Author Topic: Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?  (Read 2605 times)

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Offline Star of David

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Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.


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Lively Stone

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I believe there will be a 'harpazo', the seizing away of the Bride by the Bridegroom. Harpazo is in the context of one seizing away or wresting of something that belongs to the person....the Bride is betrothed to the Lord Jesus Christ.

larry2

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Hi Star of David, I'm always curious at such a blanket statement as yours. Why considering that we read in Matthew 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (egeiro - to rise).

The Apostle John in Revelation 4:1 is invited into heaven; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. What did John see on the Lord's Day, and how did they get there if not caught up or raptured?

Revelation 4:2. Jesus now sitting on His own throne.
Revelation 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting.
Revelation 4:6  In the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living ones.

1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo, or raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Another group seen in heaven are the great multitude of Revelation 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. The throne of God is in heaven, and these of the multitude arrive there in some manner.

Thanks.

Offline Star of David

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Hi Star of David, I'm always curious at such a blanket statement as yours. Why considering that we read in Matthew 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (egeiro - to rise).

The Apostle John in Revelation 4:1 is invited into heaven; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. What did John see on the Lord's Day, and how did they get there if not caught up or raptured?

Revelation 4:2. Jesus now sitting on His own throne.
Revelation 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting.
Revelation 4:6  In the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living ones.

1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo, or raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Another group seen in heaven are the great multitude of Revelation 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. The throne of God is in heaven, and these of the multitude arrive there in some manner.

Thanks.


I'm sorry, Larry, I just now found your comment directed towards me here.

Well, for starters, after spending most of my adult life up until 1991 believing that there would be a world-ending Armageddon, complete with this almost cartoonish character called the Antichrist, I stopped in my tracks and began thinking long and hard on December 13, 1990 about this popular scenario that millions of Christian End Time prophecy enthusiasts accept so easily without question and what began as a seed of doubt in my mind at the end of 1990 about this cataclysmic scenario, God gave me the "common sense" understanding and insight that He will not operate this way during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.

This is what I posted in 2006 on another Internet prophecy discussion board when faced with similar detractors:


As many of you know (and it is my understanding), the Jewish religious leaders and the Jewish people in Israel 2,000 years ago were very much anticipating that there would be a Messiah that would fulfill the messianic prophesies of what we call the Old Testament. They believed that this Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from Rome's domination.
 
Today's Christians, instead, believe that these same messianic prophecies were fulfilled by Christ nearly 2,000 years ago in the form of a Sacrificial Lamb who died for the sins of all mankind.
 
Today, many End Times prophecy lecturers teach to many the End Times scenario of Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, and Rapture, which I did greatly subscribe to, myself, at one time. If one reads my unavoidably long narratives, in 1989, my mind concocted a very elaborate scenario for the 1992-1999 time period.
 
Fortunately, before I made too great a fool of myself, I came back down to earth in 1991 and recalled my contemplation as a child of Christ's words in Luke 21:25a, Matthew 24:29-30a, and Matthew 24:36a and once again realized that these are the key scriptures that one needs to know and study. As a child, I assumed the events of Matthew 24:29 would be fulfilled centuries later but with the Cold War going on and thermonuclear annihilation very possible, I knew that the 1960s were different times.


In other words Larry2, the scriptures that you quoted to support your cataclysmic End Times scenario that are so popular to almost everyone on this board are analogous to the erroneous belief by the Jewish religious experts of 2,000 years ago that this long-awaited Messiah would take the form of a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from the domination of Rome.

And we all know how very far off based that expectation was. It will be the same again in this go-round of prophecy interpretation.

And here are the front and back sides of business-sized cards that I first had made up in February, 1992 and have mailed to 'points far away' for the past 20 years and counting. This is the only interpretation of prophecy that one needs to be aware of pertaining to End Times prophecy, Christ telling His apostles that He will return to earth sometime after the year 1999 and not before. Also, I am quite confident that this is the cornerstone prophecy of the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11:3, as I have stated before (though, I'm afraid that to an audience of non-astronomers, it is not being understood):


 ***********************************************************


ST. JEROME EDITION (c. 1985)
Fifth Version - June 2012 (First Printing in February 1992)

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luke 21:25a
"There will be strange things happening to the sun, the moon, and the stars."

Matthew 24:29-30a
"Soon after the trouble of those days, the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers in space will be driven from their courses. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky."

******************************

Back Side


August 11, 1999 (11:43 UT to 12:23 UT) -- Total solar eclipse in Iraq and Iran. (Occurs approximately once every 35 years.)

November 18, 1999 (1:00 UT to 3:00 UT) -- Leonid 33-year periodic meteor storm over Europe and the Middle East.
Peak rate = 1,688 meteors/hour.
(Jesus was 33 when He died.)

February 11, 1999 -- Pluto becomes farther from the Sun than Neptune. (Occurs once every 248 years.)

