Author Topic: This Generation~Matthew 24:34 (Read 5184 times)

Red Baker · « **on:** Sun Aug 31, 2014 - 07:46:02 »

Matthew 24:34

. "Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

I would like to present a debate to all perterist on the phrase This generation, as it is defined for us from the scriptures. The corner stone of their eschatology rest entirely upon their understanding of this generation.

I will debate under these assumptions:

. God is.

. God gave the scriptures.

. Scriptures alone are absolute truth on all matters of doctrine.

. Man's opinions are worthless in matter of revelation/truth.

I will start first.

Tyler · « **Reply #1 on:** Fri Sep 19, 2014 - 07:43:40 »

Red---I see you have no one who will debate the subject with you. You will have to be careful in debating this subject or be "locked out."

Jesus spoke of "this generation" many times. What is your understanding of "generation" as it appears in Luke 7:31? Would you correlate this with Matthew 23:33,36; 24:34 and Acts 2:40?

Red Baker · « **Reply #2 on:** Fri Sep 19, 2014 - 08:43:06 »

Quote from: Tyler on Fri Sep 19, 2014 - 07:43:40

Red---I see you have no one who will debate the subject with you. You will have to be careful in debating this subject or be "locked out."

Jesus spoke of "this generation" many times. What is your understanding of "generation" as it appears in Luke 7:31? Would you correlate this with Matthew 23:33,36; 24:34 and Acts 2:40?

Greetings Tyler,

When John the Baptist, and Jesus used the phrase "this generation" they used it in this sense: "A type of people, or a family of people"; they never used it as far as a period of time when people are born and live upon the earth together at the same time, or near the same time. That is the common use that most people used the word generation; but God's word is its own dictionary, and the scriptures will define it own use of words, not Webster's dictionary.

In Luke 7:31 which follows verse thirty, should not give us any problem, which reads:

Luke 7:30

. "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."

It was the wicked generations of vipers who rejected John the Baptist's preaching and Jesus' word, who were of their father, the old serpent.

I must attend a meeting, afterwards, I will return with more time and I will address Matthew 23, then 24, and Acts 2.

Tyler · « **Reply #3 on:** Fri Sep 19, 2014 - 18:55:35 »

Greetings Tyler,

When John the Baptist, and Jesus used the phrase "this generation" they used it in this sense: "A type of people, or a family of people"; they never used it as far as a period of time when people are born and live upon the earth together at the same time, or near the same time. That is the common use that most people used the word generation; but God's word is its own dictionary, and the scriptures will define it own use of words, not Webster's dictionary.

Agree with you here Red...:)

In Luke 7:31 which follows verse thirty, should not give us any problem, which reads:

Luke 7:30

. "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."

It was the wicked generations of vipers who rejected John the Baptist's preaching and Jesus' word, who were of their father, the old serpent.

Agree....:)

I must attend a meeting, afterwards, I will return with more time and I will address Matthew 23, then 24, and Acts 2.

OK---agree...Have you noted in Matthew 3:11 that John said that the Pharisees and Sadducees were the first to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire." What is your understanding of this?
Go ahead with Matthew 24 and Acts 3 first.

Red Baker · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 05:25:19 »

Quote from: Tyler on Fri Sep 19, 2014 - 18:55:35

Have you noted in Matthew 3:11 that John said that the Pharisees and Sadducees were the first to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire." What is your understanding of this?

Good morning brother,

Tyler, I believe you need to take a closer look at Matthew 3:7-12 concerning John's words to these "generation of vipers". John would not baptized anyone that he thought was not worthy to be baptized~and since he knew their proud spirit and why they came to his baptisms, he refused to give in to these generation of vipers.

To keep this short, we need to consider John's words carefully starting at verse 10 down to verse 13, and we should be able to understand what John meant by being baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire. This baptism you do not want to have any part of, trust me!

Brother you missed the mark when you said that the Pharisees and Sadducees where the first to be baptized with the Holy Ghost and fire. The truth is that no one has yet been baptized in that manner as of yet. This baptism is a baptism of JUDGEMENT in the lake of fire according to Revelation 20:14. My good friend, listen carefully to John the Baptist:

Matthew 3:11-13

. "And now also the axe is laid unto the roots of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the FIRE."

. I indeed baptized you with water unto repentance: BUT he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptized YOU (generation of vipers) with the Holy Ghost and fire: (WHEN will this take place?)

. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; (when will take take place?) BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE." Matthew 13:37-42

Brother if we are hearing what John is saying, then this has not yet happen, but will in that day when the chaff is separated from the true wheat.

The Pentecostals believe this happened on Pentecost. The Preterist believe this happened in 70 A.D. yet both are wrong. The scriptures are their own interpreter my brother.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 05:25:19 »

Tyler · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 08:59:09 »

Matthew 3:11-13

. "And now also the axe is laid unto the roots of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the FIRE."

. I indeed baptized you with water unto repentance: BUT he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptized YOU (generation of vipers) with the Holy Ghost and fire: (WHEN will this take place?)

. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; (when will take take place?) BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE." Matthew 13:37-42

Brother if we are hearing what John is saying, then this has not yet happen, but will in that day the the chaff is separated from the true wheat.

The Pentecostals believe this happened on Pentecost. The Preterist believe this happened in 70 A.D. yet both are wrong. The scriptures are their own interpreter my brother."

You believe this baptism is yet to come? Yet John said "NOW the axe is laid at the root of the tree."
To me, this means "national Israel" is ready to fall.

