Author Topic: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?  (Read 4400 times)

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Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jan 19, 2013 - 19:41:58 »
The apostles and the disciples anticipated Jesus' return of course, in their generation.
But you answered nothing about what the Scriptures say about the actual "presence" of the Lord Jesus when He will return to earth:

The disciples of the Lord Jesus certainly believed that He would return, as evidenced by their  question to Him here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and its meaning is "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In fact, Peter told the Jews that if they would repent that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus so that they could enjoy His presence:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

The preterist say that the Lord Jesus did return in 70AD but they have yet to prove that every eye saw Him in 70AD:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).


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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #36 on: Sat Jan 19, 2013 - 21:20:26 »
The apostles and the disciples anticipated Jesus' return of course, in their generation.
But you answered nothing about what the Scriptures say about the actual "presence" of the Lord Jesus when He will return to earth:

The disciples of the Lord Jesus certainly believed that He would return, as evidenced by their  question to Him here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and its meaning is "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In fact, Peter told the Jews that if they would repent that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus so that they could enjoy His presence:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

The preterist say that the Lord Jesus did return in 70AD but they have yet to prove that every eye saw Him in 70AD:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).



I think Pastor Curtis (full preterist) interprets the Text for us:

    "Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19 NASB)

The word for "refreshing" is from the Greek word anapsuxis, which means: "to revive, refresh, a recovery of breath." This spiritual refreshing was symbolized in the prophets by the picture of rain pouring down and bringing life and fruitfulness and of rivers of life giving water (Isaiah 32:1-4, 15-18; 44:1-5; 55.10-13; Ezekiel 36:25-26; 47:1-12; Psalm 36:8; 46.4). It was symbolized in terms of receiving a refreshing drink in the hottest and driest of conditions (Isaiah 55:1-3). It was symbolized by the shadow of a great rock in a hot and weary land (Isaiah 32:1-4).

Israel will be redeemed, her sins will be forgiven, and times of refreshing will come when she turns in faith to her Messiah Jesus. Now notice what else Peter says here:

    and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, (Acts 3:20 NASB)

The NKJV and others have "preached" instead of "appointed." But according to Vincent's Word Studies, "The best texts read prokeceirismenon (appointed). This Greek word is only used by Luke (22:14; 26:16). The verb originally means: "at hand, to take into one's hands, to choose." It is not "Jesus Christ" here nor "Christ Jesus," but "Jesus the Messiah," identifying Jesus with the Messiah. Jesus the Messiah, chosen for you.

The reference is naturally to the second coming of Christ as verse 21 shows:

    whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. (Acts 3:21 NASB)

"The period of restoration of all things"­ the word "restoration" here is from the Greek word anapsukseows. This word speaks of the redemption of Israel. This word is one of the key words used in the LXX when God predicted the restoration of Israel under the Messiah. Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament says of this word, "Here only in the N.T., though common in late writers. In papyri and inscriptions for repairs to temples and this phrase occurs in Jewish apocalyptic writings, something like the new heaven and the new earth of Revelation 21:1. The verb apokatisthmi is used by Jesus of the spiritual and moral restoration wrought by the Baptist as Elijah (Matthew 17:11; Mark 9:12) and by the disciples to Jesus in Acts 1:6. Josephus uses the word of the return from captivity and Philo of the restitution of inheritances in the year of jubilee. As a technical medical term it means complete restoration to health."

So Peter is saying, "If they will trust Jesus, they [Israel] will be redeemed, their sins will be forgiven and times of refreshing will come, and when Jesus returns to reward those who trust Him and destroy those who reject Him, they will be safe":

    "And the nations were enraged, and Thy wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." (Revelation 11:18 NASB)

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #37 on: Sun Jan 20, 2013 - 22:28:14 »
So Peter is saying, "If they will trust Jesus, they [Israel] will be redeemed, their sins will be forgiven and times of refreshing will come, and when Jesus returns to reward those who trust Him and destroy those who reject Him, they will be safe"
So are you saying that Israel repented and that is why the Lord Jesus returned?

You also left out the part about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus which will happen when the Father sends back the Son:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

When did every eye see Him since He was present in the clouds of the sky:

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him" (Rev.1:7).

