Author Topic: This Generation~Matthew 24:34  (Read 5190 times)

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Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #35 on: Wed May 11, 2016 - 02:56:08 »
Quote from: raggthyme13
Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind.

The reason they feel that way is because Jesus is answering three questions.

Lets take a look;
"1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

1. First question = "when shall these things be?" (Temple destroyed)

2. Second question = "what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

3. Third question = "and of the end of the world?"

These three questions are why.

The Temple is gone but the world is still here.

In Luke, he's answering two.. correct or incorrect?

Offline RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #36 on: Wed May 11, 2016 - 03:28:18 »
but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered).
I will agree with this so important  statement:
Quote
(if the context of the chapter is being considered
Because the context does indeed always drives the interpretation for us, yet so many believe this to be so, yet do not truly practice what they are saying, or, they have a preconceived notion of what the context is saying, based upon a few things:  first, what they have been taught in the past and received as truth, yet it was not; which is so difficult to remove from our thinking when trying to truly understand what we are considering; or, God just has not been please to open one's understanding for whatever reason, which we leave that with him to do as he seems fit and which best serves his purposes. Now, this being said, I know that it is an undisputed truth, that Matthew 24 is one complete discourse with Matthew 25, and must be interpreted with Matthew 25 being considered as the very same discourse with an uninterrupted message of the very same contents that makes up the context of Jesus' discourse. That being said, then we must consider Matthew 24,25, with Mark 13 and Luke 21; when this is done, it can be proven to any who has eyes to see and ears to hear, that Jesus is speaking of the latter days just before his second and only visible coming taught in the New Testament.  
« Last Edit: Wed May 11, 2016 - 03:30:26 by RB »

Offline RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #37 on: Wed May 11, 2016 - 04:28:21 »
like to give input.
In all sincerity, it is welcome.
Quote
Write what you want, but it won't change my understanding of it,
Well now, that's not the spirit to have without ever giving us a fair hearing and then testing us with the scriptures of truth. You added:
Quote
because it's actually a very simple passage
Well, that could be said of many scriptures, such as John 3:16, yet I know that many, even those who have never honestly considered the scriptures overall think they know what John is saying, yet they do not! Truth is only simple to those who understand, and then they may very well struggle on another doctrine, which another brother, or sister has truth on, yet they do not!
Quote
Proverbs 8:9~"They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge."
Some say, “The Bible is too difficult!” Others say, “The Bible contradicts itself!” Many conclude, “Anything can be taught from the Bible. It is impossible to know the truth for sure.” The devil laughs with evil satisfaction at such absurd remarks. But true wisdom teaches that the words of wisdom are plain and right~ to those with understanding and knowledge! I will agree that "IF" one have a problem with the Bible, then they have the problem, not the Bible! We all agree that a little understanding and knowledge, from fearing the Lord and trembling before His word, will open the Bible to us (Proverbs 1:7; 9:10; Psalm 25:14; Isaiah 66:2; Luke 8:18). The words become plain and right, when you study the Bible humbly by its rules of interpretation. If we approach it arrogantly or critically, it is designed to confuse and destroy us (Ezekiel 14:1-11; I Corinthians 1:19-20; 2:13-15; 2nd Thessalonians  2:9-12; 2nd Timothy  2:15; 2nd Peter 3:16). We all should give each a fair hearing and test each with the word of God, not with our preconceived notions of what the truth is, and is not.
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The word generation in God's Word can, and does, have more than one usage. In the latter part of Luke 11 about the lawyers Jesus called "vipers", it applies to a specific family of people, from the time of Abel to the time of the blood of Zacharias.
Agreed
Quote
But in Matt.24:34 with the generation in question, it applies to a generation involving time, like the time when a certain generation lives, like an era.
I can see where you may think that, just as I once did many years ago, but the context will not support it. which we will address later when we come to it.
Quote
In Matt.24 usage, Jesus is using it to pinpoint with signs the generation that will see His 2nd coming...
While I do agree that Jesus gave us signs to pinpoint the time frame of the little season JUST BEFORE HIS COMING, a little season that very well could last a "few hundred years" by saying that this generation shall not pass until all be fulfilled, yet the very generation that Jesus is speaking about not passing are the very generation that is the very cause of the tribulation that he said would come to such a degree that no flesh would be saved (speaking only concerning practical knowledge of the truth, has not one thing to do with destroying the flesh of man, since the tribulation spoken of in the scriptures, are strictly of a spiritual nature, and NOT of an outwardly warfare between flesh and blood). Without controversy on my part~the contexts of the Oilvet discourse  (from Matthew 24,25) are concerning Christ second coming at the end of this world, with Jesus pinpointing certain related events that will occur by and evil and wicked generation of men arising out of the bottomless pit in in great numbers, whom Jesus referred to as THIS GENERATION, which was the very people he was describing for us from Matthew 24:5-30!   I'll come back and finish your post to me.

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #38 on: Wed May 11, 2016 - 11:48:00 »
but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered).
I will agree with this so important  statement:
Quote
(if the context of the chapter is being considered
Because the context does indeed always drives the interpretation for us, yet so many believe this to be so, yet do not truly practice what they are saying, or, they have a preconceived notion of what the context is saying, based upon a few things:  first, what they have been taught in the past and received as truth, yet it was not; which is so difficult to remove from our thinking when trying to truly understand what we are considering; or, God just has not been please to open one's understanding for whatever reason, which we leave that with him to do as he seems fit and which best serves his purposes. Now, this being said, I know that it is an undisputed truth, that Matthew 24 is one complete discourse with Matthew 25, and must be interpreted with Matthew 25 being considered as the very same discourse with an uninterrupted message of the very same contents that makes up the context of Jesus' discourse. That being said, then we must consider Matthew 24,25, with Mark 13 and Luke 21; when this is done, it can be proven to any who has eyes to see and ears to hear, that Jesus is speaking of the latter days just before his second and only visible coming taught in the New Testament.

