Author Topic: "One Baptism" (Read 16704 times)

winsome · « **Reply #285 on:** April 06, 2012, 01:57:29 PM »

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 12:54:57 PM

Quote from: winsome on April 06, 2012, 10:52:29 AM
Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM

1)Forget what the Jewish ritual was, The Christian baptism is by tottal immersion, See the Greek meaning.

Prove it. there is nothing in scripture that definitively defines Christian baptism as total immersion.

Even if you could find one case that wouldn’t prove that pouring water is not admissible.

I’m not denying that some baptisms may have been total immersion.

All I’m saying is that pouring is valid as well.

As I pointed out the first century liturgical document the Didache (also called the Teaching of The Apostles) says:
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days" (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).

You see – running water is preferable, but pouring is acceptable. This was first century, during the time of the apostles.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
2)I didn't contradict myself about the people being baptised into Moses, I said it wasn't the Christian baptism It was their idetification with Moses, They WHOLY followed Moses through the sea.

It was usage of the word baptism

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
3)The tables in Mk 7: 4??, Is a mistranslation, The Greek word is "Kline", It is only used in Mk 7: 4 and it means a bed or couch.
When you put your bedding in the washing machine, do you only put some of it in, Or all of it??.
When you wash your car, Do you leave most of it?? Or do you wash all of it??.
To wash somthing means to wash it all,.
To be baptised, ALL of you has to be submersed.

You are always claiming that the translators mistranslated, even from your KJV.

So do you think they put their couches into a big pool?

And now with the car you are saying it doesn’t have to be immersed just washed all over . MAKE UP YOUR MIND

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
4)If you are saying Strongs said baptisn is to only wet a part of a person, Then he is contradicting himself Because you said he said baptism meand to make whelmed.
The Greek said to Overwhelm [Compleatly cover.

You are looking for something to tell you that you are baptised when the fact is, YOUR NOT.
So when Strong disagrees with you then you dump Strong.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
5)You said baptism in 1 Pet 3: 21 isn't getting wet, But a pure concience, So what you are Saying is, you don't need to be baptised, And baptism doesn't save.
I DIDN’T say that.

I said that Peter was saying, as he does, that it’s not the washing off of dirt, but an appeal to a clear conscience. Baptism is not about getting physically clean but spiritually clean – the forgiveness of sin.

And Baptism does save. Peter very clearly says it does.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
6)Yes, I have evidence that Paul went to some water, The word and meaning, "BAPTSIM".
Paul would have know what baptism means.

No you haven’t proved that Paul was totally immersed.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
7)The sprincling of water in Eze 36: 25--27. Is the rebirth, Not water baptism.
It’s water baptism.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
You can argue as much as you want to, But it won't change the fact that baptism means a tottal immersion.
It can be but not necessarily.

1) I have proved that baptism is by tottal immersion from the original Greek New Testament texts.

2)Strong, Contradist himself, He said baptism in to make welmed, [To overwelm].
I agree with that, The overwelme means to be tottaly immersed.
Then you say he said to wet only a part of a person.
That is what the Greek disagrees with.

3)You are just putting your own wrong beliefs, And they don't change the fact that your not baptised.

I've just proved that baptism is described as pouring

Sorry you lost that one.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #285 on:** April 06, 2012, 01:57:29 PM »

winsome · « **Reply #286 on:** April 06, 2012, 01:58:50 PM »

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 01:02:05 PM

Quote from: winsome on April 06, 2012, 11:01:20 AM
‘While meeting with them, he enjoined them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for “the promise of the Father about which you have heard me speak; for John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #286 on:** April 06, 2012, 01:58:50 PM »

grace · « **Reply #287 on:** April 06, 2012, 02:51:56 PM »

Quote from: winsome on April 06, 2012, 01:54:50 PM

The argument I have been presented with is that baptise always means immerse.

Here baptism is described as pouring.

Sorry you lost that one.

Again Water baptism is not in that scripture! No where in the scriptures can you show that WATER BAPTISM by sprinkling or pouring!

fenton · « **Reply #288 on:** April 06, 2012, 03:49:10 PM »

Quote from: winsome on April 06, 2012, 02:56:19 AM

Quote from: fenton on April 05, 2012, 06:38:06 PM
Quote from: winsome on April 05, 2012, 02:14:36 AM
Quote from: fenton on April 04, 2012, 02:16:56 PM
if infant baptism is ok, then are not the parents making the babies decision for them?

What decisions?

the decision to baptise a baby, would that not be like God making a decision for you, wait a minute your an adult, no one can make a decision for you

Sorry, I'm not following your point here. What decision would God be making for you?

if you as a parent have made the decision to baptise a baby you are making his salvation decision for him are you not.?

Charles Sloan · « **Reply #289 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:46:10 PM »

Winsome,

How is repeating "sorry you lost that one" edifying to this discussion?