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Jan 21, 2013 - 19:52:44 »
You have to then consider what God's presence is.
 Scripture teaches that God is everywhere; nobody can hide from him (Ps. 139:7-18). But his presence is more than that. It includes God’s commitment to us.

The “I AM” (Ex. 3:14) says “I will be with you” (3:12). The Lord promises to be with Israel as he delivers them from slavery.  So he takes a people to be his own: “I will be your God, and you shall be my people” (see Gen. 17:7, Lev. 26:12, 2 Cor. 6:16, Rev. 21:3-4). They become his family. Sometimes singles out his own people for special judgments (Amos 3:2); but the Lord’s main purpose is to bless his people– beyond anything they can imagine.

The chief blessing is the Lord’s own presence. He was with Israel in the tabernacle and in the fiery cloud that led them through the wilderness. After they sinned, the Lord offered to let them go to the promised land without him. Moses protested, “if your presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here” (Ex. 33:2, 15). God relented and went with them. Canaan, with all its milk and honey, would have been worthless without the Lord himself.

All this is fulfilled in Jesus. He is “God with us,” “Immanuel” (Isa. 7:14, Matt. 1:23). He is God’s tabernacle with his people (in John 1:14, “dwelled” means “tabernacled”).


Times of refreshing came for the Remnant of Israel, (Dan9) and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #39 on: Tue Jan 22, 2013 - 12:06:30 »
You have to then consider what God's presence is. Scripture teaches that God is everywhere; nobody can hide from him (Ps. 139:7-18). But his presence is more than that. It includes God’s commitment to us.

We are talking about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus as He exists in bodily form. We can see that He must be sent back before we can enjoy the time of refreshment in His "presence":

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

It would take a repentance from the nation of Israel in order for the Father to send back the Son in order that they could enjoy the times of refreshing from the 'presence" of the Lord. So His "presence" does not occur until He will be sent back to earth. 
Quote
Times of refreshing came for the Remnant of Israel, (Dan9) and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

That is referring to Daniel's city and his people, the Jews:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).

This verse has not yet been fulfilled because it is obvious that "everlasting rightousness" has not come upon Jerusalem.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 22, 2013 - 12:11:53 by Jerry Shugart »

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #39 on: Tue Jan 22, 2013 - 12:06:30 »



Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #40 on: Thu Jan 24, 2013 - 11:35:28 »


We are talking about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus as He exists in bodily form. We can see that He must be sent back before we can enjoy the time of refreshment in His "presence":

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

No, the Lord wasn't to appear to Israel in the physical realm. We know this & prove this point by the fact that Jesus (speaking to His Jewish apostles & disciples) told them not to look in the "inner rooms," etc,for the Son of man coming,. Not to believe any of those who say to either! Also, remember that the NASB rightly translated "the Messiah chosen for you (the Jews)
Hebrews 9:10

10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.


The time of reformation of Israel came with the Messiah's new law of grace. Peter (a Jew) tells the disciples pre-AD70, that "the end of all things" is at hand.  Those "all things" were the elements of the Old Covenant law which would be shaken out of heaven when the passing away of the old took place- at the end of the "Jewish age" in AD70

This is not to be disconnected from its parallel Scriptures in Dan.12, etc. 
The destruction of Judah and Jerusalem & the temple made with hands in AD70, was when the "power of the holy people was finally shattered."

The mystery of God was complete. The remnant Jew & believing gentiles in Christ inherited the "kingdom of God and of His Christ "(Rev.11)


  That is who Peter is appealing to in Acts 3:19-20. It's to all Jews in that passage. However, in Acts 2, Peter's immediate sermon brought repentance and salvation to those Jews he was addressing. Peter told the scoffers in the last days that God's desire was to have all come into repentance so as many as possible would inherit the new heaven and earth under the Messiah. But the scoffers challenged Peter, saying things were still the same as when the fathers died (1500  prior) It wasn't going to be any different with the apostles- as it had been decades now since Jesus "promised" His coming to the apostles. But Peter says that God is not slack with His promises- repent! the kingdom is at hand.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Dan.9:24).
Quote
This verse has not yet been fulfilled because it is obvious that "everlasting rightousness" has not come upon Jerusalem.
[/quote]

Peter is addressing JEWS in Acts 3:19-20, etc.  That IS who "the holy people are"   The "Messiah IS the Most Holy in the passage. Daniel's "people" were always "Jews" And JESUS IS the EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS they were to accept or not.