Hi Red,

Always a pleasure discussing with you. The point I am making is that the context of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are given to us in the first few verses...

The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. He proceeds to answer them.

I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter.
« Last Edit: Wed May 11, 2016 - 12:24:58 by raggthyme13 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #39 on: Wed May 11, 2016 - 12:30:55 »
raggthyme13 said; "The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter. "


That is why you took issue when I pointed out:
Quote from: TonkaTim
Quote from: raggthyme13
Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind.

The reason they feel that way is because Jesus is answering three questions.

Lets take a look;
"1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

1. First question = "when shall these things be?" (Temple destroyed)

2. Second question = "what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

3. Third question = "and of the end of the world?"

These three questions are why.

The Temple is gone but the world is still here.

The reason you prefer the phrasing in Luke. You don't want to consider the time transition.

In Luke Jesus does make the time transition from early to late in verse 24:
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Another one of the reasons the Ancients to many in the present age consider earthly Jerusalem Babylon the Great. I know you preterist do as well, but for some reason you guys do not want to talk about or consider the time transition Jesus tells us about. I wish yall would.

When the earthly city is no longer trodden down Jesus says in the next verses:
"25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."


Looks like it is getting closer & closer. Folks really need to be looking up. Looking at the evidence. Looking to the heavenly, looking to Jesus.


As a side note; when I see folks looking down at their iPhones all the time I see irony.
Looks like everyone is walking around praying.
But they are not.
Minds are filled with inane Facebook memes..
as they bump into light posts & each other...
completely clueless about their desperate need for Jesus Christ.

How does one tell someone about Jesus when they can not even look up to pay any attention?



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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #39 on: Wed May 11, 2016 - 12:30:55 »



Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #40 on: Wed May 11, 2016 - 16:03:29 »
raggthyme13 said; "The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter. "


That is why you took issue when I pointed out:
Quote from: TonkaTim
Quote from: raggthyme13
Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind.

The reason they feel that way is because Jesus is answering three questions.

Lets take a look;
"1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

1. First question = "when shall these things be?" (Temple destroyed)

2. Second question = "what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

3. Third question = "and of the end of the world?"

These three questions are why.

The Temple is gone but the world is still here.

The reason you prefer the phrasing in Luke. You don't want to consider the time transition.

In Luke Jesus does make the time transition from early to late in verse 24:
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Another one of the reasons the Ancients to many in the present age consider earthly Jerusalem Babylon the Great. I know you preterist do as well, but for some reason you guys do not want to talk about or consider the time transition Jesus tells us about. I wish yall would.

When the earthly city is no longer trodden down Jesus says in the next verses:
"25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."


Looks like it is getting closer & closer. Folks really need to be looking up. Looking at the evidence. Looking to the heavenly, looking to Jesus.


As a side note; when I see folks looking down at their iPhones all the time I see irony.
Looks like everyone is walking around praying.
But they are not.
Minds are filled with inane Facebook memes..
as they bump into light posts & each other...
completely clueless about their desperate need for Jesus Christ.

How does one tell someone about Jesus when they can not even look up to pay any attention?

It's not that I prefer the phrasing in Luke.. Mark actually phrases it the same way. Only Matthew mentions the sign in reference to his "parousia and the end of the aiōn".

It just seems that we need to consider the way Luke records the conversation between Jesus and his disciples, because in his account they only asked two questions and both were in regards to the desolation of the temple. I am convinced that we should read the Lord's full answer to them in this context and not assume he randomly jumps to a far-removed, universal judgment in verse 24. Assumption is never better than reasonable deduction, is it?

So, going off of the phrasing in Luke and Mark, I think it's sensible to deduce that in Matthew's account, the disciples tied his coming and the end of the world/age directly to the impending judgment upon Jerusalem and the (herodian) temple. In my opinion, there is a very specific reason the Holy Spirit inspired them to write it as they did. Isn't it at least possible (in your mind) that God wanted us to tie these things together as well? If not, why not?

« Last Edit: Wed May 11, 2016 - 16:39:38 by raggthyme13 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #41 on: Wed May 11, 2016 - 17:08:23 »
I don't think I could call Judgement far-removed.

Why not take all three in context? Together?

Rather than rationalize away certain passages?


If the destruction of earthly Jerusalem was the sign of the permanent end of the Mosaic age, also becoming a symbol of apostasy during the Christian age(Galations 4), why would it not also be the same sign for the permanent end of the entire earth age?

Isn't that the expectation?
"the earth shall be clean dissolved"?
"the former things are passed away"?
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."?
(Isaiah 24,65, Rev 21)

So the permanent death of the widow must come to pass too showing the Bride & Groom to be completely free in the new?
Why symbolically the Wedding Supper does not take place until the widow is gone?

Have you ever consider that possibility?

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #42 on: Wed May 11, 2016 - 18:58:27 »
I don't think I could call Judgement far-removed.

Why not take all three in context? Together?

Rather than rationalize away certain passages?



Far-removed from their time, that is. Why assume he spoke of another besides the one they asked him about? In two out of three accounts it was recorded that they specifically asked him two questions, when the stones would be thrown down and what sign would be when these things would come to pass. I do find it interesting that Jesus' answer to them (in all three books) began with,

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by." 

