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We DON’T “explain it away”, DaveW. 

We believe it is the actual, literal tribes of the land of Israel that are being discussed in Rev. 1:7 that would be mourning and grieving at the FIRST-CENTURY return of Christ. 

This is proved by the same prediction Christ gave to His fellow-Israelites in Luke 13:24-30.  In that prophecy, Christ said it was going to be those of HIS OWN PEOPLE who were of HIS OWN GENERATION OF ISRAELITE TRIBES who would be pleading with “weeping and gnashing of teeth” for the “Master” to open the door and allow them entrance to the kingdom of God along with the patriarchs and prophets.  It was going to be tribal members who had PERSONALLY experienced Christ teaching in their own streets, and who had actually eaten and drunk “IN THY PRESENCE” (Luke 13:26). 

There is ONLY ONE GENERATION OF TRIBES OF ISRAEL who could possibly claim to have experienced this, and it was those of the first century who were PERSONALLY ministered to by the incarnate Christ before His ascension in Acts 1:9. 

Even if you were somehow magically able to identify those today who had descended from all the former tribes of Israel, this Rev. 1:7 verse would never apply to them, because they could not PERSONALLY claim to have “eaten and drunk IN THY PRESENCE”, and Christ would not PERSONALLY AND BODILY have “taught in their streets”, as the weeping tribal members of Israel were going to claim when Christ returned in THEIR GENERATION.

On the contrary, DaveW.  ALL those texts (Rev. 1:7, Zech.12:10, and Luke 13:28) are describing the SAME occasion of the tribes of Israel (the earth - tes ges) mourning when they would see Christ returning.

Christ specifically limited this “weeping and gnashing of teeth” to those who had literally  seen Christ teaching in their streets, and who had literally eaten and drunk in His very presence as the incarnate Christ while He was on earth.  This CANNOT POSSIBLY be descriptive of any other current civilization in any corner of the world since Christ’s ascension back in Acts 1:9 - not even the Americas, Africa, East Asia, or the Pacific Islands you mentioned.  Indeed, that WOULD be adding to scripture to include those, since people in that list of countries you gave never ate and drank in His presence, and He never bodily taught in their streets.

The phrase “tes ges” refers to “THE LAND”, which to the Israelite mind commonly meant their own promised land of Israel.  Remember that Christ promised in Luke 21:23 “great distress in THE LAND (tes ges), and wrath upon this people”?  He meant wrath upon the people of THE LAND OF ISRAEL in that context of Luke 21:23, with specific emphasis upon Judea and Jerusalem.  This is not adding to scripture as you are assuming.

Have you ever studied the ancient Jewish texts to understand what the Apostles grew up understanding about the "Messianic Kingdom?"

  No, it didn't happen that way. Jesus did NOT return in AD 70. He mentions only ONE return to earth, when He will be seen by all, not just Israelis, and it'll be just after the great trib, as He Himself said.

  You've gotta get it outta your head that those events have already occurred, when it's obvious they HAVEN'T. Those who pierced Him will see Him from hades then.

  He will not return to earth at the rapture, Instead, He will call us to Him, to meet Him in the air.

  And, while His kingdom exists now, it will not be in full manifestation until He returns to earth & rules the world from Jerusalem.

Hey robycop3, I  agree with you that those who pierced Him (which was those Israelites of that guilty first-century generation - many of whom had died before AD 70) would see Him from Hades.

Guess what?  According to Rev 20:14, the wicked dead as the occupants of Hades (the grave) were cast into the Lake of Fire.  And it was in AD 70.  This verse tells us that this Lake of Fire was the city of Jerusalem’s “Second Death” - almost an exact duplicate of the city’s first death under the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC, as recorded by Jeremiah. 

Before Nebuchadnezzar came to invade Jerusalem, the ruling men in Jerusalem had made a covenant with Death and Hades in Isaiah 28:15, that they should not be overtaken by them.  This covenant with Death and Hades was disannulled by God, and they were overcome by Death and Hades (the grave) in Jerusalem’s first death by the Babylonian invasion.  Later in AD 70, Death and Hades were cast into the city’s Lake of Fire; this time as part of God taking down the city and the nation of Israel for a second time.

