Author Topic: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?  (Read 3038 times)

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Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« on: Sun May 13, 2012 - 11:45:34 »
I will only respond to one verse at a time so as to keep it clear.


Here my first verse that Pre trib believers CANT use!

1. That believers will disapear in the TWINKLE of an EYE
(to the world they seem to just disapear)

1Cor 15:51-52 in a moment in a twinkling of an eye we shall be changed
15:53 our bodies from corruptable into incorruptible

Anyone like to give one verse that says only believers see rapture happen so to the rest of the world it seems they disappeared.

Anyone who believes the above? One verse to support your claim?

Offline fenton

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #1 on: Sun May 13, 2012 - 13:06:38 »
I will only respond to one verse at a time so as to keep it clear.


Here my first verse that Pre trib believers CANT use!

1. That believers will disapear in the TWINKLE of an EYE
(to the world they seem to just disapear)

1Cor 15:51-52 in a moment in a twinkling of an eye we shall be changed
15:53 our bodies from corruptable into incorruptible

Anyone like to give one verse that says only believers see rapture happen so to the rest of the world it seems they disappeared.

Anyone who believes the above? One verse to support your claim?




 rofl  rofl  rofl  rofl  rofl

how can believers see the rapture happen when they are caught up in it, see it? shucks we are going to participate in it


there are no believers left to testify.
geesh,  ::sarcasm::

Offline Linker

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #2 on: Sun May 13, 2012 - 19:37:35 »
There will be no believers in Jesus Christ left on the earth just after His harpazo action to immortalize them

All who are left on the earth will face His wrath and judgment


Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #3 on: Mon May 14, 2012 - 08:50:59 »
Larry says:

so I ask why anyone would use them for pre-trib justification?


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

Most believers are told that they just disappear during the rapture..
(pre trib). And I've seen them use the twinkle of an eye verse as it's bases.


Linker believes in this rapture and that only believers will see this - so in fact to the world they just disappear..... But this is a one on one debate for those who Teach the pre trib rapture....

So for THOSE WHO BELIEVE WE DISAPPEAR -  WHERES YOUR PROOF?


Offline afaithfulone4u

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #4 on: Wed May 16, 2012 - 21:20:10 »
Larry says:

so I ask why anyone would use them for pre-trib justification?


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

Most believers are told that they just disappear during the rapture..
(pre trib). And I've seen them use the twinkle of an eye verse as it's bases.


Linker believes in this rapture and that only believers will see this - so in fact to the world they just disappear..... But this is a one on one debate for those who Teach the pre trib rapture....

So for THOSE WHO BELIEVE WE DISAPPEAR -  WHERES YOUR PROOF?



 Only the elect(they) see him for it does not say the world sees him. And the martyr's asleep in heaven under the altar in white arise and come first to meet Christ and those who remain "ALIVE" on earth meaning having the Spirit and still above ground shall meet them in the air in the middle 3-1/2 years into the tribulation. These will be the children birthed to & inherit the Woman the city heavenly Jerusalem. Rev.12:5


Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV



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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #4 on: Wed May 16, 2012 - 21:20:10 »



Offline Linker

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #5 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 05:34:30 »
Matthew 24:29-31 is not the Lord's harpazo action to immortalize today's believer .... it is a gathering on the earth of believing mortal Israelites who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Acts 1:6] .... this event will take place after those days of the tribulation

The pre-tribulation church will be immortalized just before the Lord's hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth [1Corinthians 15:14-23; 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5: 1-9; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

It is the spoilers who come in the Lord's name and refute this truth [Matthew 24:4-5]

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #6 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 11:38:07 »
Larry says:

so I ask why anyone would use them for pre-trib justification?


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

Most believers are told that they just disappear during the rapture..
(pre trib). And I've seen them use the twinkle of an eye verse as it's bases.


Linker believes in this rapture and that only believers will see this - so in fact to the world they just disappear..... But this is a one on one debate for those who Teach the pre trib rapture....

So for THOSE WHO BELIEVE WE DISAPPEAR -  WHERES YOUR PROOF?



