Who Are the Churches of Christ?

[mandalee65]

BCV lively?

He's talking about this:
1 Cor. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Lively, it seems to me like the tongues & knowledge cease at the same time; yet you still claim knowledge. How is that so?

And has it occurred to you that Paul isn't talking about the immediate future, but the time after the judgment when we are all together in heaven - no more blemishes, totally perfect?

[Livelysword]

BCV lively?

Lively:    Understandest what thou readest?


Isa 55:11  So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


Eph 4:7  But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[marc]

Including those verses from Ephesians makes me think that you don't understand what you read. In context, the gifts are what make unity work--make many act as one, with everyone doing their part.  Saying that when unity comes the gifts that enable it will disappear is pure absurdism.

[Livelysword]

BCV lively?

He's talking about this:
1 Cor. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Lively, it seems to me like the tongues & knowledge cease at the same time; yet you still claim knowledge. How is that so?

And has it occurred to you that Paul isn't talking about the immediate future, but the time after the judgment when we are all together in heaven - no more blemishes, totally perfect?

Lively:  where it speaks of knowledge, it is discussing direct knowledge from God... and no, I do not claim such today for anyone since such gifts ceased...  And yes, Paul is discussing the immediate future...  I know this because of his words to the Corinthians in Chapter 12, when he states to them in the last verse of the 12th chapter, yet I show unto you a more perfect way...  He was showing it to them... that makes it in their immediate future...

[Livelysword]

Including those verses from Ephesians makes me think that you don't understand what you read. In context, the gifts are what make unity work--make many act as one, with everyone doing their part.  Saying that when unity comes the gifts that enable it will disappear is pure absurdism.

Lively:  LOL  and you think its me who is not understanding it?  LOL  all you have ever learned of God came directly from his written word which you either heard, or read...  You have at no time been spoken directly to by God...  The Holy Spirit has not taught you even one syllable...  not one jot or tittle...  you are in fact commanded in Jude 3 to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered...  not for the faith which continually is being delivered...

[mandalee65]

Lively:  where it speaks of knowledge, it is discussing direct knowledge from God... and no, I do not claim such today for anyone since such gifts ceased...  And yes, Paul is discussing the immediate future...  I know this because of his words to the Corinthians in Chapter 12, when he states to them in the last verse of the 12th chapter, yet I show unto you a more perfect way...  He was showing it to them... that makes it in their immediate future...

Read it again, Lively.

1 Cor. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

When is "then" in the last two sections? When perfection comes (v. 10). When does perfection come? When this life is over and we are at home with God in heaven. At that point, there will be absolutely no need for prophecies, or knowledge, or tongues. Why? Because it will all have been revealed. Love, however, will continue long after the spiritual gifts are no longer needed.

[marc]

Lively: Frankly, you're not even showing enough understanding of scripture to reason with.  Start with scripture, then move to doctrine, not the other way around.

Absurd as anything Edward Albee ever wrote.  Non-sequitur piled on strawman, only held together by a misplaced ellipses.

[Livelysword]

Lively: Frankly, you're not even showing enough understanding of scripture to reason with.  Start with scripture, then move to doctrine, not the other way around.

Absurd as anything Edward Albee ever wrote.  Non-sequitur piled on strawman, only held together by a misplace ellipses.

Lively:  Your insult is noted...

[marc]

But is it taken to heart? When you respond with absurdity, don't expect reason in return. What you are suggesting that this passage in Ephesians means is off the charts completely.  I don't appreciate the lack of respect for God's word you're showing, bending it to your desired doctrines, making it soothe your itching ears.

[memmy]

Mandalee and Marc, This is how I read it too. I was hoping lively was going to 1 Cor, because I have heard that so much and understand it to be when Christ returns as well.

I can hardly wait for the lightbulb to come on in lively. I know it's going to happen eventually.

[Livelysword]

But is it taken to heart? When you respond with absurdity, don't expect reason in return. What you are suggesting that this passage in Ephesians means is off the charts completely.  I don't appreciate the lack of respect for God's word you're showing, bending it to your desired doctrines, making it soothe your itching ears.

