Author Topic: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a  (Read 3812 times)

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Offline Star of David

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Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« on: Mon Jun 25, 2012 - 16:48:52 »
What celestial events will actually fulfill the celestial events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 that He said shall occur just prior to His return to earth?                                   Matthew 24:29-30
New International Version (NIV)

“Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.


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Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« on: Mon Jun 25, 2012 - 16:48:52 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jun 25, 2012 - 17:04:30 »
Here's a thought for you...

A lunar eclipse happens when the earth is directly between the sun and the moon.
A solar eclipse happens when the moon is directly between the earth and the sun.

So... it is impossible to have both at once.

Feel free to rule out 'simultaneous eclipses' from your list of possibilities.

Jarrod

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jun 25, 2012 - 17:08:21 »
   Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #3 on: Tue Jun 26, 2012 - 18:24:50 »
   Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 26, 2012 - 23:08:35 »
Were told that stars (metors) fall to the earth like ripened figs during a
storm...

These hitting the earth is what stirs up the dirt and dust and blackens the sky's....
And with all that in the air, they will add colors to the light of the moon

just like volcanic dust gives spectacular sunsets so to will all the debis....

He is right, this is the sign of Christ coming!

Matt 24 shows this (rev 6th seal)
Mark 13 shows this
Luke 21 shows this

All are followed by the son of man coming in the clouds!

Same as rev 6

Jesus opens sixth seal and same things happen and then we see angels come down and seal the 144,000 amd then John says

after this I saw a great multitude in heaven -


The 6th seal is opened and those things happen
the sky rolls back so that Everyone see God the father on the throne and Jesus at the right hand of power just as Matt 26:64 (maybe 27:64) tells us the next time we see Christ is at right hand of power!


These events (sun moon ect) are what causes men hearts to fail them for what's coming on the earth!

People's heart will fail because their so afraid these things mean the end of the earth!

Then when God rolls back the sky and every eye see him (rev 1:7)

the people then want the rocks to hide them from God

you have to rememeber the skys will be dark when God rolls the sky back and the light floods in scaring people like roaches under same conditions...


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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jun 26, 2012 - 23:08:35 »



Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #5 on: Tue Jun 26, 2012 - 23:14:32 »
   Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod


It mentions the following

The sun
the moon
the stars
the sky
metors falling to earth
the heavens rolling back to expose God
men crying for rocks to fall on them and hide them
from God looking down on them

And yet it has nothing to do with those things..... Wow
 

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #6 on: Tue Jun 26, 2012 - 23:19:29 »
Star of remphan

oooops


Did you know acts 7:43 condemns the star of David....


The Israelites brought it out of Egypt during the exodus

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #7 on: Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 07:03:15 »
   Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod


It mentions the following

The sun
the moon
the stars
the sky
metors falling to earth
the heavens rolling back to expose God
men crying for rocks to fall on them and hide them
from God looking down on them

And yet it has nothing to do with those things..... Wow
 
Correct.

The sun symbolizes the Jewish monarch
The moon the Jewish priesthood, especially the high priest
The stars symbolize the class of society that would be referred to as "nobles"
The sky (or heavens) combines all of the above, symbolizing the entire governance of the country
The STARS that fall from heaven (not meteors) are nobles deposed from their station as nobles, who mingle among the people, wielding informal influence.

That the sun is darkened and the moon does not give her light, is a way of saying that the two leaders of the Jewish nation - the king and the high priest - will cease to govern.

Not that you'll believe me, but at least you'll have heard it once.  If you feel like indulging me, try going back and reading through all those Old Testament prophecies about the sun and moon, and applying this logic.  It works there too.

Jarrod

Offline Star of David

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jun 27, 2012 - 15:36:57 »
   Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod

That's interesting, Jarrod, as I gave Christ's statements recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a over a hundred thoughts between the ages of 9 and 11 as avid amateur astronomer during the 1960s.

I suggest that you reconsider your preconceived notions, given that Christ told His apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....." that will point to the general time of His return. Though, I don't realistically expect you to as most End Times enthusiasts, once they determine their expectations on how the Last Days will unfold, very rarely budge from them.

Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #9 on: Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 11:42:09 »
   Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod

That's interesting, Jarrod, as I gave Christ's statements recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a over a hundred thoughts between the ages of 9 and 11 as avid amateur astronomer during the 1960s.

I suggest that you reconsider your preconceived notions, given that Christ told His apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....." that will point to the general time of His return. Though, I don't realistically expect you to as most End Times enthusiasts, once they determine their expectations on how the Last Days will unfold, very rarely budge from them.

And I would suggest that you do as Jarrod suggested - to study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT.  You can start with Isaiah 13...

Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

The entire chapter is devoted to the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes (verse 17).
This is a past event as you well know.
So, if these are ACTUAL, PHYSICAL events, then the planet is no longer...but look!  we are here.

Learn the language of the prophets and you won't be inclined to show your ignorance by telling others about their alleged presuppositions!

Stop using 21st century Western thought to interpret ancient Eastern understandings.  It doesn't fit!

Offline Star of David

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #10 on: Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 16:07:49 »
  Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod

That's interesting, Jarrod, as I gave Christ's statements recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a over a hundred thoughts between the ages of 9 and 11 as avid amateur astronomer during the 1960s.

I suggest that you reconsider your preconceived notions, given that Christ told His apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....." that will point to the general time of His return. Though, I don't realistically expect you to as most End Times enthusiasts, once they determine their expectations on how the Last Days will unfold, very rarely budge from them.

And I would suggest that you do as Jarrod suggested - to study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT.  You can start with Isaiah 13...

Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

The entire chapter is devoted to the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes (verse 17).
This is a past event as you well know.
So, if these are ACTUAL, PHYSICAL events, then the planet is no longer...but look!  we are here.

Learn the language of the prophets and you won't be inclined to show your ignorance by telling others about their alleged presuppositions!