Let's take a look at Jesus repeating John's words in Matthew 23:33-39. "Verily I say unto YOU
(note that He is speaking to the scribes and Pharisees, v.15).Jesus said ALL THESE THINGS SHALL COME UPON THIS GENERATION.
He says: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not!
Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

Brother, that is condemnation by God all mighty--- no matter how you chose to slice it.
God was through with this outfit and we see the "axe" wheeled in 68 AD by the Romans.
Look again at Jesus' parable in Matthew 21:43-45. "Therefore I say unto YOU. The kingdom of God shall be TAKEN from YOU, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Note verse 45 after reading v.44---"And when the chief priests and Pharisees had HEARD his parable they perceived that he SPOKE OF THEM."
He was--and many would live to see this parable fulfilled by the Roman boot "standing in the "holy place (Ma. 24:15). Emphasis mine----:)

The "baptism of fire" can be seen through the eyes of Josephus ("Jewish Wars") one of the few Jewish historians who lived to write about this destruction of Temple centered, national Israel.

I ask you brother----Is the Temple still standing in Jerusalem? Levitical priesthood? Alter? Animal sacrifice? Did Jesus' words come true---you know they did.

This is why Peter would say to those "devout Jews" at Pentecost, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation" (Acts 2:40). By this, Peter through the words of the Spirit (Matthew 10:20) was saying (to these new Christians) "get out of Dodge" the "axe" is in His hand and the Romans are going to be kicking ass and destroying this Temple of stone and gold inlaid---

"Behold, YOUR house is left unto YOU desolate." I would remind you brother---Jesus had often referred to the Temple in Jerusalem as "God's house," but now it was "THERI HOUSE" and it ain't there no more.
"I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." His church still stands a beacon in a dark and shattered world-----while national Israel is no more......Prophecy fulfilled.

Red Baker · « **Reply #6 on:** Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 10:05:06 »

Tyler my friend, thank you for responding back, now give me time later (most likely in the morning, the Lord willing) to answer back. RB

AVZ · « **Reply #7 on:** Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 10:13:05 »

Quote

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not! Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

The meaning of "your house" can have a far wider meaning than only "the temple".
It appears as is Jesus speaks to Jerusalem, or the inhabitants of Jerusalem, but it was not Jerusalem or her inhabitants that killed prophets only.
In that sense Jesus addresses all the Jews and not only those who are in or around Jerusalem.

The term "your house" could as well mean the whole city of Jerusalem, or even the whole country of Israel.
And all these events did happen.
Not only was the temple destroyed, so was the city Jerusalem and the nation of Israel.

Revelation promises that God will restore His people.
Jerusalem has been restored, and so is the nation of Israel.
What has yet to be rebuild if the temple, which Revelation too says will happen in the last of days.

With regard to the "you" in many prophesies, given by the OT prophets, this not always meant to be addressed to the actual group of people that heard the prophesy.
Take for example Isaiah 29:3 "I will lay siege to you on all sides;I will besiege you with troops;I will raise siege works against you."
The "you" in this prophesy was a future generation. Prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah are filled with prophesies for "you"...future generations.

So the people that heard the prophets addressing them with "you", were not actually the people that would experience the prophesy.
And it is well possible that the generation that heard Jesus saying "this generation" was not the actual generation the prophesy was spoken out against.

With regards to "this generation" being the actual generation over which the destruction of Jerusalem in pronounced, I do not see a problem with that.
I do however fail to see that somehow this means that all the prophesies of Revelation are therefor fulfilled within that generation.
The events described in Revelation simply do not measure up with the actual events that took place around AD 70.

The cornerstone of Preterism is not based on "this generation", they make it sound so as to achieve some form of legality in their claim.
The cornerstone of Preterism is the liberty do declare, at their will and desire, the book of Revelation literal and figurative wherever it fits their theory.
They use "this generation" as a free pass to do so.

To a Preterist, the events in the book Revelation MUST fit in "this generation", because they made a link between the two that does not exist. And hence whenever you bring up a literal event described in Revelation, the Preterist will declare it figurative so it no longer requires physical proof of occurrence.

notreligus · « **Reply #8 on:** Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 13:11:34 »

Quote from: AVZ on Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 10:13:05

Quote
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not! Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

The meaning of "your house" can have a far wider meaning than only "the temple".
It appears as is Jesus speaks to Jerusalem, or the inhabitants of Jerusalem, but it was not Jerusalem or her inhabitants that killed prophets only.
In that sense Jesus addresses all the Jews and not only those who are in or around Jerusalem.

The term "your house" could as well mean the whole city of Jerusalem, or even the whole country of Israel.
And all these events did happen.
Not only was the temple destroyed, so was the city Jerusalem and the nation of Israel.

Revelation promises that God will restore His people.
Jerusalem has been restored, and so is the nation of Israel.
What has yet to be rebuild if the temple, which Revelation too says will happen in the last of days.

With regard to the "you" in many prophesies, given by the OT prophets, this not always meant to be addressed to the actual group of people that heard the prophesy.
Take for example Isaiah 29:3 "I will lay siege to you on all sides;I will besiege you with troops;I will raise siege works against you."
The "you" in this prophesy was a future generation. Prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah are filled with prophesies for "you"...future generations.

So the people that heard the prophets addressing them with "you", were not actually the people that would experience the prophesy.
And it is well possible that the generation that heard Jesus saying "this generation" was not the actual generation the prophesy was spoken out against.

With regards to "this generation" being the actual generation over which the destruction of Jerusalem in pronounced, I do not see a problem with that.
I do however fail to see that somehow this means that all the prophesies of Revelation are therefor fulfilled within that generation.
The events described in Revelation simply do not measure up with the actual events that took place around AD 70.

The cornerstone of Preterism is not based on "this generation", they make it sound so as to achieve some form of legality in their claim.
The cornerstone of Preterism is the liberty do declare, at their will and desire, the book of Revelation literal and figurative wherever it fits their theory.
They use "this generation" as a free pass to do so.

