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Author Topic: Will the CoC ever be integrated?  (Read 39903 times)

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Offline DCR

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #385 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 13:02:47 »
DCR said
Quote
I don't know of any all-white church that wouldn't allow another race in the door.  And, it would be beyond disgusting if such a group did exist.
As I've pointed out, they unfortunately do, one experience I relayed was in your neighboring state KY.

I didn't mean to imply that they don't exist... just that I don't personally know of any.  And, it is disgusting if and where they do exist... though I would hope that such is a fading lot in this day and age.  Maybe that isn't the case in some places, as you said.

Somehow, the Klan and other racial supremacists do still exist in some corners of the world.

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #385 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 13:02:47 »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #386 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 13:52:30 »
I think where they exist is much more subtle than the KKK ever was, and I think the very same people probably don't think of themselves as being anything like them.  In fact, some I've known actually think they're doing people of other races a favor by sending them "where they will fit in better".  It reminds me of Pres. Bush's remark on racial issues in education, "...the subtle bigotry of low expectations," but in this case it's the "subtle bigotry of supposed discomfort."

I agree and have said before on GCM that I believe that such views are waning in our society and in the church.  But I'd sure like to see the church leading, not following, in such change.

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #386 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 13:52:30 »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #387 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 14:02:10 »
An interesting read is at the link.  It was said by Bill Banowsky (Mirror of a Movement) to be the most significant speech ever given at the ACU Lectureship.

Modern Challenges to Christian Morals

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #388 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 14:39:54 »
I think where they exist is much more subtle than the KKK ever was, and I think the very same people probably don't think of themselves as being anything like them.  In fact, some I've known actually think they're doing people of other races a favor by sending them "where they will fit in better".  It reminds me of Pres. Bush's remark on racial issues in education, "...the subtle bigotry of low expectations," but in this case it's the "subtle bigotry of supposed discomfort."

I agree and have said before on GCM that I believe that such views are waning in our society and in the church.  But I'd sure like to see the church leading, not following, in such change.

My physical family has some "integration" in it, but I doubt my brother and his wife would be welcome in some geographical areas with an "interracial" marriage.

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #388 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 14:39:54 »

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #389 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 18:24:52 »
1- A group, whether you're talking about a country club or a church, is racist if it does not allow people of another race or races to join. 

2- I don't know of any all-white church that wouldn't allow another race in the door.  And, it would be beyond disgusting if such a group did exist. 

3- But, you can't just look at a group, see that everyone is of the same race, and then just assume that they don't allow other races

4- That's why we cannot make sweeping judgments and criticisms and apply it to everyone

5- Some of this seems to amount to activism, and its purpose is to fulfill the contemporary notion of racial diversity/integration, affirmative action,

6- If a church is all white, how does it meet trying to introduce a percentage of black members? 

7- In order to bring multiple races into the congregation, it seems that we're now "targeting" specific groups just to make sure we're diverse enough. 

8- Galatians 3:28


1- I wasn't talking about a dictionary definition.  Just look at people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton: They get the slightest whiff of an all-white institution (college, country club, etc.) of any kind, and they will call a press conference and shout from the mountaintops to condemn it.  They always seem to rally lots of people into the cause, and Jesse in particular routinely extorts millions from companies on this basis.

2- Ever heard of the COC-Aryan Nations?  They've been around for a while.

3- Agreed.  But that was never my point here.

4- Yup.   ::nodding::  Did you not notice my disclaimer a few posts ago?

5- I have never believed in affirmative action, or any kind of quota.

6- I just proposed a solution for that.  Look again.

7- See #6

8- All the more reason not to have a  monolithic church.  Thank you for making my case for me   ::noworries::


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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #389 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 18:24:52 »



Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #390 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 18:27:50 »
I'd sure like to see the church leading, not following, in such change.

Absolutely.   ::amen!::

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #391 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 19:32:59 »
I doubt my brother and his wife would be welcome in some geographical areas with an "interracial" marriage.

Now that I think about it, I believe my family, on both sides, has more interracial marriages than otherwise. 