Stop using 21st century Western thought to interpret ancient Eastern understandings.  It doesn't fit!

Why do you believe that one needs to "study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT," MixedEmotions? To me, that's rather peculiar and unsubstantiated.

I'll continue to take Christ at His words recorded in Luke 21:25a while you delve into the OT.
« Last Edit: Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 16:15:11 by Star of David »

Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #11 on: Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 16:40:08 »
  Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod

That's interesting, Jarrod, as I gave Christ's statements recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a over a hundred thoughts between the ages of 9 and 11 as avid amateur astronomer during the 1960s.

I suggest that you reconsider your preconceived notions, given that Christ told His apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....." that will point to the general time of His return. Though, I don't realistically expect you to as most End Times enthusiasts, once they determine their expectations on how the Last Days will unfold, very rarely budge from them.

And I would suggest that you do as Jarrod suggested - to study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT.  You can start with Isaiah 13...

Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

The entire chapter is devoted to the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes (verse 17).
This is a past event as you well know.
So, if these are ACTUAL, PHYSICAL events, then the planet is no longer...but look!  we are here.

Learn the language of the prophets and you won't be inclined to show your ignorance by telling others about their alleged presuppositions!

Stop using 21st century Western thought to interpret ancient Eastern understandings.  It doesn't fit!

Why do you believe that one needs to "study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT," MixedEmotions? To me, that's rather peculiar and unsubstantiated.

I'll continue to take Christ at His words recorded in Luke 21:25a while you delve into the OT.

No doubt it is rather peculiar to you...you seem to forget that Christ's ministry was to the Jews and most every author of the epistles was Jewish.  They carry the same original Hebrew understandings over from the OT.  They are not two separate and diverse points of view.

It is your 21st century Western understanding of these words which has gotten you into hermeneutic trouble.  As long as you refuse to understand what it meant to the original audience (Jews), then you will continue to miss the proper interpretation.

Your wooden literalism (without the Hebrew cultural understanding) would make Isaiah 13 a planetary and universal collapse - just as you make it in the Gospel accounts.  It is not even remotely associated with such things.  But I already know you will not heed a word of this - your present paradigm won't allow for that sort of thing...

Please explain how Jacob knew that Joseph's dream was talking about himself, his mother and his eleven brothers as the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis 37.  I DARE YOU.

Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #12 on: Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 16:45:08 »
  Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod

That's interesting, Jarrod, as I gave Christ's statements recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a over a hundred thoughts between the ages of 9 and 11 as avid amateur astronomer during the 1960s.

I suggest that you reconsider your preconceived notions, given that Christ told His apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....." that will point to the general time of His return. Though, I don't realistically expect you to as most End Times enthusiasts, once they determine their expectations on how the Last Days will unfold, very rarely budge from them.

And I would suggest that you do as Jarrod suggested - to study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT.  You can start with Isaiah 13...

Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

The entire chapter is devoted to the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes (verse 17).
This is a past event as you well know.
So, if these are ACTUAL, PHYSICAL events, then the planet is no longer...but look!  we are here.

Learn the language of the prophets and you won't be inclined to show your ignorance by telling others about their alleged presuppositions!

Stop using 21st century Western thought to interpret ancient Eastern understandings.  It doesn't fit!

Why do you believe that one needs to "study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT," MixedEmotions? To me, that's rather peculiar and unsubstantiated.

I'll continue to take Christ at His words recorded in Luke 21:25a while you delve into the OT.

No doubt it is rather peculiar to you...you seem to forget that Christ's ministry was to the Jews and most every author of the epistles was Jewish.  They carry the same original Hebrew understandings over from the OT.  They are not two separate and diverse points of view.

It is your 21st century Western understanding of these words which has gotten you into hermeneutic trouble.  As long as you refuse to understand what it meant to the original audience (Jews), then you will continue to miss the proper interpretation.

Your wooden literalism (without the Hebrew cultural understanding) would make Isaiah 13 a planetary and universal collapse - just as you make it in the Gospel accounts.  It is not even remotely associated with such things.  But I already know you will not heed a word of this - your present paradigm won't allow for that sort of thing...

Please explain how Jacob knew that Joseph's dream was talking about himself, his mother and his eleven brothers as the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis 37.  I DARE YOU.

Please explain how YOUR stars (PLURAL) can come crashing down to planet Earth (your version) in Revelation 6 and yet people are still able to walk around?

Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


You seem to have no clue that even if one normal-sized star came within 100,000 miles of our planet (let alone striking it) that we would all be instantly incinerated - including the entire planet!  Our present sun is a VERY small star compared to what's out there.

Offline Star of David

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 16:45:18 »


No need to use large bold print, MixedEmotions (an apt moniker, I must say).

causalset

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 16:45:50 »
I have heard that some people in Chernobyl region believe that Chernobyl is fulfillment of wormwood. They have argued that, in fact, the very word Chernobyl can be linked to wormwood in some way. The fact that the town was named Chernobyl long before the nuclear plant was built (in fact, the town is few centuries old, so no one knew about nuclear energy back when they came up with that name) makes it prophetic.

For more details, see http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/chernobyl_wormwood.htm

Offline Star of David

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 16:50:20 »
  Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod

That's interesting, Jarrod, as I gave Christ's statements recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a over a hundred thoughts between the ages of 9 and 11 as avid amateur astronomer during the 1960s.

I suggest that you reconsider your preconceived notions, given that Christ told His apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....." that will point to the general time of His return. Though, I don't realistically expect you to as most End Times enthusiasts, once they determine their expectations on how the Last Days will unfold, very rarely budge from them.

And I would suggest that you do as Jarrod suggested - to study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT.  You can start with Isaiah 13...

Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

The entire chapter is devoted to the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes (verse 17).
This is a past event as you well know.
So, if these are ACTUAL, PHYSICAL events, then the planet is no longer...but look!  we are here.