To a Preterist, the events in the book Revelation MUST fit in "this generation", because they made a link between the two that does not exist. And hence whenever you bring up a literal event described in Revelation, the Preterist will declare it figurative so it no longer requires physical proof of occurrence.

I don't mean to take this off onto a rabbit trail, but Preterists are post-millennial, which means that they believe that the church is now to accomplish what Christ will accomplish during the millennial kingdom, as dispensationals/dual covenant believers claim. Both sides are so bent on showing the other to be wrong, but both are wrong. Christ will return, have a final defeat over Satan and enemies of the Gospel, and will set up a permanent physical kingdom, not a temporary kingdom whether it be one thousand years in length or ten thousand years in length.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope.
John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

Christ told the Jews that they had condemned themselves. They rejected what Moses had said about Him as they denied the fulfillment of the Scriptures, just as they do now, including the Messianics.

Tyler · « **Reply #9 on:** Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 22:58:57 »

AVZ: "Revelation promises that God will restore His people.
Jerusalem has been restored, and so is the nation of Israel.
What has yet to be rebuild if the temple, which Revelation too says will happen in the last of days.

Thanks for joining Dave.

No AVZ-- the now debunked "national of Israel" is not the "state of Israel" formed by the old League of Nations in 1948. Which, I might add, has been the cause of my countries problem in the Middle East. Due to the partition of Palestine by Britain, France and the USA we have paid a price in blood, and unknown billions of American tax dollars.
This of course was due to the British Foreign Secretary, Arthur James Belfour. Known as the Balfour Declaration of 1917. You may want to do a research by "Google."

Zionism is a far cry from Judaism.
So you want to "rebuild the Temple" that Jesus said would be "desolate"? This means the Levitical priesthood with limited tenure of office; alter, sacrifices, the "middle wall of partition" that separates Jew and Gentile must be re-instated.

You do not believe that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross of Calvary cleansed man of his sins?
You want to restore the Mosaic system that Jesus abrogated on His cross and have another shot at obeying this Law? You do understand by doing so the gentiles would be excluded from covenant relationship with God; and Red Baker and I would be yet in our sins?

I am not a Preterminist, but I can understand that I cannot follow the Mosaic law. And without a Temple neither can a wannabe Jew. The promise of Israel's restoration was dependent upon their keeping the Law of Moses, which as Paul reports-- "ABROHATED." ( Colossians 2:14).
This being true---the "Jew" cannot be restored as a nation.
"Verily I say unto YOU, This generation shall not pass away till ALL these things be fulfilled."
This would include the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple or "House" as Jesus called it!

AVZ · « **Reply #10 on:** Sun Sep 21, 2014 - 00:56:44 »

Tyler,

All though the Bible you read the term "the house of Israel", never is this meant to mean "the temple of Israel".
"House" can simply have meanings like, nation or tribe or lineage (House of David), or temple (House of God).
When Jesus said "Your house will be left desolate", it can have all these meanings.

I did not say that the restoration of the temple would have anything to do with Zionism or Judaism or even Christianity.
I simply stated the fact that Revelation tells us that the temple would be rebuild in the last of days.
That has yet to happen.

God will restore His people. The apostles prophesied this and so does Revelation.
What is meant with this is that God will call Israel into acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior.
The restoration of Israel as a nation is part of that promise. What we see today in Zionism is a step towards Israel coming to Christ.

All the troubles surrounding Zionism are predicted in Revelation.
Nations will rise against the nation of Israel, until the final battle will take place in...Israel.

raggthyme13 · « **Reply #11 on:** Sun Sep 21, 2014 - 02:12:11 »

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Sep 21, 2014 - 00:56:44

...Revelation tells us that the temple would be rebuild in the last of days.

God will restore His people. The apostles prophesied this and so does Revelation.

What verses are you referring to?

AVZ · « **Reply #12 on:** Sun Sep 21, 2014 - 03:10:05 »

Luke 21:24, Romans 11:26, Hebrews 10:16, Revelation 14:1, Revelation 7:4-8, Revelation 11:13 , Revelation 9:4...and of course a hole bunch of prophets in the OT.

Red Baker · « **Reply #13 on:** Sun Sep 21, 2014 - 06:54:52 »

Quote from: Tyler on Sat Sep 20, 2014 - 08:59:09

You believe this baptism is yet to come? Yet John said "NOW the axe is laid at the root of the tree." To me, this means "national Israel" is ready to fall.

You are not alone in believing that it has reference to only national Israel. There are righteous people on both sides of this issue, I will freely admit.

Brother, I do firmly believe that John 's words are meant for us to applied them the day that God has appointed for judgement for all, both men and evil spirit/angels. I see no reason to penknife this warning from John and apply it to only a small section of mankind, in light of Matthew 13:12, which is a perfect fit with Matthew 13:37-42, Jesus' same teaching as John in Matthew 3~no one can deny this, it is too plain to refute, and only a person trying to protect his own doctrine would make a attempt to do so. I ask all honest men and women to read both accounts and ask themselves: "Are both John and Jesus speaking of the same event?" To me, it is too clear, to say they are not one and the same, but are indeed one and the same.

Quote

Let's take a look at Jesus repeating John's words in Matthew 23:33-39. "Verily I say unto YOU (note that He is speaking to the scribes and Pharisees, v.15).Jesus said ALL THESE THINGS SHALL COME UPON THIS GENERATION. He says: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not! Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

I am not so sure that I will not need to break this post into two, so I will not weary my readers by being too long.

Quote

Jesus said ALL THESE THINGS SHALL COME UPON THIS GENERATION.

Thank you for this scripture~it means that we can stay on course that this thread is dealing with.

