Who Are the Churches of Christ?

[DCR]

Later leaders in Churches of Christ erroneously assumed that because Campbell hadn't written more about the personal indwelling of the Spirit that he must not have believed in it.

What did he write about it?  Do you have some quotes or references that demonstrate what Campbell's beliefs were regarding the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

[jb728b]

That which is Perfect (Jesus) has not come back once again lively. His "Word became flesh" and that is Jesus.

God's word is spoken though the pages of the Living Bible, but Jesus is that which is Perfect.

The Greek word translated as "perfect" is "to talion".  This is the same word used in 1 Cor 2:6 and is properly translated "mature".  If you read 1 cor 13:10-12 you will come to understand the meaning of "perfect" in it's complete context.  It is interesting that he refers to the spiritual gifts as "childish things".  Paul also speaks of being a child but then becoming a man.  He uses the same language that we find in James 1:23-25.  Notice how these are ALL references to growing to maturity or completeness not "perfection" as it has come to be defined in modern English.  You will also notice how verse 25 defines "that which is perfect".

Also.  Jesus in not a thing, He is a person not a that.  If the "perfect thing"  referred to Christ it would have read "when HE who is perfect" and not when THAT which is perfect".

[DCR]

Also.  Jesus in not a thing, He is a person not a that.  If the "perfect thing"  referred to Christ it would have read "when HE who is perfect" and not when THAT which is perfect".

It seems that we have to speculate on what the "that" is exactly.  In the immediate context, it seems to perhaps refer to love or perfected love, though I'm not sure.  In the greater context of the Corinthian letter, I would almost be inclined to relate it to the perfection and our bodies being raised imperishable in 1 Corinthians 15 at Christ's coming.  So, perhaps, in that sense, it refers to the "coming" of Christ or the perfection that comes at that time (either which would be a "that").  There are different theories for sure.

[jb728b]

Also.  Jesus in not a thing, He is a person not a that.  If the "perfect thing"  referred to Christ it would have read "when HE who is perfect" and not when THAT which is perfect".

It seems that we have to speculate on what the "that" is exactly.  In the immediate context, it seems to perhaps refer to love or perfected love, though I'm not sure.  In the greater context of the Corinthian letter, I would almost be inclined to relate it to the perfection and our bodies being raised imperishable in 1 Corinthians 15 at Christ's coming.  So, perhaps, in that sense, it refers to the "coming" of Christ or the perfection that comes at that time (either which would be a "that").  There are different theories for sure.

  Verse 13 summarizes Paul's thoughts on the matter.
These three remain Faith Hope and Love.  If this is a reference to the second coming this would make no sense.  Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.  When Christ returns faith will be lost in sight for we shall see him as he is.  We hope for things we do not have.  We hope to see that which we have not seen.  Like faith, hope will be lost in sight when Christ returns.  So, if in conjunction with love; faith and hope abide, then this cannot be about the second coming of Christ.

[DCR]

Also.  Jesus in not a thing, He is a person not a that.  If the "perfect thing"  referred to Christ it would have read "when HE who is perfect" and not when THAT which is perfect".

It seems that we have to speculate on what the "that" is exactly.  In the immediate context, it seems to perhaps refer to love or perfected love, though I'm not sure.  In the greater context of the Corinthian letter, I would almost be inclined to relate it to the perfection and our bodies being raised imperishable in 1 Corinthians 15 at Christ's coming.  So, perhaps, in that sense, it refers to the "coming" of Christ or the perfection that comes at that time (either which would be a "that").  There are different theories for sure.

  Verse 13 summarizes Paul's thoughts on the matter.
These three remain Faith Hope and Love.  If this is a reference to the second coming this would make no sense.  Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.  When Christ returns faith will be lost in sight for we shall see him as he is.  We hope for things we do not have.  We hope to see that which we have not seen.  Like faith, hope will be lost in sight when Christ returns.  So, if in conjunction with love; faith and hope abide, then this cannot be about the second coming of Christ.

What do you think the perfect refers to?  I know the theory about it referring to the completed writings of the New Testament, but that seems like an arbitrary interpretation without a definitive basis in the text.  So, I'm not sure I buy it.  Actually, I'm not sure that Paul's statement about faith, hope, and love "remaining" necessarily points to the "perfection" he was discussing here... or that abiding in these three as Paul directed necessarily meant the immediate cessation of the miraculous spiritual gifts.

One thing that set faith, hope, and love apart from the other gifts was that they were common to all.  Not everyone had the gifts of tongues, prophecies, healings, etc.  But, all had (or should have had) faith, hope, and love.

[James.]

re: faith, hope and love


"remain" is in the present, not the future (that would have been "will remain").  These three remain in the here and now as we await that which is perfect: faith, hope, and love.

[DCR]

re: faith, hope and love


"remain" is in the present, not the future (that would have been "will remain").  These three remain in the here and now as we await that which is perfect: faith, hope, and love.

Yep... "Remain" in these even while the gifts of tongues, prophecies, etc. were still ongoing at the time.

[jb728b]

The context of chapter 13 is the end of the imperfect and the coming of the perfect thing. The imperfect (Spiritual gifts) being described as temporary, childish things and incomplete.  The word perfect ( which means 'mature or complete') must be examined in the context of what Paul says next.

When I was a child I spoke as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things. This obviously reinforces the definition of perfect as being "mature".  Let's not forget the parallel passage In James 1:23-25 where James basically says the same thing Paul did in verse 11, 12.

[memmy]

So when we become adults, you believe we are called "perfect" in the biblical sense? 

Not that I'm aware of, , until Jesus returns, will we become that.

