Author Topic: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero  (Read 1793 times)

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Offline Just Asking

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Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« on: Wed Nov 30, 2016 - 19:30:42 »
... not in the reign of Domitian.

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Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« on: Wed Nov 30, 2016 - 19:30:42 »

Offline dpr

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #1 on: Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:37:55 »
Revelation was written in the time of emperor Domitian, around 96 A.D.


Offline Just Asking

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #2 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 08:54:35 »
Late Date:
Victorinus (c. 280)
Eusebius (c. 320)

Early Date:
Muratorian Canon (c. 200)
Tertullian (c. 200)
Clement of Alexandria (c. 200)
Acts of John (c. 175)
Syriac History of John (c. 350)
Tyconius (c. 380)

Ambiguous:
Irenaeus (c. 180)
Origen (c.220)

So why settle for the late date? For what reasons?
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 08:58:25 by Just Asking »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #3 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 09:48:44 »
This article makes many valid points for the late dating of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

Offline Just Asking

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 10:56:08 »
The article largely amounts to
1. Ignoring the ambiguity in Irenaeus which makes it unclear whether John or the apocalyptic vision was seen in Domitian's reign.

2. Taking Eusebius' interpretation of 'the tyrant' as true while ignoring the chronological clues for the account found in Chrysostom and the Acts of John, as well as the internal clues from Clement's passage, which make Eusebius' interpretation virtually impossible.

3. Misrepresenting the significance of 666 by erroneously inferring that the form 'Caesar Nero' is contrived, even though it appears in ancient inscriptions, while failing to note that the spelling of Nero without the yod is anciently attested. Also, since Zahn wrote, medieval Latin commentaries have been published which demonstrate that the number was held as computed in Hebrew. The article also fails to mention the textual variant 616--representing the Latin spelling of Caesar Nero in Hebrew.

These kinds of articles are not supposed to be serious interactions with the evidence. They are supposed to be a quick spoon feeding for those who just want to confirm what they have already decided. Have you read Gentry?

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 10:56:08 »



Offline dpr

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #5 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 13:29:27 »
No ambiguity in Irenaeus here; that article offers solid proof of emperor Domitian as the one existing when John penned Revelation.

Irenaeus

Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Indeed, the Preterist doctrines of men are 'bizzare', and not Biblically accurate, for if Revelation was written to point to Jerusalem's destruction in 70 A.D., and not for the end of this world, then it would mean Christ Jesus would have returned to this earth back in 70 A.D. and built the temple of Zechariah 6, for Jesus Christ is That BRANCH.

There are so many end time prophecies that were never fulfilled in 70 A.D. that it really makes Preterist doctrine look ludicrous, and a thinking of mad men.

Offline Just Asking

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #6 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 14:16:13 »
Denying the ambiguity won't make it go away. Do you even know where the ambiguity is, or why it is considered ambiguous? Have you read Gentry's discussion of it, or are you just reacting? What's preterism got to do with anything? Why bring that up? You have me thinking your insistence on the late date is more to do with scoring points against preterism than with evidence for a late date.
« Last Edit: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 14:21:07 by Just Asking »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #7 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 15:49:22 »
dpr  -  You really need to check out the evidence for Nero being the reigning emperor at the time John drafted Revelation. 

Solid evidence is there in the ancient Syriac Peshitta version's title page for Revelation.  Have you seen this?  I quote: " The revelation which was upon the holy John the Evangelist from God when he was on the island of Patmos where he was thrown by the emperor NERO."  No ambiguity there at all.

Irenaeus does not stipulate in his famous quote as to whether John was seen or the apocalyptic vision was seen in Domitian's reign.  The scribe who translated Irenaeus into Latin inserted his own preference when he interpreted what was seen.  The original Greek that Irenaeus wrote this statement in has no word for what was seen - the referrent has to be assumed.  And every historian quoting Irenaeus since then has made the same assumption, including yourself.   

In addition, since Nero's birth name was "Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus", there have been historians, (Severus, Orosius, etc.) who have mistakenly confused Nero's "Domitius" or "Domitianou" with the later "Titus Flavius Domitianus", son of Vespasian.  The resulting confusion hs been passed down to later generations and has continued to muddy the waters of Revelation's study today.