 Only the elect(they) see him for it does not say the world sees him. And the martyr's asleep in heaven under the altar in white arise and come first to meet Christ and those who remain "ALIVE" on earth meaning having t
he Spirit and still above ground shall meet them in the air in the middle 3-1/2 years into the tribulation. These will be the children birthed to & inherit the Woman the city heavenly Jerusalem. Rev.12:5


Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV





1. Rev 1:7 says ALL eyes see the son of man coming on the clouds even those who pierced him (the Romans did this) so even the dead see him come

2. Daniel 12:2 many who sleep in the dust awake to Everlasting life and some to everlasting shame
(they awake at the same time)

3. 2thess 1:7 Paul tells ALL believers to wait with THEM until Christ comes from Heaven
1:10 this is why all eyes see Christ come (rev1:7) so Jesus is glorified before all those eyes


Rev 6:14-17 all the people of the world see the sky open and expose the Father and son in Heaven
this fulfills matt 26:64 the next time anyone sees Christ is Rev 6:16.

So it's clear everyone sees Christ come in great power and glory

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #7 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 12:05:22 »
Larry - ok let me see if I answer what your asking:

1cor 15:51 we shall not all sleep (die) but we (elect) shall all be changed
A. This is Daniel 12:2
B. This is the Tribulation rapture when the day is shortened for the elects sake

15:52 our bodies changed from this to that in twinkle of an eye.


At the last Trump - when our bodies are changed death has no victory on us.

Rev 20:6 he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection death has no power over.
The rapture is that first resurrection.

Rev 20:14 and Death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire

so at rapture death has no sing - so the last trump happens then


Those who die after the rapture:

They have No part in the marriage supper and do not come back with Christ or take part of his 1000 yr reign... (Rev 14:13 - they rest 14:14 rapture happening)


The 144,000 will preach to the Israelites and even some Gentiles will believe

all eyes will see Jesus come and there will be Gentiles who see it and accept Christ.


God makes it easy for the Israelites to accept Christ just after seeing him do the rapture..


so the last trump happens at 14:14
no one knows the day not even the son and we see this in 14:15 as a angel comes out from the father to tell Jesus it's time amd we see the rapture happen (16) and the rest (18) are gathered for Armageddon (20-21)



Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #8 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 12:31:49 »
Matthew 24:29-31 is not the Lord's harpazo action to immortalize today's believer .... it is a gathering on the earth of believing mortal Israelites who will enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Acts 1:6] .... this event will take place after those days of the tribulation

The pre-tribulation church will be immortalized just before the Lord's hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth [1Corinthians 15:14-23; 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5: 1-9; Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

It is the spoilers who come in the Lord's name and refute this truth [Matthew 24:4-5]

what this really comes down to is first we have to establish when the Tribulation starts before we can debate the pre trib rapture...

You say it starts with Gods wrath Rev 8:7

and I say it happens when Jesus opens the First seal at 6:1
this brings the 5 horseman to start the tribulation

It only makes sense that the tribulation starts at the first seal.

You are right about one thing, The rapture happens right before Gods wrath

but it is the tribulation rapture..... As soon as the agreement is signed Jesus opens the first seal.


Offline psalm22

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #9 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 14:57:17 »
      One small point or question to add to the thought on Rapture or pre-trib rapture.  If you think the timing of the rapture happens in conjunction with the "last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Corinthians, and you believe that this last trumpet sounds prior to the tribulation then how do you account for the 7 additional trumpets sounded in Rev. 8 through 13????

       If the rapture takes place before the tribulation should we not read at the last trump... except for the 7 more that will come.
       Interestingly enough, I think there is a case to be made that the last of the 7 trumpet judgements could be the last trump.

     From Rev. 11:   And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

   16 And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God,

   17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast; because thou hast taken thy great power, and didst reign.

   18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.

   19 And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

and later in 12

     12:10 "And I heard a great voice in heaven, saying, Now is come the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accuseth them before our God day and night. "

      The events that follow the seventh trumpet sound like a plausible heavenly view of what 1 Corinthians describes. If this is the last trump, it happens after the breaking of the 7th seal so it cannot begin the tribulation.

      In addition, Paul makes mention about the conquering or destruction of death and this does not occur until Rev: 20

     14 "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire."

     IMHO there is a thin enough case for a "Rapture of the Church"  at all.  There is little to no case for a pre-tribulation rapture.     