In Matthew 23 our Lord Jesus is speaking to the multitude and his disciples~verse one.....Most all of his warnings and condemnations are directed to the scribes and Pharisees, whom he called fools, blind, hypocrites several times over, and to sum their character up, he said that they were serpents, and that only that, but from a generation of vipers.

They just did not come on the scene when Jesus was born, but had been here since the beginning of time. Listen carefully to Matthew 23:35

"That upon you (the generation of vipers) may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom YE SLEW between the temple and alter."

WHO has slew all the righteous men upon the earth since the beginning? The generation of vipers starting with Cain, who was of that wicked one and slew his righteous brother, because his deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.

Matthew 23:36

. "Verily I say unto you, all these things shall come upon this generation."

What generation? The generation of vipers, starting with Cain, and with all who do the evil works mentioned in Matthew 23:2-36. To interpret "this generation" to mean the present people during the time these words were spoken, does not fit with the context in which they were spoken, neither would Jesus words be true of all men of that present generation of people living. As a matter of truth, that generation of people had the most godly group of people living during that time than in any other time men have been upon the earth! Consider some of the great people of faith living during that time. Jesus, the apostles, and many thousands more, just to mention some.

Quote

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU have killed the prophets, and stoned them that killed them which were sent to YOU, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gatherers her children under her wings, and YOU would not! Behold YOUR house is left unto you desolate!

Tyler, the main reason why God destroyed Jerusalem, and its temple was because it had served it purposes, and he was now finished with both. They served their intended eternal purposes of God. There is a lot that could be said concerning this point, but to keep it short, I will only say this for now: Read Romans 11:30-36 God chose Abraham and his natural seed to shallow forth his spiritual seed. He used their name, people, worship, temple as a shallow of His hidden eternal purposes which he purposed to do according to his own will through his Son, and his true seed, both Jews and Gentiles. It is true that not all of Israel are of Israel, but only the children of promise, and so, once he was finished with that nation, then he left them to themselves, just as he had done with the Gentiles of old. Very soon, he will be finished with the Gentiles, and they like Israel of old will apostate, and be destroy, just as Israel were. Then will Romans 11:30-36 be fulfilled and all will see that except God purposely shows grace, then no one would come and believe~between Israel of old and the Gentiles now following Israel's steps, God will prove and conclude that ALL Jews/Gentiles are in unbelief apart from his mercy, and would remain so apart from his mercy.

Tyler · « **Reply #14 on:** Sun Sep 21, 2014 - 07:50:10 »

AVZ: "God will restore His people. The apostles prophesied this and so does Revelation.
What is meant with this is that God will call Israel into acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior.
The restoration of Israel as a nation is part of that promise. What we see today in Zionism is a step towards Israel coming to Christ."

Really? My New Testament reveals that God "calls" all men through the preaching of the Gospel--Zionism is a product of the Jewish mind, a full understanding of it requires consideration of the ancient history of the Jews. Martin Buber, Professor of Hebrew University in 1946 said before the Anglo American Committee: "Judaism did not simply create another national movement of the European type, but a unique one, a Zionism."

"Zionism" was coined in the 19th century as a result of persecution, and was intended to convey the desire of many alleged Jews to re-establish Palestine as the old state of Israel; and we have been paying the price for that blunder ever since!

What we see in the "state" of Israel now, is a political movement. They have no desire to return to the ethical and moral teachings practiced by the Jews under the Mosaic Law. If God is going to "restore" his people (alleged Jew) as you say--this means "grace" bows to race, "faith" to flesh.

Paul has written that "faith comes by hearing" (Romans 10:17) yet you predict a miraculous process in the mind of the alleged Jew as God "justifying" a people who do not believe!."
You are aware that if Christ had been acceptable to the Jew, they would not have brought about his death? The New Testament is clear that in His death He shed His blood, which alone cleanses from sin., breaking down the "middle wall." The average alleged Jew, Muslim, and woodpecker in Sandgap, Kentucky looks at the Christian as a product of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn and Elmer Gantry wearing a silk suit and a Rolex watch.

Fact: Those in the state of Israel must except Jesus as the Son of God (Messiah) by FAITH.
Not a miraculous infusion of their mind, turning them around like robots. in a "Return." (Sounds like Calvinism 101....:)

I see no difference in the alleged Jew, the Muslim with his Qur'an in his hand or the tattooed red neck in Pinegap, Kentucky. Neither believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the "PROMISED SEED "of Genesis 22:16-20. Therefore, has no intention of repenting; and being baptized into Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. You can pray for these souls till your socks fall off--but until they have been "taught," we will find these non believers in the "goat" corral as prophesied in Matthew 25:41-46.

I told you Red-----this would turn into an "eschatological donnybrook."

AVZ · « **Reply #15 on:** Mon Sep 22, 2014 - 06:27:41 »

Quote

AVZ: "God will restore His people. The apostles prophesied this and so does Revelation.
What is meant with this is that God will call Israel into acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior.
The restoration of Israel as a nation is part of that promise. What we see today in Zionism is a step towards Israel coming to Christ."

Really? My New Testament reveals that God "calls" all men through the preaching of the Gospel--Zionism is a product of the Jewish mind, a full understanding of it requires consideration of the ancient history of the Jews. Martin Buber, Professor of Hebrew University in 1946 said before the Anglo American Committee: "Judaism did not simply create another national movement of the European type, but a unique one, a Zionism."

"Zionism" was coined in the 19th century as a result of persecution, and was intended to convey the desire of many alleged Jews to re-establish Palestine as the old state of Israel; and we have been paying the price for that blunder ever since!

What we see in the "state" of Israel now, is a political movement. They have no desire to return to the ethical and moral teachings practiced by the Jews under the Mosaic Law. If God is going to "restore" his people (alleged Jew) as you say--this means "grace" bows to race, "faith" to flesh.