Good grief. Prophecies in Scripture aren't stand alone ideas.

The N.T. fulfills the prophecies in the O.T.   They both tell a story and a time frame to recognize both.


The only last word I want to hear you say is, "Yes, I understand what Jesus told us, we aren't supposed to have looked for Him in the flesh or say to anyone else, "there He is!"

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #41 on: Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 15:37:35 »
No, the Lord wasn't to appear to Israel in the physical realm.

How could His coming be described as an "appearance" if no one could see Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).





« Last Edit: Sat Jan 26, 2013 - 18:06:38 by Jerry Shugart »

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #42 on: Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 17:44:19 »
Lehigh when i read your post "don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture..."  i got a good little laugh....With all due respect preterism is one of the most illogical doctrines that i have ever heard of.  You people can't even answer simple questions that i have asked without twisting scripture or denying scripture or just not answering. Why do you even care about discussing end of the age events?  Are you curious?  Are you having doubts about your own beliefs?  You need to remember what stormcrow and convenater said about the uselessness of discussing end time events. ::smile::

Grappler,

Although I do not agree with Lehigh in regard to his eschatology at least he answers questions and he is not afraid to give his interpretation of verses which are presented to him.

The same cannot be said for you. You will only address the things which you think matches your views but when confronted with verses that prove that you are wrong you run away as fast as you can. You refuse to tackle those verses and instead of attempting to answer all we hear from you are your snide remarks.

Your act is getting old and nothing you say makes a positive contribulation to this forum. That is why those who have had discussions with you DO NOT TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.
Sir, Your first mistake was claiming i don't give an answer to your pre-trib. escape theory...as i have told you over and over and over i once tried to believe that nonsense...but just couldn't do it any longer and call myself a bible believing Christian.  Your second mistake was calling Lehigh a he.  And your last mistake on this post was claiming that i have an act.  I will gladly die for that "act" as you so rudely call it... ::smile::

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #43 on: Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 17:51:10 »
Quote
We are talking about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus as He exists in bodily form.
Why?  That's the antithesis of the gospel message, which is that the God is already actually present, living in His body, which is the church.

Don't you believe that God is really here with us?

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #44 on: Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 18:00:20 »
Quote
We are talking about the "presence" of the Lord Jesus as He exists in bodily form.
Why?  That's the antithesis of the gospel message, which is that the God is already actually present, living in His body, which is the church.

Don't you believe that God is really here with us?
  I think that what he is referring to is Acts 1:11.  This is Jesus' ascension back to the Father.  The two divine messengers plainly told the disciples that Jesus was going to come back just as they were seeing him ascend.  This would be a literal return since he literally ascended wouldn't you think?  It is actually quite simple even a child can understand it.

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #45 on: Fri Jan 25, 2013 - 18:20:31 »
No, the Lord wasn't to appear to Israel in the physical realm.

How could His coming be described as an "appearance" if no one could see Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).







Notice John doesn't say "for we shall see Him as he WAS!"

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #46 on: Sat Jan 26, 2013 - 18:14:19 »
Notice John doesn't say "for we shall see Him as he WAS!"

Is that all you can say about my response to what you said here?:

Quote
No, the Lord wasn't to appear to Israel in the physical realm.

How could His coming be described as an "appearance" if no one could see Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

Your question answered nothing about what I said. Of course the Apostle John doesn't say "for we shall see Him as he WAS!" because John was speaking about seeing Him in the future.

You stay in a state of confusion.

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #47 on: Sat Jan 26, 2013 - 18:31:20 »
Sir, Your first mistake was claiming i don't give an answer to your pre-trib. escape theory...

Sir, you have a short memory. You refused over and over to address what I said about the following pre-trib escape:

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev.3:10).

Your eschatology is entirely dependent on a rapture which happens during the time after the great tribulation. However, when we take a close look at the following passage we can know that this is not speaking of the rapture:

"... so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:39-41).

The Sheep and the Goats

In the same discourse where the Lord Jesus spoke of some be taken and the others being left he spoke of the sheep and the goats. It is plain that the sheep are the righteous and that they will not be taken but instead they will be left to inherit the kingdom:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mt.25:34).