Offline Linker

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #10 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 18:14:01 »
"As to the man child being up to God in Revelation 12:5 which I believe to be the 144,000"

Larry .... the "man child is the Lord" who was caught up in the first century .... this is prophecy 101

Understand that Revelation 12 is about Israel, Satan, and the Lord .... past and future .... some of the verses speak of past events to give overview .... there are a number of these reach backs in Revelation's unfolding .... the Lord looks at the whole setting and links the past with the time of the end of this present age

Offline Linker

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #11 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 18:30:05 »
"One small point or question to add to the thought on Rapture or pre-trib rapture.  If you think the timing of the rapture happens in conjunction with the "last trumpet" mentioned in 1 Corinthians, and you believe that this last trumpet sounds prior to the tribulation then how do you account for the 7 additional trumpets sounded in Rev. 8 through 13"

I will address your statements briefly .....

The 7 Revelation trumpets are judgment trumpets ..... every one of them ..... there is no resurrection associated with any of them within the context of the associated passages of scripture

.... and there is an additional trumpet sounding after the tribulation, and this one is not a resurrection trumpet either [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... this trumpet will sound immediately after the days of the tribulation and the Lord will gather all of the believing Israelites on the earth who survive the time of Jacob's trouble .... this is not a resurrection for them, and they will be mortals who will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom on the earth

Those who become believers and are killed during the tribulation will have to wait until the end of it for their resurrection [Revelation 6:9-11; 15:2-3; 20:4 .... those beheaded]

Here is the pre-tribulation church .... the evidence of the results of the Lord's harpazo action to immortalize His church just before the tribulation begins and they are seen Revelation as the tribulation unfolds dwelling in the heavenly state of immortality [1Thessalonians 5:1-9; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:4; 19:1-9; 20:4 .... those on thrones .... symbol of the Lord's government]

And these will be with the Lord contending at Armageddon prior to the end of the tribulation [Joel 2:1-11; Zechariah 14:1-5; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 19:14]

One must discover and understand these things in order to know the correct rendering of the timing of His harpazo action for today's believers of His church [both those asleep and those living at the time] in relation to His hour [time] of trial that is coming upon the whole world .... this judgment will come suddenly and with no warning [Psalms 2; Matthew 24:36-39; Revelation 6:12-17]

Know that the seals of the scroll are portents [previews] of the coming tribulation .... not the actual events themselves .... the scroll containing the actual events will not open until the Lord removes all of them

.... then the tribulation will begin and it is the 6th and 7th seals that lead up to the beginning of the tribulation period .... the sounding of the first 6 trumpets [chapter 8 and 9] in tandum rapid fire will set up the backdrop of the tribulation period which will last for 2550 days

The 7th judgment trumpet will sound toward the ending of the tribulation and this will bring the Lord's wrath upon the kingdom of the beast and his followers [Ezekiel 39; Daniel 9:27; 11:45; Joel 2:20; 3:9-17; Zechariah 12:2-9; 14:1-3; Revelation 14:14-20; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]
« Last Edit: Thu May 17, 2012 - 18:57:10 by Linker »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #12 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 19:14:57 »
LARRY

1. Rev 12:1-2 is Mary with Jesus
Satan tries to kill Jesus - Herod killed all the children trying to kill Jesus.

12:3 is Satan who ALSO has:
7 Heads 7 Crowns 10 Horns

Antichrist has:(Rev 13:1)
7 Heads 10 Crowns 10 Horns

12:4 1/3rd of Angels followed Satan - Stars = Angels
Satan wants to Kill Jesus

12:5 Jesus is the one who will rule with a rod of iron
and he is caught up to the right hand of the father

12:6 is Israel during the tribulation fleeing to Dan 11:41.

Jesus is the man child.
That rules with rod of iron (Rev 2:27 - 19:15) shows that it's Jesus who rules with a rod of iron!


Offline Linker

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #13 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 19:29:12 »
"1. Rev 12:1-2 is Mary with Jesus"

No ... this "woman" is the nation of Israel .... Mary is not in this vision, or any prophetic vision for that matter

Mary died just like all do and if she was a believer, then she awaits the Lord's harpazo action to resurrect and immortalize her

She is not in heaven now as the RCC would have it

And it will not be Mary who flees into the wilderness and from the beast .... it will be a believing remnant part of Israel who will flee at the middle of the 70th week decreed


Offline afaithfulone4u

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #14 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 19:56:29 »
LARRY

1. Rev 12:1-2 is Mary with Jesus
Satan tries to kill Jesus - Herod killed all the children trying to kill Jesus.

12:3 is Satan who ALSO has:
7 Heads 7 Crowns 10 Horns

Antichrist has:(Rev 13:1)
7 Heads 10 Crowns 10 Horns

12:4 1/3rd of Angels followed Satan - Stars = Angels
Satan wants to Kill Jesus

12:5 Jesus is the one who will rule with a rod of iron
and he is caught up to the right hand of the father

12:6 is Israel during the tribulation fleeing to Dan 11:41.

