Author Topic: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?  (Read 5392 times)

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Offline DiscipleDave

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What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« on: Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 20:49:32 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?

^i^

larry2

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Sep 13, 2012 - 23:36:50 »
Hi Dave, and I'll just put my take on it as to what you're hearing. I read different articles telling of Jesus returning to earth and ruling from here for a thousand years and I do not believe that. Jesus' throne will be set in heaven according to Revelation 4:2 prior to the tribulation and certain ones will be present with Him there; 24 elders of Revelation 4:4, and 4 living ones of Revelation 4:6.
 
How are these caught up into heaven before the tribulation? Wait just a minute there larry2, I read of a last trump in 1 Corinthians 15:52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Now if there is a last trump, by necessity there must be prior trumps.
 
I read in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Dave, which trump are we reading of here?
 
In Revelation 7:13-14 another group arrives into heaven:  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These came out of great tribulation and were caught up to heaven. What say ye? Was this requiring the sounding of another trump?
 
Well just why would these coming out of great tribulation be different than the 24 elders (Those that died and preceded those who were alive and caught up), and the 4 Living ones which are those alive when the Lord comes to meet us in the air. These two churches have crowns: Smyrna representing those of Revelation 2:10 that obeyed this instruction, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Then there is the Philadelphia church of Revelation 3:10 whom are told, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11  Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Read through and note the reward the remaining 5 churches have. Notice in Revelation the crowns being thrown before Jesus' throne in Revelation 4:10. Brother Dave, I'll leave you with this to see if it peaks your interest, but if it does you'll be the first here.
 ::noworries::

Offline DiscipleDave

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Sep 14, 2012 - 23:44:29 »
Hi Dave, and I'll just put my take on it as to what you're hearing. I read different articles telling of Jesus returning to earth and ruling from here for a thousand years and I do not believe that. Jesus' throne will be set in heaven according to Revelation 4:2 prior to the tribulation and certain ones will be present with Him there; 24 elders of Revelation 4:4, and 4 living ones of Revelation 4:6.
 ::noworries::

You do not have to believe the Bible if you don't want to, that is a right to every person. But as for me, i will believe the Word of God and what it says, it says that the Throne of God is in the New City Jerusalem, and we know that the New City Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven, to the Earth. Please read Revelations chapter 21 and 22, specifically Rev 22:3 where it plainly says the Throne of God is in the New City Jerusalem. If then the Throne of God is in the City, and the City is on the Earth, than the Throne of God is not in Heaven, but on Earth.

As to your statement, that the throne will be set up in Heaven, well that Throne is already set up and has been established before the Earth ever was created. The Throne of God exists right now, in Heaven. Even the Temple that was built in Jerusalem was a copy of the Temple that was in Heaven even at that time. my point is the Temple and  the Throne, already exists, and has already been set up in Heaven. But when the New City Jerusalem comes to the Earth, the location of the Throne that was in Heaven shall be Changed. The Throne of Heaven will now be in the New City Jerusalem on the planet Earth, and not where it is currently now.

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larry2

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #3 on: Sat Sep 15, 2012 - 01:28:06 »
Quote from: DiscipleDave
You do not have to believe the Bible if you don't want to, that is a right to every person. But as for me, i will believe the Word of God and what it says . .
Wow DiscipleDave and OK; have a blessed day.  ::smile::

Offline DiscipleDave

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #4 on: Sun Sep 16, 2012 - 11:32:36 »
Quote from: DiscipleDave
You do not have to believe the Bible if you don't want to, that is a right to every person. But as for me, i will believe the Word of God and what it says . .
Wow DiscipleDave and OK; have a blessed day.  ::smile::

Thank you Brother, for your kind remark. And may the Lord Bless your day as well.  ::amen!::

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #4 on: Sun Sep 16, 2012 - 11:32:36 »



Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:12:08 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

Lively Stone

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 15:18:27 »
There are no scriptures that teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

No, all scripture points to it.

larry2

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 21:04:59 »
I do hope the timing of New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven is realized as being subsequent to the thousand year reign of Christ in heaven.

Revelation 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 

Lively Stone

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Dec 03, 2012 - 21:57:49 »
I do hope the timing of New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven is realized as being subsequent to the thousand year reign of Christ in heaven.

Revelation 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 

Yep. ::thumbup::

notreligus

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jan 07, 2013 - 10:56:34 »
Pre-Trib cannot be proven by proof-texting.  We must believe that certain things are inferred in the usual passages cited to believe in a pre-trib rapture. 