But is it taken to heart? When you respond with absurdity, don't expect reason in return. What you are suggesting that this passage in Ephesians means is off the charts completely.  I don't appreciate the lack of respect for God's word you're showing, bending it to your desired doctrines, making it soothe your itching ears.

Lively:  Just what is it you think I am suggesting the verse states... at least have the common courtesy to ask if such and such is what I am understanding of a verse and then if you believe such and such is not correct, to bring what you believe the correct understanding is...  but if all you folks got is insults... then I will just post accordingly... that is to say, understanding you are unable to show by sound doctrine what the verses teach...

[Livelysword]

Mandalee and Marc, This is how I read it too. I was hoping lively was going to 1 Cor, because I have heard that so much and understand it to be when Christ returns as well.

I can hardly wait for the lightbulb to come on in lively. I know it's going to happen eventually.

Lively:  And Memmy, you could not be more wrong...


1Co 12:28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29  Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30  Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31  But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


Paul clearly teaches he was to show them a more excellent way...  that means it has to happen in their lifetime for them to see it...  if Paul is going to show it to them... then they have to see it and it has to come about in their lifetime... and it did... and many understand these verses perfectly and what they mean...  and many others are mistaken and teach them falsely....


Here is an example found on the internet...


Spring Warrior Church of Christ
7432 S. Red Padgett Road
Perry, FL 32348
584-5176

 
Prove All Things Vol. 1 No. 23
   

“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”  1 Thessalonians 5:21

Spring Warrior Church of Christ

7432 S. Red Padgett Road

Perry, FL 32348

584-5176

Prove All Things Vol. 1 No. 23
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21

When that which is perfect has come
by Bill Blue 7/11/01

In previous articles, we have discussed the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, their purpose, how they were distributed, and the fact that they do not exist today. The purpose of this article is to discuss why they no longer exist, and when the spread of miraculous gifts ended.

One reason why miraculous abilities passed away is because we no longer have apostles. Other than the Apostles (Acts 2:1-4) and Cornelius (and his friends and relatives, Acts 10:24, 44-46), we do not read of an occasion in the New Testament where someone receives a miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit unless an Apostle first laid hands on that individual with the intent of passing on gifts. Philip was unable to do this even though he could perform miracles (Acts 8:5-19). Yet, Peter, John, and Paul - all Apostles - laid hands on someone who immediately thereafter received the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-19; 19: 6). Therefore, although an Apostle could lay hands on someone and that person receive the Holy Spirit and a miraculous gift; no one else could do the same even if they could perform miracles. Thus, when the last Apostle died, the ability to pass on the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit ended also.

In 1 Cor. 13:8-11, Paul said that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit would "fail," "cease," and "vanish away" when that which is perfect (or complete) has come (vs. 10). Paul contrasted the miraculous gifts, which were "in part," or incomplete (vs. 9-10), with something perfect or complete. According to Paul, miraculous gifts were needed by the early church to assist in its maturity, it being like a child (13:11), until that which could complete its maturity came.

Similarly, Paul also wrote that: "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, … till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, … that we should no longer be children, tossed to and from and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men. …" (Eph. 4:11-14)

What is complete? What did Paul expect "to come" that would make these incomplete gifts obsolete, and immature Christians mature? When would Christians come to the "unity of the faith," and what would protect Christians from "the trickery of men?" How was this to be accomplished? To answer these questions, we must consider the purpose of miraculous gifts. If we can establish that they accomplished their purpose, then we can understand why the era of miraculous gifts ended.

The power given to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was to enable them to preach the Gospel of Christ (Acts 1:8). With these abilities, the work of the Apostles was a great success (see article no. 17). In addition, some Apostles and other Christians, divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit, wrote the books of the New Testament (2 Pet. 1:20-21).

The Bible is that which is complete. Remember, when Paul preached in Corinth, many books of the New Testament were not written. However, once the New Testament was complete, then the need for miraculous knowledge ended because the church could consult the word of God in written form (2 Pet. 1:20-21). Christians no longer need to consult a divinely inspired brother or a miraculous sign to learn or confirm God’s word. Instead, we can do as the Bereans (Acts 17:11) and simply compare what is said to what is written in the Scriptures. The purpose of the Holy Spirit in delivering and confirming to us the will of our Father has been completed. It is now up to us to receive or reject that revelation – we have what is needed to know and obey the Father.