Jesus is the man child.
That rules with rod of iron (Rev 2:27 - 19:15) shows that it's Jesus who rules with a rod of iron!



Christ's holy body is the man child that is caught up in Rev 12:5 and Satan is thrown down for the last 3-1/2yrs of the tribulation. Jesus is the one giving the revelation to John of the things to COME, not of past, so that tells us he is not talking about himself who ascended up already, not caught up as in QUICKLY in the twinkling of an eye.
 The two witnesses must come first, in the same hour (God's time or our time?)the earthquake in Jerusalem where the 7,000 devout Jews who are reserved by God 1Kings 19:18,Romans10:4,Rev.11:13 shall die to their flesh bodies for these will not be part of the body of Christ, THEN the birth of the son's of God to the Woman heavenly City known as Christ's body Man child, 12 tribes of Jacob, rather Jew or Gentile, male or female they will be of one corporate body  of Aaron's Rod that budded(Priests and kings, judges)with a male head(Christ's) They shall rule with Christ for the 1,000 yrs with a rod of iron(The Word of God) and EVERY KNEW SHALL BOW TO THE WORD!
On his head are MANY CROWNS for he has a many membered body of 144,000 who have not defiled themselves being unfaithful to the Word of God they like him will be the temple in the Bride heavenly Jerusalem.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #15 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 19:59:43 »
Larry this is really for those who believe in the pre trib rapture
I do not....

If you wish to debate when the rapture happens or something sure


Here are a few things I will debate

1. There's no pre trib rapture
2. once saved always saved is a lie
3. Believers are NOT in heaven at death
4. The Antichrist is roman
5. The antichrist is Not Islamic
6. Tribulation starts at Jesus opening first seal
7. Gog and Satan are not the same

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #16 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 20:38:09 »
Larry said:

Here I would ask when you believe the wedding will occur?  I will suggest to you Matthew 25:1  Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And Matthew 25:6  And at midnight (The middle of the tribulation) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. All the church will have been caught up by that time; even those who come out of great tribulation in Reveklation 7:14.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

the wedding feast happens after the Rapture and Before we come back with Christ to set up His 1000 year kingdom.

One of the angels who has the 7 vials shows John the Bride of Christ (Rev 21:9) this is After the angel poured out his vial. We are the bride just after the rapture when Jesus takes us to heaven for our marrige (matt 25:10)

Matt 25 the ten virgins
1. are all saved
2. All go out to meet Christ
3. Master is delayed - pre trib rapture Jesus doesn't show up
4. Five virgins fall away because Christ didn't show for the promised coming.
5. Tribulation jesus shows up and their not ready - they fell away
6. They are left and the 5 elect virgins go to the marrage and the wedding feast and the other virgins are too late the wedding is over and the dinner is served and their not invited.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #17 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 20:55:04 »
Larry said:

And Matthew 25:6  And at midnight (The middle of the tribulation) there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. All the church will have been caught up by that time; even those who come out of great tribulation in Reveklation 7:14.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

the Middle of the nite is really a play on the following:

1. The virgins can't buy the other virgins "Works" and where not Watching for christ's return.
They also can't buy from a closed store at midnite either.

Offline Linker

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #18 on: Thu May 17, 2012 - 20:56:22 »
"Christ's holy body is the man child that is caught up in Rev 12:5"

No the church is not the "man child" of Revelation 12 .... this is the Lord

It is blasphemy to say that the Lord is your church .... this heresy was taught by the MSOG movements of the late 1800s and it has emerged again as of recent

I would suggest that you investigate what you are following .... there are many good evaluations of the MSOG "man child" ruse that you are engaged in and definite reasons from moving away from it

Offline 7angels

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jun 18, 2012 - 22:29:52 »
i am at a loss at where you come up with all of larry's posts.  i believe in the pretrib rapture if you wish to discuss it with me.  it helps me and hopefully will help you see why i believe what i believe.