During my 40 years plus as a hard-line Dispensational I believed the pre-trib rapture, the typical Dispy teachings about the millennium, etc. because I accepted certain concepts.  The first one was that because the Church is not mentioned in Revelation, by that name, after the first three chapters in Revelation then that must mean that the Church is not here.  The second one, and perhaps the most important to Dispensationalism, is that the majority of what is written in Revelation applies to the Jews/Israel and not the Church.  The Church is gone, so the rest applies to the Jews/Israel.  They will be left on the Earth and, along with the rest of the unbelieving world, will suffer God's wrath.   The third concept that must be accepted is that the Church Age is parenthetical.  This was God's mystery.  He never mentioned the Church in the OT so Israel was put on the back-burner, it did not matter that they rejected the Messiah (thank you for that heresy, Pastor Hagee), but then Israel will be left on the Earth to suffer the wrath of God while the parenthetical Church is having a grant ol' time in Heaven for seven years. 


Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Jan 07, 2013 - 18:14:33 »
Pre-Trib cannot be proven by proof-texting.  We must believe that certain things are inferred in the usual passages cited to believe in a pre-trib rapture. 

During my 40 years plus as a hard-line Dispensational I believed the pre-trib rapture, the typical Dispy teachings about the millennium, etc. because I accepted certain concepts.  The first one was that because the Church is not mentioned in Revelation, by that name, after the first three chapters in Revelation then that must mean that the Church is not here.  The second one, and perhaps the most important to Dispensationalism, is that the majority of what is written in Revelation applies to the Jews/Israel and not the Church.  The Church is gone, so the rest applies to the Jews/Israel.  They will be left on the Earth and, along with the rest of the unbelieving world, will suffer God's wrath.   The third concept that must be accepted is that the Church Age is parenthetical.  This was God's mystery.  He never mentioned the Church in the OT so Israel was put on the back-burner, it did not matter that they rejected the Messiah (thank you for that heresy, Pastor Hagee), but then Israel will be left on the Earth to suffer the wrath of God while the parenthetical Church is having a grant ol' time in Heaven for seven years.
   i will leave the infering to you pre-tribers...i will take the more simple route and let scripture speak for itself...i be a Post-Triber all the way!!!!! ::disco::

notreligus

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jan 07, 2013 - 21:14:05 »
Pre-Trib cannot be proven by proof-texting.  We must believe that certain things are inferred in the usual passages cited to believe in a pre-trib rapture. 

During my 40 years plus as a hard-line Dispensational I believed the pre-trib rapture, the typical Dispy teachings about the millennium, etc. because I accepted certain concepts.  The first one was that because the Church is not mentioned in Revelation, by that name, after the first three chapters in Revelation then that must mean that the Church is not here.  The second one, and perhaps the most important to Dispensationalism, is that the majority of what is written in Revelation applies to the Jews/Israel and not the Church.  The Church is gone, so the rest applies to the Jews/Israel.  They will be left on the Earth and, along with the rest of the unbelieving world, will suffer God's wrath.   The third concept that must be accepted is that the Church Age is parenthetical.  This was God's mystery.  He never mentioned the Church in the OT so Israel was put on the back-burner, it did not matter that they rejected the Messiah (thank you for that heresy, Pastor Hagee), but then Israel will be left on the Earth to suffer the wrath of God while the parenthetical Church is having a grant ol' time in Heaven for seven years.
   i will leave the infering to you pre-tribers...i will take the more simple route and let scripture speak for itself...i be a Post-Triber all the way!!!!! ::disco::

Hah!!!!   You inferred that I was pre-trib.  I never said I was. 

To let Scripture speak for itself you have to read it with understanding.  You have to compare Scripture with Scripture.  You have to know when its allegorical and when its literal.  Anybody can say that they let Scripture speak for itself but there is not one human being alive or who has ever lived that has not had to reach some conclusions based on personal bias.  If you're Calvinist you'll have a bias.  If you're interdenominational you'll have a bias.  If you're a Methodist you'll have a bias.  If you're Southern Baptist you'll have a bias (and since Mohler has become so influential you might now be Calvinist.)   If you're Catholic you'll have a bias.  If your Restoration Movement Church of Christ you'll have a bias.  On and on. 


Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jan 08, 2013 - 16:44:35 »
Pre-Trib cannot be proven by proof-texting.  We must believe that certain things are inferred in the usual passages cited to believe in a pre-trib rapture. 

