Author Topic: This Generation~Matthew 24:34  (Read 4655 times)

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Online Jaime

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #70 on: Mon Feb 13, 2017 - 13:57:59 »
I didn't say it was about the temple's destruction. The Dome of the Rock is and has been an abomination on the site and to the world for centuries, leaving the site Desolate of the one true God, as it were.

As to the days I spoke of, think 1335. from the 7th century construction of the Dome, especially lunar years as was the reckoning of the time of the writing.

Offline dpr

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #71 on: Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 08:32:07 »
I didn't say it was about the temple's destruction. The Dome of the Rock is and has been an abomination on the site and to the world for centuries, leaving the site Desolate of the one true God, as it were.

As to the days I spoke of, think 1335. from the 7th century construction of the Dome, especially lunar years as was the reckoning of the time of the writing.

It's impossible to miss the false worship created by the coming Antichrist ("little horn" or "vile person") given in Daniel, and further outlined by our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:23-26, and by Paul in 2 Thess.2:4, and by John in Rev.13:11 forward. Sticking to God's Word on that means there's no way to come to a conclusion that the "abomination of desolation" is about a foreign shrine located on the temple mount while the Jewish temple is gone.

Dan 11:30-31
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

Online Jaime

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #72 on: Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 08:51:47 »
I disagree. What is your thoughts on the 1290 days and the 1335 days in Daniel 12: 11-12?
« Last Edit: Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 08:56:22 by Jaime »

Offline dpr

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #73 on: Tue Feb 14, 2017 - 09:28:26 »
I disagree. What is your thoughts on the 1290 days and the 1335 days in Daniel 12: 11-12?

Dan 12:11-12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
KJV


Pretty simple actually. When the daily sacrifice is ended and the abomination idol is setup in the middle of Daniel's final "one week" of Dan.9:27, (meaning after the first half of the 7 year period or after 1260 days). The 1290 days is the second half of the "one week", a period of 1260 days + 30 days. And the 1335 days is 45 more days after that.

I believe the 1335 days are when those in Christ are blessed involving Christ's de facto 1,000 years reign on earth after His 2nd coming, those being the only ones found alive that waited for His literal return. I believe the 30 days involve the cleansing of the sanctuary per Dan.8:14.


What The Abomination of Desolation Is Really About:

Dan 11:23
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV


That "vile person" who comes to power in Jerusalem will work deceits among a "small people" meaning a small group of leaders. This "league" will be the 7 years peace agreement looked for by Bible scholars. It will involve the re-establishing for the Jews in Jerusalem the Old Covenant worship involving another Jewish temple, the Levitical priesthood, and animal sacrifices, as these verses will show.


Dan 11:28
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
KJV


The vile person (Antichrist) will be against "the holy covenant", which for the orthodox unbelieving Jews means the Old Covenant they believe they are still under today.


Dan 11:30-36
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.


Then he will forsake the re-established Old Covenant, end the daily sacrifice requirement under that Old Covenant, and then instead place an idol abomination in the Jewish temple to be worshipped instead.


31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

That "pollute" idea is actually what the 'desolation' idea is about involving the temple (or sanctuary here). That abomination idol that is placed inside the temple will pollute it, make it spiritually desolate. (This very thing Antiochus IV did in the second temple in Jerusalem in 170-165 B.C., placing an idol to Zeus in it after having sacrificed swine upon the altar.)


32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

It must be remembered that the scribes of Israel were the Kenites of the lands of Canaan (1 Chron.2:55). They were foreigners. Also, the Canaanites which Israel was not able to destroy became temple servants and eventually worked their way into the priesthood as Nethinims and priests. Thus by the time of Jesus, the scribes and Pharisees had become corrupted. Most likely that's who these are that will do wickedly against the covenant, and will support Antichrist.


33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
KJV


That is what the Antichrist is to do, exalt himself as God sitting in the "temple of God" in Jerusalem, and exalt himself over all that called God, or that is worshipped (2 Thess.2:4).


Offline lea

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #74 on: Mon May 08, 2017 - 11:56:16 »

Red Baker,  There is no debating what Jesus said to His disciples unless you change the meaning of His words and grammar.

Your opening sentence settles THIS debate!

Matthew 24:34

     .  "Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Do you know what Jesus was talking about, and about who, or do you think He was talking to ghosts when He said "some of you standing here shall not taste death until all these things be fulfilled." ? 

Gosh, it's so plain, I don't know why some Christians create a fantasy when trying to understand the Bible.



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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #74 on: Mon May 08, 2017 - 11:56:16 »



Online RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #75 on: Mon May 08, 2017 - 15:36:56 »
Red Baker,  There is no debating what Jesus said to His disciples unless you change the meaning of His words and grammar.

Your opening sentence settles THIS debate!

Matthew 24:34

     .  "Verily, I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."



Stay around for awhile and let us see the true meaning of THIS generation!
Quote
Do you know what Jesus was talking about, and about who, or do you think He was talking to ghosts when He said "some of you standing here shall not taste death until all these things be fulfilled." ? 

Gosh, it's so plain,
It is ONLY plain to him that understandeth!
Quote
I don't know why some Christians create a fantasy when trying to understand the Bible.
Then why are you doing so? The CONTEXT of Matthew 24 reveals to us just how we should interpret THIS generation. He that HATH ears let HIM HEAR!

Jesus was very carefully choosing his words as he gives to us his final message before leaving this earth.

I'm here, not going anywhere unless God takes me home to be with him. I'm armed and ready, make sure your sword is sharp, you will need it. 
« Last Edit: Mon May 08, 2017 - 15:41:27 by RB »

Offline lea

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #76 on: Mon May 08, 2017 - 16:51:43 »

I'm sorry, but did you make a point?