 **********************************************************

It is a simple probability problem to calculate that the odds of a total solar eclipse in Iraq and Iran, a Leonid meteor storm, and Pluto becoming farther from the Sun than Neptune all occurring within a given 12 month period of time is only about once every 100,000 years.

Thus Christ's instructions to His apostles recorded in Luke 21:25a: "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....."


And so, since it has been a 'given' to me beginning in 1992 that there will never be this Antichrist, Armageddon, etc. scenario, then why would there be a need for a Rapture?

larry2

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it has been a 'given' to me beginning in 1992 that there will never be this Antichrist, Armageddon, etc. scenario, then why would there be a need for a Rapture?


By faith I believe that I have not seen it occur, thus it must. Signs in the heavens are something man does not control, nor does he have the corner on the market. At will God can bring about signs man has no knowledge of. There are many things you overlook that are to happen prior to the rapture you have not considered, and yet they are in process.

For one I have yet to see Daniel 12:11 fulfilled yet as precursor to the rapture, and it will. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." This is thirty days prior to the twenty-five hundred days of tribulation.

Because you no longer believe is no reason for me not to. There have been those mistaken that had it all nailed down over the years that include the Jehovah Witnesses, Heaven's Gate mass suicide to catch a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet, and The Jonestown Massacre to name a few of the ideas that have come and gone. God has always proved Himself to me and I'm not starting to call things He has promised as though they were not.

Thanks.

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Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Larry...

When the men in Matt 26:64 see Jesus go to the father, angels tell them that the next time they see Jesus (who's risen) is sitting at the right hand of the father and
coming on the clouds of heaven...

And since we know that when this happens All eyes see Jesus coming on those clouds (Rev 1:7)

in Rev 6:14-16 is the Next time we see Jesus....


So Larry answer me this please:

1. Those men in Matt 26 are told that they won't see Christ till he comes on the clouds...
So how is it that they would die and not see Christ till then?
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 17, 2012 - 19:58:55 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Larry... In 2 thess Paul tells All believers to wait with them until Christ is revealed from Heaven: aka the rapture....

Answer this: why does Paul wait until Christ is revealed from heaven during the rapture and NOT when he dies?

Just like the men (and us) of Matt 26:64 Paul waits till Jesus is revealed from heaven....


Paul is waiting Until Jesus is Revealed FROM Heaven.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Star of David said:

As many of you know (and it is my understanding), the Jewish religious leaders and the Jewish people in Israel 2,000 years ago were very much anticipating that there would be a Messiah that would fulfill the messianic prophesies of what we call the Old Testament. They believed that this Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from Rome's domination.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

this may be true but the bible taught that a suffering messiah would come first dispite what they Falsely believed....

Even though John the baptist Knew and saw the holy spirit land on Jesus and that Jesus was the one who takes away the sins of the world, he still questioned when in prison if Christ was "the one"

Why did he question something he knew?   Because of the teaching of a conquering messiah and Not a drying one.... When John was in prison he must of not thought this was going to be his fate once Jesus was on the sence....

larry2

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When the men in Matt 26:64 see Jesus go to the father, angels tell them that the next time they see Jesus (who's risen) is sitting at the right hand of the father and coming on the clouds of heaven...
Hi KB. I'm not sure where you're reading angels into the verse, but regardless Jesus is talking to unsaved of the Sanhedrin and the high priest. When are they going to see Jesus? At judgment, and when would that be?

Next I would ask you of the clouds. Who or what are they?


And since we know that when this happens All eyes see Jesus coming on those clouds (Rev 1:7)  Those men in Matt 26 are told that they won't see Christ till he comes on the clouds...  So how is it that they would die and not see Christ till then?
There are in hell awaiting judgment?

KB, I think I understand where you are attempting to take this, and I would say that there are three different groups described in Revelation 1:7; the eyes of the believers, those which pierced Him, the Jews, and all kindreds of the earth that shall wail because of Him. Are you of the opinion all see Christ at the same time? Even with believers, John see different groups arriving at different times in heaven. E.g., the 24 elders and four living ones in Revelation 4:4 and 4:6, the great multitude in Revelation 7:9 that come out of great tribulation, and the 144,000 of Revelation Chapter fourteen.

in Rev 6:14-16 is the Next time we see Jesus....
Then who are the elders of Revelation 4:4, and the living ones of Revelation of Revelation 4:6 with Jesus prior to Revelation 6:14-16?

Again you're spreading us very thin in being able to pin anything down by discussing so many different parts of Revelation at the same time.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Larry - Christ tells the priest that they will see him coming on the clouds


And you say: These unbelievers will see him at judgement day but Larry when Jesus comes on the clouds that not judgement day that's the rapture....

But we see Believers in Act 1:9-11 will ALSO see him coming on the clouds - again both see Jesus during the rapture...

So Larry answer this: why are believers in acts NOT going to see Christ until the rapture and not at death?
« Last Edit: Fri Aug 17, 2012 - 22:25:18 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

larry2

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Larry... In 2 thess Paul tells All believers to wait with them until Christ is revealed from Heaven: aka the rapture....