During my 40 years plus as a hard-line Dispensational I believed the pre-trib rapture, the typical Dispy teachings about the millennium, etc. because I accepted certain concepts.  The first one was that because the Church is not mentioned in Revelation, by that name, after the first three chapters in Revelation then that must mean that the Church is not here.  The second one, and perhaps the most important to Dispensationalism, is that the majority of what is written in Revelation applies to the Jews/Israel and not the Church.  The Church is gone, so the rest applies to the Jews/Israel.  They will be left on the Earth and, along with the rest of the unbelieving world, will suffer God's wrath.   The third concept that must be accepted is that the Church Age is parenthetical.  This was God's mystery.  He never mentioned the Church in the OT so Israel was put on the back-burner, it did not matter that they rejected the Messiah (thank you for that heresy, Pastor Hagee), but then Israel will be left on the Earth to suffer the wrath of God while the parenthetical Church is having a grant ol' time in Heaven for seven years.
   i will leave the infering to you pre-tribers...i will take the more simple route and let scripture speak for itself...i be a Post-Triber all the way!!!!! ::disco::

Hah!!!!   You inferred that I was pre-trib.  I never said I was. 

To let Scripture speak for itself you have to read it with understanding.  You have to compare Scripture with Scripture.  You have to know when its allegorical and when its literal.  Anybody can say that they let Scripture speak for itself but there is not one human being alive or who has ever lived that has not had to reach some conclusions based on personal bias.  If you're Calvinist you'll have a bias.  If you're interdenominational you'll have a bias.  If you're a Methodist you'll have a bias.  If you're Southern Baptist you'll have a bias (and since Mohler has become so influential you might now be Calvinist.)   If you're Catholic you'll have a bias.  If your Restoration Movement Church of Christ you'll have a bias.  On and on.
Uh dude ...go back and read your post you said yourself you were a pre-triber ::giggle::....and as for the rest of your response i would have to say i already knew that information but thanks for the review. ::tippinghat::

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #13 on: Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 11:35:23 »
There is a belief today that is being taught, that Christ Returns before the Tribulation period? What Scriptures teach this doctrine? That Christ comes BEFORE the tribulations?
The teaching that the rapture is "imminent" is supported by the following passage:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body.… The Lord is at hand (eggus)" (Phil.3:20-21;4:5).

The Greek word eggus means "of times imminent and soon to come to pass" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The Coming of the Lord Draweth Nigh

Now let us look at the following verse from the epistle of James where the Lord's coming is described as drawing near:

"Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh (eggizō )" (James 5:8).

The Greek word translated "draweth nigh" at James 5:8 is eggizō and in this verse that word means "to be imminent" (A Greek English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott [Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1940], 467).

In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

"IS AT HAND. ('egizo') This is actually two words put together, en= in and hand. This is a verb here used with the Perfect Active Indicative. It should read: 'The coming of the Lord has come right up to the present, and 'is in the hand,' thus certain and sure to take place.' (As the figure of speech: 'A bird in hand'). It is getting closer but it has not arrived, it is absolutely certain to take place. It is 'in the vicinity, close by.' Liddell & Scott translate this "to be imminent, to bring near, bring up to, to be at the point of, approximate …" (Couch, Greek Exegesis of the Rapture Passages, James 5:7-8; 9b).

Therefore, since the coming of the Lord spoken of by James is described as being "imminent" we can know that there will be no events which must precede that coming. Therefore, the Lord Jesus' "coming" described in the following passage cannot possibly be the "coming" that those who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:29-30).

If certain events, such as the "great tribulation" and the "sun being darkened" must happen prior to the Lord Jesus' coming then that event could not be described as being "imminent." However, the "coming" of the Lord Jesus of which James spoke is indeed described as being "imminent."

Therefore it is evident that the rapture will happen before the great tribulation.

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #14 on: Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 14:03:21 »
Jerry Shugart said:
Quote
In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

Quote
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #15 on: Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 17:06:06 »
Jerry Shugart said:
Quote
In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

Quote
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::
  When i read you posts Lehigh, I say well did Peter prophecy of people like you-  "knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires"  You scoff and mock those who take scripture literally but i will make the prophecy that one day you will regret it. ::tippinghat::

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #16 on: Sat Jan 12, 2013 - 23:52:08 »
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!
So if you believe that the Lord Jesus descended from heaven in 70AD then you must believe that the saints at that time were caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess.4:16-17).