God bless

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Jun 19, 2012 - 00:13:55 »
Larry this is really for those who believe in the pre trib rapture
I do not....

If you wish to debate when the rapture happens or something sure

Here are a few things I will debate

1. There's no pre trib rapture
2. once saved always saved is a lie
3. Believers are NOT in heaven at death
4. The Antichrist is roman
5. The antichrist is Not Islamic
6. Tribulation starts at Jesus opening first seal
7. Gog and Satan are not the same



Quote from: Knowledge Bomb

Here are a few things I will debate

1. There's no pre trib rapture
2. once saved always saved is a lie
3. Believers are NOT in heaven at death
4. The Antichrist is roman
5. The antichrist is Not Islamic
6. Tribulation starts at Jesus opening first seal
7. Gog and Satan are not the same


1.  Yes there is: Rev.4:4 = dead in Christ, 4:6 = alive at Jesus' coming in the air, and 14:1 = the 144,000 caught up in 12:5.
2.  If you're not saved, you're going through the tribulation then; not me. ::hiding::

3.  Is the thief in paradise? Where is paradise? 2 Corinthians 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise . . Believer's spirits are present with the Lord; their bodies remain in the grave.

4.  Agreed.

5.  Redundant - Agreed.

6.   Rev. 6:2  And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he (the antichrist) that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. This actually begins according to Daniel 9:27 with the signing of the covenant with many, though I'm not certain if they're not at the same point in time. The antichrist will conquer politically.

7.  Agreed.

Case Closed. 

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 11:51:20 »
i am at a loss at where you come up with all of larry's posts.  i believe in the pretrib rapture if you wish to discuss it with me.  it helps me and hopefully will help you see why i believe what i believe.

God bless

I started a Larry vs KB debate just give it a day after Larry answers and I believe I'll answer you too!


But go ahead and list why you believe such things.... I too Once believed in the pre trib rapture, the church I was saved in taught it and all my friends there believed it and that was fine with me. So one day couple years ago I was tried of all the views so I decided to not listen to what anyone had told me and study to find out for myself then I'd know... That's was it until I found it I was lied to and couldn't stand that others were believeing in error and pre trib or mid trib is a HUGE difference to find yourself in.... And it then made me ask: wha else have I been lied to about: once saved always
saved - lie


So just give the verses which you think support your views?

Offline 7angels

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #22 on: Fri Jun 22, 2012 - 20:56:15 »
i am at a loss at where you come up with all of larry's posts.  i believe in the pretrib rapture if you wish to discuss it with me.  it helps me and hopefully will help you see why i believe what i believe.

God bless

I started a Larry vs KB debate just give it a day after Larry answers and I believe I'll answer you too!


But go ahead and list why you believe such things.... I too Once believed in the pre trib rapture, the church I was saved in taught it and all my friends there believed it and that was fine with me. So one day couple years ago I was tried of all the views so I decided to not listen to what anyone had told me and study to find out for myself then I'd know... That's was it until I found it I was lied to and couldn't stand that others were believeing in error and pre trib or mid trib is a HUGE difference to find yourself in.... And it then made me ask: wha else have I been lied to about: once saved always
saved - lie


So just give the verses which you think support your views?
here are a few verses to start with

1 thes 4:13-18
john 14:1-3
zech 14:4-5
1 cor 15:51-54

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #23 on: Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 11:04:58 »
7angels said:

zech 14:4-5


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Zech 14:4-5 I don't see a pre trib rapture here..... But I do see Many verses here and this is to those who see the armies surround Jerusalem to flee to the wilderness..... This is when the armies directed by the Anichrist surround Jerusalem which happens at the 1260 day breaking of Daniel 9:27.....

A great earthquake splits the mountians in two's so the Israelites can flee to edom Moab ect which God will protect from the Antichrist....


Dan 11:41 tells that He (Antichrist) shall enter Israel and many Muslim countrys around Israel but these will be sparred (edom Moab ect). We can see this in Rev 12:13-15 -    Matt 24:15-20
Mark 13:14-19 Luke 21:20-24.

(times time and half time = 1260 days that they are protected). 
 
The rapture hasn't happened yet!  So no pre trib here....4


So lets put Zech and a pre trib rapture to rest!

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #24 on: Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 11:14:09 »
7angels said:

john 14:1-3

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

this says Jesus is coming again for us but nothing to do with any timing

Says nothing of a pre trib rapture....

