret or sistrum is NOT a musical instrument and it gave its name for TOPHETH or HELL.

Here is what Miriam did which was what the Israelites did in Egypt and never ceased to do. The term Levite points to the class of musical priests performing the dionysus singing, clapping, playing and dancing and drinking lots of beer. The result of these rituals repeated at Sinai was NOT pretty.

Sistrum, a metallic rattle which was used by the Egyptians in celebrating the rites of Isis, and in other lascivious festivals,.Ov. Am. 2, 13, 11 By the Jews, Vulg. 1 Reg. [Samuel] 18, 6 .--Hence sarcastically, as if used for a war - trumpet by the wanton Cleopatra Verg. A.8.696   Luc. 10.63

They worshipped Apis the golden calveS representing the trinity of Osiris, Isis and Horus: father, mother and child.  The worship was patterned after Dionysus because of the heavey Greek influence.

Ovid, art of love
And hast thy walks around Canope's walls,
Who Memphis visit'st, and the Pharian tower,
Assist Corinna with thy friendly powers.
Thee by thy silver Sistra I conjure,
A life so precious by thy aid secure;

So mayst thou with Osiris still find grace:
By Anubis's venerable face,
I pray thee, so may still thy rights divine
Flourish, and serpents round thy offerings twine
May Apis with his horns the pomp attend, [re: golden calf]
And be to thee, as thou'rt to her, a friend.
Look down, oh Isis! on the teeming fair,

The spirit OF Christ spoke through the PROPHETS to univerally condemn music as the MARK and CAUSE of rejecting the Word. Otherwise, to prophesy meant to MAKE SELF a prophets in a singing, dancing and musical sense.

Exodus 15:[20] sumpsit ergo Maria prophetis soror Aaron tympanum in manu egressaeque sunt omnes mulieres post eam orgasm tympanis et choris

God will afflict Miriam with leprosy when she claims to speak for God.  The first meaning of prophet in the PAGAN sense meant a charismatic, musical performer.  All dramatic performance is INTERPRETATION which is, according to Paul, just speaking in tongues.

Al Maxey and other instrumentalists claim Miriam as the PATTERNISM for a female worship leader.  The prophet note that the people turned back to their Egyptian practices and brought their abominations with them. The first thing that we see of Miriam whom God denied was a PROPHET but a SOOTHSAYER.

Propheta  I. a foreteller, SOOTHSAYER prophet... oraculorumque interpretes, sacerdotes Aegyptiorum, quos prophetas vocant, [Priestess of Egypt prophetess call out] Aegyptius, propheta primarius

    PHRASE: Aegyptius, propheta primarius

        1.  Aegyptius,
        2.  Prophetai
        3.  Primarius I. one of the first, of the first rank, chief, principal, excellent, remarkable,
        primarius parasitus,

THIS IS WHAT GOD TURNED ISRAEL BACK TOO BECAUSE OF THE WORSHIP OF APIS AT MOUNT SINAI AND THEN DEMANDING A KING:

1 Chr 25:1  David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. Here is the list of the men who performed this service:

These were all FEMININE instruments and first used by males(?) after David. The Psaltery was the instrument of the prostitute, the harp derives from something vile etc. The singing style of the Hebrews was also falsetto and the garments are clearly feminine garments. The Ephod was a Babylon cape or scarf with a hole for the head: continuing among Catholics it is a vulva as all cathedrals were wombs and the doorway was a vulva and at Jerusalem with Jochin and Boaz always flanked by huge phallic poles.

Payne insists that the Hebrew of 1 Chronicles 25:1 unambiguously identifies these leaders as military commanders, an interpretation favoured by several Bible translations. (Payne, p 423-4; NASB, NIV, NKJV, NRSV, Jerusalem Bible) If military commanders had a particular interest in the appointment of musicians, it suggests a strong link between music and warfare

"The Hithpa'el of nb', in the ancient texts, refers to ecstasy and delirium rather than to the emission of a 'prophecy'." (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, p. 243 Doubleday

"Maniac inspirations, the violent possession which threw sibyls and priestesses into contortions--the foaming lip and streaming hair and glazed or glaring eyes-- have no place in the self-controlling dignity of Christian inspiration. Even Jewish prophets, in the paroxysm of emotion, might lie naked on the ground and rave (1 Sam. xix. 24); but the genuine inspiration in Christian ages never obliterates the self-consciousness or overpowers the reason. It abhors the hysteria and stimulation and frenzy which have sometimes disgraced revivalism and filled lunatic asylums." (Pulpit Commentary, 1 Cor., p. 460).