It is equally evident that it is the goats who are the unrighteous and it is clear that they are the ones who will be taken:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (Mt.25:41,46).

They are the ones who will depart and go away so they are the ones who will be taken:

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:40-41).

The righteous will inherit the kingdom and they are the ones who will remain.

This cannot possibly be referring to the rapture because then it will be the righteous who will be taken and the unrighteous who will be left. Besides that, it is impossible to reconcile the events described in the 24th and 25th chapter of Matthew with this passage with a post-trib rapture.

The End of the Age

The Lord Jesus' words about some being taken and and others being left on the earth cannot be referring to the rapture because at Matthew 24:40-41 the Lord Jesus was answering His disciples' question as to what will happen at the "end of the age":

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age." He also makes it clear that at the harvest it will be the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will be left, the opposite of what will happen at the rapture.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 26, 2013 - 18:41:21 by Jerry Shugart »

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #48 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 13:24:37 »
No. Of those left in Jerusalem (none of which were Christians) -those who are taken would be the Jews to be sold as slaves throughout the Roman Empire in AD70.
The "left" are also synagogue of Satan Jews- killed & left to be eaten by vultures & animals pick their flesh (Rev.19)

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #49 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 13:35:40 »
Sir, Your first mistake was claiming i don't give an answer to your pre-trib. escape theory...

Sir, you have a short memory. You refused over and over to address what I said about the following pre-trib escape:

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev.3:10).

Your eschatology is entirely dependent on a rapture which happens during the time after the great tribulation. However, when we take a close look at the following passage we can know that this is not speaking of the rapture:

"... so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:39-41).

The Sheep and the Goats

In the same discourse where the Lord Jesus spoke of some be taken and the others being left he spoke of the sheep and the goats. It is plain that the sheep are the righteous and that they will not be taken but instead they will be left to inherit the kingdom:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mt.25:34).

It is equally evident that it is the goats who are the unrighteous and it is clear that they are the ones who will be taken:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment" (Mt.25:41,46).

They are the ones who will depart and go away so they are the ones who will be taken:

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Mt.24:40-41).

The righteous will inherit the kingdom and they are the ones who will remain.

This cannot possibly be referring to the rapture because then it will be the righteous who will be taken and the unrighteous who will be left. Besides that, it is impossible to reconcile the events described in the 24th and 25th chapter of Matthew with this passage with a post-trib rapture.

The End of the Age

The Lord Jesus' words about some being taken and and others being left on the earth cannot be referring to the rapture because at Matthew 24:40-41 the Lord Jesus was answering His disciples' question as to what will happen at the "end of the age":

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt.24:3).

Earlier the Lord Jesus spoke the parable of the "tares of the field" where He described what would occur at the "end of the age":

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).

Here we can see that the Lord Jesus speaks of a harvest that will happen at the "end of the age." He also makes it clear that at the harvest it will be the unrighteous who will be taken and the righteous who will be left, the opposite of what will happen at the rapture.
  Jerry your brain is unbelievable.lol  Revelation 3:10 says absolutely NOTHING about a pre-tribulation escape.  Nada, Zero. I mean are you kidding me??  God Almighty is able to "keep" us from evil without somekind of fantasy "rapture" that you so dearly are beholden to.  Jesus prayed to his heavenly Father in John 17 to NOT take us out of the world but to keep us from the evil one.  You posted Matt.24 39-41.  Sir..i am really beginning to worry about you.  There is once again NOTHING about a pre-tribulation escape there either. Nada.  Get it?  I noticed you posted nothing about where Jesus said that he is going to gather his elect AFTER the days of tribulation...how convenient. ::cool::

Offline Stucky

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #50 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 15:42:10 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.


The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #51 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:03:19 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.


The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
  Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::

Offline Stucky

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #52 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:14:35 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.


The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
  Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::


 ::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #53 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:33:38 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.


The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
  Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::


 ::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::
LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.

Offline Stucky

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #54 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 16:39:27 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.


The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
  Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::


 ::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::
LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.


I have more courage than you can imagine.  Is that all you have to say about my character?  ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #55 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 17:59:01 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.


The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
  Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::


 ::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::
LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.