What does this end have to do with either of the questions above unless the account in Matthew helps us to understand that this end refers to those "days of vengeance", the end of the world/age? Again, is it at all possible that God would have us tie these events together even as it appears the disciples did?



« Last Edit: Thu May 12, 2016 - 01:50:31 by raggthyme13 »

Offline dpr

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #43 on: Thu May 12, 2016 - 18:37:58 »


So, going off of the phrasing in Luke and Mark, I think it's sensible to deduce that in Matthew's account, the disciples tied his coming and the end of the world/age directly to the impending judgment upon Jerusalem and the (herodian) temple. In my opinion, there is a very specific reason the Holy Spirit inspired them to write it as they did. Isn't it at least possible (in your mind) that God wanted us to tie these things together as well? If not, why not?

If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #44 on: Thu May 12, 2016 - 23:00:13 »


So, going off of the phrasing in Luke and Mark, I think it's sensible to deduce that in Matthew's account, the disciples tied his coming and the end of the world/age directly to the impending judgment upon Jerusalem and the (herodian) temple. In my opinion, there is a very specific reason the Holy Spirit inspired them to write it as they did. Isn't it at least possible (in your mind) that God wanted us to tie these things together as well? If not, why not?

If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.

Not sure what you're saying here.. do you believe the Lord spoke of another temple in the gospel accounts?

Rev 11:

1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months."

Don't you find it at least partially intriguing that the desolation of Jerusalem in ad70 lasted three and a half years???

Why do you believe John (in Revelation) wasn't writing about the temple standing when Christ walked the earth? Is it because you believe in the late dating of the book?

How do you then explain that Jesus answered their question about the dismantling of the temple stones with,

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by." 

What does this end have to do with either of their questions (in Mark and Luke's account) unless Matthew helps us to understand that this end refers to those "days of vengeance" Luke wrote about... the desolation of Jerusalem and what is called "Herod's" temple.
« Last Edit: Fri May 13, 2016 - 01:23:00 by raggthyme13 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #45 on: Thu May 12, 2016 - 23:26:34 »
raggthyme13, What about the very next verse?
"3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
 
And their power?
"4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."


I ask because you have successfully hijacked this discussion about Matthew 24:34 & turned it into a preterism debate.

How do your in your preterist view explain them since you say it already happened?

I ask that question because 1260 days divided by 30 = 42 months

Who where the two witnesses during the seige in 70AD?

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

When did this happen during the siege in 70AD?

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #46 on: Fri May 13, 2016 - 02:27:14 »
raggthyme13, What about the very next verse?
"3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
 
And their power?
"4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."


I ask because you have successfully hijacked this discussion about Matthew 24:34 & turned it into a preterism debate.

How do your in your preterist view explain them since you say it already happened?

I ask that question because 1260 days divided by 30 = 42 months

Who where the two witnesses during the seige in 70AD?

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

When did this happen during the siege in 70AD?

My apologies for getting this thread off track, but it is in the preterist forum… and the OP was geared towards preterists. "This generation" is (in my opinion) the generation that sees "these things" come to pass. I originally brought up Luke because it seems the question is answered when the context of the chapter is taken into consideration. The generation that lived during the days of vengeance upon Jerusalem and said temple would be the generation that sees all these things come to pass. But replying to several people, I will agree, I inadvertently hijacked the later discussions here. Again, my apologies.


As to your question about the two witnesses, I would be foolish to say that I knew. I appreciate what Adam Clarke observed,

"This is extremely obscure; the conjectures of interpreters are as unsatisfactory as they are endless on this point. Those who wish to be amused or bewildered, may have recourse both to ancients and moderns on this subject."

I think I have asked a very simple question and before I dismiss myself I would really love for someone to attempt to answer…

How does one explain that Jesus (in both Luke and Mark) began answering their question about the dismantling of the temple stones with,

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by." 

What does this "end" have to do with either of their questions unless Matthew's account helps us to understand that it refers specifically to the "days of vengeance" Luke wrote about... the desolation of Jerusalem and what is called "Herod's" temple.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #47 on: Fri May 13, 2016 - 02:59:32 »
raggthyme13 said "My apologies for getting this thread off track, but it is in the preterist forum"

Umm, this is in the debate section. It was a debate between Red Baker & Tyler in 2014. It was recently resurrected by dpr in post 17:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023086/#msg1055023086


 I joined in post 19 here - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023427/#msg1055023427




Then you join in post 33 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023890/#msg1055023890
and inject preterism with this statement:
"If you go back to the first few verses you will see the simple context is the "herodian" temple and it's impending destruction. After all, that's what the disciples were referring to when they asked him when and what signs would ensue. Yet many Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind. I would agree, "this generation" seems to be the generation which sees these things come to pass… but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered)."

Then in your next post you want to move to the book of Luke & continue your conversation about preterism. That is ok we all know you are a preterist.
We've all talked to you about it before & understand your position.



Quote from: raggthyme13
I would really love for someone to attempt to answer


The reason most folks can't answer that question is because they do not believe it has happened.

If did happen in 70AD I'm quite sure Josephus would have reported it in his eye-witness account of such phenomenal events.
He reported on the signs in the sky & the great voice saying "let us depart from this place"


Josephus does give a detailed account.


If it had happened in the  siege of 70AD there would be recorded history & witnesses to the two witnesses.


But you know this. Why you so nimbly side-stepped the question.
Very well done.