Paul has written that "faith comes by hearing" (Romans 10:17) yet you predict a miraculous process in the mind of the alleged Jew as God "justifying" a people who do not believe!."
You are aware that if Christ had been acceptable to the Jew, they would not have brought about his death? The New Testament is clear that in His death He shed His blood, which alone cleanses from sin., breaking down the "middle wall." The average alleged Jew, Muslim, and woodpecker in Sandgap, Kentucky looks at the Christian as a product of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Benny Hinn and Elmer Gantry wearing a silk suit and a Rolex watch.

Fact: Those in the state of Israel must except Jesus as the Son of God (Messiah) by FAITH.
Not a miraculous infusion of their mind, turning them around like robots. in a "Return." (Sounds like Calvinism 101....:)

I see no difference in the alleged Jew, the Muslim with his Qur'an in his hand or the tattooed red neck in Pinegap, Kentucky. Neither believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the "PROMISED SEED "of Genesis 22:16-20. Therefore, has no intention of repenting; and being baptized into Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. You can pray for these souls till your socks fall off--but until they have been "taught," we will find these non believers in the "goat" corral as prophesied in Matthew 25:41-46.

I told you Red-----this would turn into an "eschatological donnybrook."

Gods promises to His people go beyond the spiritual only.
Not only did God say: "I am your God and you will be My people", He also promised them descendants and a land to live in.
The promise of God to restore Israel covers the complete promise God made to His people.

Below some excerpts from Isaiah, and there are many more, promising the restoration of the nation of Israel...call it Zionism if you wish:
Isa 11:12 - " And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."
Isa 11:16 - "And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt. "
Isa 12:4 - "Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee."
Isa 14:1 - "For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob."
Isa 17:3 - "The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts."
Isa 19:24 - " In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance. "

As I said, Zionism is a step towards Israel coming to Christ. It is part of the prophesy foretold many centuries ago that one day Israel, the country, shall again be restored.

Tyler · « **Reply #16 on:** Mon Sep 22, 2014 - 07:14:18 »

Red: "Then will Romans 11:30-36 be fulfilled and all will see that except God purposely shows grace, then no one would come and believe~between Israel of old and the Gentiles now following Israel's steps, God will prove and conclude that ALL Jews/Gentiles are in unbelief apart from his mercy, and would remain so apart from his mercy. "

Paul has written that "there is neither Jew nor Gentile" (Galatians 3:28) I do not want to be classified as a Gentile do you? You couldn't find a thoroughbred "Jew" with a search warrant today by "genealogy" and you know it!
Interesting--if a man could not be classified as a "Jew" in their "genealogy" (Ezra 2:62) he could not have anything to do in rebuilding the Temple after the return from their Captivity in Babylon. He would be classified as a Samaritan. A Samaritan would be classified as a "Gentile" (John 4)

Listen to these inspired words: "Therefore if a man (generic term-women included) is IN CHRIST he/she is a NEW CREATION: OLD thing are passed away; behold all things are become NEW" (11 Corinthians 5:17). What is so difficult about that passage? I mean--you do not even have to be a Greek scholar to understand Paul's words.

Why do you insist in holding on to "OLD things"? You don't like the name "Christian"?
Brother, if you are "IN CHRIST," you are seen in the eyes of God as a "new creation."
This is a PROMISE not a COVENANT. Think of it--"For he (God), has MADE him (Jesus), to be SIN
for us (you and me), that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM" (11 Cor. 5:21).

There are so many souls today trying their best to solve the "ending," that cannot explain how to become a Christian." This forum is full of men trying to inform me of how Jesus will return.
I just read on another Post how someone has found IsIs in the Bible.
Will it never end? these premillennial geniuses can find IsIs and Donald Duck in Revelation?

I ain't no "Gentile" Red---I am a "New Creation" who has not found the formula of the Lord's return, but believe in His PROMISE" that He will. Is that "Good News" or what?
I'm so happy I may go Walmart shopping today---talk at you later.

dpr · « **Reply #17 on:** Mon May 02, 2016 - 08:38:39 »

This site doesn't seem to get a lot of traffic. Old thread, but I'd like to give input.

The word generation in God's Word can, and does, have more than one usage. In the latter part of Luke 11 about the lawyers Jesus called "vipers", it applies to a specific family of people, from the time of Abel to the time of the blood of Zacharias.

But in Matt.24:34 with the generation in question, it applies to a generation involving time, like the time when a certain generation lives, like an era. An example would be my parent's generation is different than my generation I was born into.

In Matt.24 usage, Jesus is using it to pinpoint with signs the generation that will see His 2nd coming...

Matt 24:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The parable uses a simple example of horticulture, that of how when you see the leaves of the fig tree start to spring forth, you know that summer is just around the corner. Our Lord Jesus' usage of "summer" is about the event of His returning, likened to summer harvest time (Matt.9:37-38; Matt.13:30; Rev.14:15).

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

He already set the subject in the previous parable, i.e., the event of His 2nd coming, and that subject is continuing here, so He definitely is speaking of a generation era of time, specifically the era of those alive that will see "all these things". What "all these things"? The things He covered from the start of the chapter down to this, signs of the very end, which the last sign He gave was the event of His 2nd coming per the Matt.24:29-31 verses.

What that means is, ALL... of these signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse upon the Mount of Olivet with His disciples are for the very end of this world, for the last generation that will experience His 2nd coming. His 2nd coming has not happened yet today.

It means the destruction of the temple mount complex He mentioned is not about the destruction in 70 A.D., because even Rev.11:1-2 reveals there will be yet another temple built there for the very end of this world, in order for the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel to take place. That event didn't occur in 70 A.D. by the Romans because the temple burned down before they could get control of it, so no abomination idol with false worship was ever done in 70 A.D. And we do have the blueprint of that abomination of desolation event with the example Antiochus in 170 B.C. who desolated inside the temple and setup an idol of Zeus inside the temple for false worship in Jerusalem.