It is much safer to rely on internal testimony for the dating of this book.  And there is ample internal evidence and cross-referencing with the rest of scripture to show that Revelation was written in late AD 59 to early AD 60.  I have attempted to lay out the evidence for this on this website and others, for those who are willing to devote the time necessary to seriously study this issue.

Just as an aside to your Zechariah 6 reference, the BRANCH in Zech. 6 is speaking of Jesus (or Joshua) the son of Josedec the high priest, who became the crowned high priest in the rebuilt temple of Zerubbabel after the post-exilic return.  This temple prophesied by Ezekiel was already built long ago under Zerubbabel's hands, and was eventually renovated extensively by Herod.  Here are the LXX verses in Jeremiah 23:5-6 that foretell how Josedec, (Jesus / Joshua's father), would also be designated as the BRANCH.  "Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will raise up to David a righteous branch, and a king shall reign and understand, and shall execute judgment and righteousness on the earth.  In his days both Juda shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell securely: and this is his name, which the Lord shall call him, JOSEDEC among the prophets."  Jesus / Joshua shared in his father's name of THE BRANCH, and the post-exilic remnant that returned did finally come to enjoy periods of peace and prosperity under the Medo-Persians, led by Jesus / Joshua's rule as high priest.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #8 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 16:20:39 »
Solid evidence is there in the ancient Syriac Peshitta version's title page for Revelation.  Have you seen this?  I quote: " The revelation which was upon the holy John the Evangelist from God when he was on the island of Patmos where he was thrown by the emperor NERO."

Could you provide a source on this & the dating please. It is my understanding the early Syriac texts did not include the Revelation of Jesus Christ among other books as well.

Offline Just Asking

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #9 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 16:28:13 »


In addition, since Nero's birth name was "Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus", there have been historians, (Severus, Orosius, etc.) who have mistakenly confused Nero's "Domitius" or "Domitianou" with the later "Titus Flavius Domitianus", son of Vespasian.  The resulting confusion hs been passed down to later generations and has continued to muddy the waters of Revelation's study today.
This claim was made by Robert Young (who was not a trained scholar) and has been repeated from time to time by non-scholarly books. It doesn't have a shred of evidence for it. Emperors didn't use their birth names but their imperial names, and besides, Nero had an adopted name. No-one would have referred to him as Domitius. Josephus uses the same expression as Irenaeus and was undoubtedly referring to Domitian. Irenaeus was talking about when John was seen by the elders, and it was at the end of Domitian's reign.

Offline Just Asking

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #10 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 16:35:09 »
Solid evidence is there in the ancient Syriac Peshitta version's title page for Revelation.  Have you seen this?  I quote: " The revelation which was upon the holy John the Evangelist from God when he was on the island of Patmos where he was thrown by the emperor NERO."

Could you provide a source on this & the dating please. It is my understanding the early Syriac texts did not include the Revelation of Jesus Christ among other books as well.

The information can be found in Koester, Revelation: A New Translation, 72. He states that two Syriac versions of Revelation dating from as early as the fourth century make John to have been banished by Nero. The fourth-century Syriac History of John does the same.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #11 on: Sun Feb 12, 2017 - 22:47:20 »

Offline dpr

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #12 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 12:15:31 »
dpr  -  You really need to check out the evidence for Nero being the reigning emperor at the time John drafted Revelation. 

Solid evidence is there in the ancient Syriac Peshitta version's title page for Revelation.  Have you seen this?  I quote: " The revelation which was upon the holy John the Evangelist from God when he was on the island of Patmos where he was thrown by the emperor NERO."  No ambiguity there at all.

Irenaeus does not stipulate in his famous quote as to whether John was seen or the apocalyptic vision was seen in Domitian's reign.  The scribe who translated Irenaeus into Latin inserted his own preference when he interpreted what was seen.  The original Greek that Irenaeus wrote this statement in has no word for what was seen - the referrent has to be assumed.  And every historian quoting Irenaeus since then has made the same assumption, including yourself.   