Is this what you mean by perfect?

[jb728b]

So when we become adults, you believe we are called "perfect" in the biblical sense? 

Not that I'm aware of, , until Jesus returns, will we become that.

Is this what you mean by perfect?

 In the biblical SENSE the word perfect means complete, total mature.  And NO Paul is not talking about anyone becoming adults, he's talking about the church (The kingdom that Christ established in Acts2) reaching a point of maturity where the miraculous gifts are no longer necessary to prove anything.  After all, the only purpose for the miraculous gifts was to offer proof of the Gospel.  Let's also not confuse the indwelling Spirit with the temporary miraculous gifts of the first century.  They are not the same thing.

[Livelysword]

Lively, Paul wasn't telling them that at some point around 100 AD spiritual gifts would cease, what he was telling them (if you read the whole of chapters 13 and 14 in context) was that there was something more important than them showing off their spiritual gifts and trying to one-up each other-which is what they had been doing. Apparently the Corinthians had been having a sort contest to prove who had the best spiritual gift, which most of them apparently thought was tongues. But in the meantime they'd forgoitten what those gifts were given originally for. In 14 he emphasizes why spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit in the first place-to edify and strengthen the Church. Paul's point is that spiritual gifts, exercised without love, are worthless, that love is paramount.  His point, I believe, is that spiritual gifts are given temporily, to meet a specific need of the church, then are gone-until the next need arises. But love is not a temporary gift, given for a brief time and then gone. Love is an eternal constant without which spiritual gifts are worthless.

Granted this is an inference, but then so is your view. Any interpreation we put on this passage must of necessity be based largely upon inference, since the text itself doesn't clearly spell out what it means. But I think my view takes into consideration the whole context of the two chapters and explains the evidence better than the old argument that Paul was telling them (and us) that one day spiritual gifts would cease.

The church of Christ's schizophrenia over the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the exercise of spiritual gifts can be traced back to Alexander Campbell and a misunderstanding of his views. Campbell taught and defended the literal indwelling of the Spirit in each individual; Christian and the church corporately, however he denied the existence of spiritual gifts because he observed that those who argued for them often ran to extremes of emotionalism and subjectivism, focusing more on the gifts themselves than what they were given to do for the Church. In other words, people lost sight of scripture focusing upon the spiritual gifts, and threw reason out the window.

Plus, Campbell refused to speculate as to just exactly how the Spirit could indwell each person, and exactly how it tesified with our spirit, or prays for us when we don't have the words; he simply taught what Scripture taught-that the Spirit literally indwells Christians and left it at that.

Later leaders in Churches of Christ erroneously assumed that because Campbell hadn't written more about the personal indwelling of the Spirit that he must not have believed in it.

Pax.

Lively:  You do not have a clue as to what is being taught in 1Cor 13....

[memmy]

So jb, are you saying that they needed miraculous gifts to prove the gospel, even though many had witnessed Christ's return and assention, the thousands who witnessed the Holy Spirit rushing in like a loud wind, landing on every one there, but still needed more. Then as for us, we have the Bible to read, and we don't need anything else?

Or, did the people in those days mature faster than Christians today? If not, why not, with those gifts given only as proof, and if so, why did they need all those miracles? Why do we not now?  

[Livelysword]

So jb, are you saying that they needed miraculous gifts to prove the gospel, even though many had witnessed Christ's return and assention, the thousands who witnessed the Holy Spirit rushing in like a loud wind, landing on every one there, but still needed more. Then as for us, we have the Bible to read, and we don't need anything else?

Or, did the people in those days mature faster than Christians today? If not, why not, with those gifts given only as proof, and if so, why did they need all those miracles? Why do we not now?  

Lively:  Why should anyone believe the apostles had seen a resurrected Lord?  Should they all have just taken their word for it?  Of coarse not...  which is why God gave them gifts of the Holy Spirit... to confirm their word with signs and wonders... why believe them when they say they saw the Risen Lord?  Because of the Mighty and wonders and deeds they are doing through the gift of the Holy Ghost... speaking in tongues... prophesy... healing the lame... giving sight to the blind... raising the dead...  being able to lay hands upon others who obey the gospel and give them gifts of the Holy Spirit... God is bearing them witness that what they are saying is true by signs and wonders...


Heb 2:1  Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2  For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3  How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4  God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?


Mar 16:17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


Such gifts were not to last... they were meant for the first century church... till they came into the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the son of God...  That happened in the first century...


Eph 4:8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


The word Till is an important word... it means up to a certain point and then ends...   Paul received revelations and wrote them down, as did other apostles and prophets by the Holy Spirit dwelling in them... and they wrote them so when we read them we may understand the  mystery of the gospel of Jesus Christ... so we are no longer children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine...


Eph 3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8  Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


since the first century when the word of God was given by the apostles and prophets... all men are commanded to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered...


ud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

[Lee Freeman]

Lively:  You do not have a clue as to what is being taught in 1Cor 13....

Sure I do. Read the relevant chapters in context. As I said before, the context of I Corinthians 13 and 14 is the Corinthians trying to outdo one another by showing off their spiritual gifts. Paul tells them that spiritual gifts are not given to show off but to benefit the Church, and that without love they are worthless. Then Paul informs them that while love is an eternal, unchanging constant, spiritual gifts are given to serve a specific need of the church then are gone until needed again. But according to Scripture, spiritual gifts take many forms, and are not always miraculous manifestations

Nowhere does the text indicate a specific timeline for the cessation of spiritual gifts. That's an inference.

Pax.

[memmy]

True dat Lee.