If anything I've noticed you interjecting water baptism into many verses that have nothing to do with water baptism to prove that waster baptism doesn't have to be accomplished by baptism (baptiso). This practice would be called Eisegesis (from Greek εἰς "into" and ending from exegesis from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out") is the process of misinterpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that it introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases into and onto the text. The act is often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation bias in accordance with his or her pre-held agenda.

When you get a chance check it out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis

Christian Forums and Message Board · « **Reply #289 on:** April 06, 2012, 07:46:10 PM »

Scott1 · « **Reply #290 on:** April 06, 2012, 09:10:38 PM »

Hi all...

Mark 7:3

Wondering if one of you Koine readers can tell me what is used for "to wash" in this verse.

Thanks

Charles Sloan · « **Reply #291 on:** April 06, 2012, 10:09:01 PM »

This is the site I use http://www.blueletterbible.org/

The passage broke down is here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=7&v=3&t=KJV#conc/3

The word is νίπτω (niptō) and means:

1) to wash

2) to wash one's self

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3538&t=KJV

Scott1 · « **Reply #292 on:** April 06, 2012, 10:43:17 PM »

Wow ... Thanks for the link!

Scott1 · « **Reply #293 on:** April 06, 2012, 11:31:08 PM »

Quote from: Charles Sloan on April 06, 2012, 10:09:01 PM

This is the site I use http://www.blueletterbible.org/

The passage broke down is here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=7&v=3&t=KJV#conc/3

The word is νίπτω (niptō) and means:

1) to wash

2) to wash one's self

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3538&t=KJV

Again, thanks for the link (I even downloaded the iphone app!).

Another question... this time about the following verse: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=7&v=3&t=KJV#conc/4

"the Pharisees, and all the Jews" of verse three continue on in verse four to wash (baptizō) their hands.

Jews, however, don't seem to ritually wash their hands by "full immersion":

In Temple times there were elaborate rules in connection with ritual impurity. If a person had been rendered impure through having come into contact, say, with a dead rodent, he contaminated sacred food such as the tithe given to the priests, which must then not be eaten. The way in which contamination of this kind could be removed was through immersion in a ritual bath.

But the sages imposed in certain circumstances the minor form of contamination known as "hand contamination" in which only the hands, not the whole body, was contaminated and for this to be removed total immersion was not required, only the ritual washing of the hands. Since there was a good deal of priests' tithe in ancient Palestine which could easily come into contact with the hands, the sages eventually ordained that the hands of every Jew, not only the hands of a priest, must be washed ritually before meals.

The procedure is to pour water out from a cup or glass first twice over the right hand and then twice over the left hand--care being taken that the unwashed hands do not touch the water used for the washing. The hands are then dried with a towel before partaking of the meal. A benediction is recited over the washing of the hands: "Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified us with Thy commandments and has commanded us concerning the washing of the hands."
-By Rabbi Louis Jacobs
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/practices/Ritual/Prayer/Blessings/Hand_Washing.shtml

While I am a Jew by birth, I was never educated about Judaism.... if this information is not how things were done in ancient Israel, I am sure someone more knowledgeable about the topic will correct me.

Otherwise, it would seem that "baptizō" can mean something other than total immersion.

Peace in Christ,
Scott

Charles Sloan · « **Reply #294 on:** April 07, 2012, 12:04:31 AM »

In the context of water baptism it is clearly immersion just by definition of the word in Greek. When used in context of washing hands it seems it can be used either way, niptō or baptizō. If you could find a passage when water baptism is characterized the same as washing it would make for a more compelling argument. The only passages I have found that used G907 or G909 like that is the one you mentioned (Mark 7:4) Mark 7:8, Luk 11:38, Hebrews 6:2 and Hebrews 9:10. None of which describe baptism as washing or dipping or anything outside of the designation of the word itself. I guess another way to look at it is like this, you can wash something by immersing it; but you cannot baptize without immersing it.

On ritual hand washing and Jewish traditions, I can't speak to that. I just draw conclusions from the Greek and Hebrew as it is written.

That is a great site by the way, glad I could share that with you.

Scott1 · « **Reply #295 on:** April 07, 2012, 12:10:14 AM »

Quote from: Charles Sloan on April 07, 2012, 12:04:31 AM

In the context of water baptism it is clearly immersion just by definition of the word in Greek. When used in context of washing hands it seems it can be used either way, niptō or baptizō. If you could find a passage when water baptism is characterized the same as washing it would make for a more compelling argument. The only passages I have found that used G907 or G909 like that is the one you mentioned (Mark 7:4) Mark 7:8, Luk 11:38, Hebrews 6:2 and Hebrews 9:10. None of which describe baptism as washing or dipping or anything outside of the designation of the word itself.

I guess another way to look at it is like this, you can wash something by immersing it; but you cannot baptize without immersing it.

That is a great site by the way, glad I could share that with you.