In addition, since Nero's birth name was "Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus", there have been historians, (Severus, Orosius, etc.) who have mistakenly confused Nero's "Domitius" or "Domitianou" with the later "Titus Flavius Domitianus", son of Vespasian.  The resulting confusion hs been passed down to later generations and has continued to muddy the waters of Revelation's study today.

It is much safer to rely on internal testimony for the dating of this book.  And there is ample internal evidence and cross-referencing with the rest of scripture to show that Revelation was written in late AD 59 to early AD 60.  I have attempted to lay out the evidence for this on this website and others, for those who are willing to devote the time necessary to seriously study this issue.

Just as an aside to your Zechariah 6 reference, the BRANCH in Zech. 6 is speaking of Jesus (or Joshua) the son of Josedec the high priest, who became the crowned high priest in the rebuilt temple of Zerubbabel after the post-exilic return.  This temple prophesied by Ezekiel was already built long ago under Zerubbabel's hands, and was eventually renovated extensively by Herod.  Here are the LXX verses in Jeremiah 23:5-6 that foretell how Josedec, (Jesus / Joshua's father), would also be designated as the BRANCH.  "Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will raise up to David a righteous branch, and a king shall reign and understand, and shall execute judgment and righteousness on the earth.  In his days both Juda shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell securely: and this is his name, which the Lord shall call him, JOSEDEC among the prophets."  Jesus / Joshua shared in his father's name of THE BRANCH, and the post-exilic remnant that returned did finally come to enjoy periods of peace and prosperity under the Medo-Persians, led by Jesus / Joshua's rule as high priest.

Only Jesus Christ is The BRANCH, as shown in Isaiah also (Isa.11; Jer.23). There has been NO king of Israel from the house of David upon a throne in Jerusalem since king Zedekiah whom Nebuchadnezzar killed in Babylon.

This has NEVER happened to this day:

Jer 23:5-8
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.
KJV


That Scripture is about the future event of Christ's coming and gathering of both the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) back together in the holy lands. It's obvious that not all of Israel has been gathered back to the holy lands yet, even as a 1st grader can easily see today.

Well, you just make up too many things for me to care about continuing this conversation with the likes of you.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #13 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 13:06:36 »
That Scripture is about the future event of Christ's coming and gathering of both the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) back together in the holy lands..


Dear brother dpr, Have you considered these two verses that Jesus declared?

Jesus said: "31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John 12


All, not just the 'gentiles'. All, that includes the lost tribes who are lost among the gentiles. The gathering begins at the Cross.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 13:10:53 by TonkaTim »

Offline dpr

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #14 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 13:48:28 »
That Scripture is about the future event of Christ's coming and gathering of both the house of Israel (ten lost tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) back together in the holy lands..


Dear brother dpr, Have you considered these two verses that Jesus declared?

Jesus said: "31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John 12


All, not just the 'gentiles'. All, that includes the lost tribes who are lost among the gentiles. The gathering begins at the Cross.

There's other verses too that could suggest that, yet at the same time they do not omit a future physical return of our Lord Jesus and gathering to Him.

In John 14 is the rest of what Jesus was pointing in John 12 about that prince...

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
KJV


That is Satan our Lord Jesus was speaking of. He is coming... to earth where we are, and that will be the final Antichrist at the end. That's why Jesus just warned us right there with, "for the prince of this world cometh". That casting out is revealed literally in the Revelation 12:7 forward verses.


Offline Just Asking

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #15 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 15:23:21 »
Can you guys please respect the topic of the thread--it isn't preterism or the second coming.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #16 on: Thu Dec 19, 2019 - 14:11:58 »
  Nero was a Christian-KILLER, not an exiler. He executed Peter & Paul. He crucified & burned many more, & used others for lion bait. About the only ones he encountered without killing (quickly, at least) were some Christian women he put into the state bawdy houses.

  OTOH, Domitian exiled quite a few people, hoping to "rehabilitate" them by exiling them for awhile. I don't believe 8 or 9 early "church fathers"  mistook someone else for Domitian. And it's known that Nerva released virtually all exiles on Patmos, including John, and a Christian woman whom I believed was named Flavia.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #17 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 14:40:53 »
  Nero was a Christian-KILLER, not an exiler. He executed Peter & Paul. He crucified & burned many more, & used others for lion bait. About the only ones he encountered without killing (quickly, at least) were some Christian women he put into the state bawdy houses.