I have more courage than you can imagine.  Is that all you have to say about my character?  ::eatingpopcorn:
Hmm well let me see... ::pondering:: uh yep thats about it. ::smile::

Offline Stucky

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #56 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:04:41 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.


The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
  Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::


 ::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::
LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.


I have more courage than you can imagine.  Is that all you have to say about my character?  ::eatingpopcorn:
Hmm well let me see... ::pondering:: uh yep thats about it. ::smile::


OK, makes no sense but I can accept that you have nothing to say so the discussion is over.   ::smile::

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #57 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:25:41 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.


The original OP was "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"

Suddenly, we are discussing the Pre-trib Rapture?  OK, here's a good argument for the Pre-Trib Rapture:
By Todd Strandberg of RaptureReady.com

What is the Pretribulation Rapture?
The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

Continue reading:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pretribulation-rapture.html
  Are you new to his site Stucky??  I appreciate your enthusiasm...bouncing around all over the place...it is kind of cute you know like a little puppy.lol  This particular post has been going on for awhile so what i need you to do is go back and read all of my posts on this subject and it will really help you out and give you a new understanding of scripture and exactly where i am coming from OR just continue to believe in your pre-trib. escape theory.  God bless you and have a good evening. ::tippinghat::


 ::smile::Why, yes, Grappler, I am new.  Thanks for appreciating my enthusiasm and for your cute little passive/aggressive snide comment.  No, I dont think I will do that, thank you.  ::smile:: I rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me on my understanding of scripture, not some one that doesnt interpret it correctly in my opinion.  Thanks, I WILL continue to believe in my pre-trib escape theory, thank you very much and I will accept your apology when we meet in Heaven.  God bless you and have a good evening too.   ::tippinghat::
LOL i didn't think you would have the courage.


I have more courage than you can imagine.  Is that all you have to say about my character?  ::eatingpopcorn:
Hmm well let me see... ::pondering:: uh yep thats about it. ::smile::


OK, makes no sense but I can accept that you have nothing to say so the discussion is over.   ::smile::
YUP!

Offline Red Baker

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #58 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 18:39:35 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #59 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:25:52 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB
Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

Offline Stucky

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #60 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:30:58 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB
Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #61 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:36:56 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB
Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?
  Where what is being taught?

Offline Stucky

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #62 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 19:44:02 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB
Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?
  Where what is being taught?

 ::doh::  The subject under discussion dude:  "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"
You said it was, so where?

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #63 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 20:02:58 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB
Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?
  Where what is being taught?

 ::doh::  The subject under discussion dude:  "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"
You said it was, so where?
Wow. You are really confused aren't you?  There are no scriptures that teach this doctrine.  If you had went back and read some of my posts on this issue like i suggested you might have a clue as to where we are at on this subject.  A little advice:  before you just jump into a discussion do a little research as to where the discussion has already been. ::smile::

Offline Stucky

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #64 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 20:10:59 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB
Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?
  Where what is being taught?

 ::doh::  The subject under discussion dude:  "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"
You said it was, so where?
Wow. You are really confused aren't you?  There are no scriptures that teach this doctrine.  If you had went back and read some of my posts on this issue like i suggested you might have a clue as to where we are at on this subject.  A little advice:  before you just jump into a discussion do a little research as to where the discussion has already been. ::smile::

NOTE:  This member has been placed on ignore so his responses to Stucky are irrelevant.

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #65 on: Sun Feb 03, 2013 - 20:30:04 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

There are NONE!  Daniel; Matt. 13; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Thess 2; 2 Tim. 3-4:5; and Revelation are against such fable.

RB
Amen brother.  But you have to admit it is rather amusing sometimes watching them defend this false doctrine.

I have to admit, I have never heard this being taught anywhere.  Can you tell me where this is being taught?
  Where what is being taught?

 ::doh::  The subject under discussion dude:  "There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?"
You said it was, so where?
Wow. You are really confused aren't you?  There are no scriptures that teach this doctrine.  If you had went back and read some of my posts on this issue like i suggested you might have a clue as to where we are at on this subject.  A little advice:  before you just jump into a discussion do a little research as to where the discussion has already been. ::smile::

NOTE:  This member has been placed on ignore so his responses to Stucky are irrelevant.
Like me or anyone else cares? ::noworries::