Learn the language of the prophets and you won't be inclined to show your ignorance by telling others about their alleged presuppositions!

Stop using 21st century Western thought to interpret ancient Eastern understandings.  It doesn't fit!

Why do you believe that one needs to "study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT," MixedEmotions? To me, that's rather peculiar and unsubstantiated.

I'll continue to take Christ at His words recorded in Luke 21:25a while you delve into the OT.

No doubt it is rather peculiar to you...you seem to forget that Christ's ministry was to the Jews and most every author of the epistles was Jewish.  They carry the same original Hebrew understandings over from the OT.  They are not two separate and diverse points of view.

It is your 21st century Western understanding of these words which has gotten you into hermeneutic trouble.  As long as you refuse to understand what it meant to the original audience (Jews), then you will continue to miss the proper interpretation.

Your wooden literalism (without the Hebrew cultural understanding) would make Isaiah 13 a planetary and universal collapse - just as you make it in the Gospel accounts.  It is not even remotely associated with such things.  But I already know you will not heed a word of this - your present paradigm won't allow for that sort of thing...

Please explain how Jacob knew that Joseph's dream was talking about himself, his mother and his eleven brothers as the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis 37.  I DARE YOU.

Please explain how YOUR stars (PLURAL) can come crashing down to planet Earth (your version) in Revelation 6 and yet people are still able to walk around?

Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


You seem to have no clue that even if one normal-sized star came within 100,000 miles of our planet (let alone striking it) that we would all be instantly incinerated - including the entire planet!  Our present sun is a VERY small star compared to what's out there.

Oh, at age 9, I assumed that Jesus was telling His apostles that the true stars would "fall from the sky" just prior to His return, thus terrifying me greatly should I be living at the time of His return.

By age 10 in 1964, however, I reasoned that He must be referring to a significant meteor shower that Christian astronomers will be able to identify beforehand prior to His return. I continue to believe that.

Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jun 28, 2012 - 19:49:25 »
I didn't think you'd bother to explain those passages...

And now you think stars = meteor showers...

Whatever...

The "time of the end" has nothing to do with the planet or universe, but you guys will continue to ignore the original OT prophecies and there is nothing I can do about it.

Nice chatting.
« Last Edit: Fri Jun 29, 2012 - 10:03:29 by MixedEmotions »

raggthyme7

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #17 on: Fri Jun 29, 2012 - 12:16:17 »
  Jarrod,

Have you considered the fact that during a total solar eclipse that both, “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light"?
Nope, haven't given it 2 seconds.  I actually know what the verses are talking about, and it doesn't have anything to do with the sun and moon in the sky.

Jarrod

That's interesting, Jarrod, as I gave Christ's statements recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a over a hundred thoughts between the ages of 9 and 11 as avid amateur astronomer during the 1960s.

I suggest that you reconsider your preconceived notions, given that Christ told His apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....." that will point to the general time of His return. Though, I don't realistically expect you to as most End Times enthusiasts, once they determine their expectations on how the Last Days will unfold, very rarely budge from them.

And I would suggest that you do as Jarrod suggested - to study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT.  You can start with Isaiah 13...

Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

The entire chapter is devoted to the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes (verse 17).
This is a past event as you well know.
So, if these are ACTUAL, PHYSICAL events, then the planet is no longer...but look!  we are here.

Learn the language of the prophets and you won't be inclined to show your ignorance by telling others about their alleged presuppositions!

Stop using 21st century Western thought to interpret ancient Eastern understandings.  It doesn't fit!

Why do you believe that one needs to "study the original Hebrew understanding of these sun, moon, and stars in the OT," MixedEmotions? To me, that's rather peculiar and unsubstantiated.

I'll continue to take Christ at His words recorded in Luke 21:25a while you delve into the OT.

No doubt it is rather peculiar to you...you seem to forget that Christ's ministry was to the Jews and most every author of the epistles was Jewish.  They carry the same original Hebrew understandings over from the OT.  They are not two separate and diverse points of view.

It is your 21st century Western understanding of these words which has gotten you into hermeneutic trouble.  As long as you refuse to understand what it meant to the original audience (Jews), then you will continue to miss the proper interpretation.

Your wooden literalism (without the Hebrew cultural understanding) would make Isaiah 13 a planetary and universal collapse - just as you make it in the Gospel accounts.  It is not even remotely associated with such things.  But I already know you will not heed a word of this - your present paradigm won't allow for that sort of thing...

Please explain how Jacob knew that Joseph's dream was talking about himself, his mother and his eleven brothers as the sun, moon, and stars in Genesis 37.  I DARE YOU.

Please explain how YOUR stars (PLURAL) can come crashing down to planet Earth (your version) in Revelation 6 and yet people are still able to walk around?

Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;


You seem to have no clue that even if one normal-sized star came within 100,000 miles of our planet (let alone striking it) that we would all be instantly incinerated - including the entire planet!  Our present sun is a VERY small star compared to what's out there.

Oh, at age 9, I assumed that Jesus was telling His apostles that the true stars would "fall from the sky" just prior to His return, thus terrifying me greatly should I be living at the time of His return.

By age 10 in 1964, however, I reasoned that He must be referring to a significant meteor shower that Christian astronomers will be able to identify beforehand prior to His return. I continue to believe that.

Star of David,

Would you mind listing a few of the verses that imply these "stars" are actually meteors?

Offline Star of David

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jun 29, 2012 - 16:29:04 »


Oh, at age 9, I assumed that Jesus was telling His apostles that the true stars would "fall from the sky" just prior to His return, thus terrifying me greatly should I be living at the time of His return.

By age 10 in 1964, however, I reasoned that He must be referring to a significant meteor shower that Christian astronomers will be able to identify beforehand prior to His return. I continue to believe that.

Star of David,

Would you mind listing a few of the verses that imply these "stars" are actually meteors?