Answer this: why does Paul wait until Christ is revealed from heaven during the rapture and NOT when he dies?

Just like the men (and us) of Matt 26:64 Paul waits till Jesus is revealed from heaven....

Paul is waiting Until Jesus is Revealed FROM Heaven.


2 Thessalonians 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

You ask of Paul resting and talking to the troubled saints. Unless you can understand the difference in saints that will be with Jesus when He receives His own throne, and those that are caught up later out of great tribulation in troublesome times you will not see the respective groups caught up in their own order. 1 Corinthians 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Since there is a last trump, there of necessity are prior trumps as Jesus comes in the air to meet each rank as it were? If no, why?

Again I would ask who the angels are? Exactly what messengers are instrumental in judgments with Christ during His reign as King of kings, and Lord of lords? Are you familiar with who Revelation 6:1 describes? And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts (Or Living ones) saying, Come and see. Can you see yourself ruling and reigning with Christ versus being a servant in the temple of God day and night, and just what are the qualifications?

Now I'm throwing too much at a time, so I'll leave it here for the moment.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Larry says:
KB, I think I understand where you are attempting to take this, and I would say that there are three different groups described in Revelation 1:7; the eyes of the believers, those which pierced Him, the Jews, and all kindreds of the earth that shall wail because of Him. Are you of the opinion all see Christ at same time.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

the reason I say ALL eyes are ALL eyes is because:

dan 12:1-2 show both saved and unsaved awaken at Same time - at rapture

ofcourse you don't believe the dead sleep....

larry2

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Larry - Christ tells the priest that they will see him coming on the clouds
And you say: These unbelievers will see him at judgement day but Larry when Jesus comes on the clouds that not judgement day that's the rapture....
How do you know that? Can Jesus not come more than once? 1 Corinthians 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? I do not know if I missed a part of your answer somewhere as to who the clouds are, but I'll offer this: Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses . .   Even in Revelation Chapter Fourteen we see the 144,000 following Jesus every where He goes in Verse four.

But we see Believers in Act 1:9-11 will ALSO see him coming on the clouds - again both see Jesus during the rapture...

So Larry answer this: why are believers in acts NOT going to see Christ until the rapture and not at death?

Oh, does it really say that Jesus will come for them in the air approximately two thousand years after they die, and that they will not be in paradise which is in heaven until the rapture? How is it that the thief could have that privilege and not us?

larry2

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Larry says:
KB, I think I understand where you are attempting to take this, and I would say that there are three different groups described in Revelation 1:7; the eyes of the believers, those which pierced Him, the Jews, and all kindreds of the earth that shall wail because of Him. Are you of the opinion all see Christ at same time.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

the reason I say ALL eyes are ALL eyes is because:

dan 12:1-2 show both saved and unsaved awaken at Same time - at rapture

ofcourse you don't believe the dead sleep....

I believe our bodies sleep and remain in the grave or the sea, but Ecclesiastes 3:21 says "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward." What do you think of Matthew 17:3?  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
   

Lively Stone

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Larry says:
KB, I think I understand where you are attempting to take this, and I would say that there are three different groups described in Revelation 1:7; the eyes of the believers, those which pierced Him, the Jews, and all kindreds of the earth that shall wail because of Him. Are you of the opinion all see Christ at same time.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

the reason I say ALL eyes are ALL eyes is because:

dan 12:1-2 show both saved and unsaved awaken at Same time - at rapture

ofcourse you don't believe the dead sleep....

Daniel 12 is not describing the Rapture.

Offline Star of David

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it has been a 'given' to me beginning in 1992 that there will never be this Antichrist, Armageddon, etc. scenario, then why would there be a need for a Rapture?


By faith I believe that I have not seen it occur, thus it must. Signs in the heavens are something man does not control, nor does he have the corner on the market. At will God can bring about signs man has no knowledge of. There are many things you overlook that are to happen prior to the rapture you have not considered, and yet they are in process.

For one I have yet to see Daniel 12:11 fulfilled yet as precursor to the rapture, and it will. "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." This is thirty days prior to the twenty-five hundred days of tribulation.

Because you no longer believe is no reason for me not to. There have been those mistaken that had it all nailed down over the years that include the Jehovah Witnesses, Heaven's Gate mass suicide to catch a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet, and The Jonestown Massacre to name a few of the ideas that have come and gone. God has always proved Himself to me and I'm not starting to call things He has promised as though they were not.

Thanks.

Anyone who wishes to believe this Antichrist, Armageddon, etc. scenario is quite welcome to. This scenario will continue to be constantly cussed and discussed by millions from this day going forward as it has been for hundreds of years and it will always be a future scenario that never reaches the present day. And, then, I am quite confident, Christ will appear for His return to a quite ordinary earth, going through its usual ups and downs, and millions will be bumfuzzled.

But feel free to believe this dire scenario, Larry2. You will be in extremely large company.

And I still cannot believe so many cannot understand such a simple instruction that Christ left His apostles in Luke 21:25a: "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....."