Funny, I've never thought about it until this very moment.   rofl

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #392 on: Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 19:40:36 »
An interesting read is at the link. 
Modern Challenges to Christian Morals


That link doesn't work.  I think this is the one you want.  http://www.bible.acu.edu/crs/ItemDetail.asp?Bookmark=1590

Offline DCR

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #393 on: Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 07:55:19 »
1- I wasn't talking about a dictionary definition.  Just look at people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton: They get the slightest whiff of an all-white institution (college, country club, etc.) of any kind, and they will call a press conference and shout from the mountaintops to condemn it.  They always seem to rally lots of people into the cause, and Jesse in particular routinely extorts millions from companies on this basis.

And, that's exactly the kind of concern I've been trying to address here.  Thank you for making my case for me.  ::wink::  Jackson and Sharpton would be presumptuous in doing that.  Are there racist institutions?  Sure.  But, what I fear happens is that there is effectively a witch hunt for possible racism.  If your group or church happens to be all of one race, then assumptions and accusations are made.  In effect, we have gone from one extreme to another.

2- Ever heard of the COC-Aryan Nations?  They've been around for a while.

No... can't say I have.  ::pondering::  With "COC," I assume you're not trying to make some kind of connection to the "Church of Christ" we discuss on this forum, are you?  I Googled and found references to the possible group you refer to.  But, I could see no connection to the RM, and I would think I would have at least heard of this if there was.  I have heard of "Aryan Nations," which may be what you're talking about.  But, again, as I told jmg3rd, I was not saying that racist groups don't exist... just that I don't personally know any churches (and, stevehut, I mainly have in mind any CofC I have ever known) who disallow other races.  If there were, they would be justifiably rebuked by others who were aware of it.  I was not even including extremist racist groups in the "churches" I was talking about.  I may not have made that statement precisely enough.

6- I just proposed a solution for that.  Look again.

A solution which involved bringing people from all over the area to a central place for one church assembly.  If a single church decides to do that, it may be feasible yet inconvenient for members who live further away... and, with current gas prices...

I can come up with some practical problems with this approach though.  In my business, we have a term called "scalability."  If a church becomes large enough, one location is not very "scalable."  If you added up all the CofC adherents in the Nashville area, the sum total would be in the tens of thousands.  To bring us all to one central location would require a stadium.  Plus, I don't think very large gatherings are always the most beneficial for individual members.  They get lost in the crowd.  The trend in larger churches now is to actually break things up into small groups.  I know of a church in my area that has a couple of services on Sunday morning (as do most of the larger churches... what do you think about having multiple service times, by the way?) and then have small groups in homes on Sunday nights instead of the traditional Sunday night service.  Other congregations do this as well.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #394 on: Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 08:24:58 »
An interesting read is at the link. 
Modern Challenges to Christian Morals


That link doesn't work.  I think this is the one you want.  http://www.bible.acu.edu/crs/ItemDetail.asp?Bookmark=1590
Yes, it does.  Yours is a scan, mine goes to the exact same text, just as actual text, not jpg's.  ::tippinghat::

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #395 on: Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 08:30:02 »
Why do I get the impression that stevehut's not really discussing race nearly as much as he's trying to discuss the mother church concept vs. multiple autonomous congregations?

If that's really where you're wanting to go with this, that would best be discussed in its own thread, so as not to mistakenly meld the two issues into one.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #396 on: Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 08:43:06 »
1- With "COC," I assume you're not trying to make some kind of connection to the "Church of Christ" we discuss on this forum, are you? 

2- If a church becomes large enough, one location is not very "scalable."  If you added up all the CofC adherents in the Nashville area, the sum total would be in the tens of thousands.  To bring us all to one central location would require a stadium. 

3- Plus, I don't think very large gatherings are always the most beneficial for individual members.  They get lost in the crowd.  The trend in larger churches now is to actually break things up into small groups. 

4- I know of a church in my area that has a couple of services on Sunday morning (as do most of the larger churches... what do you think about having multiple service times, by the way?)

1- Not trying to imply anything here, other than overtly racist churches do exist. 

2- I would have no problem with having multiple congregations in a large city like Nashville.  But as I have said previously, around here, you can't drive more than a few blocks without tripping over another COC meeting place.  Combine all seven groups, and you might have about 300-400 on Sunday morning.  (The paper memberships are more than double that, but the attendance is dismal.  Definitely not a uniquely COC phenomenon.)