 


Offline RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #48 on: Fri May 13, 2016 - 04:50:01 »
Always a pleasure discussing with you.
I have the same spirit toward you, indeed a pleasure, and we're here to learn from each other, if God is please to open our hearts to his precious word. I have been very sick with an usual end of spring flu bug, so please bear with me to gather my thoughts.  I'm very weak still as it lingers on.
Quote
The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. He proceeds to answer them. I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter.
Dear believer, you are absolutely correct, and as we do, then it becomes very evident that 70 A.D. was not even on Jesus' mind, we must assume it is, specially in the light of false teaching on the Oilvet discourse. Sister, Jesus' words were not fulfilled as literal as you and others believe, yet in THAT DAY when Jesus comes again there will not be one stone left upon another.   Even to this very day, the great wailing wall is still THERE! The Wailing Wall is on the western side of the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem.Still there by the way. Beside, dear soul, the OVERALL context of Matthew 24 takes us far past 70 A.D. and can be intrepreted with Daniel 7-12; 2nd Thess. 2; Revelation 7-20, just as dpr said:
Quote
If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.
If one had never heard of 70 A. D., then they would have never even try to force the scriptures on end time into 70. A.D.  All of Matthew 24 and 25 is speaking of the latter days of the church age just before Jesus' second coming And the generation that shall not pass until all be fulfilled is the generation of FALSE PROPHETS and evil and wicked men, that shall actually ABOUND in that day. The world will not be converted but evil men shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5 fits perfectly with Matthew 24.
« Last Edit: Fri May 13, 2016 - 04:53:14 by RB »

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #49 on: Fri May 13, 2016 - 05:29:52 »
raggthyme13 said "My apologies for getting this thread off track, but it is in the preterist forum"

Umm, this is in the debate section. It was a debate between Red Baker & Tyler in 2014. It was recently resurrected by dpr in post 17:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023086/#msg1055023086


 I joined in post 19 here - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023427/#msg1055023427




Then you join in post 33 - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debates-111/this-generation~matthew-2434/msg1055023890/#msg1055023890
and inject preterism with this statement:
"If you go back to the first few verses you will see the simple context is the "herodian" temple and it's impending destruction. After all, that's what the disciples were referring to when they asked him when and what signs would ensue. Yet many Christians believe and teach that the Lord completely changed the subject to a far and final judgment of all mankind. I would agree, "this generation" seems to be the generation which sees these things come to pass… but these things coming to pass had to do with the razing of the temple standing before them (if the context of the chapter is being considered)."

Then in your next post you want to move to the book of Luke & continue your conversation about preterism. That is ok we all know you are a preterist.
We've all talked to you about it before & understand your position.



Quote from: raggthyme13
I would really love for someone to attempt to answer


The reason most folks can't answer that question is because they do not believe it has happened.

If did happen in 70AD I'm quite sure Josephus would have reported it in his eye-witness account of such phenomenal events.
He reported on the signs in the sky & the great voice saying "let us depart from this place"


Josephus does give a detailed account.


If it had happened in the  siege of 70AD there would be recorded history & witnesses to the two witnesses.


But you know this. Why you so nimbly side-stepped the question.
Very well done.


I don't see how I side-stepped. I said plainly that I would be foolish to say I knew (because there has been so much debate throughout the centuries about the identity of the two witnesses). Josephus speaks of a Jesus, Son of Ananus pronouncing woes against Jerusalem for those 3 1/2 years. Some say he, as Christ himself, fits the bill. Some say Peter and Paul. Some, the church and it's persecution. There are many ideas about who they were/are, some literal, some figurative (as you probably know) but I am not fully convinced of any of them. (And I should add that many preterists actually believe that the temple spoken of in Revelation 11:1 is not the earthly temple, but the heavenly one… namely the church.) I just do not know for sure one way or the other.

None of this really matters much to me though, because not knowing their identity does not negate the context in which the prophecy (in the gospel accounts) was spoken. It is stated in the first few verses of each chapter for all to see. The temple standing before them was the only temple spoken about in all three of those chapters. I have asked non-preterists before to show me where Jesus mentions another temple in Matthew, Mark or Luke.. they cannot. 

It is merely speculation to say the Lord prophesied that day of some future temple stones being thrown down. You'd have to dismiss the context completely to believe that. My original post here was saying just that, contextually, "this generation" would be the generation which saw all the things leading up to the razing of Herod's temple. That would be a direct reply to the original post. That one was not off topic.

Red said:
"I would like to present a debate to all perterist on the phrase This generation, as it is defined for us from the scriptures.  The corner stone of their eschatology rest entirely upon their understanding of this generation."


I believe anything I've sidetracked with here was in reply to someone else's reply to me.


As far as the debate section goes, I have always thought that it was under the preterist section, my mistake. That seems silly now that I think of it, since there is no debate section anywhere else.  ::doh::


"The reason most folks can't answer that question is because they do not believe it has happened."

Are you saying most people don't believe Jesus was talking about the temple in his day?? I would say most people can read the context very clearly to see what temple is front and center:

And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


My question was simply:

Why would Jesus (in Mark and Luke) begin to answer them about "false Christs" and "the end" when their questions

1. "When will these things be?"

and

2. "What sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"


were obviously concerning the temple standing before them??

I would like an answer to that, if possible.

