Which are COC'rs more concerned with....?

[blituri]

The synagogue and ekklesia were both the people who gathered and the CHURCH HOUSES.

Psa. 74:8 They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.

H4150 mô‛êd mô‛êd mô‛âdâh mo-ade', mo-ade', mo-aw-daw' From H3259 ; properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand):—appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed)

Jesus assembled in SYNAGOGUES each Sabbath to teach and the Word spread outward.  We have the command for a set-time-place and many approved examples of HOUSES.  It probably a necessary inference that God gave us enough common sense to build a shelter out of the rain and snow.  The local church divided in part because of the GYMN and it now stands mostly empty because the parents and children saw it pretty much as an insult.

The function of the synagogue was to be a school of the Word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The command for the church in the wilderness as a school of Moses is as the ekklesia a school of Christ (says the Campbells also).  There are many things conducive to being a Bible School required: you don't need a command for a toilet which in Jerusalem etc probably had running water.

A gymnasium is not REQUIRED to be a school of the Bible and you will find the Methodist's gym empty most of the time.  The church is for GODLY EXERCISES which can and do take several forms.  However, if done right the singing, preaching, teaching and the Lord's Supper are all directed TOWARD Jesus Christ and not to the stirring up of the flesh which Jesus outlawed.

A GYM was always the mark of bad things: a gym was build during the Intertestament period and the naked exercises lead to many homosexual outbreaks. That even spread into the Temple (where people did not go) as the abomination of desolation.

[Snargles]

1. "the Methodists gym is empty most of the time."
Our church building is empty most of the time; we meet Sun AM, Sun PM, Wed PM, and on a few other special occassions.

2. "if done right the singing, preaching, teaching and Lords Supper are all directed townard Jesus Christ"
You are always telling us we are supposed to chant or speak, not sing.

3. "the naked exercises lead to many homosexual outbreaks"
Not too many gyms ban clothes these days (although the local YMCA used to have a naked only policy in the men's pool)

4. We have an example of meeting in houses and perhaps rented rooms but no CENI for spending church money to build a church building. If we can put up meeting halls we can also put up storage building, parking lot lights and gyms.

[OkiMar]

It should be most concerned with seeking and saving the lost, but that requires work.

[Livelysword]

1. "the Methodists gym is empty most of the time."
Our church building is empty most of the time; we meet Sun AM, Sun PM, Wed PM, and on a few other special occassions.

2. "if done right the singing, preaching, teaching and Lords Supper are all directed townard Jesus Christ"
You are always telling us we are supposed to chant or speak, not sing.

3. "the naked exercises lead to many homosexual outbreaks"
Not too many gyms ban clothes these days (although the local YMCA used to have a naked only policy in the men's pool)

4. We have an example of meeting in houses and perhaps rented rooms but no CENI for spending church money to build a church building. If we can put up meeting halls we can also put up storage building, parking lot lights and gyms.

Lively:  Were the synagogues rented buildings or purchased buildings?


Luk 7:5  For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.


Who built all the other ones and where did the money for them come from?


Isa 1:18  Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

[Snargles]

1. "the Methodists gym is empty most of the time."
Our church building is empty most of the time; we meet Sun AM, Sun PM, Wed PM, and on a few other special occassions.

2. "if done right the singing, preaching, teaching and Lords Supper are all directed townard Jesus Christ"
You are always telling us we are supposed to chant or speak, not sing.

3. "the naked exercises lead to many homosexual outbreaks"
Not too many gyms ban clothes these days (although the local YMCA used to have a naked only policy in the men's pool)

4. We have an example of meeting in houses and perhaps rented rooms but no CENI for spending church money to build a church building. If we can put up meeting halls we can also put up storage building, parking lot lights and gyms.

Lively:  Were the synagogues rented buildings or purchased buildings?


Luk 7:5  For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.


Who built all the other ones and where did the money for them come from?


Isa 1:18  Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Two honest questions here (sometimes we just mess with you)

1. Does CENI apply to stuff that happened in the OT or only the NT?

2. Where did the money come from to build and operate synagogues (synagogues, not the temple)?

[Livelysword]

1. "the Methodists gym is empty most of the time."
Our church building is empty most of the time; we meet Sun AM, Sun PM, Wed PM, and on a few other special occassions.

2. "if done right the singing, preaching, teaching and Lords Supper are all directed townard Jesus Christ"
You are always telling us we are supposed to chant or speak, not sing.

3. "the naked exercises lead to many homosexual outbreaks"
Not too many gyms ban clothes these days (although the local YMCA used to have a naked only policy in the men's pool)

4. We have an example of meeting in houses and perhaps rented rooms but no CENI for spending church money to build a church building. If we can put up meeting halls we can also put up storage building, parking lot lights and gyms.

Lively:  Were the synagogues rented buildings or purchased buildings?


Luk 7:5  For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.


Who built all the other ones and where did the money for them come from?