This was the “resurrection to damnation” (destruction - not eternal torment) of the wicked dead in the city of Jerusalem in AD 70.  It’s how the rich man who had died in the Luke 16 parable (which was Caiphas) actually saw the return of Christ (as Christ predicted when standing on trial before Caiphas).  From inside the city of Jerusalem with its Lake of Fire conditions, Caiphas saw Lazarus the resurrected beloved disciple with the resurrected Abraham across that “great gulf fixed” (which was the Kidron Valley between them). 

You don’t realize it, but the way you phrased your comment is actually agreeing with me that there has to be two returns of Christ: one return when the resurrected saints were to be raptured and meet Christ in the air as He returned to heaven with them from the Mount of a Olives, and another return when Christ actually will be on earth to rule bodily among His people on a planet purged finally of all human evil.  These are two separate scenarios for Christ’s two separate returns: one in AD 70, and one in our future.

 

Hey robycop3, I  agree with you that those who pierced Him (which was those Israelites of that guilty first-century generation - many of whom had died before AD 70) would see Him from Hades.

  You're getting somewhere now!

Guess what?  According to Rev 20:14, the wicked dead as the occupants of Hades (the grave) were cast into the Lake of Fire.  And it was in AD 70.  This verse tells us that this Lake of Fire was the city of Jerusalem’s “Second Death” - almost an exact duplicate of the city’s first death under the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC, as recorded by Jeremiah.

  Yes, the wicked WILL BE cast into the LOF. So far, they have been thus cast only in the vision shown to John. The actual event hasn't yet occurred. And also, the souls of the RIGHTEOUS dead are also in hades, in its paradise area.

Before Nebuchadnezzar came to invade Jerusalem, the ruling men in Jerusalem had made a covenant with Death and Hades in Isaiah 28:15, that they should not be overtaken by them.  This covenant with Death and Hades was disannulled by God, and they were overcome by Death and Hades (the grave) in Jerusalem’s first death by the Babylonian invasion.  Later in AD 70, Death and Hades were cast into the city’s Lake of Fire; this time as part of God taking down the city and the nation of Israel for a second time.

  Again, those latter events haven't yet happened. People still die, which is absolute proof death hasn't yet been banished.

This was the “resurrection to damnation” (destruction - not eternal torment) of the wicked dead in the city of Jerusalem in AD 70.  It’s how the rich man who had died in the Luke 16 parable (which was Caiphas) actually saw the return of Christ (as Christ predicted when standing on trial before Caiphas).  From inside the city of Jerusalem with its Lake of Fire conditions, Caiphas saw Lazarus the resurrected beloved disciple with the resurrected Abraham across that “great gulf fixed” (which was the Kidron Valley between them).

  Now, you're talking nonsense.

You don’t realize it, but the way you phrased your comment is actually agreeing with me that there has to be two returns of Christ: one return when the resurrected saints were to be raptured and meet Christ in the air as He returned to heaven with them from the Mount of a Olives, and another return when Christ actually will be on earth to rule bodily among His people on a planet purged finally of all human evil.  These are two separate scenarios for Christ’s two separate returns: one in AD 70, and one in our future.

  How silly! Jesus hasn't returned yet at all, except that He is spiritually present whenever/wherever two or more are gathered in His name.

  Time for you to abandon that goofy pret stuff. In another thread, you couldn't prove one quark of it, & you don't seem stupid, so why do you continue to believe garbage from other men that neither they nor you can prove ?

  One big prob with your interp-THOSE EVENTS HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED ! I politely asked you (or anyone else) for **PROOF** those events had already occurred, & received nothing but conjecture & guesswork. Not one quark of PROOF.
  There was no "lake of fire" in Jerusalem, nor was hades emptied . That's a tall tale, a fishing story.
  You're still on Square One, proof-wise.