It simply amuses me to no end that most Christians here embrace just about every other statement by Christ recorded in the gospels but with Luke 21:25a, they seek any interpretation other than the one that was obvious to me at the age of 10 in 1964.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 18, 2012 - 11:17:36 by Star of David »

Lively Stone

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Star of David~

What happened to you at age ten that stunted your spiritual growth concerning these matters?

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.

Offline Star of David

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Star of David~

What happened to you at age ten that stunted your spiritual growth concerning these matters?

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.


Oh, I'd say something similar to what happened to Jesus at the age of 12 when He was lost in the temple.


Luke 2:48-52

New International Version (NIV)

 
When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”
 
“Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart.  And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. 

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Larry I can't remember where you have this at but you believe the tribulation starts at the abomanation of desolation or the breaking of dan 9:27 correct?


Do you also say that Daniel 8:13-14 proves the tribulation starts at AoD because it last 2300 days from the daily sacrifice and AoD?

One more thing - who signs agreement in dan9:27?

Thanks
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 18, 2012 - 14:45:23 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

larry2

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Larry I can't remember where you have this at but you believe the tribulation starts at the abomanation of desolation or the breaking of dan 9:27 correct?

Do you also say that Daniel 8:13-14 proves the tribulation starts at AoD because it last 2300 days from the daily sacrifice and AoD?

One more thing - who signs agreement in dan9:27?

Thanks

Not quite and so I will attempt to explain what I do believe, but I do hope we can slow it down a bit so that we can agree or disagree on certain portions of scripture before proceeding.

Daniel 9:27  And he (The antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many (Jews performing the daily sacrifice again.) for one week (7 years): and in the midst (3 1/2 years) of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
Daniel 9:27 prophesies 2520 days of tribulation, or seven years @ 360 days per year.

Now when we read Daniel 8:13-14 we find there are only twenty-three hundred days. There seems to be a difference of 250 days.
13  Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14  And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. The sanctuary will be cleaned when Jesus has put down all rule.
 
Let's also read Daniel 12:11 in connection with this. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Lets count backward from the middle of the week when the AoD is set up and that puts us thirty days before the start of the seven years of tribulation.

Do you agree with this so far?

Offline comitatus1

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Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.



There most certainly will...

Right when Jesus said it would happen...

AT His Parousia.

Chris

Offline Star of David

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Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.



There most certainly will...

Right when Jesus said it would happen...

AT His Parousia.

Chris

Jesus never said that there would be a Rapture. Rapture is a manmade invention based on some very vague scriptures.

Christ only mentioned that He'll return to earth once and only once, as He described to His apostles in Matthew 24:29-30a.


Offline Trumpeter

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Hi Star of David, I'm always curious at such a blanket statement as yours. Why considering that we read in Matthew 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (egeiro - to rise).

The Apostle John in Revelation 4:1 is invited into heaven; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. What did John see on the Lord's Day, and how did they get there if not caught up or raptured?

Revelation 4:2. Jesus now sitting on His own throne.
Revelation 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting.
Revelation 4:6  In the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living ones.

1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo, or raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Another group seen in heaven are the great multitude of Revelation 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. The throne of God is in heaven, and these of the multitude arrive there in some manner.

Thanks.
Amen Larry,
The Come up hither of Rev 4:1 is synonymous with the call of 1 Thess 4:16,17:
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The word rapture, in English, comes from the Latin, rapio, rapere, or raptus, which means "a snatching away."

So from God's Word all Christians, living and dead, are going to be snatched away in the twinkling of an eye, so wether one knows it or not, one believes in the Rapture.

Offline David1689

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Hi Star of David, I'm always curious at such a blanket statement as yours. Why considering that we read in Matthew 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (egeiro - to rise).

The Apostle John in Revelation 4:1 is invited into heaven; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. What did John see on the Lord's Day, and how did they get there if not caught up or raptured?

Revelation 4:2. Jesus now sitting on His own throne.
Revelation 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting.
Revelation 4:6  In the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living ones.

1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo, or raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Another group seen in heaven are the great multitude of Revelation 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. The throne of God is in heaven, and these of the multitude arrive there in some manner.

Thanks.


I'm sorry, Larry, I just now found your comment directed towards me here.

Well, for starters, after spending most of my adult life up until 1991 believing that there would be a world-ending Armageddon, complete with this almost cartoonish character called the Antichrist, I stopped in my tracks and began thinking long and hard on December 13, 1990 about this popular scenario that millions of Christian End Time prophecy enthusiasts accept so easily without question and what began as a seed of doubt in my mind at the end of 1990 about this cataclysmic scenario, God gave me the "common sense" understanding and insight that He will not operate this way during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.

This is what I posted in 2006 on another Internet prophecy discussion board when faced with similar detractors:


As many of you know (and it is my understanding), the Jewish religious leaders and the Jewish people in Israel 2,000 years ago were very much anticipating that there would be a Messiah that would fulfill the messianic prophesies of what we call the Old Testament. They believed that this Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from Rome's domination.
 