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #50 on: Fri May 13, 2016 - 05:33:58 »
Always a pleasure discussing with you.
I have the same spirit toward you, indeed a pleasure, and we're here to learn from each other, if God is please to open our hearts to his precious word. I have been very sick with an usual end of spring flu bug, so please bear with me to gather my thoughts.  I'm very weak still as it lingers on.
Quote
The disciples are raving about the magnificence of the temple. Jesus replies that it's stones will be completely dismantled. They ask when these things will be and what sign there will be. He proceeds to answer them. I firmly believe we should (first and foremost) take this context into consideration when reading the rest of each chapter.
Dear believer, you are absolutely correct, and as we do, then it becomes very evident that 70 A.D. was not even on Jesus' mind, we must assume it is, specially in the light of false teaching on the Oilvet discourse. Sister, Jesus' words were not fulfilled as literal as you and others believe, yet in THAT DAY when Jesus comes again there will not be one stone left upon another.   Even to this very day, the great wailing wall is still THERE! The Wailing Wall is on the western side of the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem.Still there by the way. Beside, dear soul, the OVERALL context of Matthew 24 takes us far past 70 A.D. and can be intrepreted with Daniel 7-12; 2nd Thess. 2; Revelation 7-20, just as dpr said:
Quote
If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.
If one had never heard of 70 A. D., then they would have never even try to force the scriptures on end time into 70. A.D.  All of Matthew 24 and 25 is speaking of the latter days of the church age just before Jesus' second coming And the generation that shall not pass until all be fulfilled is the generation of FALSE PROPHETS and evil and wicked men, that shall actually ABOUND in that day. The world will not be converted but evil men shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5 fits perfectly with Matthew 24.


Thank you for your reply, Red. It's very late, so I will start with the topic of the Wailing Wall. Many point the fact that it still stands as evidence that Jesus' prophesy did not come to pass in the first century. Please consider this snippet from www.jewishvirtuallibrary.com:

When Rome destroyed the Second Temple in 70 C.E., only one outer wall remained standing. The Romans probably would have destroyed that wall as well, but it must have seemed too insignificant to them; it was not even part of the Temple itself, just an outer wall surrounding the Temple Mount.

If the context truly was the "buildings" of the temple itself, there would be no need for an outer wall to have been destroyed. As I understand it, history records that each and every stone of the temple was thrown down as the Roman armies made sure to collect every bit of gold therein. In this, Jesus' words were fulfilled literally in the siege.

I will write more as I can.
« Last Edit: Fri May 13, 2016 - 06:10:39 by raggthyme13 »

Offline dpr

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #51 on: Fri May 13, 2016 - 07:18:34 »

If the last Book that ended The Bible were the Gospel Books, then the "herodian" temple idea might apply. But alas, as usual, men's doctrines always leave out portions of Bible Scripture that changes their interpretation, and in this case it's Revelation 11:1-2 which is within 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing at the end of this world, proving men's Preterist ideology as false.

Not sure what you're saying here.. do you believe the Lord spoke of another temple in the gospel accounts?

Rev 11:

1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months."

Don't you find it at least partially intriguing that the desolation of Jerusalem in ad70 lasted three and a half years???

Why do you believe John (in Revelation) wasn't writing about the temple standing when Christ walked the earth? Is it because you believe in the late dating of the book?

How do you then explain that Jesus answered their question about the dismantling of the temple stones with,

"Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by." 

What does this end have to do with either of their questions (in Mark and Luke's account) unless Matthew helps us to understand that this end refers to those "days of vengeance" Luke wrote about... the desolation of Jerusalem and what is called "Herod's" temple.
[/quote]

The temple shown in Rev.11:1-2 definitely is not the same temple during the Apostle's day.

The time reference of Christ's Olivet discourse is for the very end of this world, which is the subject His disciples asked Him about, i.e., His 2nd coming and the end of this world...

 Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?
KJV

Simple grammar requires one to stay on that specific subject they asked Him, and not travel to la-la land with men's leaven added to the Scripture.

That means ---

1. The temple Jesus was talking about when referencing the then standing temple was the future temple of Rev.11:1-2 that is for the end of this world just prior to His 2nd coming, which the Jews in Jerusalem today are preparing to build.

2. The Olivet discourse signs Jesus gave actually are the Revelation Seals of Rev.6. If He was not giving signs of the end of this world, then His Olivet signs would not align with Revelation which was definitely written about the events at the end of this world.

3. The "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of a idol in the temple at Jerusalem, making the temple DESOLATE spiritually. It is NOT about destruction of the temple. Jesus gave the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel as one of the signs, and that event did NOT happen in 70 A.D., as the temple burned before the Romans could seize it.

4. The very last sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse was that of His 2nd coming, which did not happen then, nor has it happened yet today, and it WILL be a literal resurrection bodily return of our Lord Jesus, in the same transfigured body He had after The Father raised Him which His disciples saw after His death and resurrection.

This is all so... simple, if one follows the Scriptures as they are actually written. But it appears websites like these are designed more for make-believe, since seldom do I find that many staying within God's Word without defaulting to doctrines of men.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #52 on: Fri May 13, 2016 - 09:18:01 »
Then debate Red. Like I said it is a two year old thread. I was happily talking with dpr. I was following up with him on a conversation dpr & I had in Personal message. Red seems to enjoy your conversation. I don't. I find your responses disingenuous like your above posts. Too many feints of ignorance when questions are inconvenient, circular reasoning & logical fallacies.


Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #53 on: Fri May 13, 2016 - 18:59:17 »
Then debate Red. Like I said it is a two year old thread. I was happily talking with dpr. I was following up with him on a conversation dpr & I had in Personal message. Red seems to enjoy your conversation. I don't. I find your responses disingenuous like your above posts. Too many feints of ignorance when questions are inconvenient, circular reasoning & logical fallacies.

That's fine, Tim. My first post here was to dpr anyhow. You just happened to respond to it and that's why you and I found ourselves in a conversation. Personally, I like talking to you, and pretty much everyone else I've come across on this forum. Sorry you don't feel the same.

