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Offline JohnDB

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jan 13, 2014 - 16:09:36 »
An agnostic is someone who doesn't have any knowledge of God and is unsure of God's existence.
An atheist is someone opposed to God.

You cannot recreate your own definitions otherwise there is no basis of communication.

So with this same thought line.....

On what basis do you deem something as.good?
what standard do you use? Yourself or someone's else?

All western societies started off of Judeo-Christian principles and have since drifted...so even if you claim societies...

Just a starting point of discussion.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #35 on: Mon Jan 13, 2014 - 16:09:36 »

Offline Red Baker

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jan 13, 2014 - 16:25:02 »
Quote
Though, I probably won't be able to finish as I expect I will be getting banned for answering your questions.

You may not, and I hope that you do not.  I have dealt with people like before, since my father-in-law is maybe more so an Athesist, than you ever thought of being. I have spoken with him many times in the last forty six years, until he gave up, and just got frustrated, because he had many questions, that he himself had answers for.  But, when it all comes down to it, even believers must rely on faith, because through faith alone, do we understand that the worlds were framed by the Almighty power of God. (Hebrews 11:1-3) We will never by our little minds search out and know God, because of his greatness, is past searching out.  I have so many things that I could put before you, but I believe you have enough for the moment.  I trust that you come out on the other side a wise man, and not found to be a fool at the end.  We all will be one or the other, when we take our last breath.

RB

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #36 on: Mon Jan 13, 2014 - 16:25:02 »

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #37 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 05:12:09 »
Im thinking my question was too tough as he gave up...

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #38 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 11:09:05 »
I think you could answer my question without fear of getting banned.  :-)

OK cool, I'm actually going to enjoy this. Some of the things you mentioned I haven't heard before (so I get to learn). Thank you, but at the moment I'm at work so I can't get into too much detail. I'll nick pick some of the ones I know off the top of my head.

Don't confuse me with Red Baker.  I just had the one question.   Cheers.

Whoops... Too late, my bad  ::shrug::

As for your question; I am by no means a scientist and will not pretend to be. I have not mastered the the big bang theory yet, but I am in the process. Basically, I believe there is always rational explanation. Though, as an agnostic I have no problem admitting I don't really know. But ignorance is not an excuse of God, so in my opinion, we just haven't discovered (or I am unfamiliar with) the science behind "the beginning".

Interesting.  So you have never thought about how the universe began, or whether it began?  Or are you saying that you can't define how the universe began and you aren't an expert at knowing how science currently tries to explain how the universe began?

One doesn't have to master the big bang theory to understand it's general concept.  Here is the general concept of the Big bang theory.  Based on the red-shift of far-distant objects, scientists have deduced that the universe is expanding.  Extrapolating backwards, it makes sense to believe that, at each moment in time, the universe was more and more compact, and if you go back far enough in time, all the mass and energy in the universe existed in a tiny point, before which time it purportedly did not exist at all.

This is the prevailing belief of science today.  Deducing how the universe came about itself is (scientists seem to concede) outside the realm of scientific study, and in a field they call "metaphysics".  So basically, though some have tried to explain how the universe created itself, there is no established belief today on how the universe was once "nothing" and became "something".

One can throw up their hands and say "I don't know how" but that is, frankly, a cop out.  Agnostics tend to dream as well, and the inability of science to answer all questions should at least lead you to wonder.

Now a new question comes to mind.  You call yourself an "agnostic atheist" and I respect your choice to label yourself as such.  But why do you associate your agnosticism with atheism?  Since you don't know about science either, then why don't you call yourself an "agnostic ascientist" to coin a term.  Which would mean, "I don't know if science can explain it or not, and we can't know if science can explain it or not".  Why does your agnosticism have to specifically do with God?  Would you reject science if you found that science cannot explain everything, or challenge scientists about their findings if you believed such?

Another question, why do you believe that everything has a "rational explanation"?  And do you believe that said "rational explanation" would not sometimes include that something was done by an all-powerful God?

First of all, FOR THE LOVE OF HUMANITY PLEASE talk to someone about getting a mobile version of this site. It's becoming a burden to browse, and answer questions already...