Lynnish · « **Reply #18 on:** Thu May 05, 2016 - 22:54:49 »

Red,
I am new to this forum. But I would be glad to debate you. If God's words count. You say a generation means "A type of people, or a family of people" but not a time period. But that is your opinion. The first impression (completely understood to the disciples to whom He was speaking) was that their generation would not pass away until all those things took place. Now you may argue this is not authors intent. But all authors, even God, has intent. Intent cannot be determined by one sentence or two. It is determined by hundreds of sentences and the entire context. So what is God's intent? Let's look at other time statements in the New Testament (of which their are many) to see the Lord's intent for the timing of the end time and the Lord's return. How about another one,

Jesus to His disciples:
...until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. (Mt.5:18)

So are you telling me we are still living under the law? This is a time statement , and if we are still waiting for all to be accomplished, we are still living under the law. If you don't think we are still living under the law, then all is accomplished.

TonkaTim · « **Reply #19 on:** Fri May 06, 2016 - 07:38:26 »

They way I undertsand it Jesus is talking about a specific generation in Matthew 24.

Before I explain l want to the look at the greek in Matthew.

In Matthew 1 γενέσεως is translated generation & means geneology

In Matthew 11 find the word γενεὰν which should mean beginning.
"16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

This beginning is fulfilled in the children of wisdom.

The same word is used in Matthew 23
"34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

This beginning is fulfilled in the children of wrath.

In Matthew 24 we find γενεὰ which means a specific generation.
"32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
What is the evidence of who this generation of people are?
"This generation shall not pass" What does that mean? It means they will not die.

"23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." - John 11

Just as His words will never pass away neither will the children of God.

Even though it has been 2000 years & many generations of flesh have passed we are still just one generation. The children born of Spirit. The children of God. The brothers & sister of Christ.

"30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this." Psalm 22 - The Psalm of the Cross

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me." - Hebrews 2

dpr · « **Reply #20 on:** Fri May 06, 2016 - 09:06:37 »

Quote from: TonkaTim on Fri May 06, 2016 - 07:38:26

They way I undertsand it Jesus is talking about a specific generation in Matthew 24.

....

Even though it has been 2000 years & many generations of flesh have passed....

The Greek word for generation does not determine the Scripture context, simply because the idea of genealogy is always tied to the idea of the word, even in English or any other language.

It can be used two ways as I showed, either about a specific family of people over many generations of time, or it can refer to a specific generation era.

Even in your own words in the above sentence you use the idea of different eras of generations with "many generations".

What determines the Matt.24 context of how generation is used is how Jesus tied it to a specific time to see the things He was declaring in that chapter, i.e., the signs of the end of this world.

TonkaTim · « **Reply #21 on:** Fri May 06, 2016 - 09:39:55 »

dpr, Many generations of flesh, but only one generation of spirit.

There are no aunts & uncles, grandparents, cousins etc in the generation of spirit. They are all one generation. The children of God through Christ. Why I took it to the Psalm of the Cross so we can see the fulfilling of that prophecy & its explanation in Hebrews 2.

I assumed the only ones who would disagree with the scriptures I presented are Preterist because the explanation is inconvenient to them & is another point that undoes their argument.

To me it is obvious "This generation shall not pass" means they have eternal life. In context & in context with the supporting scriptures.

doorknocker · « **Reply #22 on:** Fri May 06, 2016 - 17:39:57 »

Quote from: TonkaTim on Fri May 06, 2016 - 09:39:55

dpr, Many generations of flesh, but only one generation of spirit.

There are no aunts & uncles, grandparents, cousins etc in the generation of spirit. They are all one generation. The children of God through Christ. Why I took it to the Psalm of the Cross so we can see the fulfilling of that prophecy & its explanation in Hebrews 2.

I assumed the only ones who would disagree with the scriptures I presented are Preterist because the explanation is inconvenient to them & is another point that undoes their argument.

To me it is obvious "This generation shall not pass" means they have eternal life. In context & in context with the supporting scriptures.

Matthew 24, 34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

Just curious, when all these things have taken place, will this generation pass away?

TonkaTim · « **Reply #23 on:** Fri May 06, 2016 - 17:50:57 »

Never.

Quote from: TonkaTim

They way I undertsand it Jesus is talking about a specific generation in Matthew 24.

Before I explain l want to the look at the greek in Matthew.

In Matthew 1 γενέσεως is translated generation & means geneology

In Matthew 11 find the word γενεὰν which should mean beginning.
"16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

This beginning is fulfilled in the children of wisdom.

The same word is used in Matthew 23
"34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

This beginning is fulfilled in the children of wrath.

In Matthew 24 we find γενεὰ which means a specific generation.
"32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
What is the evidence of who this generation of people are?
"This generation shall not pass" What does that mean? It means they will not die.

"23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." - John 11

Just as His words will never pass away neither will the children of God.

Even though it has been 2000 years & many generations of flesh have passed we are still just one generation. The children born of Spirit. The children of God. The brothers & sister of Christ.

"30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this." Psalm 22 - The Psalm of the Cross

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me." - Hebrews 2

Look at verse 34 in context with 35 in Matthew 24.

Read the Psalm of the Cross. http://biblehub.com/kjv/psalms/22.htm Then meditate on the last two verses. I bet it'll click.

dpr · « **Reply #24 on:** Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:24:59 »

Quote from: TonkaTim on Fri May 06, 2016 - 09:39:55

dpr, Many generations of flesh, but only one generation of spirit.