Not only are the Scriptures complete, but they are able to make Christians complete as well:

"[A]ll Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:16-17)

In 1 Cor. 13:11 Paul alludes to the fact that the miraculous gifts were needed because the early Christians were like children in their knowledge. In Heb. 5:12-6:5, the writer refers to immature Christians as "babes," and exhorts them to seek perfection through knowledge of God’s word. Thus, Christians become complete by studying (and living by) God’s word.

God’s word is "that which is perfect." Unlike miraculous gifts that "ceased," God’s word will not pass away (Matt. 24:35). The Scriptures are Christianity’s sole means and hope for unity. Inspiration no longer exists because its role has been fulfilled. Accordingly, the only thing all Christians have in common is faith in the Christ of the Bible. Although some "Christian" faiths have altered passages or added books to the Bible, directly disobeying God’s word (Gal. 1:8-10; Rev. 22:18-19), they have only corrupted that which is perfect.

[memmy]

That which is Perfect (Jesus) has not come back once again lively. His "Word became flesh" and that is Jesus.

God's word is spoken though the pages of the Living Bible, but Jesus is that which is Perfect.

[Livelysword]

That which is Perfect (Jesus) has not come back once again lively. His "Word became flesh" and that is Jesus.

God's word is spoken though the pages of the Living Bible, but Jesus is that which is Perfect.

Lively:  That which is perfect in the context, is not speaking of Jesus Memmy....   the context is speaking of Spiritual gifts...  Paul said he would show them Corinthians a better way then the gifts... that the gifts would cease  how is it possible to show them a better way if that better way is Jesus, but Jesus has not come back in 2000 years... how does Paul then show them Corinthians a better way if that better way is the return of Jesus and Jesus has not returned?

[Lee Freeman]

Lively, Paul wasn't telling them that at some point around 100 AD spiritual gifts would cease, what he was telling them (if you read the whole of chapters 13 and 14 in context) was that there was something more important than them showing off their spiritual gifts and trying to one-up each other-which is what they had been doing. Apparently the Corinthians had been having a sort contest to prove who had the best spiritual gift, which most of them apparently thought was tongues. But in the meantime they'd forgoitten what those gifts were given originally for. In 14 he emphasizes why spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit in the first place-to edify and strengthen the Church. Paul's point is that spiritual gifts, exercised without love, are worthless, that love is paramount.  His point, I believe, is that spiritual gifts are given temporily, to meet a specific need of the church, then are gone-until the next need arises. But love is not a temporary gift, given for a brief time and then gone. Love is an eternal constant without which spiritual gifts are worthless.

Granted this is an inference, but then so is your view. Any interpreation we put on this passage must of necessity be based largely upon inference, since the text itself doesn't clearly spell out what it means. But I think my view takes into consideration the whole context of the two chapters and explains the evidence better than the old argument that Paul was telling them (and us) that one day spiritual gifts would cease.

The church of Christ's schizophrenia over the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the exercise of spiritual gifts can be traced back to Alexander Campbell and a misunderstanding of his views. Campbell taught and defended the literal indwelling of the Spirit in each individual; Christian and the church corporately, however he denied the existence of spiritual gifts because he observed that those who argued for them often ran to extremes of emotionalism and subjectivism, focusing more on the gifts themselves than what they were given to do for the Church. In other words, people lost sight of scripture focusing upon the spiritual gifts, and threw reason out the window.

Plus, Campbell refused to speculate as to just exactly how the Spirit could indwell each person, and exactly how it tesified with our spirit, or prays for us when we don't have the words; he simply taught what Scripture taught-that the Spirit literally indwells Christians and left it at that.

Later leaders in Churches of Christ erroneously assumed that because Campbell hadn't written more about the personal indwelling of the Spirit that he must not have believed in it.

Pax.