"stay around for awhile"  And analyze two words?  Now that sounds bizarre, to put it nicely. All you said was "he who has ears"

I can read too.  ::doh::

Offline notreligus

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #77 on: Mon May 08, 2017 - 17:28:19 »
RB, if I were you I'd just ignore someone who has nothing but sarcasm to offer.

Online RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #78 on: Tue May 09, 2017 - 03:09:36 »
RB, if I were you I'd just ignore someone who has nothing but sarcasm to offer.
You are right, I'm not going to cast the pearls of truth before swines

Online RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #79 on: Tue May 09, 2017 - 03:24:31 »
This generation is the very same people that John called Gog and Magog in Revelation 20. Go here and consider:
Quote
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/gog-magog/180/
Also connected with this thread would be this one:
Quote
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/gleaning-in-matthew-24/

Online RB

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #80 on: Tue May 09, 2017 - 03:34:58 »
Here's a very short article on This generation~mine are over fifty pages, but this one can be read in five minutes or less.

This Generation Shall Not Pass, Till All These Things be Fulfilled.............By Tony Warren


    Matthew chapter 24 has been a very difficult chapter for many people to understand, and one of the questions that I frequently receive about it, is in regard to verse 34:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Many who understand that this Chapter speaks of later day occurrences, are puzzled as to what generation this verse is speaking of. But something which is not well known is that there are several ways in which this word generation is used in scripture. There is the literal family generation, the family generation of evil, and the family generation of Christ. Three very distinct applications of this word.

Another point worthy of note is that scripture has always dated itself by Patriarch fathers. Even to this day we date this way (probably without even giving it much thought). For whenever someone says that, "this is the year 1999," we are dating by the Patriarch reference, Christ (though not accurately). In other words, we are saying that we are living 1,999 years after the birth of of Christ (AD, anno domini, or the year of our Lord). He is the Patriarch reference by which most of the world dates today. This is a biblical and historical practice which goes back to the beginning, and is explained in depth in the paper on the Biblical timeline. So this year is a Patriarch family reference.

The word translated Generation in the New Testament is [genea] or [genos] which means a 'family or kin.' By implication it can also mean a period of a their family, or offspring. For example, someone saying something occurred in the 4th generation, would be telling us that it happened in the period of the family of the 4th born child. It is illustrating a particular family relationship to the Patriarch reference. Understanding this, we can see how God uses the word Generation in scripture to signify not only the family of God, but the family of the adversary, the devil. This is easily proven. Children of God, and children of Satan are two diverse generations. And the way the Generation of evil is applied in scripture, makes it synonymous with the children (or family) of the Devil. It does not refer to an immediate family group only, but all in that families' patriarchal relationship throughout time. Just as the Children of God refer to the whole family of God, which is a chosen generation throughout time, and not just people living at the time in which it was spoken.

John 8:44

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Jesus is clearly elucidating that they are part of a particular spiritual family group, and identifies their father as the devil, a murderer from the beginning. Satan is the Patriarch reference for their generation, and he has many children, and not just these who Christ was immediately speaking to. All those under Satan's control are the generation or family of evil. His children which existed from the beginning, and which are under the judgment of God. They are the spiritual offspring of their Patriarch reference, that old Serpent (Satan). The phrase 'generation of vipers' identifies only that family group who serve their father Satan, not everyone in that physical time period.

Matthew 12:32-35

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
 

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
 

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
 

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."
This generation of vipers is not the Apostles, not John the Baptist, not Mary, Elizabeth, or the Church, it is the unregenerate 'family' of evil who cannot escape the damnation of Hell.

It is self evident that if this word meant that physical generation were all vipers who couldn't escape the damnation of hell, then it would mean all, including the Apostles who themselves were part of that 'time generation.' But obviously, Christ is not talking about all that physical generation, He is talking about those who are children of Satan, these are the generation of vipers (Psalms 140:1-3). Evil and wicked men who out of the evil in their hearts bring forth evil things. And so we see that there is not only precedence for the word generation not to be understood to mean that particular time, but many times the context itself demands it not be understood that way. Generation of vipers did not mean everyone there, so it could not mean that physical Generation. It is most obviously speaking about a spiritually wicked family [gennema], not a time period or literal generation there.

We should not lose sight of the fact that in order for the 'All' to be fulfilled in that generation which Christ spoke about in Matthew 24, the time He refers to must be at the end of the world/age. When we study the context and content of Matthew 24, it becomes abundantly clear that this end time is what God is referring to.

Matthew 24:3

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Of course we are well aware of the Preterist claim that the end of the age was in 70 A.D., but that is a Biblically untenable position. The proponents of this theory come to this conclusion by selectively interpreting age/world [aion], and then arbitrarily making the supposition that there was an end of the age in 70 A.D. This, despite the fact that there is absolutely no Biblical warrant for declaring 70 A.D. the end of an Age. Not one scripture makes that claim! And while they insist Matthew 24 (the end of the world) is a mistranslation of the word [aion], which means age, they are still unable to coherently explain verses like:

Luke 18:30

"Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting".
This is the exact same Greek word [aion], meaning world/age. If that present time Jesus spoke in was before 70 A.D., (Jesus spoke this before the cross) is when they received manifold more, and the age to come is Eternal life for them, then obviously 70 A.D. being the coming next age (according to their theory), must have been the age of eternal life Jesus spoke of. But did Life Everlasting start in 70 A.D? No, not at all. The theory is bankrupt! Jesus is obviously speaking not about an alleged age to come in 70 A.D., but about the end of the world/age when He would return and "all" would be fulfilled. That is that world or age to come when we would receive the everlasting life.