Awww, Rella, don’t smack yourself in the head...you might hurt yourself.   That would not make me happy.  I’m depending on your research to keep me apprised of current events I might otherwise miss.

This reporter has hung up her press card.

But will be here to be that ever present thorn in your side


Posted by: 3 Resurrections  « on: Sat Jul 11, 2020 - 14:52:26 »

No, robycop3, I am not quoting “garbage from other men” as you suppose.  I am directly quoting the apostle Paul himself, who told Governor Felix while on trial in AD 60 that “there is *ABOUT TO BE* A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, both of the just and unjust.”  The news about the imminence of this judgment that was “about to be” caused Felix to tremble (Acts 24:15 and 25).  Apparently Felix could understand what you fail to see, robycop3.

NO. NO. NO. A thousand times NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vs 15 KJV
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

vs 15 nkjv
15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection [e]of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

vs 25
25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

nkjv25
25 Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, “Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you.”

Not even a hint of this judgment or resurection coming to light or about to happen..... here.

What Paul was discussing with Felix ....Paul was deliberately calculating  to inspire terror into Felix or into  any man who fully comprehends the meaning of what was being said.

Not at all unlike the sermons of old that preached hell fire and damnation.

That God is the righteous and the imperishable enemy of all wickedness. Remember, the entire book of Romans is  a discussion of this but  what  we are told of  here is brief of all that Paul said before Felix.

As to the judgment coming... there is nothing that says it is imminent in the entire chapter of Acts 24.. NOR did it need be as
we are to understand in " that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
IOW... be it that day, a few years from then or multuiple millenia.... it is fact that "  there shall  ( future) be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Judgment to come  ( future) .... This is one of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity .

Look at Hebrews 6:2. Briefly stated, it means that Jesus Christ will summon (future)  all the dead and living of the entire world to the judgment of the Great Day, and that every man shall receive the reward of the deeds done in the body, whether they be good or bad.

Our Christian concept of a universal judgment day is essential to all those in faith in this present life.

And it is future..... not having already happened that gives us our hope that we shall not lose out reward if we endure to the end. Mathew 24:13...............

Not sure which translation you guys are using, but the one I’m referring to is the YLT or the Interlinear.  These correctly identify  the imminence factor in the text, by the proper use of the Greek “mello” term.  There truly was “ABOUT TO BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD” from the very near perspective of both Timothy and Felix.

The “Great White Throne” (no racist term implied) is not a one-time-only event.  You can try proving it, but you won’t find it in scripture limited to a one-and-only-one-time occurrence.

And no, Rella, I don’t regard you as a thorn in my side.  On the contrary, a lively exchange between opposing parties is beneficial to all concerned.

For DaveW’s comment, your #2 point of “All Israel shall be saved” from Romans 11:26 means all Israel (all the children of faith like Abraham, circumcised in heart) being RESURRECTED and changed into incorruptible bodies standing in God’s presence as the final stage of their salvation.  This happened in AD 70, and will happen again in the final “harvest” at the close of fallen mankind’s history.

Your #3 point of the I Cor. 13:12 text was already fulfilled once for those AD 70 resurrected saints who became “face to face” with their Creator, knowing even as they had been known by God.  It will be fulfilled again for us also in the final resurrection, when you and I also will be finally “face to face” with our Creator in our incorruptible bodies, finally knowing even as we are known by God.

Your #1 point of the gospel being presented to every people group in the world was documented by Paul several times as having been fulfilled back then in the first century.  These references have been supplied before by others on this forum, unless you need me to repeat them. 

God used not only the Apostles and the church, but also the ministry of the indestructible resurrected saints of Matt. 27:52-53 to assist in this complete evangelistic coverage of the people groups of the world at that time.  Those resurrected saints had no limits to their ability to travel and minister as evangelists.

Since that AD 70 return of Christ, during these current Ages of the world under the New Covenant, God has been using the indwelling Spirit of the saints to again spread the “leaven” of the kingdom throughout the world, before His final return in our future.