Today's Christians, instead, believe that these same messianic prophecies were fulfilled by Christ nearly 2,000 years ago in the form of a Sacrificial Lamb who died for the sins of all mankind.
 
Today, many End Times prophecy lecturers teach to many the End Times scenario of Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, and Rapture, which I did greatly subscribe to, myself, at one time. If one reads my unavoidably long narratives, in 1989, my mind concocted a very elaborate scenario for the 1992-1999 time period.
 
Fortunately, before I made too great a fool of myself, I came back down to earth in 1991 and recalled my contemplation as a child of Christ's words in Luke 21:25a, Matthew 24:29-30a, and Matthew 24:36a and once again realized that these are the key scriptures that one needs to know and study. As a child, I assumed the events of Matthew 24:29 would be fulfilled centuries later but with the Cold War going on and thermonuclear annihilation very possible, I knew that the 1960s were different times.


In other words Larry2, the scriptures that you quoted to support your cataclysmic End Times scenario that are so popular to almost everyone on this board are analogous to the erroneous belief by the Jewish religious experts of 2,000 years ago that this long-awaited Messiah would take the form of a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from the domination of Rome.

And we all know how very far off based that expectation was. It will be the same again in this go-round of prophecy interpretation.

And here are the front and back sides of business-sized cards that I first had made up in February, 1992 and have mailed to 'points far away' for the past 20 years and counting. This is the only interpretation of prophecy that one needs to be aware of pertaining to End Times prophecy, Christ telling His apostles that He will return to earth sometime after the year 1999 and not before. Also, I am quite confident that this is the cornerstone prophecy of the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11:3, as I have stated before (though, I'm afraid that to an audience of non-astronomers, it is not being understood):


 ***********************************************************


ST. JEROME EDITION (c. 1985)
Fifth Version - June 2012 (First Printing in February 1992)

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luke 21:25a
"There will be strange things happening to the sun, the moon, and the stars."

Matthew 24:29-30a
"Soon after the trouble of those days, the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers in space will be driven from their courses. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky."

******************************

Back Side


August 11, 1999 (11:43 UT to 12:23 UT) -- Total solar eclipse in Iraq and Iran. (Occurs approximately once every 35 years.)

November 18, 1999 (1:00 UT to 3:00 UT) -- Leonid 33-year periodic meteor storm over Europe and the Middle East.
Peak rate = 1,688 meteors/hour.
(Jesus was 33 when He died.)

February 11, 1999 -- Pluto becomes farther from the Sun than Neptune. (Occurs once every 248 years.)

 **********************************************************

It is a simple probability problem to calculate that the odds of a total solar eclipse in Iraq and Iran, a Leonid meteor storm, and Pluto becoming farther from the Sun than Neptune all occurring within a given 12 month period of time is only about once every 100,000 years.

Thus Christ's instructions to His apostles recorded in Luke 21:25a: "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....."


And so, since it has been a 'given' to me beginning in 1992 that there will never be this Antichrist, Armageddon, etc. scenario, then why would there be a need for a Rapture?

I am not sure what your point is regarding the eclipse of 11 Aug 1999?

The eclipse was total in many countries.  We saw it in France on that day and we still have a Michelin map of France highlighting the passage of the eclipse across France.  We saw it in Péronne and I tried to take some photos.  I managed to take two, where the sun looks like a crescent moon when my film ran out, and I was unable to load another as it was pitcch dark.  It was very cloudy at the time and the sun barely shone through the clouds.

Offline Star of David

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Hi Star of David, I'm always curious at such a blanket statement as yours. Why considering that we read in Matthew 27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (egeiro - to rise).

The Apostle John in Revelation 4:1 is invited into heaven; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. What did John see on the Lord's Day, and how did they get there if not caught up or raptured?

Revelation 4:2. Jesus now sitting on His own throne.
Revelation 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting.
Revelation 4:6  In the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four living ones.

1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo, or raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Another group seen in heaven are the great multitude of Revelation 7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. The throne of God is in heaven, and these of the multitude arrive there in some manner.

Thanks.


I'm sorry, Larry, I just now found your comment directed towards me here.

Well, for starters, after spending most of my adult life up until 1991 believing that there would be a world-ending Armageddon, complete with this almost cartoonish character called the Antichrist, I stopped in my tracks and began thinking long and hard on December 13, 1990 about this popular scenario that millions of Christian End Time prophecy enthusiasts accept so easily without question and what began as a seed of doubt in my mind at the end of 1990 about this cataclysmic scenario, God gave me the "common sense" understanding and insight that He will not operate this way during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.

This is what I posted in 2006 on another Internet prophecy discussion board when faced with similar detractors:


As many of you know (and it is my understanding), the Jewish religious leaders and the Jewish people in Israel 2,000 years ago were very much anticipating that there would be a Messiah that would fulfill the messianic prophesies of what we call the Old Testament. They believed that this Messiah would be a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from Rome's domination.
 