This doctrine is confused on many fronts, because there was never any Biblical foundation for making such a prophecy in the first place. Reformed or Biblical Theology must be established on biblical foundations. Of necessity these Theologians would have to place another age in between the cross, and the end of the world, in effect splitting the New Testament period into diverse ages. In essence, the last days, and then the last, last days, because their position on 70 A.D. is untenable without it. However, it is also unbiblical with it!

In matthew 24 God is warning not only the disciples about false teachers, but the Churches throughout time. The Bible isn't just written for those it is addressed to. That is our basic fundamental truth. The Book of Thessalonians is addressed to the Thessalonians, but is written to all the Church, throughout time. The Book of Romans is written to the Romans, but is for the Church, throughout Time. When Jesus told the disciples to do this in remembrance of Him (Communion) it was not simply talking to them, but to the Church, throughout time. This is simply basic hermeneutics and sound exegesis! Likewise, when Jesus said this generation shall not pass till 'all these things' be fulfilled, He was talking to all of the Church throughout time. We will always have false prophets, we will always have wars, we will always have the wicked, because we will always have the generation of evil. ..at least until, 'all is Fulfilled!'

Let's review the context of Matthew 24 for our answer to the question of the generation. Jesus is warning the disciples (and us all) about the coming wickedness (Particularly of those who call themselves of Christ), and how they will come 'as wolves in sheep's clothing,' as false prophets, as false Christ's, with all the signs so clever that it would deceive even the Chosen (Elect) if it were possible. He tells us to watch, for these are the signs that will alert us of His soon Coming. And He says this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled. Note carefully that He says not some, but 'All.' And the only generation which shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled (e.g., false Prophets, nation against nation, abomination of desolation, Gospel preached to the world for a witness, The Great tribulation, the sun be darkened, the moon not giving light, the stars falling from heaven, powers of heaven being shaken, the Son of man coming on the clouds of Glory, etc.), is the Generation of evil. A physical generation will pass, and indeed has passed, and we still have these things. But the generation of evil, producing false Christs', a family of vipers, will be on this earth until Christ returns on the clouds of Glory and all is fulfilled! Every family apart! And this generation of evil will be the family which shall be Judged of God.

Luke 11:50

"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;"
Is all those people standing there (the physical generation) guilty of the blood of all the Prophets, and will be judged of God for it? God Forbid! The Apostles and all believers there won't have the Blood of the Prophets required of them. That is quite obvious to anyone who knows scripture. God says every man is responsible only for his own sin, not the sins of others Deuteronomy 24:16). Which is why The Blood of these prophets will be required of 'that generation.' ..How? Because Those who killed the Prophets, though they lived hundreds of years before, were part of 'that Generation.' They are part of the family of Satan their father, for the generation of evil spans time.

This couldn't either logically, rationally, or Biblically mean everyone physically there at the time, so what it does mean should be evident with a little thought. It is a kinship of evil. Those of the lineage of Satan. Jesus called them, 'Children of the Devil.' Moreover, let's be clear that this phrase I use (Generation of evil) is not something that I privately dreamed up to support my generation views, it is one which God Himself elucidated upon. It's the Word of God itself:

Luke 11:29

"And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet".
Was Christ speaking of the Apostles or the 70? No, He wasn't talking about the physical generation of that time here, anymore than He was in Matthew chapter 24. He indeed has given signs to the family of God (Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:4), but He was talking about a specific evil people (particularly of the congregation) who were evil and looked for miracles, signs, and wonders. In Matthew 12:24 Jesus calls them a 'generation' of vipers who cannot escape the damnation of Hell. If we're only to understand the word generation to mean those living there at the time (as some insist we must), then none of the Apostles or anyone else could escape the damnation of hell. But the truth is a lot more simple and in agreement will 'all' of scripture. It is that the generation of evil which cannot escape, and it is those children of Satan. It is the Reprobates, the exact opposites of the Christian family. Christians are called a Chosen Generation. Ask yourself, "How then can the people living at the time be both called of God, a Chosen Generation, and a generation that cannot escape the damnation of hell?" Simple, they are two separate families. Would we say everyone living there at the time must be part of that chosen generation, because someone arrogantly insists the word Generation demands it? Of course not. The 'Chosen Generation' is the family of God, selected by God. It's not everyone, and it's not merely those in that physical time period only.

1st Peter 2:9

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
Here we see the "truth" of the matter. We have two distinct generations coexisting at the same time. A Generation of Evil, and a Chosen Generation. They don't last simply a lifetime, they last until Christ returns. One shall not escape the damnation of Hell, and the other is a special people who shall escape the damnation of Hell. A classic illustration of exactly this concept is found in the book of Luke, chapter 16:

Luke 16:8

"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light".
The wicked, in their generation? The wicked in their family are wiser than the 'children of Light.' i.e., Children of God verses Children of the Devil. Two Generations. Again, therein is our answer! This is the generation which the Lord was warning the Church against in Matthew chapter 24, was it not? The family or Children of this world. Their Generation is that which shall not pass until 'ALL' be fulfilled. Comparing scripture with scripture, it would be ludicrous for anyone to insist that the word generation always means a physical (at that present time) generation, considering all the pertinent scriptures. Yet there are many who choose to make such untenable statements.

We know certain things for sure. Number one, While some make this claim that the end of the age was at 70 A.D., there is not one single scripture that supports such a conclusion, and many which preclude it. There is a new dispensation when Christ died and was resurrected, but no new age in 70 A.D. Number two, there is nothing in scripture which says the word generation must always be understood as those physical people at the time, and much of scripture which precludes it (as I've clearly shown). Number three, there is abundant proof texts in scripture that the entire New Testament period was (and still is) the end times, the last days, the last age, 'indicating' that there would not be any other age following this one 'except' it be the age to Come (Christ's return and everlasting life). That's when "ALL" will be fulfilled, as required by Matthew 24 and indeed all of scripture. That is when this evil generation shall pass (post millennialism notwithstanding), and the kingdom delivered up to the father, and righteousness be over all. For all this tribulation and evil has not passed, and all has not been fulfilled. That will occur at 'The last Day.'