 I do not need to quote you verses that imply these "stars" are actually meteors, Raggthyme7, as Christ predicted in Matthew 24:29-30a "will fall from the sky" just prior to His return . This conclusion is simply due to an intelligent Christian astronomer's reasoning after he or she rules out the impossible and rules in the plausible and possible.

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #19 on: Fri Jun 29, 2012 - 23:40:35 »


Oh, at age 9, I assumed that Jesus was telling His apostles that the true stars would "fall from the sky" just prior to His return, thus terrifying me greatly should I be living at the time of His return.

By age 10 in 1964, however, I reasoned that He must be referring to a significant meteor shower that Christian astronomers will be able to identify beforehand prior to His return. I continue to believe that.

Star of David,

Would you mind listing a few of the verses that imply these "stars" are actually meteors?


 I do not need to quote you verses that imply these "stars" are actually meteors, Raggthyme7, as Christ predicted in Matthew 24:29-30a "will fall from the sky" just prior to His return . This conclusion is simply due to an intelligent Christian astronomer's reasoning after he or she rules out the impossible and rules in the plausible and possible.

Still, I wonder why he did not rule in the Old Testament Scriptures that tell us what the "stars" actually are.

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #20 on: Sat Jun 30, 2012 - 17:12:40 »


Oh, at age 9, I assumed that Jesus was telling His apostles that the true stars would "fall from the sky" just prior to His return, thus terrifying me greatly should I be living at the time of His return.

By age 10 in 1964, however, I reasoned that He must be referring to a significant meteor shower that Christian astronomers will be able to identify beforehand prior to His return. I continue to believe that.

Star of David,

Would you mind listing a few of the verses that imply these "stars" are actually meteors?


 I do not need to quote you verses that imply these "stars" are actually meteors, Raggthyme7, as Christ predicted in Matthew 24:29-30a "will fall from the sky" just prior to His return . This conclusion is simply due to an intelligent Christian astronomer's reasoning after he or she rules out the impossible and rules in the plausible and possible.

Still, I wonder why he did not rule in the Old Testament Scriptures that tell us what the "stars" actually are.


Well,  raggthyme7, I can only explain the impression that I drew as an avid 10-year-old amateur astronomer in 1964 after contemplating Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a numerous times and that is that when Jesus told His apostles in Luke 21:25a that "there will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...," then that means that He was telling His apostles that there will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars.

I would think that most would agree here that there can be no more authoritative Scriptures found anywhere in the Bible pertaining to deriving the time of Christ's return than Jesus's quotes directly telling His apostles in the Olivet Discourse of what signs there will be that shall occur just prior to His return to earth. (That's why in many Bibles Christ's statements are shown in red letters.)



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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #21 on: Sat Jun 30, 2012 - 18:19:57 »

Well,  raggthyme7, I can only explain the impression that I drew as an avid 10-year-old amateur astronomer in 1964 after contemplating Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a numerous times and that is that when Jesus told His apostles in Luke 21:25a that "there will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...," then that means that He was telling His apostles that there will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars.


This is not meant to offend, but it's unfortunate when we use 10-year-old contemplation instead of the Scriptures, to understand the Scriptures. We know the Lord Jesus was referred to by Moses as The Prophet... so we should expect Him to speak at times in prophetic language similar to say, Isaiah. In chapter 13, Isaiah is prophesying against Babylon:

1The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw....

6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore all hands will be limp,
Every man’s heart will melt,
8 And they will be afraid.
Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them;
They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;
They will be amazed at one another;
Their faces will be like flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.





I realize this chapter has been recently mentioned, but I'd like to share what a few non-Preterist commentaries say about the sun, moon and stars in this prophecy....




Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For the stars of heaven - This verse cannot be understood literally, but is a metaphorical representation of the calamities that were coming upon Babylon. The meaning of the figure evidently is, that those calamities would be such as would be appropriately denoted by the sudden extinguishment of the stars, the sun, and the moon. As nothing would tend more to anarchy, distress, and ruin, than thus to have all the lights of heaven suddenly and forever quenched, this was an apt and forcible representation of the awful calamities that were coming upon the people. Darkness and night, in the Scriptures, are often the emblem of calamity and distress (see the note at Matthew 24:29). The revolutions and destructions of kingdoms and nations are often represented in the Scriptures under this image. So respecting the destruction of Idumea Isaiah 34:4 :

And all the hosts of heaven shall be dissolved,

And the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll;

And all their host shall fall down,

As the leaf falleth from off the vine,

And as a falling fig from the fig-tree.

So in Ezekiel 32:7-8, in a prophecy respecting the destruction of Pharaoh, king of Egypt:

And when I shall put time out,

I will cover the heavens, and make the stars thereof dark,

I will cover the sun with a cloud,

And the moon shall not give her light.

And the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee.

And set darkness upon thy land.

(Compare Joel 2:10; Joel 3:15-16.) Thus in Amos 8:9 :

continued...

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
For the stars of heaven "Yea, the stars of heaven" - The Hebrew poets, to express happiness, prosperity, the instauration and advancement of states, kingdoms, and potentates, make use of images taken from the most striking parts of nature, from the heavenly bodies, from the sun, moon, and stars: which they describe as shining with increased splendor, and never setting. The moon becomes like the meridian sun, and the sun's light is augmented sevenfold; (see Isaiah 30:26); new heavens and a new earth are created, and a brighter age commences. On the contrary, the overflow and destruction of kingdoms is represented by opposite images. The stars are obscured, the moon withdraws her light, and the sun shines no more! The earth quakes, and the heavens tremble; and all things seem tending to their original chaos, See Joel 2:10; Joel 3:15, Joel 3:16; Amos 8:9; Matthew 24:29; and De S. Poes. Herb. Prael. 6 et IX.