Today's Christians, instead, believe that these same messianic prophecies were fulfilled by Christ nearly 2,000 years ago in the form of a Sacrificial Lamb who died for the sins of all mankind.
 
Today, many End Times prophecy lecturers teach to many the End Times scenario of Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, and Rapture, which I did greatly subscribe to, myself, at one time. If one reads my unavoidably long narratives, in 1989, my mind concocted a very elaborate scenario for the 1992-1999 time period.
 
Fortunately, before I made too great a fool of myself, I came back down to earth in 1991 and recalled my contemplation as a child of Christ's words in Luke 21:25a, Matthew 24:29-30a, and Matthew 24:36a and once again realized that these are the key scriptures that one needs to know and study. As a child, I assumed the events of Matthew 24:29 would be fulfilled centuries later but with the Cold War going on and thermonuclear annihilation very possible, I knew that the 1960s were different times.


In other words Larry2, the scriptures that you quoted to support your cataclysmic End Times scenario that are so popular to almost everyone on this board are analogous to the erroneous belief by the Jewish religious experts of 2,000 years ago that this long-awaited Messiah would take the form of a powerful Jewish warrior who would liberate Israel from the domination of Rome.

And we all know how very far off based that expectation was. It will be the same again in this go-round of prophecy interpretation.

And here are the front and back sides of business-sized cards that I first had made up in February, 1992 and have mailed to 'points far away' for the past 20 years and counting. This is the only interpretation of prophecy that one needs to be aware of pertaining to End Times prophecy, Christ telling His apostles that He will return to earth sometime after the year 1999 and not before. Also, I am quite confident that this is the cornerstone prophecy of the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11:3, as I have stated before (though, I'm afraid that to an audience of non-astronomers, it is not being understood):


 ***********************************************************


ST. JEROME EDITION (c. 1985)
Fifth Version - June 2012 (First Printing in February 1992)

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luke 21:25a
"There will be strange things happening to the sun, the moon, and the stars."

Matthew 24:29-30a
"Soon after the trouble of those days, the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers in space will be driven from their courses. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky."

******************************

Back Side


August 11, 1999 (11:43 UT to 12:23 UT) -- Total solar eclipse in Iraq and Iran. (Occurs approximately once every 35 years.)

November 18, 1999 (1:00 UT to 3:00 UT) -- Leonid 33-year periodic meteor storm over Europe and the Middle East.
Peak rate = 1,688 meteors/hour.
(Jesus was 33 when He died.)

February 11, 1999 -- Pluto becomes farther from the Sun than Neptune. (Occurs once every 248 years.)

 **********************************************************

It is a simple probability problem to calculate that the odds of a total solar eclipse in Iraq and Iran, a Leonid meteor storm, and Pluto becoming farther from the Sun than Neptune all occurring within a given 12 month period of time is only about once every 100,000 years.

Thus Christ's instructions to His apostles recorded in Luke 21:25a: "There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars....."


And so, since it has been a 'given' to me beginning in 1992 that there will never be this Antichrist, Armageddon, etc. scenario, then why would there be a need for a Rapture?

I am not sure what your point is regarding the eclipse of 11 Aug 1999?

The eclipse was total in many countries.  We saw it in France on that day and we still have a Michelin map of France highlighting the passage of the eclipse across France.  We saw it in Péronne and I tried to take some photos.  I managed to take two, where the sun looks like a crescent moon when my film ran out, and I was unable to load another as it was pitcch dark.  It was very cloudy at the time and the sun barely shone through the clouds.

My point is that when I was age 10 in 1964, after pondering Christ's statements recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a a multitude of times, I deduced that if He wasn't referring here to a total solar eclipse in a special, perhaps critical part of the world and a significant meteor shower that were close together in time and indentifiable by astronomers beforehand, then there is NO sensible explanation for the celestial events described by Him in Matthew 24:29 that makes any sense at all, given our present knowledge in astronomy and physics.  The path of totality passing through Iraq and Iran is a location that has been a religious and political powderkeg since the beginning of time, as most people know, thus quite fulfilling this criteria. 

As I have posted before, because nearly all Christians ignore Christ's statements recorded in Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a and have such little interest in astronomy, nearly everyone was asleep at the switch when Matthew 24:29 actually occurred in 1999.


Lively Stone

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Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.



There most certainly will...

Right when Jesus said it would happen...

AT His Parousia.

Chris

Jesus never said that there would be a Rapture. Rapture is a manmade invention based on some very vague scriptures.

Christ only mentioned that He'll return to earth once and only once, as He described to His apostles in Matthew 24:29-30a.

The rapture of the Church is not the return of Christ. It is because you, like so many, equate the two events as one that you have trouble with it.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 11, 2013 - 18:18:03 by Lively Stone »

Offline Star of David

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Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.



There most certainly will...

Right when Jesus said it would happen...

AT His Parousia.

Chris

Jesus never said that there would be a Rapture. Rapture is a manmade invention based on some very vague scriptures.

Christ only mentioned that He'll return to earth once and only once, as He described to His apostles in Matthew 24:29-30a.