Revelation 6:11

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
When will all be fulfilled? When this evil generation is no longer ruling with the prince of this world. In other words, when Christ returns! There is no age in between. That's the whole purpose of God using the terms 'last days.' There are no more days after these 'last' days, no more dispensations, no more ages. Else Paul would have spoken of being in the next-to-the-last days. It is self evident that contrary to interpretive license, the last days started at the Cross, not in 70 A.d., and the age to come is when Christ returns. No new age was occurred in 70 A.D. The generation which will not pass till all be fulfilled, is the generation which the whole Chapter of 24 warned of. In context, the false prophets, false teachers, deceivers, false Christs', abomination, tribulation, and all that this evil generation brings forth, will not pass until Christ's return. Then, and only then, will 'ALL' be Fulfilled, as required of the prophecy of matthew 24.

Peace,
 

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #81 on: Tue May 09, 2017 - 14:38:12 »
RB  -  I hesitate to put a reply in this particular debate forum, simply because I dislike anything that would seem to run counter to Paul's instructions in II Timothy that "the servant of God must not strive..."  However, there were many things I found troubling about the last post you gave with Tony Warren's comments.  Having read elsewhere his rather strange definition of what he thinks scripture means by the word "begat" when making chronologies from the Bible's genealogical records, I'm on guard when I read anything else he writes.

For one thing, RB, why are you quoting someone else's work as an authority on this present subject, when you have soundly (and correctly) stated on many occasions that scripture is your key foundation?  Moreover, this source is attempting to use Greek to bolster his points, which is something that you have criticized before on this forum.  Why are you now utilizing this method vicariously by using Mr. Warren's comments for your argument?

This gentleman's short study here makes a mistake, from the very start - almost the same mistake that Scofield made.  Tony Warren lumps the definition of "GENOS" and "GENEA" together, as if they meant the exact same thing.  They don't.  Scofield intentionally switched the two different Greek words in his margin notes for the word "generation", claiming that "genea" meant "offspring".  It doesn't.  "GENOS" is the word for "offspring", just as it is used in Acts 17:28 (KJV), "As certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring" (genos).

Scripture uses the word "genea" as we would use it to describe, for example, "the hippie generation", or "the greatest generation", or the "generation X" - all of which are anchored to a specific TIME PERIOD.  Scripture gives us its own guideline as to how long a time period it considers a (genea) generation to be, and it is roughly 40 years.  (Psalms 95:10 cp. Hebrews 3:9-10)  "Forty years long was I grieved with this generation...", compared with, "...when your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works FORTY YEARS.  Wherefore I was grieved with THAT GENERATION (genea) and said, They do always err in their heart, and they have not known my ways."

"That generation" was composed of the fathers and their young children that initially came out of Egypt.  There was also another generation (genea) of forty-years duration between the start of Christ's ministry in AD 30 until AD 70.  This is when God did another generational purge before the true Israel of God entered the "promised land" of the stand-alone New Covenant Age.  Why else do you think Christ refers to the "great city" of Jerusalem in Rev. 11:8  in the spiritual sense as "Sodom and EGYPT", and tells His people to "Come out of her"?

In your post, Tony Warren mistakenly claims that "there is not one scripture making [the] claim" that AD 70 represented the end of an Age (aion).  It does.  Is he forgetting entirely Peter's statement in I Peter 4:7 (KJV) that "THE END OF ALL THINGS IS AT HAND" when he wrote that book shortly before his martyrdom in AD 67?  What twisted process does anyone's brain have to go through to re-define Christ's words in Matt. 16:28, Mk. 9:1, etc.?  Christ said then that some of those very ones standing in front of Him at that moment would not "taste of death" before they saw Him coming in His kingdom with power.  That defines the extent of the generation that would see this to the limits of a man's ordinary lifespan.  Likewise, if the church in Thyatira was told to hold fast till He came, (Rev. 2:25), does that not patently prove that this church would be around to see His coming in their generation's (genea) experience during their lifetime?

If you have been paying attention to posts I have already submitted, RB, you know quite well that I hold to scripture's proof of not only a second, bodily coming of Christ to that first-century generation (genea) in AD 70, but also a THIRD, bodily coming of Christ to close out our New Covenant Age.  We are NOT given a choice of EITHER an AD 70 coming OR a future coming.  Scripture presents it as a case of "BOTH / AND" concerning Christ's anticipated returns.

I would welcome the chance to read your 50 pages on the subject of what a generation is, RB.  However, do you really think it should take that much ink to prove the point you're trying to make?  God's usual practice is to hide things from the wise and prudent and reveal them unto babes.  The presentation of this subject need not take reams of paper to explain it at a child's level, as we all are before God.  God put these things on the lowest shelf so that His children of that generation could easily reach them and profit by them in their time.

Another slip by Tony Warren: in Matthew 12:24, the KJV generically describes a "generation of vipers", but more precisely, the Greek term is "genemmata" - translated "brood" or "offspring" of vipers, which includes no reference to a TIME PERIOD at all.  So his point goes astray when he ridicules anyone linking the apostles along with that "generation of vipers" not escaping the damnation of hell (which is really Gehenna).