And the moon shall not cause her light to shine - This in its farther reference may belong to the Jewish polity, both in Church and state, which should be totally eclipsed, and perhaps shine no more in its distinct state for ever.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the stars of heaven,.... This and what follows are to be understood, not literally, but figuratively, as expressive of the dismalness and gloominess of the dispensation, of the horror and terror of it, in which there was no light, no comfort, no relief, nor any hope of any; the heavens and all the celestial bodies frowning upon them, declaring the displeasure of him that dwells there:..........

 see Acts 27:20 by the sun, moon, and stars, may be meant king, queen, and nobles, whose destruction is here prophesied of; it being usual in prophetic language, as well as in other writers (f), to express great personages hereby.



Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
13:6-18 We have here the terrible desolation of Babylon by the Medes and Persians. Those who in the day of their peace were proud, and haughty, and terrible, are quite dispirited when trouble comes. Their faces shall be scorched with the flame. All comfort and hope shall fail. The stars of heaven shall not give their light, the sun shall be darkened. Such expressions are often employed by the prophets, to describe the convulsions of governments. God will visit them for their iniquity, particularly the sin of pride, which brings men low. There shall be a general scene of horror...

Do you disagree with this interpretation of Isaiah 13, specifically the desolation of Babylon expressed by the "darkening" of the constellations? If not, why the sudden switch to the literal when reading the NT?

Shouldn't we at least consider the Hebrew Scriptures in our attempt to exegete the meaning of Luke 21:25 and Mat 24:29? After all, Jerusalem was referred to by Peter as "Babylon".... and in prophesying it's desolation the Lord eludes to the same sort of "signs" in the sun, moon and stars as did Isaiah. Interesting...  ::pondering::

« Last Edit: Sun Jul 01, 2012 - 12:04:10 by raggthyme7 »

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jul 02, 2012 - 16:51:31 »
No need to worry, raggthyme7, one would very often be correct to say, "but it's unfortunate when we use 10-year-old contemplation instead of the Scriptures, to understand the Scriptures."

But a lot depends on that particular 10-year-old child in 1964 who is doing that contemplation. For instance, he or she may very well grow up to unlock the intended meaning, beforehand, of the celestial events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 that shall occur just prior to Christ's return and, thus, have the gift of prophecy.

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jul 02, 2012 - 17:11:54 »
No need to worry, raggthyme7, one would very often be correct to say, "but it's unfortunate when we use 10-year-old contemplation instead of the Scriptures, to understand the Scriptures."

But a lot depends on that particular 10-year-old child in 1964 who is doing that contemplation. For instance, he or she may very well grow up to unlock the intended meaning, beforehand, of the celestial events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 that shall occur just prior to Christ's return and, thus, have the gift of prophecy.

Unlocking something means it has hidden meaning, yet there's nothing "secret" about your interpretation of verse 29. Besides, I believe the gift of prophecy is no longer in operation, and that when it was it wasn't used for the purpose you described.

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jul 02, 2012 - 17:21:58 »
No need to worry, raggthyme7, one would very often be correct to say, "but it's unfortunate when we use 10-year-old contemplation instead of the Scriptures, to understand the Scriptures."

But a lot depends on that particular 10-year-old child in 1964 who is doing that contemplation. For instance, he or she may very well grow up to unlock the intended meaning, beforehand, of the celestial events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 that shall occur just prior to Christ's return and, thus, have the gift of prophecy.

Unlocking something means it has hidden meaning, yet there's nothing "secret" about your interpretation of verse 29. Besides, I believe the gift of prophecy is no longer in operation, and that when it was it wasn't used for the purpose you described.

Well, you are correct, raggthyme7, the only plausible interpretation of Matthew 24:29-30a is not really a secret from insightful Christian astronomers living during the Last Days, as per Christ's statement recorded in Luke 21:25a, "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...."

But as you likely know (and I have been keenly aware of since age 8 in 1962), we live in a world in which less than one of every thousand individuals have a good knowledge of astronomy. (This will likely receive many disappoving comments from non-astronomers here.)

raggthyme7

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jul 02, 2012 - 17:56:36 »
No need to worry, raggthyme7, one would very often be correct to say, "but it's unfortunate when we use 10-year-old contemplation instead of the Scriptures, to understand the Scriptures."

But a lot depends on that particular 10-year-old child in 1964 who is doing that contemplation. For instance, he or she may very well grow up to unlock the intended meaning, beforehand, of the celestial events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 that shall occur just prior to Christ's return and, thus, have the gift of prophecy.

Unlocking something means it has hidden meaning, yet there's nothing "secret" about your interpretation of verse 29. Besides, I believe the gift of prophecy is no longer in operation, and that when it was it wasn't used for the purpose you described.

Well, you are correct, raggthyme7, the only plausible interpretation of Matthew 24:29-30a is not really a secret from insightful Christian astronomers living during the Last Days, as per Christ's statement recorded in Luke 21:25a, "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...."

But as you likely know (and I have been keenly aware of since age 8 in 1962), we live in a world in which less than one of every thousand individuals have a good knowledge of astronomy. (This will likely receive many disappoving comments from non-astronomers here.)


Is a literal rendering the only possibility for you? It appears you haven't even allowed yourself to consider that the darkening of the celestial bodies etc is a means of expressing the desolation of kingdoms, etc.

Matthew 24 (the entire chapter) should be read in the context of verses 1 and 2:

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


From simply reading within this context we should be able to see that the disciples tied His coming and the end of the age with the destruction of Herod's temple! In response to His statement they asked,

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



This is further evidenced by Luke's version of the same question:

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

If the entire chapter is kept within it's intended context it is undeniable that the signs Jesus speaks about are all related to that desolation.. in our past, not in our future.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 03, 2012 - 11:38:38 by raggthyme7 »

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #26 on: Tue Jul 03, 2012 - 15:31:32 »
Silly argument here.  Revelation tells us forthrightly that the stars are "a mystery" and then tells us what they symbolize:

Rev 1:20       The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Jarrod

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #27 on: Tue Jul 03, 2012 - 16:50:17 »
No need to worry, raggthyme7, one would very often be correct to say, "but it's unfortunate when we use 10-year-old contemplation instead of the Scriptures, to understand the Scriptures."