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #25 on: Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 12:53:03 »
7angels said:

zech 14:4-5


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:


Zech 14:4-5 I don't see a pre trib rapture here..... But I do see Many verses here and this is to those who see the armies surround Jerusalem to flee to the wilderness..... This is when the armies directed by the Anichrist surround Jerusalem which happens at the 1260 day breaking of Daniel 9:27.....

A great earthquake splits the mountians in two's so the Israelites can flee to edom Moab ect which God will protect from the Antichrist....


Dan 11:41 tells that He (Antichrist) shall enter Israel and many Muslim countrys around Israel but these will be sparred (edom Moab ect). We can see this in Rev 12:13-15 -    Matt 24:15-20
Mark 13:14-19 Luke 21:20-24.

(times time and half time = 1260 days that they are protected). 
 
The rapture hasn't happened yet!  So no pre trib here....4


So lets put Zech and a pre trib rapture to rest!

you misunderstand what i was using zech 14:4-5 for.  it foretells that the day of the Lord is when Jesus with his church will return and end the great tribulation.  the day of the Lord will be when Jesus actually comes to earth for his remaining saints to fetch them and then we all move into the millennium.  1 thes 4:16-17 shows us that the rapture takes place in the air and that Jesus never touches the ground.  unlike in the day of the lord Jesus comes down to earth. 

7angels said:

john 14:1-3

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

this says Jesus is coming again for us but nothing to do with any timing

Says nothing of a pre trib rapture....

you are right this verse does not say anything about the rapture specifically but when stuck with what we know of other verses it does or can be interpreted that way.  people who have been privileged enough to get a glimpse of heaven and seen these mansions and what is inside them makes for an amazing testimony.  but the word teaches that these mansions and other rewards are for those who are overcomers in Christ.  being saved does not mean you will get one of these mansions because the word also teaches that while some get rewards others will go through the fire and only come out with their salvation.  the rapture teaches that these overcomers are the bride of Christ or the church.  the church will not go through the wrath of God according to the word and the tribulation is God's wrath on isreal. 

i will leave it here for now to here your response

God bless

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #26 on: Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 14:47:17 »
7angels said:

you misunderstand what i was using zech 14:4-5 for.  it foretells that the day of the Lord is when Jesus with his church will return and end the great tribulation.  the day of the Lord will be when Jesus actually comes to earth for his remaining saints to fetch them and then we all move into the millennium.  1 thes 4:16-17 shows us that the rapture takes place in the air and that Jesus never touches the ground.  unlike in the day of the lord Jesus comes down to earth. 

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

you say:

1. The day of Lord is when Jesus and saints come to end trib and he "fetches" the remaining saints and move to mill....

Question where's it show Christ come back to rule and pick up more saints?

Rev 14:14-17 doesn't mention a pickup
Rev 19:11-21 doesn't mention it either






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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #27 on: Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 14:59:20 »
7 angels said:

you are right this verse does not say anything about the rapture specifically but when stuck with what we know of other verses it does or can be interpreted that way.  people who have been privileged enough to get a glimpse of heaven and seen these mansions and what is inside them makes for an amazing testimony.  but the word teaches that these mansions and other rewards are for those who are overcomers in Christ.  being saved does not mean you will get one of these mansions because the word also teaches that while some get rewards others will go through the fire and only come out with their salvation.  the rapture teaches that these overcomers are the bride of Christ or the church.  the church will not go through the wrath of God according to the word and the tribulation is God's wrath on isreal. 

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

were talking pre trib rapture and you gave that verse.... It only means that there are Homes for us but nothing of timing.....


The last sentence is incorrect - gods wrath does not start the tribulation!
Tribulation starts with the first seal Jesus opens (rev 6:12)
the wrath doesn't start until 8:7 and we will be gone who are Ready!


Also the tribulation is to try the WHOLE world of which Israel is a part of...
This is daniels 70th week! And it starts with Daniel 9:27 agreement. Which is the rider on the white horses appearance!

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #28 on: Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 21:37:09 »
7angels said:

you misunderstand what i was using zech 14:4-5 for.  it foretells that the day of the Lord is when Jesus with his church will return and end the great tribulation.  the day of the Lord will be when Jesus actually comes to earth for his remaining saints to fetch them and then we all move into the millennium.  1 thes 4:16-17 shows us that the rapture takes place in the air and that Jesus never touches the ground.  unlike in the day of the lord Jesus comes down to earth. 