If the Christians suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth in 70AD we would expect that there would be evidence that that happened. What proof can you offer to support your assertion?

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #17 on: Sun Jan 13, 2013 - 14:04:46 »
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

So if you believe that the Lord Jesus descended from heaven in 70AD then you must believe that the saints at that time were caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess.4:16-17).

If the Christians suddenly disappeared from the face of the earth in 70AD we would expect that there would be evidence that that happened. What proof can you offer to support your assertion?

First, I disagree with you using the word "descended"  Coming, returning and appearing do not mean He "descended" LITERALLY. He executed HIS POWER on the land and the disciples were to "watch" for the "signs" of when that would be too.

Next, a rapture of the living is not in Scripture. It is not literal. So we're not going to look for any history of this event in the first place. http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/the_rapture.htm

I have read "the works of Josephus. "   He was an eyewitness to the Jews calamity during the Roman/Jewish war.  This reinforced my Preterist studies several years ago.

Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall" (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, "shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God's presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds.

Did the signs of his second coming (Mt. 24:27-30) already take place and nobody noticed them?

Answer
: Eusebius and other historians mention that the Christians definitely saw the signs and left Jerusalem. The Jews saw the signs too (according to Josephus and Tacitus), but they refused to acknowledge them as portending calamity for them. They stubbornly believed that God was about to establish a literal, physical Golden Age of the Messiah. So, the Jews stayed in Jerusalem and Judea to fight the war, believing God would somehow miraculously deliver them and give them their physical kingdom over Rome and the whole world.


Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #18 on: Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 10:37:25 »
First, I disagree with you using the word "descended"  Coming, returning and appearing do not mean He "descended" LITERALLY. He executed HIS POWER on the land and the disciples were to "watch" for the "signs" of when that would be too.

The Lord Jesus answer to what would happen at the end of the age was in reply to a question about about His "coming":

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and it means "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The disciples were asking about the presence of the Lord Jesus' coming so His answer was in regard to His presence. 
Quote
Next, a rapture of the living is not in Scripture. It is not literal. So we're not going to look for any history of this event in the first place.

Here is the verse which proves that living believers will indeed by raptured (caught up) in the air to meet the Lord Jesus:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:16-17).
 

notreligus

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 11:59:56 »
Jerry Shugart said:
Quote
In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

Quote
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

Are you sure you understand what you read?

Have you read the two epistles to the Thessalonians?  If so, would you please tell me, what were their thoughts on the return of Christ? 

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 18:00:54 »
Jerry Shugart said:
Quote
In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

Quote
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

Are you sure you understand what you read?

Have you read the two epistles to the Thessalonians?  If so, would you please tell me, what were their thoughts on the return of Christ? 
The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jan 14, 2013 - 20:04:12 »
Jerry Shugart said:
Quote
In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

Quote
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

Are you sure you understand what you read?

Have you read the two epistles to the Thessalonians?  If so, would you please tell me, what were their thoughts on the return of Christ? 
The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.
When i read you posts Lehigh, I say well did Peter prophecy of people like you-  "knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires"  You scoff and mock those who take scripture literally but i will make the prophecy that one day you will regret it.  ::smile::

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Jan 15, 2013 - 17:33:51 »
Jerry Shugart said:
Quote
In an article on the Scofield Prophecy Studies web site Dr. Mal Couch, the founder and president of the Tyndale Theological Seminary, writes the following commentary on James 5:8:

Another victim of the charlatans of "last days madness!"

Quote
In an article found on the "Pre-Trib Research Center" web site Dr. Renald E. Showers writes:

"In light of James' statements C. Leslie Mitton wrote, 'James clearly believed, as others of his time did, that the coming of Christ was imminent.' On the basis of James' statements we can conclude that Christ's coming was imminent in New Testament times and continues to be so today, and that this fact should make a difference in the way Christians live" [emphasis added] (Showers, The Imminent Coming of Christ).

Oh boy, are you looking in the wrong place for "knowledge" of Eschatology!!

How this ideology twists and corrupts Scripture is immoral.

What a flat out deluded lie in that statement above. "New Testament times" - you mean the first century AD- and YES the apostles wrote that the Lord's coming was imminent! 
And guess what?  If He was IMMINENT then, He is not nor will EVER be IMMINENT AGAIN!

There is no "and continues to be so today"   How pathetic is that statement.   ::frown::

Are you sure you understand what you read?

