Which are COC'rs more concerned with....?

[zoonance]

Blituri, you have convinced me.  I no longer consider accompaniment with instrumental music in worship a sin.

[zoonance]

Why does the church have to look like the first century?  Were the israelites commanded to be suspended in time for 1500 years and the church was commanded to be suspended in time for 2000+ now?  I live in 2009.  Where does the bible state that we are suppossed to be frozen in time?


I think I'll start a new thread on this idea instead.

[blituri]

I'ts fine to add SINGING and INSTRUMENTS, according to history, if you are a Gnostic fringe group.

But, to be an EKKLESIA or School of the Bible, you would first have to hallucinate a place for SINGING when Jesus is oour teacher ONLY when the elders "teach that which has been taught.

If you can sing "itzy bitzy spider" when Jesus is SPEAKING to us when we read His words, then you should start a NEW CHURCH and not steal those bought by widows and honest working people.

But, then you will have to hallucinate FUNDING because PREACHING by READING is an "unfunded mandate." Guess you will have to lie to the ladies on wellfare that they MUST tithe to support the Team.

Again, NO ONE has trouble when they understand that the Church of Christ in the wilderness was to REST from the pagan Sabbath worship, READ and rehearse the word. EXCLUDED was "vocal or instrumental rejoicing."

If you want to get UP TO DATE you will have to leave the Word behind and therefore you MUST and WILL remove Christ from your public confession.

Maybe you can get us a 2009 latest model of God? 

And, for heaven's sake, the PERSONA of religious singing groups with or without instruments is TOO BAD to mention: so why would you want to be part of a group whose very persona and "singing style" causes 1/3 to 1/2 of the owners to flee without looking back?  Beats me: maybe some bird has picked up ALL of the seed.

[zoonance]

I thought we were worshipping a 6000 BC God, a 2000 BC God, a 33 AD God, a 1000 AD God, a 2009 God.  He knows us better than we know Him.   There is no latest model.  Only the original.  He seems fine with our development and talents as long as we use them for His gloryl.

[blituri]

One of the things we learned in Card Class that the command is to TEACH and the resource is THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN.  Greek geeks should but don't know that the word SPEAK is the opposite of poetry and music. First, the testimony is that "men set their lies to melodies to deceive the simple minded" and that "music appealed only to the lowere classes who did not have the ability to carry on a converstation without wine and the flute girls.

No one was so simple that they thought that SINGING was a ACT (law) of worship AFTER they knew that church is "a school of the Bible" and that Jesus died to remove the laded burdens (songs) and burden laders (Scribes, Pharisees as hypocrites defined as speakers, singers and instrument players."

Ephraim the Syrian and Aphrahat the Persian Sage and other resources.  year 373

To Ephraim pertains the high and unique distinction of having originated-or at least given its living impulse to-a new departure in sacred literature; and that, not for his own country merely, but for Christendom.

    From him came, if not the first idea, at all events the first successful example,
    of making song an essential constituent of public worship,
    and an exponent of theological teaching;
    and from him it spread and prevailed through
    the Eastern Churches, and affected even those of the West.

To the Hymns, on which chiefly his fame rests, the Syriac ritual in all its forms owes much of its strength and richness; and to them is largely due the place which Hymnody holds throughout the Church everywhere.

[Syria is of course Assyria which is the mortal enemy of God's Word. The "Assyrians" were the "tallest trees in Eden" and the NAME of those nations which are seduced into the wind, string and percussion instruments She (Lucifer Zoe) brought into the garden of Eden as the singing and harp playing prostitute.

And hence it has come to pass that, in the Church everywhere, he stands as the representative Syrian Father, as the fixed epithet appended to his name attests-" Ephraim the Syrian,"-the one Syrian known and reverenced in all Christendom.

From a few lines of Proba's work can be seen the problems with this approach: little of what was created could justifiably be placed alongside the great works of the past, and since that was an implicit target the failure to meet it was embarrassing;

            more pressingly, such Christianisations did not appeal to the highly EDUCATED
            who preferred to read the imitated originals,
            and did not appeal to Christians who would not otherwise have read the originals,
            who needed something written to their own culture and not to that of a past elite. 

This kind of imitation had its brief flourishing at the time of the emperor Julian, who forbade Christians to teach pagan works, but had no lasting effect.