But a lot depends on that particular 10-year-old child in 1964 who is doing that contemplation. For instance, he or she may very well grow up to unlock the intended meaning, beforehand, of the celestial events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 that shall occur just prior to Christ's return and, thus, have the gift of prophecy.

Unlocking something means it has hidden meaning, yet there's nothing "secret" about your interpretation of verse 29. Besides, I believe the gift of prophecy is no longer in operation, and that when it was it wasn't used for the purpose you described.

Well, you are correct, raggthyme7, the only plausible interpretation of Matthew 24:29-30a is not really a secret from insightful Christian astronomers living during the Last Days, as per Christ's statement recorded in Luke 21:25a, "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...."

But as you likely know (and I have been keenly aware of since age 8 in 1962), we live in a world in which less than one of every thousand individuals have a good knowledge of astronomy. (This will likely receive many disappoving comments from non-astronomers here.)


Is a literal rendering the only possibility for you? It appears you haven't even allowed yourself to consider that the darkening of the celestial bodies etc is a means of expressing the desolation of kingdoms, etc.

Matthew 24 (the entire chapter) should be read in the context of verses 1 and 2:

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


From simply reading within this context we should be able to see that the disciples tied His coming and the end of the age with the destruction of Herod's temple! In response to His statement they asked,

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



This is further evidenced by Luke's version of the same question:

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

If the entire chapter is kept within it's intended context it is undeniable that the signs Jesus speaks about are all related to that desolation.. in our past, not in our future.



Yes, when Jesus makes the clear statement to his apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...." that will point to the general time of His return, that sounds very literal, doesn't it to you, raggthyme7?

When one becomes deeply interested in the science of astronomy (as I did as a bright child in the 1960s), he or she soon realizes that astronomy is the ONLY field of study of any kind that can predict future events with great precision and accuracy, often centuries in advance. So it made complete sense to me at the age of 10 that Christian astronomers---and only Christian astronomers---living just prior to His return will be able to derive the general time frame for Christ's return, evidently by using the celestial events described by Christ to His apostles in Matthew 24:29.

And, this has already been done by a few Christian astronomers, some as far back as in the year 1985.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 03, 2012 - 18:14:03 by Star of David »

raggthyme7

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #28 on: Tue Jul 03, 2012 - 18:17:03 »


Yes, when Jesus makes the clear statement to his apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...." that will point to the general time of His return, that sounds very literal, doesn't it to you, raggthyme7?


The disciple's question in Luke 21 was concerning the desolation of Jerusalem (specifically the timing and the signs that would accompany it)... not the end of the world. Please read it again from the beginning.

You say it sounds very literal.. was Isaiah speaking literally in chapter 13 when he prophesied against Ancient Babylon? Did the celestial bodies actually go dark?




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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #29 on: Thu Jul 05, 2012 - 16:53:14 »


Yes, when Jesus makes the clear statement to his apostles in Luke 21:25a that "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...." that will point to the general time of His return, that sounds very literal, doesn't it to you, raggthyme7?


The disciple's question in Luke 21 was concerning the desolation of Jerusalem (specifically the timing and the signs that would accompany it)... not the end of the world. Please read it again from the beginning.

You say it sounds very literal.. was Isaiah speaking literally in chapter 13 when he prophesied against Ancient Babylon? Did the celestial bodies actually go dark?






I interpret statements by Christ much more seriously and literally than I do any of Isaiah's statements. Christ was telling His apostles of the signs to look for that will precede His return.

After I stopped fearing that I might live to see the true stars actually falling from the sky (and, thus, vaporizing the earth) by age 10, Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a were still there in the Olivet Discourse which I assumed were meaningful statements by Christ. For some short period of time, I felt sorry for Jesus at the age of 10 for making a prediction that could never come true if He was referring to the true stars one day falling from the sky prior to His return.

But by the age of 11, I decided to give Him the benefit of the doubt and after doing literally over a hundred iterations of picturing how an adult Christian astronomer would make rational sense of the celestial events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29, I deduced by age 11 in 1965 that if He wasn't referring to a total solar eclipse in a special, perhaps critical part of the world ("the sun will be darkened and the moon will not shed her light") and a significant meteor shower ("the stars will fall from the sky") that were close together in time and identifiable by Christian astronomers beforehand, then there really is no other explanation for Matthew 24:29-30a that "holds any water" given what we have known in the science of astronomy for many decades now.

And I and a few other Christian astronomers have done exactly that quite some time ago. In my case, during 1965-1992.

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #30 on: Thu Jul 05, 2012 - 21:33:32 »

I interpret statements by Christ much more seriously and literally than I do any of Isaiah's statements.

Why is that? I consider Isaiah a prophet of God, and he used metaphorical images to express the desolation of Ancient Babylon. Jesus was The Prophet... shouldn't we expect that He would use similar images to convey the desolation of Jerusalem? As I mentioned before, Jerusalem was alluded to as "Babylon" by Peter. Maybe we were meant to tie the two together and conclude that Jesus was speaking figuratively about the sun, moon and stars... just like Isaiah. It makes perfect sense to me...


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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 16:11:32 »

I interpret statements by Christ much more seriously and literally than I do any of Isaiah's statements.

Why is that? I consider Isaiah a prophet of God, and he used metaphorical images to express the desolation of Ancient Babylon. Jesus was The Prophet... shouldn't we expect that He would use similar images to convey the desolation of Jerusalem? As I mentioned before, Jerusalem was alluded to as "Babylon" by Peter. Maybe we were meant to tie the two together and conclude that Jesus was speaking figuratively about the sun, moon and stars... just like Isaiah. It makes perfect sense to me...