Have you read the two epistles to the Thessalonians?  If so, would you please tell me, what were their thoughts on the return of Christ? 
The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.
When i read you posts Lehigh, I say well did Peter prophecy of people like you-  "knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires"  You scoff and mock those who take scripture literally but i will make the prophecy that one day you will regret it.  ::smile::
What a low-life comment. 

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #23 on: Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 17:59:06 »
The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.
Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 18:57:57 »
The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.
Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!


And this is just to Thessalonica - the earliest epistles:

Paul, Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians:

    1 Thessalonians 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1 Thessalonians 5:23, "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Now use your brain. Whole "body" preserved blameless at the coming of the Lord.  Who is Paul saying would not all sleep at the coming of the Lord?

Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 20:14:41 »
Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.
I accept the fact that the first century Christians were taught that the coming of the Lord Jesus at the rapture was imminent. However, In The Scofield Reference Bible we read that "the Biblical term 'at hand' or 'near' is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be at hand will immediately appear, but only that person or thing has the quality of imminency."

Christians were taught to be waiting for a Savior from heaven, the Lord Jesus who will change our lowly body so that it will be fashioned like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:21).

Since Christians are eagerly waiting the Savior to appear then we know that He will, in His Person, appear. What evidence can you give that this did in fact happen in 70AD? And what evidence can you give that all the Christians living in 70AD were "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air?

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #26 on: Wed Jan 16, 2013 - 20:29:49 »
The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.
Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!


And this is just to Thessalonica - the earliest epistles:

Paul, Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians:

    1 Thessalonians 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1 Thessalonians 5:23, "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Now use your brain. Whole "body" preserved blameless at the coming of the Lord.  Who is Paul saying would not all sleep at the coming of the Lord?

Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.
  Lehigh when i read your post "don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture..."  i got a good little laugh....With all due respect preterism is one of the most illogical doctrines that i have ever heard of.  You people can't even answer simple questions that i have asked without twisting scripture or denying scripture or just not answering. Why do you even care about discussing end of the age events?  Are you curious?  Are you having doubts about your own beliefs?  You need to remember what stormcrow and convenater said about the uselessness of discussing end time events. ::smile::

Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #27 on: Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 10:55:34 »
Lehigh when i read your post "don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture..."  i got a good little laugh....With all due respect preterism is one of the most illogical doctrines that i have ever heard of.  You people can't even answer simple questions that i have asked without twisting scripture or denying scripture or just not answering. Why do you even care about discussing end of the age events?  Are you curious?  Are you having doubts about your own beliefs?  You need to remember what stormcrow and convenater said about the uselessness of discussing end time events. ::smile::

Grappler,

Although I do not agree with Lehigh in regard to his eschatology at least he answers questions and he is not afraid to give his interpretation of verses which are presented to him.

The same cannot be said for you. You will only address the things which you think matches your views but when confronted with verses that prove that you are wrong you run away as fast as you can. You refuse to tackle those verses and instead of attempting to answer all we hear from you are your snide remarks.

Your act is getting old and nothing you say makes a positive contribulation to this forum. That is why those who have had discussions with you DO NOT TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 15:36:06 by Jerry Shugart »

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #28 on: Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 11:09:10 »
Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.
I accept the fact that the first century Christians were taught that the coming of the Lord Jesus at the rapture was imminent. However, In The Scofield Reference Bible we read that "the Biblical term 'at hand' or 'near' is never a positive affirmation that the person or thing said to be at hand will immediately appear, but only that person or thing has the quality of imminency."

Christians were taught to be waiting for a Savior from heaven, the Lord Jesus who will change our lowly body so that it will be fashioned like His glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:21).

Since Christians are eagerly waiting the Savior to appear then we know that He will, in His Person, appear. What evidence can you give that this did in fact happen in 70AD? And what evidence can you give that all the Christians living in 70AD were "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air?

Are you listening? You posted about the "Scofield Study Bible" again.  Throw it out. You need to start over without the preconceived last day madness and hell for other people belief!

Our "Transformed" Body

Philippians 3:20-21
    Philippians 3:21 (NKJV) who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

The futurist looks at this verse and says, "When the Lord returns some day in the future, he will transform our dead decaying bodies into spiritual bodies like his." The problem with this is that the Lord has already returned, and what ever this is talking about has already happened! Whatever this verse is talking about happened in AD 70.

"Who will transform our lowly body...." If this has already happened, how has our body been transformed? To understand this, we must first understand the word "transformed." It is the Greek word metaschematizo. This word is used five times in the New Testament. The connotation in all five refers to the act of assuming an outward expression that does not come from within. Let's look at these verses and see if we can get a better understanding of this word.