[Livelysword]

Not my addendum, Lively.  If you've been reading for the purpose of understanding, not for the purpose of rebuttal, you'll have noted that I don't even use IM.  So all that talk about "let's just" is moot to my situation.  The problem here is not whether or not you or I use them (neither of us do), it is that you want to condemn those who do, and you do so without Scriptural authority.  Nowhere do the Scriptures condemn men for such.  Only in the recesses of silence, the most dubious source of truth, do you find such, and that only by inference, and an unnecessary inference at that.

As to Hebrews 7, repeating in again does not negate that it is already been shown not to be a parallel.

Lively:  Why would you argue for what you do not practice in worship?

That's what you've been missing all along, Lively.  I'm not arguing for IM.  I'm arguing against creating "thou shalt nots" whole clothe out of silence, thereby creating prohibitions God never spoke, and binding burdens and making condemnatory judgments He has not spoken.

Lively:  The sad thing is you have come to think that silence permits... it doesn't... to go beyond what is written is sin... those who teach its ok to add instruments of music to the worship are teaching falsely... its a fallacy to think we can add anything to the worship of God he has not specifically authorized... and you have not shown in Hebrews 7 that the silence of Moses permitted other tribes to give attendance at the altar...  under such... does God have to state... thou shalt not?  NOPE... He simply states what He wants... and that is binding... to go beyond that is to sin...

Silence neither permits or restricts.  Silence is silence.  You go beyond what is written and add sins to God's Word that aren't there.  Remember the principle laid forth in Rev. 22:18-19.  REPENT.

Lively:  How about I teach you a lesson... send me 100 bucks to buy something worth about 5 bucks... I will buy it and send it to you... and then I will send back what is left over when I am done...

I don't know what 100 bucks and 5 bucks has to do with you adding to scriptures through silence.  Remember the principle laid forth in Rev. 22:18-19 and REPENT.

Lively:  It has to do with me teaching you a lesson that silence does not authorize beyond that which was spoken...  send me 100 bucks and ask me to buy something for 5 bucks and send you back the rest... and we shall see how long you hold to the fact that silence does not prohibit going beyond what you asked for that costs the 5 bucks...  maybe I will send ya back 5 bucks after I have spent 90 bucks on myself, since silence in your mind does not prohibit...

[Bocephus]

Not my addendum, Lively.  If you've been reading for the purpose of understanding, not for the purpose of rebuttal, you'll have noted that I don't even use IM.  So all that talk about "let's just" is moot to my situation.  The problem here is not whether or not you or I use them (neither of us do), it is that you want to condemn those who do, and you do so without Scriptural authority.  Nowhere do the Scriptures condemn men for such.  Only in the recesses of silence, the most dubious source of truth, do you find such, and that only by inference, and an unnecessary inference at that.

As to Hebrews 7, repeating in again does not negate that it is already been shown not to be a parallel.

Lively:  Why would you argue for what you do not practice in worship?

That's what you've been missing all along, Lively.  I'm not arguing for IM.  I'm arguing against creating "thou shalt nots" whole clothe out of silence, thereby creating prohibitions God never spoke, and binding burdens and making condemnatory judgments He has not spoken.

Lively:  The sad thing is you have come to think that silence permits... it doesn't... to go beyond what is written is sin... those who teach its ok to add instruments of music to the worship are teaching falsely... its a fallacy to think we can add anything to the worship of God he has not specifically authorized... and you have not shown in Hebrews 7 that the silence of Moses permitted other tribes to give attendance at the altar...  under such... does God have to state... thou shalt not?  NOPE... He simply states what He wants... and that is binding... to go beyond that is to sin...

Silence neither permits or restricts.  Silence is silence.  You go beyond what is written and add sins to God's Word that aren't there.  Remember the principle laid forth in Rev. 22:18-19.  REPENT.

Lively:  How about I teach you a lesson... send me 100 bucks to buy something worth about 5 bucks... I will buy it and send it to you... and then I will send back what is left over when I am done...

I don't know what 100 bucks and 5 bucks has to do with you adding to scriptures through silence.  Remember the principle laid forth in Rev. 22:18-19 and REPENT.

Lively:  It has to do with me teaching you a lesson that silence does not authorize beyond that which was spoken...  send me 100 bucks and ask me to buy something for 5 bucks and send you back the rest... and we shall see how long you hold to the fact that silence does not prohibit going beyond what you asked for that costs the 5 bucks...  maybe I will send ya back 5 bucks after I have spent 90 bucks on myself, since silence in your mind does not prohibit...