  OTOH, Domitian exiled quite a few people, hoping to "rehabilitate" them by exiling them for awhile. I don't believe 8 or 9 early "church fathers"  mistook someone else for Domitian. And it's known that Nerva released virtually all exiles on Patmos, including John, and a Christian woman whom I believed was named Flavia.

Prove to us that a Roman ruler even exiled John to Patmos.
Rev.1:
9 I, John, [f]both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, [g]“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches [h]which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

If you or I were missionaries we could claim we were in Asia or some place else -"for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John doesn't say anything about being exiled.  So, perhaps he was on a mission trip!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #18 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 17:47:15 »
  Patmos was then a bleak place, & was used by several Caesars to exile "minor" offenders to, rather than kill pr imprison them. It's very doubtful John went there on his own. Domitian likely exiled him there for preaching against the Roman "gods". He was brought back to the mainland by Nerva, who succeeded Domitian.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #19 on: Fri Apr 17, 2020 - 18:55:03 »

 Still, John in Revelation does not say he was exiled by any ruler. He just says he was on Patmos.


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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #20 on: Sat Apr 18, 2020 - 08:43:19 »
Still, John in Revelation does not say he was exiled by any ruler. He just says he was on Patmos.

 It's pretty obvious he was there BECAUSE he had preached the Gospel, not that he was there TO preach the Gospel. And the latest research shows that Domitian was not the great persecutor of Christians that Nero was, and that John was exiled to Patmos at the urging of the Orthodox Jews, when Domitian refused their request to kill him. Domitian, not wanting another costly Jewish revolt, had exiled other Christians to Pontia(now called Ponza) in the Tyrrhennian Sea, at the jews' request. However, they didn't want John to be sent among them, lest he lead a revolt against the Jewish religious leadership. (So the Jews believed.) So, he sent John to Patmos.

  It's not known if it was Domitian or his successor Nerva that recalled John from Patmos, but he was almost certainly exiled there for several years. It was NOT Nero who exiled John, as Nero would've simply killed him.
.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #21 on: Sat Apr 25, 2020 - 13:59:01 »
You are correct. None of the internal Biblical evidence makes sense in Revelation when prophesied for AD95 or whatever!  Nothing. Nothing. Thank you  Lord for Your wisdom bestowed!


Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #22 on: Sat May 02, 2020 - 13:43:51 »
You are correct. None of the internal Biblical evidence makes sense in Revelation when prophesied for AD95 or whatever!  Nothing. Nothing. Thank you  Lord for Your wisdom bestowed!

 Makes PLENTY of sense when one knows those events haven't happened yet.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #23 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 15:38:10 »
Makes PLENTY of sense when one knows those events haven't happened yet.
Only you don't know when those events didn't take place!

Someone needs to change or get a new hobby!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #24 on: Tue May 05, 2020 - 16:58:10 »
Only you don't know when those events didn't take place!

Not at all, yet!

Quote
Someone needs to change or get a new hobby!

No, someone needs to learn some history & reality, & quit believing the garbage of quack authors.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #25 on: Thu May 07, 2020 - 20:08:44 »
 Garbage in, garbage out. No one is listening to you because you never prove/compare anything Biblically!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #26 on: Sat May 09, 2020 - 09:29:12 »
Garbage in, garbage out. No one is listening to you because you never prove/compare anything Biblically!

 Yes, preterism is GIGO, devoid of fact, full of imagination & guesswork.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #27 on: Sat May 09, 2020 - 17:25:13 »
Yes, preterism is GIGO, devoid of fact, full of imagination & guesswork.
Oh, but you can never beat me and rezar., Hahahaha!
 

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #28 on: Sun May 10, 2020 - 08:45:15 »
Oh, but you can never beat me and rezar., Hahahaha!

 You & your pret myth beat themselves - no historical evidence !

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #29 on: Mon May 11, 2020 - 14:51:22 »
You & your pret myth beat themselves - no historical evidence !
The internal Biblical evidence in Revelation makes NO SENSE after AD95. Know that history!


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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #30 on: Tue May 12, 2020 - 05:10:14 »
  Makes PLENTY if you actually KNOW history.