3- Yup.   ::nodding::  Small groups are definitely the way to go.  But the isolation that you've described here, is not unique to large churches; I have been involved in several very small churches (50 or less) where most of the members have no contact between Sunday services.  Small congregation doesn't always equate to intimacy.

4- Many churches do that, and I think it's a capital idea.  Although at my church, the small groups sometimes meet on other nights during the week.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #397 on: Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 08:44:04 »
Mother church??   ???

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #398 on: Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 08:51:14 »
It's terminology McKean & Co. used to use for the concept of establishing a single Mother Church in a major metropolitan city that the surrounding smaller churches then are subservient to (Boston Church of Christ then later the LA Church of Christ, etc.) rather than many autonomous congregations in a metro.

It's always been the MO to have a single congregation per city.  It's easier to control a pyramid.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #399 on: Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 09:09:04 »
JMG, I didn't suggest a single church per city.

And the LA Church is not "subservient" to Boston.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #400 on: Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 09:12:24 »
JMG, I didn't suggest a single church per city.

I created a thread in the Theology section relating to the single church per city concept.  Check it out.

Offline mistergus

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #401 on: Thu Oct 02, 2008 - 21:18:39 »
I mean where I am there are white cOC's and black cOC's. Not that its really are problem, just sayin'.

You have a few black families scattered through white cOC's but that is not what I mean by intergration.

Why the seperation if Jesus does not see a reason to seperate? The church is suppose to be representin.'

This situation exists among all denominations, not just the Lord's church.

So why do you single out CoC's for this thread, when this is the case everywhere you look?  Doing a little CoC bashing, are we?

This is a silly post...

Robert G

Offline Imabear

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #402 on: Thu Oct 02, 2008 - 21:33:59 »
I mean where I am there are white cOC's and black cOC's. Not that its really are problem, just sayin'.

You have a few black families scattered through white cOC's but that is not what I mean by intergration.

Why the seperation if Jesus does not see a reason to seperate? The church is suppose to be representin.'

This situation exists among all denominations, not just the Lord's church.

So why do you single out CoC's for this thread, when this is the case everywhere you look?  Doing a little CoC bashing, are we?

This is a silly post...

Robert G
True, but instead of pointing fingers at other denominations, shouldn't we look at our own group, our own assembly?  Ourselves?
What can we do to encourage healthy interaction between the races? 
How can we foster change? How can we bring healing and reconciliation? 
I should be looking at my part in it.  Not be concerned about what other groups are doing.  Be a leader, not a follower.
Okay, to be honest, I'm not CoC, and I agree it isn't just a CoC problem... I have no power to change the CoC.
I have a voice (be it a very small one) in my own circle of influence.  I should be using it.  That's where my responsibility lies.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #403 on: Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 01:23:15 »
True, but instead of pointing fingers at other denominations, shouldn't we look at our own group, our own assembly?  Ourselves?

Yup.    ::nodding::

Offline Dennis

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #404 on: Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 08:22:11 »
I mean where I am there are white cOC's and black cOC's. Not that its really are problem, just sayin'.

You have a few black families scattered through white cOC's but that is not what I mean by intergration.

Why the seperation if Jesus does not see a reason to seperate? The church is suppose to be representin.'

This situation exists among all denominations, not just the Lord's church.

So why do you single out CoC's for this thread, when this is the case everywhere you look?  Doing a little CoC bashing, are we?

This is a silly post...

Robert G
So we get a pass because others are doing it?

Offline mistergus

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #405 on: Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 14:32:32 »
I mean where I am there are white cOC's and black cOC's. Not that its really are problem, just sayin'.

You have a few black families scattered through white cOC's but that is not what I mean by intergration.

Why the seperation if Jesus does not see a reason to seperate? The church is suppose to be representin.'

This situation exists among all denominations, not just the Lord's church.

So why do you single out CoC's for this thread, when this is the case everywhere you look?  Doing a little CoC bashing, are we?

This is a silly post...

Robert G
So we get a pass because others are doing it?

So we get singled out while others are doing it?

Offline Dennis

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #406 on: Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 16:16:07 »
I mean where I am there are white cOC's and black cOC's. Not that its really are problem, just sayin'.