    1 Corinthians 4:6 (NKJV)
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred (metaschematizo) to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

Paul is here attempting to appeal to the baby Corinthians on their level, so was "fashioning" (assuming an outward expression that does not come from within) himself and Apollos on their level. He had just rebuked them for schisms in chapter 3; and Paul, while knowing that he and Apollos were more mature than the Corinthians, didn't want to appear superior, for he wanted their focus to be on the Lord, not on them! The "forming" was assuming an outward expression that did not come from within. It was an appearance to keep from being seen as super-apostles in the eyes of the Corinthians.

Paul also uses this word metaschematizo in:

    2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (NKJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming (metaschematizo) themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms (metaschematizo) himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform (metaschematizo)themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

The false apostles were not apostles of Christ, Satan was not an angel of light, and his ministers were not ministers of righteousness. They were all assuming an outward expression that did not come from within. In this same way, our lowly body was transformed.

Beginning with the completion of atonement at 70 AD, Christians acquired immortality.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The change was the putting on of immortality. The physical body is taking on a condition that is alien to its nature. It isn't changing its nature, just taking on a temporary condition by virtue of the spirit which is immortal. The lowly, physical body does not become "immortal", it merely achieves a special status by virtue of housing a Christian spirit that IS immortal. That is the meaning of metaschematizo, the putting on of a temporary quality that does not affect the true nature. That status is not carried over after death, when the spirit leaves.

Philippians 3:21 is not referring to some future raising up and changing of the physical body, but refers to the "putting on" of immortality as a direct result of the indwelling of the immortal spirit while the Christian is physically alive!


Paul goes on to say, "That it may be conformed to His glorious body." The word "conformed" is the Greek word summorphos, which comes from morphe, meaning: "the essential character of something, the essential form which never alters." The word Paul uses here is not morphe but summorphos, which means: "jointly formed." The prefix "sun" (soon) denotes: "union; with or together." This "sun" prefix tells us that this is a positional association.

Notice that the "metaschematizo" of the lowly body results in the "summorphos" of the body. The pronoun "auto" (it) refers back to the lowly body and is described as being "summorphon" because it had been metaschematizo.

Verse 21 reads like this: "Who (Christ) will transform (metaschematizo) our lowly body that it (our lowly body) may be conformed (summorphon) to his glorious body."

Our body did not become a glorious body, but is glorious only in its association with His glorious body. Christ's body is literally glorified and our is co-glorified. We are glorified only in a positional sense.

For example:

    Romans 6:4 (NKJV) Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The word" buried" here is sunthapto. Were we physically, literally buried? No. Was Christ? Yes. We were buried only by association with Christ -- it was HIS burial, but our co-burial through his baptism.

This same association applies in Philippians 3:21 ; "Who (Christ) will transform (metaschematizo - the act of assuming an outward expression that does not come from within.) our lowly body that it (our lowly body) may be conformed (summorphon- co-formed, associated to the fashion of His, not our body) to his glorious body."

It was Christ's body that was "morphed" and made glorious. Our body obtains this glory in this life only through association, or being "with-morphed", if you will. That is why the physical body is now assuming an outward expression that does not come from within- it is housing the now immortal spirit, but it doesn't appear that way. It is not an immortal body. The body is no more "morphed" than it is "buried" in Romans 6:4. Futurists that see a physical glorified body in this verse, totally gloss over the Greek used in this verse.

The lowly body of the Christian (since 70 AD) has taken on (through the "change" of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52) an outward expression that does not come from within because of the immortality of the spirit within, and, as such, is in association with Christ's (and ONLY Christ's) transformed and glorified body. Only Christ was given this transformation because only His body was free of corruption and was promised not to see decay. Nowhere will you find a verse that talks about our physical body being "morphed" or changed into a glorious body.

This word summorphon is also used in:

    Romans 8:29 (NKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed (summorphon)to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Because Christians are joined to Christ, they are summorphon - co-formed into His image. It is this association to Christ's nature, this summorphon with the image of Christ, that is responsible for the metaschematizo, or new condition, of the living saint from 70 AD onward!

We must understand that sun prefix on the word, summorphon, shows not an exact likeness to the nature of Christ, but an association with Christ's nature.