He also errs when he says there are "no more ages" after Christ's final return at the close of history.  Not so.  In Ephesians 2:7, from the time Paul wrote those words, he spoke of "THE AGES (plural) THAT ARE COMING".  That means at least TWO AGES coming after the one Paul was then occupying.  Consequently, that describes two ages after AD 70's "END OF ALL THINGS".  The first of those two ages is the one we are now in, when the New Covenant alone is presently in place.  It contains no dying remnants of the Old Covenant still hanging around, "ready to pass away", as in Paul's day (Heb. 8:13). 

It also proves there is an age of some kind to come AFTER the one in which we are currently sitting.  This not only refutes Tony Warren's claim, but it also refutes those Full-preterists who incorrectly state that there is no closure to this present age - only endless procreation, with no conclusion in sight for human history.  Instead, Christ's THIRD COMING will occur in our future just before that next age is launched - the one of which Paul spoke.  And if anyone has an issue with a doctrine based on the plural case of the word "ages", they will have to take that up with the Apostle Paul, who made much of the word "Seed" versus the word "seeds" on another occasion.

Tony Warren may have thought his article was a tight argument, but I found it full of holes.  You should resume giving your own thoughts on this instead, RB.  At least that way there is some direct interaction possible.



Offline notreligus

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #82 on: Tue May 09, 2017 - 15:11:56 »
The Full Preterist:   Don't bother me with the facts.  Revelation was written before A.D. 70.  We ignore the description of Revelation as a prophecy and we ignore the words of the Lord Himself who says that there are things "that are to take place after this."   We can ignore the majority of the Scriptures because anyone who looks beyond A.D. 70 has not become enlightened with the Preterist esoteric knowledge.  God is now on Sabbatical leave and we can take comfort in that He has done all that He needs to do.   

The Full Dispensational:   Don't bother me with the facts.   During the thousand-year Messianic Kingdom there will be a new Temple in Jerusalem and Jesus will step down from the throne and become one of us; but He will be the high priest and will reinstate animal sacrifices as a memorial to Himself and His sacrificial death.    Israel will be restored to the nation she was before God divorced her and Israel will then receive her earthly blessings.   The Gentiles will have been God's bride from the time of the rapture until He returns to set up His Messianic kingdom.   He will leave the Gentiles in Heaven with their heavenly blessings as He returns to the Earth as the Jewish Messiah.   

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #83 on: Tue May 09, 2017 - 15:38:47 »
RB  -  I hesitate to put a reply in this particular debate forum, simply because I dislike anything that would seem to run counter to Paul's instructions in II Timothy that "the servant of God must not strive..."
Well, you are welcome to bring what you believe to be the truth. But, I have determined not to debate with you UNTIL you reveal yourself to me, and if you insist not to do it, then I have not one thing to say to you. You claim to have been in my house and sat with me in the house of God, yet will not reveal yourself to me...THAT'S CREEPY! You are a smart man, tell me,
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What defines a person as creepy?
Exactly what you are doing!

Now, concerning TW's article....even though I may not agree with him on going to the Greek, which I DO NOT, I still rejoice in the truth that he teaches, which is much more than what you do.

Reveal yourself, or go away. Reveal yourself, and I WILL answer your post here, which would be an easy thing for me to do.

One more thing:
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For one thing, RB, why are you quoting someone else's work as an authority on this present subject, when you have soundly (and correctly) stated on many occasions that scripture is your key foundation?
I DID NOT quote TW's article as an authority on the subject, but only gave another brother's understanding of which I totally agree with.
« Last Edit: Tue May 09, 2017 - 15:42:03 by RB »

Offline lea

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #84 on: Wed May 10, 2017 - 16:00:33 »

This or That?

Matthew 23:29,

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.


Do Jews kill and crucify in modern times?

Or is Jesus referring to His apostles and disciples during that 40 year period?  ( a generation according to Exodus)

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #85 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 04:34:58 »
This or That?

Matthew 23:29,

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.[/color][/color]

Do Jews kill and crucify in modern times?

Or is Jesus referring to His apostles and disciples during that 40 year period?  ( a generation according to Exodus)
Anyone can kill and crucify Christ afresh.
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Hebrews 6:6~"If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
But, the point is truly a moot point~truly not an issue open to argument; an irrelevant question.

Nevertheless, the  scriptures you quoted proves our understanding of the phrase THIS generqtion as always used by Jesus. A couple of points before we consider Matthew 23 which is just before Matthew 24:34. The word of God defines words for us, not Webster, Oxford English dictionary, etc. God is his own interpreter of the words he has chosen to use to reveal hidden truths to us. We MUST follow his lead, period and trust him for light upon the subject we are considering. That being said, this does not mean we do not read such dictionaries to guide us with understanding the primary meaning of words we all use to communicate with each other, but God's word must be searched and pondered carefully considering how God chose to write his testimony to us concerning truth, before we will ever be able to come to the knowledge of the truth under consideration. Example: Jew in the scriptures could mean either a natural Jew of a spiritual Jew, which Webster would never consider. Bread in the scriptures could either mean the liquid substance we all eat, or it could be the word of God~you know scriptures, we do not need to quote them. The list is long, but you should get my point.

We all must agree that true Christians are a distinct race of men.
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1st Peter 2:9~"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"
They are of a peculiar descent or pedigree, different from the rest of the world. This is implied in their being called a generation.

There are three significations of the word generation in the Scriptures. Sometimes it means, as is its meaning in the common use, a class of persons among a people, or in the world, that are born together, or so nearly together, that the time of their being in the different stages of the age of man is the same. They shall be young persons, middle aged, and old together. Or they shall be together upon the stage of action. All that are together upon the face of the earth, or the stage of action, are very often accounted as one generation. Thus when God threatened that not one of the Israelites of that generation should see the good land, it is meant, all from twenty years old and upwards.