There are no aunts & uncles, grandparents, cousins etc in the generation of spirit. They are all one generation. The children of God through Christ. Why I took it to the Psalm of the Cross so we can see the fulfilling of that prophecy & its explanation in Hebrews 2.

I assumed the only ones who would disagree with the scriptures I presented are Preterist because the explanation is inconvenient to them & is another point that undoes their argument.

To me it is obvious "This generation shall not pass" means they have eternal life. In context & in context with the supporting scriptures.

That sounds more like philosophy than an actual common sense reasoning approach to that passage from our Lord Jesus. I don't intend to offend with saying that, I'm just being honest.

When He said that generation shall not pass until all those things happen, He actually meant exactly that, so it's really simple to understand; we don't need a bunch of political analysts to analyze what He said and tell us. Just understand it how it's simply written, that's all.

dpr · « **Reply #25 on:** Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:33:08 »

Quote from: doorknocker on Fri May 06, 2016 - 17:39:57

Matthew 24, 34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

Just curious, when all these things have taken place, will this generation pass away?
[/quote]

The generation that will experience those things, yes. That will be the final generation of this world, because the very last sign Jesus gave there was the sign of His second coming and end of this present world.

RB · « **Reply #26 on:** Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:40:39 »

Quote from: dpr on Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:24:59

When He said that generation shall not pass until all those things happen, He actually meant exactly that, so it's really simple to understand; we don't need a bunch of political analysts to analyze what He said and tell us. Just understand it how it's simply written, that's all.

I had written a post to you last week, and almost finished it, and then lost it by hitting the wrong button~and because short on time, did not write another one. I will later today~so watch out for it, and let us talk about this topic.

dpr · « **Reply #27 on:** Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:49:53 »

Quote from: RB on Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:40:39

Quote from: dpr on Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:24:59
When He said that generation shall not pass until all those things happen, He actually meant exactly that, so it's really simple to understand; we don't need a bunch of political analysts to analyze what He said and tell us. Just understand it how it's simply written, that's all.
I had written a post to you last week, and almost finished it, and then lost it by hitting the wrong button~and because short on time, did not write another one. I will later today~so watch out for it, and let us talk about this topic.

Write what you want, but it won't change my understanding of it, because it's actually a very simple passage. One simply needs to keep it in the context of what He was talking about in that chapter instead of arguing over the system doctrines of men, which will lead nowhere.

TonkaTim · « **Reply #28 on:** Sun May 08, 2016 - 10:55:08 »

Quote from: dpr

That sounds more like philosophy than an actual common sense reasoning approach to that passage from our Lord Jesus. I don't intend to offend with saying that, I'm just being honest.

When He said that generation shall not pass until all those things happen, He actually meant exactly that, so it's really simple to understand; we don't need a bunch of political analysts to analyze what He said and tell us. Just understand it how it's simply written, that's all.

No worries brother. Just showing what I see & presenting the scriptures that show it to me.

Don't forget I have no expectation of another day after Jesus comes.

The way I see it, when the Sun & Moon go dark that represents the last night.

When Jesus comes. The Light comes. This is the last day. Eternity.

"22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there"

So when Jesus comes:
"17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously." Isaiah 24

Thus the last day begins like all days in darkness, but this day the last day never ends.

But knowing this is the last day, When Jesus comes it is also judgement day.

Like Isaiah said "the earth is clean dissolved".

Like Peter said "10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3

Like Paul said in Hebrews
"25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire."

Though the generation Jesus is discussing, His generation can never die but their wordly flesh does not remain. Paul explains about those that remain, they will be "transformed". As John said "we will be as He is". Those that remain have to put off "this body of death".

"49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.:"

So they do pass away in the flesh. From this world to the next. From the old heavens & earth into the new heavens & the new earth as they put on incorruption & shed "this body of death" into eternity, the Last Day.

It also means Christians will be here on this earth to the very end Just as Jesus says in this chapter.

RB · « **Reply #29 on:** Tue May 10, 2016 - 05:14:34 »

Quote

Matthew 24:34~"Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Men's whole eschatology teaching/doctrine/understanding of the end time and its related events, stands or falls with this one scripture, whether or not they will admit it, it is so. I do believe that one's true biblical understanding of eschatology, or at least the beginning of it, will begin with Matthew 24:34~for if one can start out correctly, they should be able to put the pieces of the puzzle together overall concerning end time and its related events, when overall considered. I wrote another post yesterday only to lose it for the second straight time, so let us try again for the third time. Lynnish said:

Quote

Red, I am new to this forum. But I would be glad to debate you.

All comments are more than welcome. I will try to address all comments as time permits me to do so. I've been very short on time lately, and have limited myself to just a few in early morning.

Quote

You say a generation means "A type of people, or a family of people" but not a time period. But that is your opinion.

I have never said that the word generation is limited to one sense, but that it is used many times over, and would add, most of the time in the sense in which I have used the word generation. God's word is its own interpreter of the use of its words that the Spirit has chosen to use, in order to hide truth from those who think they are wise and from the generations of vipers among God's children. Would you not agree with this statement?

Quote

But that is your opinion.

I do not have the right to have an opinion without biblical support of my opinion~which on this point I have more than you would care to address, I'm convinced. There are so many that it is not easy to know exactly where to start...but start I will. Would you say that Solomon was a very wise man? Do you think that he would use a word and know the sense in which he was using it? Let us see.

Quote

Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."