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

you say:

1. The day of Lord is when Jesus and saints come to end trib and he "fetches" the remaining saints and move to mill....

Question where's it show Christ come back to rule and pick up more saints?

Rev 14:14-17 doesn't mention a pickup
Rev 19:11-21 doesn't mention it either

rev 19:7-9 shows the bride of Christ marriage and the supper of the lamb.  rev 19:14 decribes the bride of Christ riding with Jesus back to earth.

rev 20:4 shows us those that were left that died during thee great trib.

Offline 7angels

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #29 on: Sat Jun 23, 2012 - 21:59:04 »
7 angels said:

you are right this verse does not say anything about the rapture specifically but when stuck with what we know of other verses it does or can be interpreted that way.  people who have been privileged enough to get a glimpse of heaven and seen these mansions and what is inside them makes for an amazing testimony.  but the word teaches that these mansions and other rewards are for those who are overcomers in Christ.  being saved does not mean you will get one of these mansions because the word also teaches that while some get rewards others will go through the fire and only come out with their salvation.  the rapture teaches that these overcomers are the bride of Christ or the church.  the church will not go through the wrath of God according to the word and the tribulation is God's wrath on isreal. 

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

were talking pre trib rapture and you gave that verse.... It only means that there are Homes for us but nothing of timing.....


The last sentence is incorrect - gods wrath does not start the tribulation!
Tribulation starts with the first seal Jesus opens (rev 6:12)
the wrath doesn't start until 8:7 and we will be gone who are Ready!


Also the tribulation is to try the WHOLE world of which Israel is a part of...
This is daniels 70th week! And it starts with Daniel 9:27 agreement. Which is the rider on the white horses appearance!


what i don't understand is why it really matters one way or the other.  even if we get raptured out at mid trib we still will not be going through the worst of it.  the word also does not specifically say when we will be raptured out but only that it will happen.  if you are trying to find scripture that specifically states that then you are in for a disappointment.  i was showing you the scriptures i stand on to believe for the pretrib rapture.  for me personally i would not even mind a mid trib rapture as long as i am gone before the wrath of God hits.  you are right that the wrath of God happens after the 3 1/2 mark of the great trib.  my mind sometimes runs faster then my finger types.  so since there is no scriptural certainty about the time period that everyone can agree on that we will just have to agree to disagree.  a lot of the scripture used for pretribbers can also be used for mid tribbers. 

the reason i believe it is pretrib is that most scholars agree that the great trib is coming for judgement on isreal and is a last ditch effort to get any stragglers into the kingdom.  since the church is not going to endure God's wrath there is no reason for them to even go through the great trib at all.  mid tribbers basically come from the same stand point with the exception that the rapture comes in the middle of the great trib.  why argue over such a small technicality?  i thought you did not believe in the rapture at all.  otherwise i would not of gotten involved.  it is too easy to get scripture to say what you want to see and neither you or larry are willing to look at the rapture from each other's view but instead are just arguing semantics.  this is unscriptural because neither of you are willing to concede but just keep trying to prove yourself correct.  that is pride and not truth you are trying to defend.  i hope this wakes you up and hopefully you will realize how useless this argument really is.

God bless

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: PRE TRIB RAPTURE - Show where this is?!?
« Reply #30 on: Sun Jun 24, 2012 - 17:06:10 »
7 angels none of your scripture tells of a pre trib rapture, you come on my OP o debate a false teaching and then you say it doesn't matter....

And you are wrong about the bible telling when and I'm not talking the day but when during the tribulaton and again your feeling rule over scripture....

I'm glad you FEEL theres a pre trib rapture...


Funny how when I give verses you don't correct them as I do yours...

You submitted some verses for proof of a pre trib and then said about one:
I know it doesn't say anything about a pre trib rapture... But yet you will still use it for your beliefs....


So 7 angels Paul says in 2thess to wait till Christ comes to be gathered to him and it's after the man of sin sits in the temple which is midtrib..... If you believe it's before then you've been decieved...


Put that with your "why I believe" verses cause it says No to a pre trib rapture

this is why 2:2 is saying don't believe that Jesus came and you didn't know it
aka: the secret rapture aka pre trib rapture...


The cry of the pre trib rapture bird!