I will discuss this with Red and leave you to your debate with dpr.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #54 on: Sat May 14, 2016 - 00:26:59 »
raggthyme13, thank you for your kind response. That is one of the things I do appreciate about you. You always seems you do try to be generous & kind to folks. Our problem is this particular topic & our perspectives put us at odds on it. I try to be kind as well, but feel I fail miserably when the two of us discuss this particular topic. I admit I get frustrated. It is usually difficult to do that to me. What seems so obvious to me on this topic seems so obscure to you. I struggle with your debating style as well. Outside this one topic I believe should have a lot of common ground & conversation on those topics on which we agree would probably be quite enjoyable. Hopefully we can have an enjoyable conversations on other topics in the near future.

Offline RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #55 on: Sat May 14, 2016 - 04:59:57 »
As I understand it, history records that each and every stone of the temple was thrown down as the Roman armies made sure to collect every bit of gold therein. In this, Jesus' words were fulfilled literally in the siege.
A few thoughts for you to consider: Remember I said these words:
Quote
Beside, dear soul, the OVERALL context of Matthew 24 takes us far past 70 A.D. and can be interpreted with Daniel 7-12; 2nd Thess. 2; Revelation 7-20, just as dpr said:
There is so much in Matthew 24,25 that will not give us any support in trying to limit~"one stones left upon another to 70 A.D."  That's my main reason of rejecting the 70 A. D. theory, and a theory it is. Jesus spoke of many things following verses 2,3, of Matthew 24 that clearly takes us to the last days of the church age and the great tribulation that shall plague the outward professing church of Jesus Christ. History shall indeed repeat itself~just as Israel in Jeremiah's days suffered greatly spiritually as far as embracing the true worship of their God and spirituality was at a all time low, so shall the Gentiles churches follow suite and will apostate from God and will be taken over by the same spirit of Mystery Babylon! There are much in verses 5-30 of Matthew 24, that will not allow you to limit it to 70 A.D. Personally, I care less what happened in 70 A.D. since the scriptures said nothing about it and history at best are mixed with lies. Were you there in 70 A.D.? Neither was I. But, we both have God's word that is totally silence concerning that time period; vain men have labored endlessly trying to use that time period to twist and pervert God's word, namely because of the sound bites in the scriptures available at their finger tips, which God put there to allow men to be deceived who were ordained to this condemnation, just as Jude spoke of!   

When the "fullness of time" had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, and made under the law, to redeem them that were under its curse, that we might receive the adoption of sons. His eternal purpose had reach another level of unfolding his eternal mysteries, one being that the two (Jews and Gentiles) shall become ONE in Jesus Christ.  All of the OT~ people,(Israel after the flesh)  worship, and its temple, were only meant to be temporary until  God's hidden mysteries could run their courses, and once that happen after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then those weak and beggarly temporary substitutes were to be destroyed, and done away with forever. On many things we no longer look through a dark glass, but can read our NT covenant with so much clearness that those OT saints could. 

Now, that being said, would you like me to give you many proofs that what is recorded for us in verses 5-30 is without questioning, could never have been fulfilled in 70. A.D.?  Beside, Paul and John took Jesus' words from his understanding of Daniel, and they both applied them to the latter days just before Jesus' coming again and this world passing away with fervent heat.  Would you like to have proof, and if provided, will you prove to me that my interpretation is not correct, with proof of your own? 
« Last Edit: Sat May 14, 2016 - 15:17:10 by RB »

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #56 on: Fri May 27, 2016 - 00:00:31 »
As I understand it, history records that each and every stone of the temple was thrown down as the Roman armies made sure to collect every bit of gold therein. In this, Jesus' words were fulfilled literally in the siege.
A few thoughts for you to consider: Remember I said these words:
Quote
Beside, dear soul, the OVERALL context of Matthew 24 takes us far past 70 A.D. and can be interpreted with Daniel 7-12; 2nd Thess. 2; Revelation 7-20, just as dpr said:
There is so much in Matthew 24,25 that will not give us any support in trying to limit~"one stones left upon another to 70 A.D."  That's my main reason of rejecting the 70 A. D. theory, and a theory it is. Jesus spoke of many things following verses 2,3, of Matthew 24 that clearly takes us to the last days of the church age and the great tribulation that shall plague the outward professing church of Jesus Christ. History shall indeed repeat itself~just as Israel in Jeremiah's days suffered greatly spiritually as far as embracing the true worship of their God and spirituality was at a all time low, so shall the Gentiles churches follow suite and will apostate from God and will be taken over by the same spirit of Mystery Babylon! There are much in verses 5-30 of Matthew 24, that will not allow you to limit it to 70 A.D. Personally, I care less what happened in 70 A.D. since the scriptures said nothing about it and history at best are mixed with lies. Were you there in 70 A.D.? Neither was I. But, we both have God's word that is totally silence concerning that time period; vain men have labored endlessly trying to use that time period to twist and pervert God's word, namely because of the sound bites in the scriptures available at their finger tips, which God put there to allow men to be deceived who were ordained to this condemnation, just as Jude spoke of!   

When the "fullness of time" had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, and made under the law, to redeem them that were under its curse, that we might receive the adoption of sons. His eternal purpose had reach another level of unfolding his eternal mysteries, one being that the two (Jews and Gentiles) shall become ONE in Jesus Christ.  All of the OT~ people,(Israel after the flesh)  worship, and its temple, were only meant to be temporary until  God's hidden mysteries could run their courses, and once that happen after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then those weak and beggarly temporary substitutes were to be destroyed, and done away with forever. On many things we no longer look through a dark glass, but can read our NT covenant with so much clearness that those OT saints could. 