Offline lea

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #31 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 12:12:11 »
  Makes PLENTY if you actually KNOW history.
In my personal experience, I have met many people who consider themselves Bible believing, yet they do not believe that the entire Bible actually points to spiritual truth. They generally believe that there is spiritual truth in it, but there is other information that is valuable as historical information or for moral teaching. Therefore, they believe that part of the Bible points to Christ and spiritual truth.  But, other parts do not. It is interesting, however, when deeper spiritual truth is pointed out to these people they generally cannot argue with the doctrinal conclusions or the Scriptures used. They just do not ‘feel comfortable’ with that interpretation of the Bible. This limit they place on God’s Word is actually a significant barrier to understanding God. It limits God’s truth and can easily lead to foolish questions since they are not willing to search the Scriptures and find Christ. We find commands in the Scriptures to avoid foolish questions (Titus 3:9, 1 Tim 1:4, 2 Tim 2:23).

 A foolish question arises when one is asking questions not related to what the spiritual focus of a passage implies. Because the wisdom of God comes by knowing the spiritual meaning of a passage (1 Cor 2:6-16), we ask a foolish question when we try to speculate on the literal passage. For example, many foolish debates have arisen concerning the creation account where there was light on the first day (Gen 1:3), yet the sun was not created until the fourth day (Gen 1:14-15). Many have spend needless hours of speculation concerning what was this physical light that was there before the sun was created. They may drift off into all types of speculations that really are not important at all. Although, we must believe that the light on the first day and the sun on the fourth day is absolutely historically true, we only glean spiritual value when we compare Scripture with Scripture. We find in 2 Cor 4:6, that God shined forth on the first day as a picture of the Gospel. In the darkness and chaos of a creation that God knew would be fallen, He shined forth with the Gospel. Christ was slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). In this simple example, we can see that by comparing Scripture with Scripture, we can glean wonderful truths that point to the Gospel, where if we focus on the historical story, we simply end up with foolish questions[/b].

~rockofoffenseministries.


Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #32 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 14:48:38 »
  God wants His word to be understood. Thus, He gave prophecy with literal fulfillment. And we should easily see that all His prophecy will be literally fulfilled.

  People try to "spiritualize" prophecy so they can make it meet THEIR agendas. Preterists do it to try to fill in the gaps of prophecy yet to be fulfilled, trying to get people to think it's already been fulfilled.

 Personally, I dismiss all that stuff as poppycock.

Offline dpr

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #33 on: Sat May 16, 2020 - 17:00:16 »

Dear brother dpr, Have you considered these two verses that Jesus declared?

Jesus said: "31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." John 12


All, not just the 'gentiles'. All, that includes the lost tribes who are lost among the gentiles. The gathering begins at the Cross.

Old post, but I feel I still have the right to reply.

John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV


No, the gathering which God spoke of through His OT prophets, will be a LITERAL gathering back to the lands of their fathers; that is written more than once, and the last 9 chapters of Ezekiel are further proof of that future return.

Zechariah 14 is also... proof of Christ's gathering His Church and returning to Jerusalem, on earth, in the future at His LITERAL return, bringing His Church with Him there, to reign over all nations.

So to believe our Lord Jesus fulfilled all that upon His cross at His 1st coming is to scrap much Bible prophecy only meant for the future.

As for the John 12:31 verse, even that... is about our near future when the Archangel Michael and Satan do battle in Heaven at the end of this world, and the devil and his angels are cast down to this earth to start the time of trouble on earth. Many think that the devil was cast out of this world when Jesus defeated the devil at the crucifixion, but Peter shows different per 1 Peter 5:8.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Revelation was written in the reign of Nero
« Reply #34 on: Sun May 17, 2020 - 12:49:00 »
  The prevalence of sin shows Satan is alive & well. He has NOT yet been exiled.

  I hope everyone here notices that prets CANNOT present any historical evidence supporting their assertions. The prophesied events aren't exactly tiny, & there'd be PLENTY of physical evidence for their occurrence, HAD THEY ALREADY OCCURRED !

  But they simply HAVE NOT yet occurred ! Prets are left out in the cold when it comes to PROVING their stuff !

 

     
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