Who Are the Churches of Christ?

[James.]

And not a necessary one.  A big mistake by many who think they understand CENI is to mistake any ol' inference as being a necessary inference.  Necessary, in that hermeneutic, means that no other conclusion can possible be drawn with the information given, thus the only conclusion one can, and indeed must, make is X.  Unfortunately, lively's inference here is nowhere near that tightly conclusive, despite protestations otherwise.

[zoonance]

Later leaders in Churches of Christ erroneously assumed that because Campbell hadn't written more about the personal indwelling of the Spirit that he must not have believed in it.

What did he write about it?  Do you have some quotes or references that demonstrate what Campbell's beliefs were regarding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

What was Cambell's insight on abortion?  on gay marriage?  on stem cell research?

[Lee Freeman]

Later leaders in Churches of Christ erroneously assumed that because Campbell hadn't written more about the personal indwelling of the Spirit that he must not have believed in it.

What did he write about it?  Do you have some quotes or references that demonstrate what Campbell's beliefs were regarding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

What was Cambell's insight on abortion?  on gay marriage?  on stem cell research?

Here are a few Campbell quotations regarding the indwelling of the Spirit.

From the CB 1, 1824:

Before the Holy Spirit can be received, the heart must be purified; before the heart can be purified, guilt must be removed from the conscience; and before guilt can be removed from the conscience, there must be a sense, a feeling, or an assurance than [sic] sin is pardoned and transgression covered. For obtaining this, there must be some appointed way--and that means or way, is immersion into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

From Chapter XX, "The Gift of the Holy Spirit," in The Christian System, 2nd ed.:

II. We also have believed all this, repented of our sins, and been immersed into Christ. We have assumed him as our Leader, our Prophet, Priest, and King; and put ourselves under his guidance. Having disowned the great apostate and his ranks, and enlisted under the Messiah, and taken sides with the Lord's Anointed, he now proposes to put his Holy Spirit within us, to furnish us for the good fight of faith, and to anoint us as the sons and heirs of God. . . .

And according to Christian Church evangelist Joseph King, in his 1866 "A Memorial Sermon on the Occasion of the Death of Alexander Campbell," Campbell taught that:

. . . the Holy Spirit is given to dwell with, and to be in those who obey the gospel. He rejoiced in the indwelling and communion of the Holy Spirit. . . .

In the full inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, the divinity of our Saviour, the atonement made by his death for sin, the influence of the Holy Spirit through the truth in conversion and sanctification, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the resurrection of the dead, and the opposite destinies of the righteous and the wicked, Mr. Campbell had full faith.

In his 1834 MH Gift of the Holy Spirit, Campbell summarizes the section on the indwelling by saying:

From all which the following conclusion is inevitable, that the phrase, "the gift of the Holy Spirit," means the Holy Spirit himself given, as foretold by Joel, and vouchsafed to Jews and Gentiles at the erection of the kingdom of the Messiah, and on their admission into it.

More later.

Of course Campbell would've been against abortion and gay marriage.

Pax.

[DCR]

Later leaders in Churches of Christ erroneously assumed that because Campbell hadn't written more about the personal indwelling of the Spirit that he must not have believed in it.

What did he write about it?  Do you have some quotes or references that demonstrate what Campbell's beliefs were regarding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

What was Cambell's insight on abortion?  on gay marriage?  on stem cell research?

Make it even more current.  What about his views on the stimulus package?  The bail-outs?  Illegal immigration?  The swine flu?

[DCR]

Here are a few Campbell quotations regarding the indwelling of the Spirit.

Thanks, Lee.

[Mere Nick]

Make it even more current.  What about his views on the stimulus package?  The bail-outs?  Illegal immigration?  The swine flu?

I'd bet $5 he'd be against the swine flu.

[Livelysword]

Lively:  You do not have a clue as to what is being taught in 1Cor 13....

Sure I do. Read the relevant chapters in context. As I said before, the context of I Corinthians 13 and 14 is the Corinthians trying to outdo one another by showing off their spiritual gifts. Paul tells them that spiritual gifts are not given to show off but to benefit the Church, and that without love they are worthless. Then Paul informs them that while love is an eternal, unchanging constant, spiritual gifts are given to serve a specific need of the church then are gone until needed again. But according to Scripture, spiritual gifts take many forms, and are not always miraculous manifestations

Nowhere does the text indicate a specific timeline for the cessation of spiritual gifts. That's an inference.

Pax.

Lively:  well actually it does give a time line for the cessation of spiritual gifts... it is clearly given in...