We also see this positional association in Romans 6 (co-buried, co-crucified, co-resurrected with Christ); Ephesians 2 (co-quickened, co-raised, co-seated in heaven with Christ); and Colossians 2 (co-buried, co-raised, co-quickened). These all utilize the sun or co- prefix and all demand a positional stance of the believer with the reality of Christ. Christ was buried, raised, quickened, and is seated in heaven. The believer is co-buried, co-raised, co-quickened, and co-seated in heaven. In Christ is the reality, in the believers is the association with that reality.

So, in this verse, it is an association with CHRIST'S nature that is essential. Only by and through that can there be a metaschematizo of the believer, a putting on of a new condition, a "refashioning".

So, Paul is saying that at the return of Christ, believers will be "transformed," their spirit will become immortal while dwelling in a physical body. This change took place because of the believer's association with Christ's glorified body. This is the change that 1 Corinthians 15:51 speaks of:

    1 Corinthians 15:51 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed;

Now, notice how Paul says that this "transformation" is to take place:

    Philippians 3:21 (NKJV) who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.


He says that it is, "according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself." This change in the believers was to occur when Christ subdued all things. When did that happen?

    1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (NKJV) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Christ's glorious power was made manifest in the second coming when he destroyed spiritual death and brought immortality.

Believers, we have immortality now, but we dwell in a mortal body. When we die physically, our immortal spirit will put on an immortal body and we will forever dwell with the Lord.  ~ Berean Bible Church




Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #29 on: Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 15:28:15 »
Philippians 3:21 is not referring to some future raising up and changing of the physical body, but refers to the "putting on" of immortality as a direct result of the indwelling of the immortal spirit while the Christian is physically alive!Our body did not become a glorious body, but is glorious only in its association with His glorious body. Christ's body is literally glorified and our is co-glorified. We are glorified only in a positional sense.

Nowhere will you find a verse that talks about our physical body being "morphed" or changed into a glorious body.

So our bodies when we are "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air will not be changed into a glorious body like the Lord Jesus' body?

You failed to address the fact that we will bear the image of the "heavenly" just as we have borne the image of the "earthly":

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:49-52).

The next verse explains why we will bear the image of the heavenly, and that is because flesh and blood bodies cannot enter into the heavenly, eternal kingdom of God and that will be the destination of those who will be caught up. That is how we will be changed. The Apostle Paul refers to the same thing here:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:1-4).

This is in regard to the "blessed hope" and Paul relates that it is laid up for us in heaven:

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel" (Col.1:5).

Therefore, there can be no doubt that the Christian will put on a new, heavenly body, which is much different from our flesh and blood body, when the Lord Jesus appears:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

Now a question for you. Were all the Christians "caught up" to meet the Lord Jesus in the air in 70AD?
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 15:33:00 by Jerry Shugart »

notreligus

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #30 on: Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 16:28:35 »
The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.
Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!


And this is just to Thessalonica - the earliest epistles:

Paul, Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians:

    1 Thessalonians 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1 Thessalonians 5:23, "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Now use your brain. Whole "body" preserved blameless at the coming of the Lord.  Who is Paul saying would not all sleep at the coming of the Lord?

Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.


When Paul told those in the church at Thessalonica to start working he was not speaking of laziness but was speaking of those who had essentially done what some have done before and this is to give up their worldly concerns and possessions and wait for His return. 

A poster here asked you for a single proof text, but the way to understand these two epistles to the Thessalonians is to read both books and to study the social and historical context.  It is good to especially study the city of Thessalonica for the background.  Reaching these people for the Lord was a daunting task.  I've read probably a thousand pages plus of commentary and history on these epistles.  Paul was at Thessalonica less than two weeks and wrote the follow-up epistle after getting word back that others had come behind him and told these people that Christ's return was imminent.  The Jews expected Messiah to overtake the Romans and set up His rule on the Earth.  When He did not do that after His resurrection and later ascension they thought He might come back again very soon, meaning right away.  There are historical records to support this but I can't point to a single verse in the Thessalonian epistles to support it.  If the Bible is true, and it is, other records will support it and vice versa. 

I'm not a preterist but I know what these epistles are about.  And Paul essentially told these people to cool their heels. 

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #31 on: Thu Jan 17, 2013 - 18:48:44 »
The Thessalonians believed Christ would return in their generation.
Please quote the passage to which you are referring.

Thanks!


And this is just to Thessalonica - the earliest epistles:

Paul, Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians:

    1 Thessalonians 3:13, "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17, "Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1 Thessalonians 5:23, "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Now use your brain. Whole "body" preserved blameless at the coming of the Lord.  Who is Paul saying would not all sleep at the coming of the Lord?