Silence is silence.  You add to God's Word through silence.  Remember the principle in Rev. 22:18-19.  REPENT!

[marc]

Lively: every time I read one of your responses, I'm struck by how little you seem to understand what is being said both to and by you.  Take some time and re-read what others have said.  Think about the difference between silence and specificity.

[blituri]

I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Amos 5:21

though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Amos 5:22

Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. Amos 5:23
But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream Amos 5:24

> For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them
        in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,
        concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jeremiah 7:22

> Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel;
       Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. Jeremiah 7:21

> For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them
       in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,
       concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jeremiah 7:22

> But this thing commanded I them, saying,
       Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people:
       and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you,
       that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7:23

> But they HEARKENED NOT, nor inclined their ear,
       but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart,
       and went backward, and not forward. Jeremiah 7:24

[Livelysword]

Lively: every time I read one of your responses, I'm struck by how little you seem to understand what is being said both to and by you.  Take some time and re-read what others have said.  Think about the difference between silence and specificity.

Lively:  Again... Silence does not permit, it prohibits...


Heb 7:13  For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14  For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.


The members of the tribe of Juda were never permitted to give attendance at the altar...  they were prohibited...

[blituri]

Doctrine is that which has been taught by Christ in person or Spirit
DOGMA is that which arises out of human opinion always to fool the fools and fleece them

But he answered and said, Every plant [Figurative to instil doctrine],
which my heavenly Father hath not planted,  [Taught doctrine, spirit breathed]
shall be rooted up. Matt 15:13

Let them alone:they be blind leaders of the blind.
And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Matt 15:14

The ditch is the same PIT which was prepared for Lucifer who brought wind, string and percussion instruments into the garden of Eden.

Isaiah 30 specificially says that HELL is prepared for Lucifer (ZOE) and all he/she/it could seduce.
The MARKS or SOUNDS of God driving His ENEMIES into hell are the same wind, string and percussion instruments.

[Livelysword]

Doctrine is that which has been taught by Christ in person or Spirit
DOGMA is that which arises out of human opinion always to fool the fools and fleece them

But he answered and said, Every plant [Figurative to instil doctrine],
which my heavenly Father hath not planted,  [Taught doctrine, spirit breathed]
shall be rooted up. Matt 15:13

Let them alone:they be blind leaders of the blind.
And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. Matt 15:14

The ditch is the same PIT which was prepared for Lucifer who brought wind, string and percussion instruments into the garden of Eden.

Isaiah 30 specificially says that HELL is prepared for Lucifer (ZOE) and all he/she/it could seduce.
The MARKS or SOUNDS of God driving His ENEMIES into hell are the same wind, string and percussion instruments.

Lively:  Give us the verses there in Gen three where the devil brought in string instruments and percussion instruments...  show that to me in chapter 3... its not there...

[DCR]

[Livelysword]

Let me Join you...   

[blituri]

Yes, POPCORN may be a SUPERNATURAL SIGN? Takes lots of heat.

Of Babylon as a type of Lucifer:

      Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy VIOLS:
      the worm is spread under thee, and the worms (maggots) cover thee. Is.14:11

      Amos 5:23 Take thou away from me the NOISE of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. Ezekiel 28:9

Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 28:10 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Ezekiel 28:11

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of TYRUS, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Ezekiel 28:12

Eze 28:13 Thou hast
      been in Eden the garden of God;
      every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl,
      the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
      the workmanship of thy TABRETS and of thy PIPES
      was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

CREATED: means to created (qualified) to cut down, selected, dispatch.

Lucifer was CAST AS PROFANE OUT OF HEAVEN: h2490 meaning to play the FLUTE, to steal people's inheritance, pollute and PROSTITUTE. What happened to Tyre also happened to Judah.

Is. 23:15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years,
       according to the days of one king:
       after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.

HERE IS THE SONG OF THE HARLOT

Is. 23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten;
      make sweet melody,
      sing many songs,
      that thou mayest be remembered. [The "king" wanted to be remembered as A MALE]

As Prince of the power of the air (Eph.2: 1-2), he is continuously broadcasting his lies and deceptions into their minds via the five sense gates. Helel works very hard in the children of disobedience (Eph.2: 1-2). Helel seldom inspires indifference to religion, as religion is his favorite form of deception. His children are usually the opposers of the true religion or energetic transgressors of the Torah (Clark's Commentary Vol.6, page 437).

When Lucifer was CAST AS PROFANE as Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG the musical word is quite identical to David's PRAISE word and to LUCIFER.  When they make a show of SIGHT and SOUND you know that Lucifer or Zoe or Halal has taken over your "church."