The rapture of the Church is not the return of Christ. It is because you, like so many, equate the two events as one that you have trouble with it.

Lively Stone, for the umpteenth time, there shall never be this ridiculous event called a Rapture.


Offline LouNormy

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While on Google I ran across two articles and would love reactions to them. They are "Pretrib Rapture Pride" and "Margaret Macdonald's Rapture Chart." Thanks and Lord bless.

Lively Stone

  • Guest


Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.



There most certainly will...

Right when Jesus said it would happen...

AT His Parousia.

Chris

Jesus never said that there would be a Rapture. Rapture is a manmade invention based on some very vague scriptures.

Christ only mentioned that He'll return to earth once and only once, as He described to His apostles in Matthew 24:29-30a.

The rapture of the Church is not the return of Christ. It is because you, like so many, equate the two events as one that you have trouble with it.

Lively Stone, for the umpteenth time, there shall never be this ridiculous event called a Rapture.

I wonder how ridiculous you will think it is when it happens.

Offline Star of David

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Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.



There most certainly will...

Right when Jesus said it would happen...

AT His Parousia.

Chris

Jesus never said that there would be a Rapture. Rapture is a manmade invention based on some very vague scriptures.

Christ only mentioned that He'll return to earth once and only once, as He described to His apostles in Matthew 24:29-30a.

The rapture of the Church is not the return of Christ. It is because you, like so many, equate the two events as one that you have trouble with it.

Lively Stone, for the umpteenth time, there shall never be this ridiculous event called a Rapture.

I wonder how ridiculous you will think it is when it happens.

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see, won't we, Lively Stone? You and I will just have to have a friendly wager (involving nothing of material value) on how the Last Days leading up until Christ's return will unfold.

As an aside, it has been my observation over the years that women have far more difficulty not hewing to the popular party line of 'Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, Rapture, etc., etc. scenario" than men do. Not many men can accomplish this but I do not think that I have met any women who are interested in End Times prophecy that originate their own independent thoughts on the subject.

Of course, as I have stated numerous times, I believe that Christian astronomers living at the right time (which is now) have an 'unfair advantage' over Christian non-astronomers in understanding God's true plan for the years leading up until the day of Christ's return to earth.





Lively Stone

  • Guest


Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.



There most certainly will...

Right when Jesus said it would happen...

AT His Parousia.

Chris

Jesus never said that there would be a Rapture. Rapture is a manmade invention based on some very vague scriptures.

Christ only mentioned that He'll return to earth once and only once, as He described to His apostles in Matthew 24:29-30a.

The rapture of the Church is not the return of Christ. It is because you, like so many, equate the two events as one that you have trouble with it.

Lively Stone, for the umpteenth time, there shall never be this ridiculous event called a Rapture.

I wonder how ridiculous you will think it is when it happens.

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see, won't we, Lively Stone? You and I will just have to have a friendly wager (involving nothing of material value) on how the Last Days leading up until Christ's return will unfold.

As an aside, it has been my observation over the years that women have far more difficulty not hewing to the popular party line of 'Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, Rapture, etc., etc. scenario" than men do. Not many men can accomplish this but I do not think that I have met any women who are interested in End Times prophecy that originate their own independent thoughts on the subject.

Of course, as I have stated numerous times, I believe that Christian astronomers living at the right time (which is now) have an 'unfair advantage' over Christian non-astronomers in understanding God's true plan for the years leading up until the day of Christ's return to earth.

There is no gender relationship to how one views eschatology. Astronomers don't have a clue. Eschatology isn't all about astronomy. When a person puts all his eggs in one basket, he's at a disadvantage.

SSGTNance

  • Guest


Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.



There most certainly will...

Right when Jesus said it would happen...

AT His Parousia.

Chris

Jesus never said that there would be a Rapture. Rapture is a manmade invention based on some very vague scriptures.

Christ only mentioned that He'll return to earth once and only once, as He described to His apostles in Matthew 24:29-30a.

The rapture of the Church is not the return of Christ. It is because you, like so many, equate the two events as one that you have trouble with it.

Lively Stone, for the umpteenth time, there shall never be this ridiculous event called a Rapture.

I wonder how ridiculous you will think it is when it happens.

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see, won't we, Lively Stone? You and I will just have to have a friendly wager (involving nothing of material value) on how the Last Days leading up until Christ's return will unfold.

As an aside, it has been my observation over the years that women have far more difficulty not hewing to the popular party line of 'Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, Rapture, etc., etc. scenario" than men do. Not many men can accomplish this but I do not think that I have met any women who are interested in End Times prophecy that originate their own independent thoughts on the subject.

Of course, as I have stated numerous times, I believe that Christian astronomers living at the right time (which is now) have an 'unfair advantage' over Christian non-astronomers in understanding God's true plan for the years leading up until the day of Christ's return to earth.

"...how the Last Days leading up until Christ's return will unfold."

They're unfolding just as The Lord Jesus Christ promised they would.