I am curious, raggthyme7. When asked by His apostles only a day or two before His crucifixion the question, "What will be the sign of your return and the end of the age?" and part of Christ's response is in Luke 21:25a, "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...," how do you take that as a figurative statement about the sun, the moon, and the stars?

To me, you have a preconceived notion (or a notion that you read somewhere and accepted and embraced) that you cannot let go of.

To me, at age 11, it was clear that when Jesus told His apostles that "there will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars" that will point to the general time of His return, it was very clear to me that the Christian astronomers, only, who will be able to derive the general time of His return to earth.

The likely reason for this difference between you and me, raggthyme7, is the difference between an astronomer's thinking and reasoning abilities and that of a non-astronomer's.

In any event, I am happy to say that a handful of Christian astronomers (including myself) were not "asleep at the switch" when the celestial events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 did, indeed, take place several years ago.

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 18:22:19 »

of course the sun, moon and stars is figurative and prophetic language.

Israel's sun moon and stars-

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5pOlOuBpzs[/youtube]

raggthyme7

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 21:08:53 »


I am curious, raggthyme7. When asked by His apostles only a day or two before His crucifixion the question, "What will be the sign of your return and the end of the age?" and part of Christ's response is in Luke 21:25a, "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...," how do you take that as a figurative statement about the sun, the moon, and the stars?

To me, you have a preconceived notion (or a notion that you read somewhere and accepted and embraced) that you cannot let go of.


The reason I read it this way is because the question the disciples asked was directly related to Jesus' statement in Luke 21:6, which in turn was a response to their comments in 21:5... the context is the temple! The question in Luke says nothing of the end of the world nor of His coming:

"Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

What things? What do you see them asking about here?? I see only a question about the leveling of Herod's temple, because Jesus' had just told them that every stone of it would be thrown down.

And though Luke (by inspiration) records their question as only relating to this destruction he still records Jesus speaking of the sun, moon and stars... these things didn't literally go dark during that desolation did they? No, it was that same prophetic language employed by others, like Isaiah, used to express the utter ruin of the place. As I see it, Joseph's dream also gives indication that the sun, moon and stars were all relating to the house of Israel, I don't see any reason from the context to believe actual celestial bodies are being discussed here.

The preconceived notion I had before was that everything in Matt 24/ Luke 21 was literal.. but since looking into the OT prophets and the way they spoke against kingdoms time and again in similar fashion (which was often obviously not literal) made me rethink my position when looking at Jesus' prophecies.

I guess we will always disagree, but I am curious what you make of the commentaries I posted a couple pages back? They are futurist commentaries yet they acknowledge the metaphorical images used by the prophets. I just take that one step further and say I would expect the Lord to use the same sort of language in prophesying against Jerusalem.
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 21:22:52 by raggthyme7 »

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Re: Matthew 24:29-30a & Luke 21:25a
« Reply #34 on: Sat Jul 07, 2012 - 15:35:01 »


I am curious, raggthyme7. When asked by His apostles only a day or two before His crucifixion the question, "What will be the sign of your return and the end of the age?" and part of Christ's response is in Luke 21:25a, "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...," how do you take that as a figurative statement about the sun, the moon, and the stars?

To me, you have a preconceived notion (or a notion that you read somewhere and accepted and embraced) that you cannot let go of.


The reason I read it this way is because the question the disciples asked was directly related to Jesus' statement in Luke 21:6, which in turn was a response to their comments in 21:5... the context is the temple! The question in Luke says nothing of the end of the world nor of His coming:

"Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

What things? What do you see them asking about here?? I see only a question about the leveling of Herod's temple, because Jesus' had just told them that every stone of it would be thrown down.

And though Luke (by inspiration) records their question as only relating to this destruction he still records Jesus speaking of the sun, moon and stars... these things didn't literally go dark during that desolation did they? No, it was that same prophetic language employed by others, like Isaiah, used to express the utter ruin of the place. As I see it, Joseph's dream also gives indication that the sun, moon and stars were all relating to the house of Israel, I don't see any reason from the context to believe actual celestial bodies are being discussed here.

The preconceived notion I had before was that everything in Matt 24/ Luke 21 was literal.. but since looking into the OT prophets and the way they spoke against kingdoms time and again in similar fashion (which was often obviously not literal) made me rethink my position when looking at Jesus' prophecies.

I guess we will always disagree, but I am curious what you make of the commentaries I posted a couple pages back? They are futurist commentaries yet they acknowledge the metaphorical images used by the prophets. I just take that one step further and say I would expect the Lord to use the same sort of language in prophesying against Jerusalem.

Yes, raggthyme7, I think that you and I will always respectfully disagree.

Copied and pasted below is an edited narrative that I posted on an Internet site 10 years ago that describes the thought process that I went through to determine that Christ was telling His apostles that He was planning to return to earth sometime after the year 1999 on our calendar and not before. Do not be misled by the fact that the three celestial events indicated below that completely fulfilled Matthew 24:29 happen to be in a year at the turn of a millennium on mankind's calendar----that is just an unusual coincidence. Also, the fact that 12 1/2 years have passed since Matthew 24:29 was completely fulfilled in 1999 may be objected to by some people, but that's still less than 1% of the time that has passed since Christ's First Coming.

I could have posted the following on the day that I registered on this Christian forum website, June 25, 2012, but I wanted to pose to anyone interested the same questions that I asked myself when I was an avid 10-year-old amateur astronomer when I pondered the intended meaning of Christ's statements to His apostles recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a. I cannot fault, at all, any Christian End Times prophecy enthusiasts for believing the popularly-taught End Times scenario of Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, Rapture, '666', etc. as I fiercely believed this scenario, myself, during 1989-1990. But on December 13, 1990, I began to question this dire scenario and by 1992, God led me to realize, through sound, inspired reasoning on my part, that this is quite the opposite of God's actual plan for the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.