Now, that being said, would you like me to give you many proofs that what is recorded for us in verses 5-30 is without questioning, could never have been fulfilled in 70. A.D.?  Beside, Paul and John took Jesus' words from his understanding of Daniel, and they both applied them to the latter days just before Jesus' coming again and this world passing away with fervent heat.  Would you like to have proof, and if provided, will you prove to me that my interpretation is not correct, with proof of your own?

Hi Red,

My apologies for taking so long to reply, life has been very busy and stressful lately. When I said Jesus' words were fulfilled in the siege, I was referring to the words he spoke in Matthew 24:2:

"Do you see all these things?… Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another: every one will be thrown down."



I simply believe he meant it when he said that every stone of that temple would be thrown down. I believe the Romans did just that. I do not believe the Western Wall was ever part of the temple. It standing today does not make the prophecy unfulfilled. I realize we will not come to an agreement on this, and I am not in a position (time wise) right now to debate the entire chapter. However, I would like to see the proof you offer if you would like to give it.

I will say that in order to find sufficient evidence that the events in Matthew 24 took place in the first century, one would have to read historical accounts of the wars and accept that the "end of the age" and his "parousia" is synonymous with the desolation of Jerusalem and said temple. Also one would have to accept that the events are not always literal (i.e. the stars of heaven falling) and must first consider the apocalyptic language of the OT in reference to past judgments.
« Last Edit: Fri May 27, 2016 - 00:05:22 by raggthyme13 »

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #57 on: Fri May 27, 2016 - 03:59:06 »
I would like to add that I do not necessarily disregard a future coming of Christ. I hope for it, actually. This world is really ripe for judgment. But I cannot in all honesty say I find such a coming in the word of God, one that does not relate to that particular desolation. I just cannot see it.

Offline Tertullian

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #58 on: Fri Aug 26, 2016 - 08:22:00 »
I would like to add that I do not necessarily disregard a future coming of Christ. I hope for it, actually. This world is really ripe for judgment. But I cannot in all honesty say I find such a coming in the word of God, one that does not relate to that particular desolation. I just cannot see it.

The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement.  But, we won't see Jesus until after we die. 

Offline RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #59 on: Fri Aug 26, 2016 - 08:57:45 »
Quote
The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement. 
I'm leaving to go to a wedding in N.C.~I would love for you to come back to this thread and discuss a few things with me, if you are so sure you are correct. I'll be back Monday, the Lord willing. Matthew 24 is CONNECTED with Matthew 25 and is ONE discourse, covering ONE SUBJECT, and should NOT be separated; and I will not allow you, or any Perterist, or Historic person to try to separate the two.
Quote
But, we won't see Jesus until after we die.
Not totally true~some will NEVER taste of death, but will be living when Jesus SHALL return for the SECOND time to gather together his own, and to destroyed the wicked.

Offline Tertullian

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #60 on: Wed Aug 31, 2016 - 05:46:40 »
I'm leaving to go to a wedding in N.C.~I would love for you to come back to this thread and discuss a few things with me, if you are so sure you are correct. I'll be back Monday, the Lord willing.

The Lord may have been willing, but RB own will has failed.  Monday has come and gone. 

Quote
Not totally true~some will NEVER taste of death, but will be living when Jesus SHALL return for the SECOND time to gather together his own, and to destroyed the wicked.

Never taste death?  But, First Corinthians chapter 15 says "all die" and that all have to die.  As if talking to Rapture believers, Paul says, "You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies."

There's no use of the phrase "not taste death" in the Bible that refers to avoiding the death of the body.

Offline RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #61 on: Wed Aug 31, 2016 - 06:28:15 »
The Lord may have been willing, but RB own will has failed.  Monday has come and gone.
Okay, I forgot~ but do not take that as though I cannot answer you. I'm short on time, but I will not forget in morning, and even may have time later today, not sure as of yet.
Quote
There's no use of the phrase "not taste death" in the Bible that refers to avoiding the death of the body.
In the mean time:
Quote
1st Thessalonians 4:16,17~ "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now, I'm sure men like you will labor to try to say that this was fulfilled in 70 A.D.~ but I can assure you that your efforts will be proven to be fruitless and a lie.
« Last Edit: Wed Aug 31, 2016 - 06:32:16 by RB »

Offline Tertullian

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #62 on: Wed Aug 31, 2016 - 17:35:18 »
Quote
1st Thessalonians 4:16,17~ "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now, I'm sure men like you will labor to try to say that this was fulfilled in 70 A.D.~ but I can assure you that your efforts will be proven to be fruitless and a lie.

I can see why some people might believe in a Rapture from 1Thess4.  But, it doesn't stand up to close examination.  The Bible says "all die" and that we can't have heavenly bodies without this body first dying. 

1Thess4 :16-17 in context means those left alive will eventually die and be reunited with loved ones who have already died.  The phrase "remain alive" is a reference to the living, not an assertion that the Thessalonians wouldn't die.  The comfort Paul speaks of is being reunited, not avoiding death.

If Paul had told the Thessalonians that they had a hope of avoiding death, Paul lied, because they all died and God had no plans to Rapture them.  The Rapture is a false hope, and therefor a lie. 

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #63 on: Fri Oct 28, 2016 - 09:09:18 »
The reason us saints who are reborn in the Spirit of God do not taste death anymore is because we learn our flesh is not our true reality and that death is only an illusion that won't be remembered when we awaken in the New Heaven and Earth within Paradise. Without ever experiencing death in the New generation ( New Heaven and Earth ) and not remembering life in the Old Heaven and Earth, we won't understand what death is.