Don't try to twist the logic of the Scripture. It is what it is. Paul meant his first century audience. Accept it.


When Paul told those in the church at Thessalonica to start working he was not speaking of laziness but was speaking of those who had essentially done what some have done before and this is to give up their worldly concerns and possessions and wait for His return. 

A poster here asked you for a single proof text, but the way to understand these two epistles to the Thessalonians is to read both books and to study the social and historical context.  It is good to especially study the city of Thessalonica for the background.  Reaching these people for the Lord was a daunting task.  I've read probably a thousand pages plus of commentary and history on these epistles.  Paul was at Thessalonica less than two weeks and wrote the follow-up epistle after getting word back that others had come behind him and told these people that Christ's return was imminent.  The Jews expected Messiah to overtake the Romans and set up His rule on the Earth.  When He did not do that after His resurrection and later ascension they thought He might come back again very soon, meaning right away.  There are historical records to support this but I can't point to a single verse in the Thessalonian epistles to support it.  If the Bible is true, and it is, other records will support it and vice versa. 

I'm not a preterist but I know what these epistles are about.  And Paul essentially told these people to cool their heels. 

I do not think think the Jews thought the Messiah was going to come back after they missed His visitation the first time (Lk 19:40-44)   
Christ warned them of a JUDGMENT though.

There were false prophets in Jerusalem before Titus moved in to take the Temple and the City. These false prophets, recorded by Josephus, were Jews who deluded the remaining Jews that God would somehow miraculously save them from the Romans.  Of course the perished.


Offline Jerry Shugart

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jan 18, 2013 - 12:42:33 »
I do not think think the Jews thought the Messiah was going to come back after they missed His visitation the first time (Lk 19:40-44)   
Christ warned them of a JUDGMENT though.

The disciples of the Lord Jesus certainly believed that He would return, as evidenced by their  question to Him here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?" (Mt.24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and its meaning is "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In fact, Peter told the Jews that if they would repent that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus so that they could enjoy His presence:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

Since the preterist teach that the Lord Jesus returned in some form or the other in 70AD they must think that Israel did repent and they received the "times of refreshing" from the presence of the Lord Jesus and that "times of refreshing" was the complete destruction of Jerusalem.

That idea only makes sense to the preterists!
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 18, 2013 - 12:49:33 by Jerry Shugart »

Lehigh

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jan 18, 2013 - 20:33:54 »
I do not think think the Jews thought the Messiah was going to come back after they missed His visitation the first time (Lk 19:40-44)   
Christ warned them of a JUDGMENT though.

The disciples of the Lord Jesus certainly believed that He would return, as evidenced by their  question to Him here:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?" (Mt.24:3).

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and its meaning is "presence, the presence of one coming" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In fact, Peter told the Jews that if they would repent that the Father would send back the Lord Jesus so that they could enjoy His presence:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).

Since the preterist teach that the Lord Jesus returned in some form or the other in 70AD they must think that Israel did repent and they received the "times of refreshing" from the presence of the Lord Jesus and that "times of refreshing" was the complete destruction of Jerusalem.

That idea only makes sense to the preterists!

The apostles and the disciples anticipated Jesus' return of course, in their generation. But that is not who notreligus was referring to.  He/she mentioned the Jews of the flesh, (at least that's what it sounded like)

Anyway, yes of course some repented and were saved.
Do you understand the difference between the Jews of the flesh and the faithful remnant of Israel or not?
Who do you think Peter is talking to in Acts 2?  The apostles initially only preached to the Jewish brethren.

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
A Vital Church Grows

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly[g] received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church[h] daily those who were being saved.


And then we also see how Israel is called the nations in Acts4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’[a] 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
The Name of Jesus Forbidden

13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. 15 But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, 16 saying, “What shall we do to these men? For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name.”

18 So they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. 20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” 21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them, because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done. 22 For the man was over forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.
Prayer for Boldness

23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said:

‘Why did the nations rage,
And the people plot vain things?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.’[c]

27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done. 29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.

So we see that the times of refreshing for the remnant of Israel. These would be saved from God's wrath. The 144k in Revelation.
The 2/3, (Zech13:8) who were Mystery Babylon, perished in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Offline Grappler

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Re: What Scriptures teach Pre-Trib?
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jan 18, 2013 - 21:42:54 »
Post deleted - Sending PM.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 19, 2013 - 02:58:01 by larry2 »

 

     
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