The primary reason why most Christians believe that there will be a cataclysmic end of the world just prior to Christ's return to earth is because the popularly-recognized End Times prophecy 'experts' (such as Hal Lindsey, Jack van Impe, Grant Jeffrey, Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins, etc.) teach this to the Christian masses which they embrace and believe. But because these popularly-recognized End Times prophecy 'experts' are not innate Christian astronomers (as I have been since age 8 in 1962), they are unable to "peel back the layers of onion" to truly determine God's true plan for the years leading up to the day of Christ's return to earth.


                        ***********************************************************


(Originally written in May, 2002)

In 1954, I was born into a farm family in northeast Missouri and fell in love with the oldest science of astronomy at age 8. Being a Catholic, I heard the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 and Luke 21) read aloud in Catholic mass on back-to-back Sundays on an annual basis during the 1960s and I was very intrigued by Christ's prediction in Matthew 24:29-30a that, just before He returns, "the sun will be darkened, the moon will not shed her light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the hosts of heaven will be shaken loose. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky...."

Because I assumed that Christ was referring to the true stars falling from the sky (each of the true stars being the size of our sun), between ages 9-10, I was terrified by the prospect of living during the time that this cataclysmic event would take place. By age 10 in 1964, I began to believe the astronomers who implied that the true stars will never fall from the sky and I began to look for a sensible explanation behind the events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29. Because Christ was quoted to tell His apostles in Luke 21:25a, that "there will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars...," it was apparent to me that the astronomers living just prior to Christ's return ought to be able to derive the general time frame for His return using the events described in Matthew 24:29. I quickly reasoned that "the stars will fall from the sky" can only be explained by a significant meteor shower. Also, during a total solar eclipse does "the sun will be darkened and the moon will not shed her light" for a few minutes over a narrow strip of land and ocean. Since there are usually one or two total solar eclipses each year, I reasoned that Christ must be referring to a total solar eclipse in a special, perhaps critical part of the world that the astronomers living just prior to Christ's return will be able to identify beforehand. The only prohibition, according to Christ in Matthew 24:36a, is that "no one knows the day or the hour" of His return--which isn't really too prohibitive.

The following year, in 1965, my sixth grade teacher mentioned to the class that the meteor storm in the news at that time, according to astronomers, will produce another meteor storm in 1999 which strongly raised my suspicions that this 1999 meteor storm might fulfill one of the celestial events predicted by Christ in Matthew 24:29.

I went on to become valedictorian of my high school class of 18 and, four years later, earned a B.S. in Agricultural Engineering, with honors, at the University of Missouri-Columbia in 1976. I began my engineering career with a very fine agency in the USDA, the Soil Conservation Service, shortly thereafter and married a very special woman and I was on my way---or so I had believed.

In 1979, I watched a movie by the popular End Times prophecy lecturer, Hal Lindsey, entitled "The Late, Great Planet Earth" and I learned of the basic Last Days scenario that is presently taught and accepted by many millions of people (Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, Rapture, etc.).

On January 10, 1989, my February, 1989 issue of ASTRONOMY magazine came in the mail containing an article entitled, "Eclipse Prospects For the 1990s". I naturally was curious of what the upcoming solar eclipses would be and at the end of the article was described the total solar eclipse on August 11, 1999 passing through central Europe and Iraq and Iran--and my eyes became as huge as saucers!! (as the anticipated November, 1999 Leonid meteor storm was very well known by all devoted astronomers, amateur and professional).

Because I was well aware that the very close proximity of a Mideast total solar eclipse and a Leonid meteor storm was exceedingly rare, occurring on the order of about once every 1000 years, I knew that I had uncovered a prophecy that was in the province of astronomers only.

The following three years would turn out to be a concerted effort on my part to get to the bottom of the truth during which I would suspect that there will be no cataclysmic 'end of the world' before Christ returns. Also, I would eventually realize that all Christian astronomers living at this time look a lot alike and it is very difficult to tell a particular one of them from all the others.

By late 1990, I realized that the last event described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 ("and the hosts of heaven will be shaken loose") was likely referring to the fact that in early 1999 the planet Pluto becomes farther from the sun than Neptune (after spending 20 years inside Neptune's orbit). This was confirmed in my mind in January, 1992 when I purchased a St. Jerome's Catholic Study Bible (copyright 1985) in which this last event in Matthew 24:29 had been dramatically changed to "and the powers in space will be driven from their courses." (This event could not be known by any human being until a few years after Pluto was discovered in 1930--plus I do not believe that the word 'space' was commonly used in this context in 30 A.D.)

These three diverse 1999 celestial events fulfilling what I am certain is the only plausible explanation for the events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 come together, for all practical purposes, only one time ever---in 1999. The probability that a total solar eclipse in Iraq and Iran, a Leonid meteor storm (which did produce a meteor storm over Israel---of all places!---and southern Europe at a peak rate of over 1,600 meteors per hour on the morning of November 18, 1999), and the crossing of Pluto over Neptune's orbit all occurring within a 12 month period of time is on the order of only once every 100,000 years.

When I wrote my first serious treatise on this subject on November 27, 1991 in a paper I entitled, "My Life's Thoughts on the Second Coming", I wrote:

"It is quite apparent that if an 11-year-old boy in 1965 can suspicion 1999 based only on a 33-year periodic meteor storm at the turn of the millennium that the fulfillment of Matthew 24:29 in 1999 has been known to astronomers for 40-50 years. Whether astronomers bothered to share their inside joke with any world or religious leaders is not clear."

Instead of a world-ending Armageddon or the appearance of an Antichrist (which I explain to be a popular myth), my speculation since early 1999 is that Christ's return is contingent with the attainment of a genuine and comprehensive Mideast peace agreement between Israel and her remaining Arab neighbors (the Palestinian Authority, Syria, and Lebanon) which, of course, is still some time off. But I believe that Christ will return to earth sometime during the lifetimes of most of those who are now living.


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