Isa 1:18  Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Two honest questions here (sometimes we just mess with you)

1. Does CENI apply to stuff that happened in the OT or only the NT?

2. Where did the money come from to build and operate synagogues (synagogues, not the temple)?

Lively:

1.  CENIS did apply in the OT... Jesus referred to it when Moses was at the bush and God stated he was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Since God is not the God of the dead, there must be a resurrection, for all live unto God.   The term Resurrection was never used in the OT.   But the concept was taught... As Peter referred to it when discussing David speaking by the Holy Ghost... concerning Christ and the resurrection...


Act 2:31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Yet David never used the term resurrection.   The Pharisees believed there would be a resurrection, the Sadducees did not believe there would be a resurrection.


Act 23:8  For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.


2.  Where did the money come from?  The people.  Same place money comes from to build churches of Christ... the people...


Isn't it nice to get your questions answered...

[Johnb]

Now which of those 2 groups was Jesus usually condemning?  Was it the one that got Resurrection right  or the group that got it wrong?

[Livelysword]

Now which of those 2 groups was Jesus usually condemning?  Was it the one that got Resurrection right  or the group that got it wrong?

Lively:  The better question was, over the understanding of the resurrection, which of the two was put to silence for their understanding of the resurrection?


Mat 22:23  The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
Mat 22:24  Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mat 22:25  Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
Mat 22:26  Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
Mat 22:27  And last of all the woman died also.
Mat 22:28  Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
Mat 22:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31  But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mat 22:33  And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
Mat 22:34  But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.


Now, if you want to talk apples to apples and oranges to oranges...  Was the Lord condemning the Pharisees for their understanding of the resurrection, or because of their hypocrisy?  For keeping the law or for not keeping the law?   Jesus never condemned the Pharisees for keeping the law, but for not keeping the law...


Mat 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

[Johnb]

Does not matter.  That i why I ask the question because I knew what your answer would be.  The point is both groups were wrong.  Salvation has always been by faith not by proper keeping of the law.  Heb 11  (God's hall of faith)

[Norton]

Lively

Was worship in the synagogues authorized in the OT?

[blituri]

I think I will butt in:

Was worship in the synagogues authorized in the OT?

Absolutely authorized and defined in detail in the wilderness after the Levi tribe was turned over to worship the starry host as part of the Civil-Military-Priestly complex Christ in the prophets calls robbers and parasites.

It was INCLUSIVE of Rest (what means sabbath), Reading and Rehearsing the Word of God.

It was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing.

Just a DIRECT COMMAND and minimal common decency when the synagogue never changed from being "a school of the word" which "never had a praise service."

Jesus exampled that in the synagogues and His "ekklesia" was like the synagogue a WORD ONLY assembly.  The Church of Christ (using that name) never changed that until close to the year 400.

[Norton]

Ken

OK to butt in, but I was hoping for book ,chapter, and verse.  Command, approved example, or necessary inference. I think the Israelites were to hold a "sacred assembly" after certain sacrifices, but I can't remember or find how often or what they were to do in the assemblies.

[Livelysword]

Does not matter.  That i why I ask the question because I knew what your answer would be.  The point is both groups were wrong.  Salvation has always been by faith not by proper keeping of the law.  Heb 11  (God's hall of faith)

Lively:  Faith does not keep one from sinning...  people still sin even though we are not under the law but under grace...  regardless of faith under the law of Moses, even those whom are listed in the hall of faith under the Mosaic law, had to keep the law.   


Joh 7:19  Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?


Again, Jesus did not condemn them for keeping the law, but for not keeping it.



Mat 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Is it not stated that faith here is one of the weightier matters of the law, along with judgment and mercy...


Here is the problem...  Context is everything...



Mat 23:1  Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2  Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4  For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5  But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6  And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7  And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8  But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10  Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11  But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12  And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

[Livelysword]

Lively

Was worship in the synagogues authorized in the OT?

Lively:  From what I see in the NT, it was...  they were in use long before the time of Christ, and if they were not authorized, then Christ himself would not have used them...  the building is nothing but a place to sit and read and worship in... that could be accomplished anywhere, even without a building...  when God allowed the temple to be destroyed and Babylon take the children of Israel captive to their country, the people still needed to worship God...  where did Daniel worship?  What did Solomon say when the temple was dedicated?


1Ki 8:27  But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
1Ki 8:28  Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:
1Ki 8:29  That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.
1Ki 8:30  And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.
1Ki 8:31  If any man trespass against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to cause him to swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house:
1Ki 8:32  Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.
1Ki 8:33  When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house:
1Ki 8:34  Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest unto their fathers.


however, the word synagogue is not used in the OT....  but synagogues are in use at the start of the NT, and appears to have been for awhile... nothing is ever spoken that they should not have been... and the fact that Jesus uses them to me gives clear authority for their use.


Joh 4:20  Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

[Snargles]

if they were not authorized, then Christ himself would not have used them... 

This assumes Christ believed in CENI.

I would like a command from God, recorded in the OT, that says "You shall workship in the synagogue" or least an example of synagogue worship in the the OT.

Other things that the Jews did without authorization are observing Purim and Hanukkah.

If synagogue worship was OK by Jesus and if there is no CENI for it in the OT then it seems we should replace CENI with "Do what it takes to get the job done."