How on earth have I been “avoiding” the subject of our bodily resurrection??  It’s a theme I visit constantly - witness my username.  I’ve repeatedly written comments on the scriptures that absolutely prove that no less than THREE resurrection events were planned by God to harvest the bodies of His saints out of the grave over the span of history.  These are just a few of the links where I have done so:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/your-hero-nero/   reply #23 and following

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/preterism-waiting-or-not-waiting-for-the-third-coming/   reply #50

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/is-there-going-to-be-a-thrid-coming-according-to-the-partial-preterist-view/   reply #26 and following

Scripture never says that all the JEWS would become believers.  It says “and so all ISRAEL shall be saved” (or resurrected in the final stage of their salvation inheritance).   But we are also told that “they are not ALL Israel that are OF Israel”.  In other words, not ALL who were “OF” ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL were considered by God to be the Israel which was composed of the children of faith such as faithful Abraham. 

It was the “election” remnant out of ethnic Israel that was “beloved for the fathers’ sakes”.  NOT the rest of unbelieving national Israel, which was proving to be the “enemies” of the gospel in those days when Romans 11:28 was written.   Romans 11:28 put a dividing line between these two categories that existed then within ethnic Israel.

We know for certain that not all of ethnic Israel would become believers, because Paul said in Romans 11:15 that the receiving of those believers coming from ethnic Israel would be “Life *FROM AMONG* the dead”.  That means that some spiritually dead ethnic Israelites would remain behind outside of that believing category.

And Paul never said in I Cor. 13:12 that those in the church while on earth would be perfected in knowledge before death.  It takes a resurrection to clear the obscured vision completely for a child of God.  That clarity of vision becomes a reality when the resurrected saints are perfected completely, body and soul, in a face-to-face existence with their Creator.

And the Matthew 27:52-53 saints did not remain only in Jerusalem where they were first seen after their resurrection.  These “144,000 First-fruits” raised from graves around Jerusalem along with “Christ the First-fruits” also obeyed Christ’s directive to “go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature”. 

That’s why we have the saints in Heb. 13:2 being commanded not to forget to “entertain strangers”, because they might unknowingly have been assisting these “angels” (messengers) on their journey.  John also said that these “strangers” were then publicly commending in the church those who “brought them forward in their journey”, since they were taking nothing from the Gentiles that they were evangelizing (III John 5-8).

This is also why Paul told the Roman believers in Rom. 8:23 that they “HAD the FIRST-FRUITS” among them - which was the very FIRST of the Holy Spirit’s work of redeeming the bodies of the saints out of the grave.  This means that the resurrected Matt. 27 saints by then were branching out into other nations - not just staying inside Jerusalem. These 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 “First-fruits” resurrected saints were not the same as the singular “Fruit of the Spirit”, such as love, joy, peace, etc.  Two different things entirely. 

Scripture never says that all the JEWS would become believers.  It says “and so all ISRAEL shall be saved” (or resurrected in the final stage of their salvation inheritance).   But we are also told that “they are not ALL Israel that are OF Israel”.  In other words, not ALL who were “OF” ETHNIC NATIONAL ISRAEL were considered by God to be the Israel which was composed of the children of faith such as faithful Abraham. 

In Romans 11 it says ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED.  Context.  In the rest of the chapter Paul describes Israel as "enemies of the gospel."  Those are NOT "children of faith."   So it is clear he is talking about ETHNIC Israel, IE the Jews.

We know for certain that not all of ethnic Israel would become believers, because Paul said in Romans 11:15 that the receiving of those believers coming from ethnic Israel would be “Life *FROM AMONG* the dead”.  That means that some spiritually dead ethnic Israelites would remain behind outside of that believing category.

You are adding "among" into the text.  I looked at the Greek.  that is not supported.

The Apostle is talking about the resurrection from the dead.  When ethnic Israel accepts the gospel it will bring on the final resurrections.

FYI:  resurrection of the dead is a PHARISAIC doctrine.