A second meaning is, those who are born of a common progenitor.

A third meaning of the word in Scripture is a certain race of mankind, whose generation and birth agree, NOT as to TIME, but as to descent and pedigree, or as to those persons from whom they originally proceeded. So it is to be understood,
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“This is Matthew 1:1~"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the son of Abraham;”
That is, this is the book that gives an account of his pedigree. And this meaning, viz. those who are of the same race and descent, must be given to the word in the text. The righteous are often spoken of in Scripture as being a distinct generation~
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Psalam 14:5 “There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.”
Again~
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Psalm 24:6~“This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob.”
The last for now:
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Psalm 73:15~“If I say, I will speak thus: behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.”
This is the meaning of Matthew 23 and can easily be proven. Please listen carefully to Jesus' words and ponder them in light of WHOM he is speaking against. I will help with certain emphasis....
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Matthew 23 reads....."Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.  Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
So clear how Jesus Christ used the phrase THIS GENERATION referring to a generation of serpents from their father the old serpent. Jesus clearly said they those Pharisees and scribes slew the prophet Zacharias, yet themselves personally were not there, yet they were the SAME EVIL and wicked generation/family of men that DID.

Question for you: "How did John the Baptist use the word generation...TIME, as far as its common use, or, descent and pedigree...kind, etc.?" How did Solomon use it? How did David use it? Need help?

 
« Last Edit: Thu May 11, 2017 - 04:45:19 by RB »

Offline lea

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #86 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 13:24:25 »
Matthew3:7, But having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
This was the Jews judgment in the Jewish/Roman war. 
You neglect John's and Jesus dialogue in their present tense.  If the wrath hasn't come yet, well,  who'd waste time believing that warning up to today?!! Illogical.

"In Matthew 24:34, Jesus declares, “[T]his generation shall not pass” until a series of events transpire–including the second coming. Did Jesus mean “this generation will not pass away” or “that generation shall not pass away,” was Matthew 24 fulfilled in the first century?  Two first century Roman historians record a supernatural event that was seen in the sky at the start of the Jewish War with Rome, in A.D. 66, that appears to fulfill Biblical prophecy concerning the second coming.  Almost immediately thereafter, the Roman Historian Cassius Dio records a mass vision of a multitude of spiritual bodies coming out of the earth at the sound of a trumpet in what appears to be a literal resurrection of the dead that same year in fulfillment of Matthew 24:31.   These two events marked the start of the worst war Israel ever faced.  As a result of this war, the Roman army worshipped the beast and his image on the ensigns within the Temple and then destroyed it in A.D. 70 such that “not one stone [was] left on another” in fulfillment of Matthew 24:2 and Matthew 24:15.  Around this time, the saints, including the disciples, were martyred in Jerusalem and Rome; the sun and moon were darkened; many false messiahs and false prophets appeared; and there were earthquakes, famines, wars and rumors of wars.  Jesus was right.  “This [first century] generation [did] not pass until all” the predictions in this chapter literally occurred!  For a detailed explanation of the historical events that fulfill seemingly every detail of every prediction in this chapter see the following commentary on Matthew 24. " Revelation Revolution.

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #87 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 15:58:56 »
Matthew3:7, But having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
You have corrupted the wording by John the Baptist. Generation as used by John is not the same as the word "brood". Brood is a noun~but in Matthew 3:7 the noun would be vipers, and generation would be an adjective...in God's use of the word generation in so many scriptures that shall be forthcoming.

Main Difference ~ Noun vs Adjective........Nouns and adjective are two of the parts of speech. The main difference between noun and adjective is that noun identifies a person, place, object, or idea whereas an adjective modifies a noun. What is a Noun? A noun is a naming word. Nouns include people, objects, places, animals, qualities, and ideas. Nouns are the name of the things that are around us. Nouns also act as subjects and objects of sentences.

Adjectives are easy to identify in a sentence because they fall right before the nouns they modify.Example: generation of vipers!
Quote from: Lea
This was the Jews judgment in the Jewish/Roman war.
The context said that you are deceived.
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Matthew 3:7-12~"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
The burden of proof lays heavy upon your shoulders to prove your point. This you can never do. This baptism of fire is the lake of fire when God shall immerse all of the wicked into in THAT DAY where the evil generation of vipers shall PERISH. God shall burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. The same is taught elsewhere in the holy scriptures.
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Matthew 13:30~"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
The exact same wording as John the Baptist said. Now, where is your proof?
Quote from: Lea
"In Matthew 24:34, Jesus declares, “[T]his generation shall not pass” until a series of events transpire–including the second coming. Did Jesus mean “this generation will not pass away” or “that generation shall not pass away,” was Matthew 24 fulfilled in the first century?  Two first century Roman historians record a supernatural event that was seen in the sky at the start of the Jewish War with Rome, in A.D. 66, that appears to fulfill Biblical prophecy concerning the second coming.  Almost immediately thereafter, the Roman Historian Cassius Dio records a mass vision of a multitude of spiritual bodies coming out of the earth at the sound of a trumpet in what appears to be a literal resurrection of the dead that same year in fulfillment of Matthew 24:31.   These two events marked the start of the worst war Israel ever faced.  As a result of this war, the Roman army worshipped the beast and his image on the ensigns within the Temple and then destroyed it in A.D. 70 such that “not one stone [was] left on another” in fulfillment of Matthew 24:2 and Matthew 24:15.  Around this time, the saints, including the disciples, were martyred in Jerusalem and Rome; the sun and moon were darkened; many false messiahs and false prophets appeared; and there were earthquakes, famines, wars and rumors of wars.  Jesus was right.  “This [first century] generation [did] not pass until all” the predictions in this chapter literally occurred!  For a detailed explanation of the historical events that fulfill seemingly every detail of every prediction in this chapter see the following commentary on Matthew 24. " Revelation Revolution.
In the morning, the Lord willing.   
« Last Edit: Fri May 12, 2017 - 04:17:10 by RB »

Offline lea

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #88 on: Thu May 11, 2017 - 19:48:32 »

You can keep the burden.  I enjoy mine lighter.