In the Greek-speaking world the hymns that became a part of the Church's ritual were in rhythmic prose like that of their Eastern models;
    in the West Latin hymnody had to catch up with changes in the spoken language,
            where syllables were no longer divided by quantity,
            and stress had become decisive.

Rhymic prose is Paul's word SPEAK or SING in which a hymn is defined as "in the form of Hebrew Cantillation."

Arius, like Bardesan and Ephraem, used the genre of the theological song, music as propaganda. Besides the Thalia, Arius is said to have written and set to music songs for sailors, millers and travellers.  Valentinus too had written psalms to spread his opinions.

Augustine provides a vivid example of the way music was used to promote a theological cause in the acrostic song he wrote detailing the mistakes and wrongs of the Donatists.

As with many other Christian developments, it seems that heretics catalysed the emergence of the Christian hymn in the fourth-century.

That there really were significant new developments at this time is most easily seen later in the century, in the West. Augustine, among others, tells us about Ambrose's introduction of new musical practices from the East.

    The Arian Justina, Valentinian's mother, was persecuting the orthodox congregation of Milan;

    'The decision was taken to introduce hymns and psalms sung after the custom of the eastern Churches,
            to prevent the people from succumbing to depression and exhaustion.

Harold Bloom identifies some American religions is "Gnostic, with no connection to historic Christianity

From that time to this day the practice has been retained and many, indeed almost all your flocks, in other parts of the world have imitated it. It is clear that the new practices, introduced at Milan during a time of difficulty, were intended to appeal to the congregation, and that they were successful in doing so:

    people sang 'with both heart and voice in a state of high enthusiasm' these characteristics had previously
    recommended similar practices to fringe groups: from an orthodox viewpoint,
               heretics, schismatics, and gnostics.

Not in the vilest pagan temples could singers or instrument players enter into the holy places. The Church of Christ is the Body of Christ and was typified by the Holy Place. 

That happened gradually beginning in the year 373: why would anyone think that the Church pledged to teach "that which Christ commanded" in order to be defined as "Christian," use THEIR OWN silly songs and non-Biblical sermons and DELIVER them in direct violation of the Commands, examples and historic practices of the faithful church?

[zoonance]

So the building is the Holy Place!  No wonder IM is not allowed.

[Bocephus]

So the building is the Holy Place!  No wonder IM is not allowed.

Congregational use of pitch pipes are allowed though.

[blituri]

The Holy Place in the TABERNACLE was a type of the Church of Christ headquartered in heaven with no VICARS.

Only priests could enter the Holy Place. The priest accepted the blood sacrifice and was washed: the Laver in the later temple is defined as 7 feet deep. That is the meaning of baptism: head over heels in water.

Only those were ADDED to the Church of Christ BY Christ after they were saved after baptism with A holy or sanctified personal spirit.

The Holy Place is INCLUSIVE and EXCLUSIVE of the role of the Church of Christ.

The Menorah its seven flickering flames resting on the BRANCH are the seven spirits of God which rested ON Jesus Christ: in Isaiah 11 these are all forms of DIVINE TRUTH.  No human can add their own "oil" or their own bright new floodlight to the seven.

The Table of Bread represented all of the nation. The Lord's Supper is not for party-girls to sing, clap, hum or play instruments: to show forth is an evangelism act.  We teach the death of Christ as we CONFESS Christ so that He will confess us.

The incense altar was approached as one looked into the most holy place. Only "priests" of God have the right to come before the Throne of Grace.  In Revelation when they HOLD the harps of God (not David's" they offer the Fruit of the Lips. In Isaiah 55 Christ in Spirit outlawed spending our bread money for the free water of the Word. In Isaiah 58 defining the true REST, he outlawed seeking our own pleasure or SPEAKING OUR OWN WORDS.  Neither the ekklesia or synagogue could ORIGINATE the material which they were to hear, discuss and assimilate.

The Church of Christ:

Is. 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity,
       whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place,
       with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
       to revive the spirit of the humble,
       and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

The Laded Burdens in both Hebrew and Greek are songs which arouse spiritual anxiety. The word is specificially defined as the SINGING word which includes lots of repeating of the chorus. Medical science now knows that it causes the spiritual anxiety for which many people take pills to tolerate the impulse like being attacked by a Saber Toothed tiger.

Is. 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; [the only WAY to keep peace-
       Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near,
       saith the LORD; and I will heal him.