OK, I got that out of my system. So, for the third time of retyping this:
I merely am claiming to not be an expert on the subject. I do have a basic understanding, which grows by the day because enjoy reading about this stuff in my spare time. Now, you are also missing a big part according to theoretical physics: the multi verse. (I originally explained this concept, but am quickly becoming irritated as I'm constantly having to retype this. So forgive me, but look it up on your own).
Now I don't just blindly follow science as a religion. I do challenge beliefs, I do think for myself, and yes I definitely wonder.
As for my claim of agnostic atheism, that is something of an intellectual honesty. I can not, by definition of atheism, truly be one. Why? Because that would require me to KNOW there is no God. I can not, in all honesty, say that I 100% KNOW without a doubt that there is no God. That is, once again by definition, impossible. Science does not disprove God's existence, it only allows you to question it. So the agnostic term is used correctly.
As for my "rational explanation" statement, by definition the answer to the question must be explainable. So saying "God did it" is not an explanation, but an excuse of ignorance. (in my opinion, it is not my intent to come off as harsh)

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #39 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 11:26:02 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?

Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #39 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 11:26:02 »



Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #40 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 11:28:13 »
I think you could answer my question without fear of getting banned.  :-)

OK cool, I'm actually going to enjoy this. Some of the things you mentioned I haven't heard before (so I get to learn). Thank you, but at the moment I'm at work so I can't get into too much detail. I'll nick pick some of the ones I know off the top of my head.

Don't confuse me with Red Baker.  I just had the one question.   Cheers.

Whoops... Too late, my bad  ::shrug::

As for your question; I am by no means a scientist and will not pretend to be. I have not mastered the the big bang theory yet, but I am in the process. Basically, I believe there is always rational explanation. Though, as an agnostic I have no problem admitting I don't really know. But ignorance is not an excuse of God, so in my opinion, we just haven't discovered (or I am unfamiliar with) the science behind "the beginning".
 

Nor will we in this life, because Gods mind is something that we can never comprehend in this life.

Debatable. Maybe not "this life" referring to our generation, but science will continue to answer questions long after we're all dead...

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #41 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 11:36:29 »
An agnostic is someone who doesn't have any knowledge of God and is unsure of God's existence.
An atheist is someone opposed to God.

You cannot recreate your own definitions otherwise there is no basis of communication.

So with this same thought line.....

On what basis do you deem something as.good?
what standard do you use? Yourself or someone's else?

All western societies started off of Judeo-Christian principles and have since drifted...so even if you claim societies...

Just a starting point of discussion.

I am by no means "recreating" my own definitions. Refer to my earlier response to Catholica for more. Still don't believe me? Look it up.

As for morals... that's tricky. That's more of a psychological preference. Everything is a shade of gray...
Although, I will argue that you do not "need" a God to have morals. But, what are morals? We are the only species to have these. I'd rather not get too into this topic, just because there is no real answer. There will always be an exception, and everything is gray... so not really worth a debate if you just are arguing opinions...

Offline Helen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #42 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 11:41:53 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?


Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.


OK, here:  http://www.setterfield.org/Ark/The_Ark.html and here: http://www.setterfield.org/Genesis_1-11/Introduction.html

Skip any of our Christian comments if you like and simply go for the science.  There's plenty of it.

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #43 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 11:44:03 »
Quote
Though, I probably won't be able to finish as I expect I will be getting banned for answering your questions.

You may not, and I hope that you do not.  I have dealt with people like before, since my father-in-law is maybe more so an Athesist, than you ever thought of being. I have spoken with him many times in the last forty six years, until he gave up, and just got frustrated, because he had many questions, that he himself had answers for.  But, when it all comes down to it, even believers must rely on faith, because through faith alone, do we understand that the worlds were framed by the Almighty power of God. (Hebrews 11:1-3) We will never by our little minds search out and know God, because of his greatness, is past searching out.  I have so many things that I could put before you, but I believe you have enough for the moment.  I trust that you come out on the other side a wise man, and not found to be a fool at the end.  We all will be one or the other, when we take our last breath.