The PRAISE word is another spelling of h2490 Chalal and LUCIFER has the same meaning as David's PRAISE word.

In the Book of Enoch and three dozen similar accounts, when Satan used the YOUTH as musical worship ministers to seduce the holy Sethites away from the Living Word, they had fallen and knew that they could never repent--one of the MISSING STONES on Lucifer's breastplate means CANNOT REPENT.

To console themselves they tried to SEDUCE more and more and rejoiced in their own silliness: the MARK of God's WRATH is that he sends Jesters and Buffons.  In Greek Paul used it means "musical entertainers" to believe a lie and be damned.

[James.]

Lively: every time I read one of your responses, I'm struck by how little you seem to understand what is being said both to and by you.  Take some time and re-read what others have said.  Think about the difference between silence and specificity.

Lively:  Again... Silence does not permit, it prohibits...

Synagogues. 

Heb 7:13  For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14  For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.


The members of the tribe of Juda were never permitted to give attendance at the altar...  they were prohibited...

You know, the problem with having on one tool in the box is that it becomes quite obviously and woefully inadequate when asked to perform a task for which it was never intended.  It's like using a saw to remove drive a nail. 

By the way, I just remembered....did you ever find those passages in Leviticus that were said to command IM during the animal sacrifices?  Still haven't found them in my Bible, and you were quick to Amen! their existence, so I'm sure you must know where they are, right?  Please do share.  We've all been waiting.

[Livelysword]

Yes, POPCORN may be a SUPERNATURAL SIGN? Takes lots of heat.

Of Babylon as a type of Lucifer:

      Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy VIOLS:
      the worm is spread under thee, and the worms (maggots) cover thee. Is.14:11

      Amos 5:23 Take thou away from me the NOISE of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. Ezekiel 28:9

Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 28:10 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Ezekiel 28:11

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of TYRUS, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Ezekiel 28:12

Eze 28:13 Thou hast
      been in Eden the garden of God;
      every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl,
      the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
      the workmanship of thy TABRETS and of thy PIPES
      was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

CREATED: means to created (qualified) to cut down, selected, dispatch.

Lucifer was CAST AS PROFANE OUT OF HEAVEN: h2490 meaning to play the FLUTE, to steal people's inheritance, pollute and PROSTITUTE. What happened to Tyre also happened to Judah.

Is. 23:15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years,
       according to the days of one king:
       after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.

HERE IS THE SONG OF THE HARLOT

Is. 23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten;
      make sweet melody,
      sing many songs,
      that thou mayest be remembered. [The "king" wanted to be remembered as A MALE]

As Prince of the power of the air (Eph.2: 1-2), he is continuously broadcasting his lies and deceptions into their minds via the five sense gates. Helel works very hard in the children of disobedience (Eph.2: 1-2). Helel seldom inspires indifference to religion, as religion is his favorite form of deception. His children are usually the opposers of the true religion or energetic transgressors of the Torah (Clark's Commentary Vol.6, page 437).

When Lucifer was CAST AS PROFANE as Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG the musical word is quite identical to David's PRAISE word and to LUCIFER.  When they make a show of SIGHT and SOUND you know that Lucifer or Zoe or Halal has taken over your "church."

The PRAISE word is another spelling of h2490 Chalal and LUCIFER has the same meaning as David's PRAISE word.

In the Book of Enoch and three dozen similar accounts, when Satan used the YOUTH as musical worship ministers to seduce the holy Sethites away from the Living Word, they had fallen and knew that they could never repent--one of the MISSING STONES on Lucifer's breastplate means CANNOT REPENT.

To console themselves they tried to SEDUCE more and more and rejoiced in their own silliness: the MARK of God's WRATH is that he sends Jesters and Buffons.  In Greek Paul used it means "musical entertainers" to believe a lie and be damned.

Lively:  You are saying this verse in 1Kings 1:40... allows us today to play instruments of music in the worship....


1Ki 1:40  And all the people came up after him, and the people piped with pipes, and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth rent with the sound of them.


This event is not even in the worship of God... it is Zadok the priest taking Solomon on the Donkey to make Him King of Israel...  next thing we know we will be using verses like the following to say we may have instruments of music in the NT church worship.. it does not...

Luk 15:25  Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

[DCR]

No, I don't think blituri is saying that anything allows us to play instruments of music in worship today... far from it, I suspect.

Just keep reading him.  Yes... I know he's hard to understand.

[zoonance]

Let me Join you...   

One man's conviction is another man's absurdity.