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18: But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

Offline dpr

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #64 on: Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 09:29:26 »

The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement.  But, we won't see Jesus until after we die.

Well no, the "abomination of desolation" actually has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple.

It has to do with placing an idol abomination in a standing temple in Jerusalem and bowing in worship to it. This very thing Antiochus IV did in 165-170 B.C. as an example for it.

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #65 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 12:34:00 »
Quote
1st Thessalonians 4:16,17~ "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now, I'm sure men like you will labor to try to say that this was fulfilled in 70 A.D.~ but I can assure you that your efforts will be proven to be fruitless and a lie.

I can see why some people might believe in a Rapture from 1Thess4.  But, it doesn't stand up to close examination.  The Bible says "all die" and that we can't have heavenly bodies without this body first dying. 

1Thess4 :16-17 in context means those left alive will eventually die and be reunited with loved ones who have already died.  The phrase "remain alive" is a reference to the living, not an assertion that the Thessalonians wouldn't die.  The comfort Paul speaks of is being reunited, not avoiding death.

If Paul had told the Thessalonians that they had a hope of avoiding death, Paul lied, because they all died and God had no plans to Rapture them.  The Rapture is a false hope, and therefor a lie.

I'm sorry, but you simply sound like someone who hasn't yet really read all of the NT Bible of what Apostle Paul actually said.

The 'change' at the "twinkling of an eye" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 is about that 1 Thess.4 event some call a 'rapture'. I mostly use the simple idea of a gathering to Christ, since the word rapture is not used in the KJV and is too often associated with the false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of John Darby.

In Matt.24:29-31 Jesus showed the asleep saints gathered from heaven. And in Mark 13:24-27 Jesus showed the saints still alive on earth gathered to Him from the earth. Both examples cover Paul's Message in 1 Thess.4 about Christ Jesus gathering two different groups of saints on the day of His coming.

So that coming is NOT about a judgment, it is about a GATHERING TO CHRIST JESUS. And I dare you to say that is not about a gathering to Christ!

Online Jaime

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #66 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 12:36:41 »

The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement.  But, we won't see Jesus until after we die.

Well no, the "abomination of desolation" actually has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple.

It has to do with placing an idol abomination in a standing temple in Jerusalem and bowing in worship to it. This very thing Antiochus IV did in 165-170 B.C. as an example for it.

Sounds like the Muslim Dome of the Rock or the Al Aqsa Mosque.

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #67 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 12:50:13 »

The abomination that causes desolation is something which is connected to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.  So, you're right, this has nothing to do with a future coming of Christ.  You're also right that this world is ripe for judgement.  But, we won't see Jesus until after we die.

Well no, the "abomination of desolation" actually has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple.

It has to do with placing an idol abomination in a standing temple in Jerusalem and bowing in worship to it. This very thing Antiochus IV did in 165-170 B.C. as an example for it.

Sounds like the Muslim Dome of the Rock or the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Have you never read Ezekiel 8 & 9? Just because it's something written in the OT prophets still does not mean it is history yet.

When the final beast kingdom is established over all nations for the end of this world, and the beast king comes to sit upon a throne in Jerusalem over it all, then you will learn what the actual meaning of Daniel's "abomination of desolation" phrase is.

The globalist's plans for a "one world government" isn't over just yet. Even someone like Trump won't be able to stop it, because God has ordained it for the end of this world.

Even in my many years I have seen more persecution of Christians in the western nations that I never saw in my youth. That is fulfilling what Jesus and His Apostles told us would happen for the end of this world.

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #68 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 13:03:22 »
Look at some of the numbers of Revelation and Daniel as to days being prophetic days, and the Dome of the Rock fits exceptionally well. And the temple mount IS and has been desolate ever since the Muslim desolation. In my opinion, Islam IS the beast, and Mohammed is his false prophet. The caliphate (Ottoman empire) was destroyed by the British but is now trying to resurrect itself from it fatal head wound.

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #69 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 13:41:15 »
Look at some of the numbers of Revelation and Daniel as to days being prophetic days, and the Dome of the Rock fits exceptionally well. And the temple mount IS and has been desolate ever since the Muslim desolation. In my opinion, Islam IS the beast, and Mohammed is his false prophet. The caliphate (Ottoman empire) was destroyed by the British but is now trying to resurrect itself from it fatal head wound.

The meaning of the "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel is NOT... about a destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. It's about the placing of an idol abomination inside the temple that desolates it spiritually. The AOD event requires... a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem. What Antiochus IV did in 170-165 B.C. is a blueprint for it. This is why in Matt.24 Jesus warned of the future "abomination of desolation" in conjunction with the coming of a pseud-Christ (KJV "false Christs" = pseudochristos in the Greek).

The only time I use the days = type of conversion thing is with the actual Scripture that is given with it. In Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, the days for years we are told what they are, with a final period of 7 still remaining, so really there's no guesswork nor does it point to the Dome of the Rock mosque.

Daniel 11 is a continuation of the final "one week" prophecy. And in Daniel 11 we are shown about animal sacrifices starting up again with a "vile person" coming to power using flatteries with a small group of people. Then he will end the daily sacrifice and instead place the abomination that makes desolate (an idol in the temple desolating it).

That will involve a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The Muslims would never... allow animal sacrifices in the Dome of the Rock. Their's is not like Jewish old testament history. The Jews today are preparing to build their temple, have the materials ready, and have been preparing the Levitical priesthood and temple artifacts (see Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful website).