But let me ask you this:  What if you DID know exactly when He was coming, what good does that do you?  I mean, the real issue about His coming is being ready for Him.  Those who believe He is coming soon prepare themselves by purifying themselves.

So why not prepare for Him by purifying your heart to be perfected in love?
I mean, what if He shows up sooner than you expect?  What then if you haven't made yourself ready?

Michael A Nance

Offline Star of David

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Who Among You Believe That There Will Be A Rapture Prior to Christ's Return?


I, myself, am certain that there will never be a Rapture.



There most certainly will...

Right when Jesus said it would happen...

AT His Parousia.

Chris

Jesus never said that there would be a Rapture. Rapture is a manmade invention based on some very vague scriptures.

Christ only mentioned that He'll return to earth once and only once, as He described to His apostles in Matthew 24:29-30a.

The rapture of the Church is not the return of Christ. It is because you, like so many, equate the two events as one that you have trouble with it.

Lively Stone, for the umpteenth time, there shall never be this ridiculous event called a Rapture.

I wonder how ridiculous you will think it is when it happens.

Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see, won't we, Lively Stone? You and I will just have to have a friendly wager (involving nothing of material value) on how the Last Days leading up until Christ's return will unfold.

As an aside, it has been my observation over the years that women have far more difficulty not hewing to the popular party line of 'Antichrist, Armageddon, Seven Years of Tribulation, Rapture, etc., etc. scenario" than men do. Not many men can accomplish this but I do not think that I have met any women who are interested in End Times prophecy that originate their own independent thoughts on the subject.

Of course, as I have stated numerous times, I believe that Christian astronomers living at the right time (which is now) have an 'unfair advantage' over Christian non-astronomers in understanding God's true plan for the years leading up until the day of Christ's return to earth.

"...how the Last Days leading up until Christ's return will unfold."

They're unfolding just as The Lord Jesus Christ promised they would.

But let me ask you this:  What if you DID know exactly when He was coming, what good does that do you?  I mean, the real issue about His coming is being ready for Him.  Those who believe He is coming soon prepare themselves by purifying themselves.

So why not prepare for Him by purifying your heart to be perfected in love?
I mean, what if He shows up sooner than you expect?  What then if you haven't made yourself ready?

Michael A Nance

You raise a good point, Michael.

You stated:


"...how the Last Days leading up until Christ's return will unfold."

They're unfolding just as The Lord Jesus Christ promised they would.

And I agree with you. In Matthew 24:37-39, Jesus told His apostles,

              "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,  and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be."

which, upon close examination, describes a very ordinary world without tribulation, Antichrist, etc. on the day that Christ returns. But His return will shock many people because, as I have said, Christians are woefully unaware of Luke 21:25a & Matthew 24:29-30a and the basics of the science of astronomy.

          ******************************************************
          ******************************************************


Copied and pasted below is from what I posted on my personal blog page in 2005:


Despite my best efforts beginning in 1994, by 1997 it was becoming apparent that I was not going to find an interested publisher for the 800 page manuscript that I wrote in 1993 before the events described by Christ in Matthew 24:29 would be fulfilled in 1999. I, therefore, lowered my sights by submitting the abstract below to several theological journals in 1997-1998:

********************************************************

ABSTRACT

An Interpretation of Matthew 24:29

Submitted by Adam Smith (a pseudonym)

My article is the result of what essentially was a research project for me beginning in 1963 when I was an avid nine-year-old astronomer. After intense contemplation of Christ's words recorded in Luke 21:25a and Matthew 24:29-30a, I deduced that the key to deriving the general time frame for Christ's return to earth hinged on a sound and reasonable understanding of the events described in Matthew 24:29. Concurrently, the state of knowledge in the sciences of astronomy and physics suggested that the literal fulfillment of these events was impossible and illogical. Between 1965 and 1990, I uncovered the confluence of three diverse celestial events in the year 1999 that completely coincides with an allegorical interpretation of Matthew 24:29. I explain why there is a 99.99965 percent probability that this scripture is completely fulfilled in 1999 and briefly speculate on the subsequent ramifications for our world.

Keywords and Phrases

Astronomy, Eschatology, Parousia, Prophecy, Second Coming of Christ

*********************************************************

Here again, all of the theological journals that I contacted refused to consider such an article on my behalf. This abstract was, however, useful as the second page of my four page mass mailing letter to the embassies of 175 foreign nations dated April 16, 1998.

Therefore, despite my best efforts, scripture will be fulfilled: "His coming will be like a thief in the night" (at least, it will be to almost everyone).

            *********************************************
            *********************************************



You also asked me the question:  "What if you DID know exactly when He was coming, what good does that do you?"

Well, even if one does know the general time frame of Christ's return (as I have known since early 1989), he or she really needs to have their house in order with God, regardless, as any person can die at any time.

But more specifically, the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3 intuitively need to know the fulfillment of Matthew 24:29 in 1999 so that they can inform the world-at-large of Christ's return in the not-too-distant future so that they can try to have a cohesive effect on shaping world events during the years leading up to Christ's return to earth.