Generation here means a kind of person, for it lacks demonstrative pronouns or other modifiers for a period of time. It is not a prophecy of the future, when children would be rebellious, for all ages have such sinners. The first generation, or kind of evil person, is cruel and rebellious to parents. The second generation, or kind of person, is self-righteous about purity. He, or she, has a haughty heart toward God’s word, presuming that it seldom applies to him. Confident in his own wisdom and standard of holiness, he looks down on others as inferior and lords it over them in thoughts, speech, and conduct. He feels God is obligated to accept him and will most certainly do so. He sees little need for self-examination or personal repentance. The third generation, or kind of evil person, is arrogant and proud about his abilities, character, accomplishments, possessions, and/or value. Rather than casting his eyes to the ground in humility, he lifts them up even in the sight of God (Luke 18:9-14). He can easily be disrespectful or snotty, unless it is in his best interests to show a little deference. The fourth generation, or kind of evil person, is oppressive and cruel in word and deed, especially toward the helpless, poor, and weak. This intimidating and threatening brute has no pity or regard for those in need or trouble. He or she is selfish, merciless, and violent. They do not have ordinary compassion for those under them or near them, and they often rise to positions of power by corrupting or destroying anyone in their way. These type of the generation of the wicked are in every generation of men living on the earth during a period of time; at the same time, or thereabouts the same time; which is also a sense in which the word can be used, but seldom is used in the scriptures. John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter, all used the word generation in reference to a kind, or type of people, almost, if not exclusively.

Quote

Matthew 3:7~"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

Again:

Quote

Matthew 23:33~"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Again:

Quote

1st Peter 2:13~"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

There are many more~but, I can not only give you many more scriptures that supports the meaning of generation to mean a type of people; but can link the word "THIS" with generation, just as Jesus did in his Olivet discourse , which will give it a double support as meaning a type, or kind of people.

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Psalm 12:1-8~"Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted."

Who was David speaking of when he use the words: "this generation"? Was he speaking of a particularly kind of people, or all men living on the earth during his day? It's very simple to see, is it not? Of course it is, unless we desire not to see it. Later....

doorknocker · « **Reply #30 on:** Tue May 10, 2016 - 06:43:22 »

Quote from: RB on Tue May 10, 2016 - 05:14:34

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Matthew 24:34~"Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Men's whole eschatology teaching/doctrine/understanding of the end time and its related events, stands or falls with this one scripture, whether or not they will admit it, it is so. I do believe that one's true biblical understanding of eschatology, or at least the beginning of it, will begin with Matthew 24:34~for if one can start out correctly, they should be able to put the pieces of the puzzle together overall concerning end time and its related events, when overall considered. I wrote another post yesterday only to lose it for the second straight time, so let us try again for the third time. Lynnish said:
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Red, I am new to this forum. But I would be glad to debate you.
All comments are more than welcome. I will try to address all comments as time permits me to do so. I've been very short on time lately, and have limited myself to just a few in early morning.
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You say a generation means "A type of people, or a family of people" but not a time period. But that is your opinion.
I have never said that the word generation is limited to one sense, but that it is used many times over, and would add, most of the time in the sense in which I have used the word generation. God's word is its own interpreter of the use of its words that the Spirit has chosen to use, in order to hide truth from those who think they are wise and from the generations of vipers among God's children. Would you not agree with this statement?
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But that is your opinion.
I do not have the right to have an opinion without biblical support of my opinion~which on this point I have more than you would care to address, I'm convinced. There are so many that it is not easy to know exactly where to start...but start I will. Would you say that Solomon was a very wise man? Do you think that he would use a word and know the sense in which he was using it? Let us see.
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Proverbs 30:11-14~"There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."

Proverbs 30, 11-14
There are those that curse their fathers and do not bless their mothers.
There are those who are pure in their own eyes but are not cleansed of their filth.
There are those - how lofty are their eyes, how high their eyelids lift!
There are those whose teeth are swords, whose teeth are knives,
to devour the poor from off the earth, the needy from among men.

By the way Red, Proverbs 30 were the words of Agur, son of Jakeh of Massa.

TonkaTim · « **Reply #31 on:** Tue May 10, 2016 - 07:46:23 »

Quote from: RB

Men's whole eschatology teaching/doctrine/understanding of the end time and its related events, stands or falls with this one scripture

Much truth in that statement. The Apostle Paul said "For now we see through a glass, darkly", our eschatology adds another lens. Does it make it clearer or more fuzzy?

Why I settled on my perspective. To me it made things more clear.

Even lead me to this conclusion; There are 31,102 verses in the Bible. Out of those 31,102 verses only two could possibly make one think there is another day after the last day with no supporting witnesses. Why I settled on the perspective we are in the Kingdom now. Christ reigns now. And quit thinking there might be 365,000 more days after the last day.

"Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

Just because we don't yet see it, doesn't mean it is not so.

RB · « **Reply #32 on:** Tue May 10, 2016 - 08:47:29 »

Quote from: doorknocker on Tue May 10, 2016 - 06:43:22

By the way Red, Proverbs 30 were the words of Agur, son of Jakeh of Massa.

Agree~yet Solomon collected them and added them to his.

raggthyme13 · « **Reply #33 on:** Wed May 11, 2016 - 01:50:21 »

Quote from: dpr on Sun May 08, 2016 - 07:49:53

Write what you want, but it won't change my understanding of it, because it's actually a very simple passage. One simply needs to keep it in the context of what He was talking about in that chapter instead of arguing over the system doctrines of men, which will lead nowhere.

If you go back to the first few verses you will see the simple context is the "herodian" temple and it's impending destruction. After all, that's what the disciples were referring to when they asked him when and what signs would ensue. Yet many Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind. I would agree, "this generation" seems to be the generation which sees these things come to pass… but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered).

TonkaTim · « **Reply #34 on:** Wed May 11, 2016 - 02:22:29 »

Quote from: raggthyme13

Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind.

The reason they feel that way is because Jesus is answering three questions.

Lets take a look;
"1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

1. First question = "when shall these things be?" (Temple destroyed)

2. Second question = "what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

3. Third question = "and of the end of the world?"

These three questions are why.

The Temple is gone but the world is still here.

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