1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


How do I know this has to do with the cessation of spiritual gifts?  Well if we follow the context as you stated from Chapter 12 on... the first thing stated in Chapter 12 is... now concerning spiritual gifts... then ends the chapter stating... to covet earnestly the best gifts... yet I show unto you a better way...  Chapter 13 lays out the cessation of the spiritual gifts when that which is perfect is come, then the gifts would cease...  the problem you and so many others have is understanding what that which is perfect is speaking of... and that is what it comes down to... and clearly you have not understood what is being spoken of in the chapter when it comes to that which is perfect... and that within the context of the chapter or chapters...

[memmy]

Hmm, wonder why when they were writing the scriptures down, they didn't say, "now that the perfect has come......"? I mean after all, it was being written by those same ones who were being inspired by the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't they have said, "the perfect word of God is written down, so now the spiritual gifts have ceased"?

[blonddad]

Aside from the traditional CofC interpretation of the "perfect" being the New Testament let me offer a couple of other possible meanings. Perhaps the meaning was when the early church came to "maturity" it would no longer need the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. This fits the context (v.11). When the church could get to the point where they could love in such a way as Paul described earlier in the chapter the gifts of tongues, prophecy, etc. would no longer be needed.

Another way to understand Paul's meaning is when the "completion" came the gifts would cease. The completion being the complete fulfillment of God's plan and timeframe. When God's stamp of approval (so to speak) of the church would be made evident by the complete annihilation of the competing Jewish system of worship there would be no need of the miraculous to show who had received favor from God. It would be made clear that Jesus was the Christ and that salvation is now found in Him alone.

Grace and peace 

[Lee Freeman]

Lively:  You do not have a clue as to what is being taught in 1Cor 13....

Sure I do. Read the relevant chapters in context. As I said before, the context of I Corinthians 13 and 14 is the Corinthians trying to outdo one another by showing off their spiritual gifts. Paul tells them that spiritual gifts are not given to show off but to benefit the Church, and that without love they are worthless. Then Paul informs them that while love is an eternal, unchanging constant, spiritual gifts are given to serve a specific need of the church then are gone until needed again. But according to Scripture, spiritual gifts take many forms, and are not always miraculous manifestations

Nowhere does the text indicate a specific timeline for the cessation of spiritual gifts. That's an inference.

Pax.

Lively:  well actually it does give a time line for the cessation of spiritual gifts... it is clearly given in...


1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


How do I know this has to do with the cessation of spiritual gifts?  Well if we follow the context as you stated from Chapter 12 on... the first thing stated in Chapter 12 is... now concerning spiritual gifts... then ends the chapter stating... to covet earnestly the best gifts... yet I show unto you a better way...  Chapter 13 lays out the cessation of the spiritual gifts when that which is perfect is come, then the gifts would cease...  the problem you and so many others have is understanding what that which is perfect is speaking of... and that is what it comes down to... and clearly you have not understood what is being spoken of in the chapter when it comes to that which is perfect... and that within the context of the chapter or chapters...

But what is meant by "the perfect?" The text doesn't clarify this and many sincere people understand that phrase in different ways. But then there are vagaries in translation. For example, the NIV translates the last half of 19 as "but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears." The NRSV renders it as "when the complete comes. . . "

You would probably say "the perfect" refers to the New Testament, but this isn't plain from the text. I think The Message gets close to Paul's intent:

But it's obvious by now, isn't it, that Christ's church is a complete Body and not a gigantic, unidimensional Part? It's not all Apostle, not all Prophet, not all Miracle Worker, not all Healer, not all Prayer in Tongues, not all Interpreter of Tongues. And yet some of you keep competing for so-called "important" parts.

   But now I want to lay out a far better way for you.

If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. . . . Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.

Paul's point was that while spiritual gifts are temporal, given at a specific time for a specific purpose, love is an eternal constant. The point of I Corinthians 13-14 isn't to provide a timeline for the end of spiritual gifts, but to remind them why spiritual gifts are given by God, and that they can't be used the way God intended if they are exercised without love, and that the gifts themselves are merely temporary tools to be used in the service of the Church, whereas love will endure forever.

One reason I don't use the KJV for serious study is because of its archaic, outdated language. It was probably the best translation going when the Church of England produced it in 1611 but since then much more accurate translations are available in modern language. Alexander Campbell himself did not use the KJV-he produced his own "modern" version in 1825. Most folks in the CoC until the 1920s used Campbell's Living Oracles or the RSV. The way a passage is translated has a lot to do with how people read/interpret it. I think there are better, more accurate word choices than "the perfect" that better set out Paul's meaning in I Corinthians 19.