You have a few black families scattered through white cOC's but that is not what I mean by intergration.

Why the seperation if Jesus does not see a reason to seperate? The church is suppose to be representin.'

This situation exists among all denominations, not just the Lord's church.

So why do you single out CoC's for this thread, when this is the case everywhere you look?  Doing a little CoC bashing, are we?

This is a silly post...

Robert G
So we get a pass because others are doing it?

So we get singled out while others are doing it?
Paul  said essentially we should look at our own problems before trying to solve everyone else's.  You disagree with Paul?

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #407 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 00:08:23 »
So we get singled out while others are doing it?

Why should it matter?   ???

If it's the right thing to do, then it's the right thing to do! 

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #408 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 11:08:26 »
Another interesting angle here:

Yesterday, I drove into Hollywood to meet my sister for her birthday.  We went out to breakfast at a new downtown diner, and went shopping afterwards.

While there, we spoke about this issue.  (Strange, because she's not a believer.)  I was reminded of my aunt, who lives in South-Central LA, not too far from where we ate.  It's a gloriously integrated neighborhood, with blacks, asians, latinos, and white folks living on the same block, block after block for miles around.  On the main streets, they have taco stands, burger joints, Jewish delis, etc. side by side in a peaceful setting.

If you drive past a park in the neighborhood, you'll see kids of all races playing basketball and soccer, and the little ones in the sandbox getting along just fine.  Looks like a good situation.

But take a second look at Jefferson Blvd. or Crenshaw, and the churches are a different story.  There's a church with the name "african" in the name, another called "la luz de salvacion," or something like that, and another with asian writing (Chinese?) with no English translation.

Melting pot neighborhood.  My aunt has been there since the 1970's, and it has always been this way (except there a few less whites in the area now.)  Everyone gets along just fine.

Except in church. 

No one would have to drive or walk very far to worship in a mixed setting.  Everyone already knows everyone, so they wouldn't end up in a room full of strangers.  They simply choose not to. So there goes the lame excuse "we worship where we live."


Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #409 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 12:58:28 »
Another interesting angle here:

Yesterday, I drove into Hollywood to meet my sister for her birthday.  We went out to breakfast at a new downtown diner, and went shopping afterwards.

While there, we spoke about this issue.  (Strange, because she's not a believer.)  I was reminded of my aunt, who lives in

South-Central LA, not too far from where we ate.  It's a gloriously integrated neighborhood, with blacks, asians, latinos, and white folks living on the same block, block after block for miles around.  On the main streets, they have taco stands, burger joints, Jewish delis, etc. side by side in a peaceful setting.

If you drive past a park in the neighborhood, you'll see kids of all races playing basketball and soccer, and the little ones in the sandbox getting along just fine.  Looks like a good situation.

But take a second look at Jefferson Blvd. or Crenshaw, and the churches are a different story.  There's a church with the name "african" in the name, another called "la luz de salvacion," or something like that, and another with asian writing (Chinese?) with no English translation.

Melting pot neighborhood.  My aunt has been there since the 1970's, and it has always been this way (except there a few less whites in the area now.)  Everyone gets along just fine.

Except in church. 

No one would have to drive or walk very far to worship in a mixed setting.  Everyone already knows everyone, so they wouldn't end up in a room full of strangers.  They simply choose not to. So there goes the lame excuse "we worship where we live."



I can't worship where I live.  The closest church is 7 miles away, all others are 15+ miles away.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #410 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 13:01:21 »
I can't worship where I live.  The closest church is 7 miles away, all others are 15+ miles away.

Ah, but you make the trip willingly, yes? 

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #411 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 13:04:23 »
I can't worship where I live.  The closest church is 7 miles away, all others are 15+ miles away.

Ah, but you make the trip willingly, yes? 

Just moved, so I haven't found any groups to assemble with as of yet.  And there are no "integrated" churches as the population is upwards of 96% saltine.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #412 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 13:31:43 »
Just moved, so I haven't found any groups to assemble with as of yet. 

Which was a choice, yes?

I drive six miles to worship, and on a good day I can make the trip in 6 minutes.