Jesus was speaking to his contemporary generation.

I'm going on to another topic.  This is fruitless.   ::headspin::


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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #89 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 04:03:05 »
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You can keep the burden.  I enjoy mine lighter.
Why waste anyone's time if you are not interested in defending what you think and want to believe as truth? So Jude 3 means nothing to you. Let me be clear with most all Preterist and Historical (who are a half-baked Preterist) concerning their corrupt perversion Eschatology~all of them corrupt so much of our NT scriptures and much of the old~and their doctrine WILL leave most of their followers unprepared for the evil days coming for the saints of God. The reason why you like your light burden would be because you do not believe there's a cross for God's children to carry. Your doctrine does not preach that!
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Jesus was speaking to his contemporary generation.
You believing something and proving the same are worlds apart. IF you had the truth then God WOULD support you, but since you do not, he has sent you a strong delusion, by allowing you to believe a lie.
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Jesus was speaking to his contemporary generation.
Taking that in the absolute sense, then why do you believe that ANY scriptures are for you personally? Oh, I see, you really do not believe that in an absolute sense ONLY when it serves your purpose. Peter and Paul both spoke of men/women like you.
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2nd Corinthians 2:17~"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."
You ARE part of that many!
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2nd Peter 3:16~"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
If you wrest and corrupt God holy scriptures, you will do so to your own destruction that will end in the lake of fire, which IS the second death, which I'm sure you do not believe that either.
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I'm going on to another topic.  This is fruitless.
To another topic? You will do the same to all of the scriptures, for men like you were appointed unto the same.
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Jude4~"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
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This is fruitless.
It IS with God's children who have truth. You will run into the next fight to labor to find the weak and feeble-minded among us.
« Last Edit: Fri May 12, 2017 - 04:14:30 by RB »

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #90 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 05:51:10 »

Main Difference ~ Noun vs Adjective........Nouns and adjective are two of the parts of speech. The main difference between noun and adjective is that noun identifies a person, place, object, or idea whereas an adjective modifies a noun. What is a Noun? A noun is a naming word. Nouns include people, objects, places, animals, qualities, and ideas. Nouns are the name of the things that are around us. Nouns also act as subjects and objects of sentences.

Adjectives are easy to identify in a sentence because they fall right before the nouns they modify.Example: generation of vipers! 

Uh RB, there are no adjectives in that example.  "Generation" is a noun.  "Of" is a preposition. "Vipers" is a noun.

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #91 on: Fri May 12, 2017 - 14:30:32 »
Uh RB, there are no adjectives in that example.  "Generation" is a noun.  "Of" is a preposition. "Vipers" is a noun.
My brother, I said:
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in God's use of the word generation in so many scriptures that shall be forthcoming.
Another example may help:
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Proverbs 30 12-14~There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men. There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
Generation here means a kind of person, for it lacks demonstrative pronouns or other modifiers for a "period of time". If generation as used by Solomon is describing a type/kind of person then it is an adjective, not a noun, in God's use of his words. My brother, God uses words to hide truth from the wise...or those who think they are! He's the the ONLY wise God, and our Saviour~as Jude humbly and wisely said.
« Last Edit: Fri May 12, 2017 - 15:49:16 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #92 on: Sat Jun 10, 2017 - 22:12:05 »
(Removed to prevent a double post)
« Last Edit: Sat Jun 10, 2017 - 23:35:18 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: This Generation~Matthew 24:34
« Reply #93 on: Sat Jun 10, 2017 - 23:31:48 »
I am directing the following points to anyone reading this who still cares to engage on this subject.  RB, if you would prefer not to continue an exchange without my handing out an ID card, I can certainly respect your decision, and I won't expect you to respond.

Some of the verses I am bringing up have already been touched on, but I would like to highlight some phrases within them that have not been addressed.  All the following passages combined help to define "This Generation" as the first-century generation living in Christ's time which would experience the fire of God's judgment back in those days.  "This Generation" was when the elements of the Old Covenant Age were "decaying, waxing old", and were "ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13), and when "the END OF ALL THINGS" was at hand ( I Peter 4:7).

In Luke 12, Christ was describing His coming return, with warnings for His servants to watch and be ready.  Then in Luke 12:49, He proceeded to tell His disciples, along with the multitude, that He was "come to send fire on the earth..." and also that He would send division on earth (Luke 12:51-53).  "For FROM HENCEFORTH (from that point in time onward) there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three..."  This tells us that division AS HE SPOKE was already beginning among those who were hearing Him. 

He then turned to the multitude in front of Him (Luke 12:54) and rebuked them for their hypocrisy in being able to read the signs of approaching weather conditions in the sky, but not being able to see the obvious conditions of impending judgment for their nation.  "Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern THIS TIME?"  In the clearest terms possible, "THIS TIME" was the season of history then occupied by those to whom Christ was speaking. 

Christ concluded His rebuke be giving a subtle warning that the judgment coming upon them by their "adversary" (Luke 12:58) could be forestalled if they gave due diligence to avoid it.  However, if they did not humble themselves, they would then be cast into prison (as the Jews actually were confined in the city of Jerusalem in the AD 70 era) where they would not be released until they had paid the very last mite of their debt.