So, with all due respect I think it is you and other traditionalists who don't understand this passage because you read it through your preconditioned Church of Christ blinders. I know, because I used to read it the same way. The way I was taught. For a long time I couldn't understand the very real difference between the actual words on the page, and my interpretation of the words.

Pax.

[Livelysword]

Hmm, wonder why when they were writing the scriptures down, they didn't say, "now that the perfect has come......"? I mean after all, it was being written by those same ones who were being inspired by the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't they have said, "the perfect word of God is written down, so now the spiritual gifts have ceased"?

Lively:  When Paul was writing 1Corinthians... there was a lot of the NT which had not been written yet...  he is speaking future tense... when that which is perfect is come... if he uses the term as you state... now that the perfect has come... would be an incorrect statement if the full revelation of Jesus Christ had not yet been given...  Paul is accurate in what he states, when that which is perfect is come... since the full revelation has not yet been given...  but he is telling them he is showing unto them a more perfect way...  that the gifts will cease when that which is perfect is come... the word perfect is also understood as complete... obviously Paul is stating it is not complete at this point and time... but it is coming soon... and I know soon because he is telling them he is going to show them a more perfect way...

[marc]

So now I'm sittin' home investigatin' myself!
Hope I don't find out anything

[zoonance]

From the opinion page from the Christian Chronicle.  We all know that we don't monopolize "issues".   I am proud of my roots and my congregation, even if I don't agree with everything.   Simply seeking an alternative is not how one finds the perfect church.  Many on the Forum seek to prove the church of Christ inferiority as a choice.  We have strengths that "they" need to emulate.  They have strengths we need to emulate.  Humans are still humans and will always be human.

"In 2001, I left the churches of Christ and took a position as a worship minister in an Independent Christian Church. I am now the Senior Pastor in another Christian Church. I thought that in leaving the C of C that I would be going into a fellowship that was warmer and more loving and perhaps a little less dogmatic and schizmatic. Yet, what I've found in the Instrumental Churches is that the same problems exist here as in the Church of Christ, with the exception of instrumental music. There is extreme legalism and extreme liberalism and all flavors in between. There is much division over a multiplicity of issues. However, what often happens in Independent Christian Churches is that people disagree but stay together and become angry, bitter, and very hateful with each other. The result is that the health of the church is compromised and energy that could be spent on reaching people for Jesus is instead expended on biting and devouring each other. I've now served two Independent Christian Churches and I would tell anyone that I have been lied to, lied about, slandered and maligned more in the eight years I've been in the Christian Church than the previous 20 years that I served Churches of Christ. Additionally, what I've found among this segment of the Restoration Movement is that the people in the pew are grossly ignorant of biblical truths and are apt to follow any charismatic leader and swallow his teaching without checking it out in the Word. The ONLY issue upon which Christian Churches generally are immoveable, is the doctrine of baptism. I firmly believe that in many of our churches a preacher could teach error on many subjects - at first subtly - as long as he taught the traditional view of water baptism - and such teaching wouldn't cause the slightest ripple on the water. While I still believe that the Church of Christ is far too narrow and dogmatic in most instances, I do appreciate the love for the Lord and His Word and the spiritual training that I received in the church. And, I am concerned that far too many in the fellowship of which I am now a part are so abysmally ignorant biblically that they wouldn't be able to discern between the truth of God and counterfeit religion. Thank you for your articles regarding decline in church growth as well as those dealing with other issues, good and bad, in the non-instrumental churches. Keep up the good work. James Kisner Painted Post, NY
 James Kisner
Painted Post, NY - United States
March 26, 2009 "



As an example of emphasizing single points: I suspect that as long as some preachers preach "salvation by grace" a ton of ignorance would be permitted.  You could think of a myriad of 'favorites' that would allow a plethora of false as long as THE biggie is left alone in any particular group.

[LittlePinky82]

Lee,

If you were to read that at the average 'conservative' Church of Christ, you would be shouted down for saying the origin is in the 19th century, as a reform of the Reformation, rather than as the one church founded by Christ and announced with Peter's Pentecost sermon.

Oh that is so true!

[LittlePinky82]

I can appreciate the history lesson on the RM and how the CoC and DoC came about but I think Garrett is correct in his book that there is an air of elitism found within the "brotherhood" today that in my opinion sours the entire movement to restore the church to God's original standards.   

After 30+ years in the CoC I can see where so much of the original principles of RM theology has been reduced to something that looks good on paper and sounds right, but in reality still misses the mark. I'm just not convinced  that our hope of salvation comes from belonging to a church that has RM principles as much as I think it's all about having faith and conviction in Jesus as Lord.

Well remember the first Christian's met in each other's homes and didn't belong to a church.  Church isn't the building but it's the fellowship.