(Or are we Jewish now, and can only walk so far on the Sabbath?)
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 13:44:30 by stevehut »

Offline Imabear

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #413 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 15:47:07 »
We worship with those who share our beliefs.
Different congregations have different teachings, different ideals.  
Sure we should all be followers of Christ, but we all have different concepts of what that means.

We worship with those who accustomed to the same worship style... Style of music.  
That might be what we have become accustomed to, or what we enjoy, or what enhances our connectedness to God and each other.   ::playingguitar::

I typed this 2.5 hours ago.  Clicked "Post" and went out. I just arrived back home to find that it hadn't gone through. :)
Steve,
I drive directly past a few different churches on my way to the one I attend.  Some of them are not my style. Some of them them don't share my beliefs.  All of them are predominantly Caucasian. 
Gary,
You are lucky that you can drive to church so quickly.  Around here we have these narrow windy roads that go up and down hills, and make abrupt turns for no apparent reason.  There's even a covered bridge on the way.  It takes 25-30 minutes, sometimes longer...  Sometimes a farmer is driving his dairy cows down the road to a different pasture.  We sit there and wait... somewhat patiently.

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #414 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 16:16:26 »
1- Different congregations have different teachings, different ideals.  

2- we all have different concepts of what that means.

3- We worship with those who accustomed to the same worship style...

4- It takes 25-30 minutes, sometimes longer... 

1- Translation: division.  And it can be overcome, if we make the decision to do so.

2- Translation: division.  And it can be overcome, if we make the decision to do so.

3- Which can be overcome, if make the decision to do so.

4- Is that really a problem?  I have gone much farther, which I did gladly for Christ.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #415 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 16:22:54 »
1- Different congregations have different teachings, different ideals. 

2- we all have different concepts of what that means.

3- We worship with those who accustomed to the same worship style...

4- It takes 25-30 minutes, sometimes longer... 

1- Translation: division.  And it can be overcome, if we make the decision to do so.

2- Translation: division.  And it can be overcome, if we make the decision to do so.

3- Which can be overcome, if make the decision to do so.

4- Is that really a problem?  I have gone much farther, which I did gladly for Christ.

Why doesn't your church initiate dialog about reconciliation and merge with the local CofC's and Baptists?

Offline stevehut

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #416 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 16:51:24 »
Why doesn't your church initiate dialog about reconciliation and merge with the local CofC's and Baptists?

We actually have had an ongoing dialogue with the COC's in the area, over the years.  (And our sister churches have done so in their respective areas, all over USA.)  Those efforts have borne little fruit (apart from a few individuals who chose to come over), because -- hey, as we've seen here is GCM -- they can't even agree on much among themselves, much less outsiders like us.

In any event, people don't get saved or converted as groups.  They get saved/converted as individuals.  Therefore' we've discovered that individual evangelism is much more effective.

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #417 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 18:11:18 »
Why doesn't your church initiate dialog about reconciliation and merge with the local CofC's and Baptists?

We actually have had an ongoing dialogue with the COC's in the area, over the years.  (And our sister churches have done so in their respective areas, all over USA.)  Those efforts have borne little fruit (apart from a few individuals who chose to come over), because -- hey, as we've seen here is GCM -- they can't even agree on much among themselves, much less outsiders like us.

In any event, people don't get saved or converted as groups.  They get saved/converted as individuals.  Therefore' we've discovered that individual evangelism is much more effective.

So no dialog with any non-CofC churches?

Offline OkiMar

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #418 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 21:38:12 »
Just moved, so I haven't found any groups to assemble with as of yet. 

Which was a choice, yes?

What is your point?

Offline Imabear

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Re: Will the CoC ever be integrated?
« Reply #419 on: Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 22:49:23 »


4- It takes 25-30 minutes, sometimes longer... 



4- Is that really a problem?  I have gone much farther, which I did gladly for Christ.
Steve, All along I thought you were saying that people should go to the closest church to where they live.  I drive past other churches to go where I attend.  For me driving that distance is not a problem, except the cost of fuel....  I'll probably change to closer church once my daughter has flown the coop.

I forgot to list a couple of reasons that I worship where I do.
1) My daughter has friends there. Having good Christian friends is important... especially to teens.
2) My daughter is able to use her God given talents in ways that she might not be able to in other congregations.


 

     
anything