What debt was it that this generation owed, and to whom?  As the commenter lea has brought out already, we need look no further than the context of the previous chapter, Luke 11:49-51.  "Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and APOSTLES" (which also limits the term of "this generation" to those who originally had the 12 apostles sent to them) "and some of them they shall slay and persecute:" (which that generation did do in the first century) "that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of THIS GENERATION" (the generation being the ones who did the persecution and slaying of some of those first-century apostles and prophets).  This is not metaphoric killing and persecution - it's literal - as in the cases of Stephen, Paul, John the Baptist, James, etc.  Because THIS GENERATION of Jesus' time would shed the blood of the righteous ones sent to them, they would pay for this offense with their own life-blood being shed - a debt paid down to the last "mite" when their generation passed through the great tribulation of the AD 70 era.

Just how could the guilt of all the righteous ones slain from Abel's time onward have been placed upon that single generation in Christ's day?  Because all these slain righteous ones throughout history until then were children of faith, like faithful Abraham, and were considered by God to be IN CHRIST.  If this first-century generation was guilty of killing Christ their representative, (as Stephen and Peter both accused them in Acts 3:14-15, and 7:52), then by inclusion they were guilty in essence of the shed blood of everyone represented by Christ.  It would be the same if a modern-day nation killed the ambassador of another country while he or she was visiting that nation.  It would be the equivalent of an offense against that ambassador's entire country which their position represents.

Luke 13:25-28 is another indicator that it was the first-century generation of Israel that was cast out of the kingdom at the time of the judgment.  "When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us; and He shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say WE HAVE EATEN AND DRUNK IN THY PRESENCE AND THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS."  There is ONLY ONE GENERATION that could say these words as an actual fact, and that generation was the one which was contemporary with the incarnate Christ.  Of course, Christ would tell them to depart from Him, at which time they were to be thrust out of the kingdom.  With weeping and gnashing of teeth, they would finally realize that the prophets they and their fathers had participated in slaying were sitting down in the kingdom with the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) at the same time they themselves would be cast out.  The occasion when the master had "risen up and shut to the door" would be the AD 70 physical return of Christ and the second resurrection.

Matthew 23:29-36 is yet another text that helps to define "This Generation" as the one that was contemporary with Jesus' earthly ministry who would experience judgment.  This passage is Christ's diatribe against the Pharisees of His day, blasting them for their hypocrisy in building the tombs of the prophets and garnishing the sepulchers of the righteous, when their fathers had killed those same prophets.  He foretold that, like their fathers, they would actually end up killing crucifying, scourging and persecuting the prophets, wise men, and scribes He would send to them in the time to come.  These scribes and Pharisees standing in front of Him as He spoke were going to "FILL UP THE MEASURE" of their fathers. 

To "fill up a measure" is to completely take up the space within that measure.  This "measure" was originated by the "fathers" of these Pharisees in Israel's past history by their rejection and persecution of the prophets and messengers God had sent to their nation.  It had been slowly added to by the nation of Israel as they continued, by means of persecution or death, to get rid of almost all the prophets sent to them.  The generation Christ ministered to would be the ones to complete the process of filling up this measure to the brim in their day.  This is why "Mystery Babylon" (Jerusalem) in Revelation 17 was holding up a cup "full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". A "full cup" is a "full measure".   

God's wrath against these unbelieving Jews for the persecution of His messengers was at the limit of His endurance in the days when I Thessalonians 2:14-16 was written.  "For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved; TO FILL UP THEIR SIN ALWAY: FOR THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST."  This measure of "filled up" offenses meant that God's wrath was prepared to come upon them at THAT TIME, which limits the punishment to that first-century generation.

Again, in Luke 23:28,  Christ also limited the time for this judgment to that of the women weeping for Him on the way to His crucifixion.  "...Weep not for me, but WEEP FOR YOURSELVES AND YOUR CHILDREN."  He did not intend this judgment to fall on every future descendant of those women He encountered - only their generation, which was composed of themselves and those to whom they had given birth.

Again, in Matthew 27:25, the crowd itself also called down this curse of judgment on their own generation at Christ's trial.  "His blood be on us and on our children" is not a continual, ongoing curse upon everyone who has since claimed a familial relationship to Judaism up until today.  The blood guilt for Christ's crucifixion came primarily upon that first-century generation of Christ-rejecting Jews.

Their complete rejection of Him had been predicted by Christ Himself earlier in Luke 17:24-25.  "For as the lightening, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in His day.  But first must He suffer many things and be rejected of THIS GENERATION."  The term "this generation" is quite specific in this verse.  The generation that rejected Christ was the SAME generation that caused Him to "suffer many things".

It's just as John 1:11 presented it: "He came unto HIS OWN, and HIS OWN received Him not."  That means "this generation" was defined as Christ's own people of that first-century generation who rejected Him, slew Him, and called down vengeance on their own heads and that of their sons and daughters for doing so.

"This Generation" was characterized by even more detail in Matthew 16:4 as "a wicked and ADULTEROUS generation" which sought for a sign to be given to it.  That first-century wicked and adulterous generation was the one which was given the single sign of the prophet Jonah (the 3 days / 3 nights sign).  Consequently, the definition of "this generation" is narrowed down in time to the one which personally saw the 3 days / 3 nights sign fulfilled by Christ in their presence. 

All these passages above have the concept of a particular time period attached to them.  Not one of them is limited to the meaning of a type or kind of person in the context that surrounds them.  Although I have used the KJV exclusively in the comments above, it is indeed regrettable that the KJV almost universally applied the generic term "generation" to each of the various Greek terms which have distinct differences between them.  By using the generic term that conceals these differences, the KJV has caused some real confusion on this subject.

 

     
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