I think I understand...

The Greek is useful, but context is also important.

Thanks again.

Scott1 · « **Reply #296 on:** April 07, 2012, 12:41:16 AM »

Ok, next one! (I love this new app!)

Acts 9:18 (ASV) And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized;

So this is Paul - in Damascus - in the house of Judas.

How does baptizō here mean full immersion in water?

Does one just assume that this Judas fellow had a giant baptismal font in his house on Straight St.?

Or is this not a baptism with water at all?

Dr. Truth · « **Reply #297 on:** April 07, 2012, 01:42:02 AM »

Quote from: winsome on April 06, 2012, 01:57:29 PM

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: winsome on April 06, 2012, 10:52:29 AM
Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM

1)Forget what the Jewish ritual was, The Christian baptism is by tottal immersion, See the Greek meaning.

Prove it. there is nothing in scripture that definitively defines Christian baptism as total immersion.

Even if you could find one case that wouldn’t prove that pouring water is not admissible.

I’m not denying that some baptisms may have been total immersion.

All I’m saying is that pouring is valid as well.

As I pointed out the first century liturgical document the Didache (also called the Teaching of The Apostles) says:
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days" (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).

You see – running water is preferable, but pouring is acceptable. This was first century, during the time of the apostles.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
2)I didn't contradict myself about the people being baptised into Moses, I said it wasn't the Christian baptism It was their idetification with Moses, They WHOLY followed Moses through the sea.

It was usage of the word baptism

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
3)The tables in Mk 7: 4??, Is a mistranslation, The Greek word is "Kline", It is only used in Mk 7: 4 and it means a bed or couch.
When you put your bedding in the washing machine, do you only put some of it in, Or all of it??.
When you wash your car, Do you leave most of it?? Or do you wash all of it??.
To wash somthing means to wash it all,.
To be baptised, ALL of you has to be submersed.

You are always claiming that the translators mistranslated, even from your KJV.

So do you think they put their couches into a big pool?

And now with the car you are saying it doesn’t have to be immersed just washed all over . MAKE UP YOUR MIND

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
4)If you are saying Strongs said baptisn is to only wet a part of a person, Then he is contradicting himself Because you said he said baptism meand to make whelmed.
The Greek said to Overwhelm [Compleatly cover.

You are looking for something to tell you that you are baptised when the fact is, YOUR NOT.
So when Strong disagrees with you then you dump Strong.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
5)You said baptism in 1 Pet 3: 21 isn't getting wet, But a pure concience, So what you are Saying is, you don't need to be baptised, And baptism doesn't save.
I DIDN’T say that.

I said that Peter was saying, as he does, that it’s not the washing off of dirt, but an appeal to a clear conscience. Baptism is not about getting physically clean but spiritually clean – the forgiveness of sin.

And Baptism does save. Peter very clearly says it does.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
6)Yes, I have evidence that Paul went to some water, The word and meaning, "BAPTSIM".
Paul would have know what baptism means.

No you haven’t proved that Paul was totally immersed.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
7)The sprincling of water in Eze 36: 25--27. Is the rebirth, Not water baptism.
It’s water baptism.

Quote from: Dr. Truth on April 06, 2012, 09:12:28 AM
You can argue as much as you want to, But it won't change the fact that baptism means a tottal immersion.
It can be but not necessarily.

1) I have proved that baptism is by tottal immersion from the original Greek New Testament texts.

2)Strong, Contradist himself, He said baptism in to make welmed, [To overwelm].
I agree with that, The overwelme means to be tottaly immersed.
Then you say he said to wet only a part of a person.
That is what the Greek disagrees with.

3)You are just putting your own wrong beliefs, And they don't change the fact that your not baptised.

I've just proved that baptism is described as pouring

Sorry you lost that one.

You haven't proved anything.
If you go outside when it pours down with rain, You will notce the whole earth is wet as it is compleatly covered with water.

Baptism means, Totaly immersed in water..FACT.

Why do you call yourself, "Winsome"?? You haven't won any yet.

Dr. Truth · « **Reply #298 on:** April 07, 2012, 01:48:39 AM »

Quote from: winsome on April 06, 2012, 01:54:50 PM

Quote from: grace on April 06, 2012, 11:13:21 AM
Quote from: winsome on April 06, 2012, 11:01:20 AM
‘While meeting with them, he enjoined them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for “the promise of the Father about which you have heard me speak; for John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Dr. Truth · « **Reply #299 on:** April 07, 2012, 01:59:07 AM »

Quote from: Scott1 on April 06, 2012, 09:10:38 PM

Hi all...

Mark 7:3

Wondering if one of you Koine readers can tell me what is used for "to wash" in this verse.

Thanks

The original Greek word for, "Wash" In Mk 7: 3. is, "Nipto",
It means to,
"Bathe, wash, It means to wash a part of the body", Mk 7: 3, The hands.

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