Jesus pointed to Isaiah and Ezekiel which marked the Scribes and Pharisees (waged) as hypocrites by naming speakers, singera and instrument players. John calls them sorcerers:

      Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say,
            Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
            and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
      Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross,
            and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed;
            lest they should see with their eyes, [we see and therefore worship the PERFORMERS]
            and hear with their ears, [We hear the preacher and singers fabricating text]
            and understand with their heart, [cant remember the sermon 30 minutes later]
            and should be converted, [be baptized]
            and I should heal them. [given A holy spirit]

Those who deliberately sow discord without a personal choice left:

Is. 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea,
      when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
Is. 57:21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

No one plays a harp of David in the Church.
No one makes instrumental noise when WE offer our individual prayers to God.

Even in the TYPE which applied only to the FLESH could a singer or instrument player enter into the type of the body of Christ or Church of Christ without being executed: they could not even come NEAR any holy thing in the Tabernacle.

If you see the Tabernacle as a figure of the BODY of Christ it rests on the two legs of sacrifice and baptism. Then, you can enter into the BODY of Christ without instruments or personal LAMPS.

Our worship is in the PLACE of our own SPIRIT as the only place where God appears to accept our prayers.  The Most Holy Place is the heavenly Zion where God listens to our prayers.

The Levitical Warrior musicians were demoted when as prophesied in Psalm 41 they  were to musically mock Jesus right up to the cross.

Ezekiel and Josephus prove that it was the LEVITES who brought on national destruction and they wanted to AGAIN be clothed in the linen garments (female dress) and perform the musical roles to give glory to the KING'S COURT as they did in the beginning.

http://www.piney.com/Ant-20.html

John calling them SORCERERS says that they HAD deceived the whole world and were responsible for the murder of Christ's prophets.  I suggest that symbolized as LOCUSTS (Muses) they have been unleashed again for the final time.  I believe that it is significant that they CULLING OUT those with the music mark  has had such a small HARVEST OF SHAME in the Church of Christ.  A larger harvest has been among the PROGRESSIVES (Jay Guin's new list) which AFFIRMS that instruments are approved.

[Johnb]

And this relates to the OP topic how?

[Livelysword]

So the building is the Holy Place!  No wonder IM is not allowed.

Congregational use of pitch pipes are allowed though.

Lively:    http://southside-churchofchrist.com/basics/docs/BibleAthrty6.pdf

[zoonance]

So the building is the Holy Place!  No wonder IM is not allowed.

Congregational use of pitch pipes are allowed though.

Lively:    http://southside-churchofchrist.com/basics/docs/BibleAthrty6.pdf

talk about irony

[Snargles]

So the building is the Holy Place!  No wonder IM is not allowed.

Congregational use of pitch pipes are allowed though.

Lively:    http://southside-churchofchrist.com/basics/docs/BibleAthrty6.pdf

Lively, I get a "You do not have permision to access" warning. What am I missing?

[Livelysword]

So the building is the Holy Place!  No wonder IM is not allowed.

Congregational use of pitch pipes are allowed though.

Lively:    http://southside-churchofchrist.com/basics/docs/BibleAthrty6.pdf

Lively, I get a "You do not have permision to access" warning. What am I missing?

Lively:   A three page outline of establishing biblical authority... which speaks towards pitch pipes...  but I just found something on You Tube I think might be of help... this shows the same basic arguments we have discussed here over and over... feel free to look at this four part discussion... trust me when I say it is worth hearing...  Here are the four links...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Qzum8qSko&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C71bAYBC8VQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8ZIXox56Cg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op0KsLljzvc&feature=related

[HRoberson]

So the building is the Holy Place!  No wonder IM is not allowed.

Congregational use of pitch pipes are allowed though.

Lively:    http://southside-churchofchrist.com/basics/docs/BibleAthrty6.pdf

If you go to the basic page, and then follow the tree to the sixth document dealing with Bible Authority, you can get it.

It is amazing though, that there are so many rules associated with expediencies.

Well, maybe not, given the folks that make these rules - no loopholes allowed you know.

[Snargles]

I found the pitch pipe reference but I was disappointed that it didn't amount to much.
I don't understand how church buildings are authorized but gyms aren't. It seems like there is as much scriptural authority for one as for the other. Considering Paul's sports metaphors, he might have prefered the gym.