RB

Although I do not believe in your justification, I do agree with your last statement. In my opinion, I think Marcus Aurelius said it best:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #44 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 11:45:48 »
Im thinking my question was too tough as he gave up...

I am thinking that as a global moderator it's a bit sad that you can't see I haven't been online to see your question.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #45 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 11:49:56 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?


Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.


OK, here:  http://www.setterfield.org/Ark/The_Ark.html and here: http://www.setterfield.org/Genesis_1-11/Introduction.html

Skip any of our Christian comments if you like and simply go for the science.  There's plenty of it.


I have said I will not attempt to disprove the Bible in this thread, in respect to the forum rules.
I will say, however that it is mathematically impossible. If you wish to hear my proof, then please PM me.
(unless I can't do that either, Mods help?)

Offline chosenone

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #46 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:14:24 »
An agnostic is someone who doesn't have any knowledge of God and is unsure of God's existence.
An atheist is someone opposed to God.

You cannot recreate your own definitions otherwise there is no basis of communication.

So with this same thought line.....

On what basis do you deem something as.good?
what standard do you use? Yourself or someone's else?

All western societies started off of Judeo-Christian principles and have since drifted...so even if you claim societies...

Just a starting point of discussion.

I am by no means "recreating" my own definitions. Refer to my earlier response to Catholica for more. Still don't believe me? Look it up.

As for morals... that's tricky. That's more of a psychological preference. Everything is a shade of gray...
Although, I will argue that you do not "need" a God to have morals. But, what are morals? We are the only species to have these. I'd rather not get too into this topic, just because there is no real answer. There will always be an exception, and everything is gray... so not really worth a debate if you just are arguing opinions...
 

There is a real answer of course, and that is that the God who made us knows what is best for us. He gives us clear boundaries, and I have learnt in my life that if you want to have a good and blessed life, you take notice of them. We can all live how we like, but there are always bad consequences to bad decisions. He warns us not to do things for our own good, and for the good of those around us.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #47 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:23:18 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?

Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.


 No one is ever going to be able to  answer all questions partly because we don't know how everything happened. A persons level of education has nothing to do with it. In the end I have found that the more I get to Know My Father, the more I trust Him(40 years as a believer now and never doubted His existence) and I am happy to leave all the details to Him now. I don't need to know all the answers, and none of us can ever understand more than a tiny part of God and the universe anyway.
To blame some poor person who was doing their best, for you loosing your faith, seems somewhat mean. My husband is a scientist, and he asks God things ALL THE TME; AND he gets amazing answers. Ask God if you want to know.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #48 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:24:15 »
Quote
Though, I probably won't be able to finish as I expect I will be getting banned for answering your questions.

You may not, and I hope that you do not.  I have dealt with people like before, since my father-in-law is maybe more so an Athesist, than you ever thought of being. I have spoken with him many times in the last forty six years, until he gave up, and just got frustrated, because he had many questions, that he himself had answers for.  But, when it all comes down to it, even believers must rely on faith, because through faith alone, do we understand that the worlds were framed by the Almighty power of God. (Hebrews 11:1-3) We will never by our little minds search out and know God, because of his greatness, is past searching out.  I have so many things that I could put before you, but I believe you have enough for the moment.  I trust that you come out on the other side a wise man, and not found to be a fool at the end.  We all will be one or the other, when we take our last breath.

RB

Although I do not believe in your justification, I do agree with your last statement. In my opinion, I think Marcus Aurelius said it best:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

Well Marcus clearly didn't understand the one true God.........

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #49 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:25:48 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?


Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.


OK, here:  http://www.setterfield.org/Ark/The_Ark.html and here: http://www.setterfield.org/Genesis_1-11/Introduction.html

Skip any of our Christian comments if you like and simply go for the science.  There's plenty of it.


I have said I will not attempt to disprove the Bible in this thread, in respect to the forum rules.
I will say, however that it is mathematically impossible. If you wish to hear my proof, then please PM me.
(unless I can't do that either, Mods help?)


unless you actually take the time to read what was written, you are in no position to argue about it.  It was not mathematically impossible at all. 

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #50 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:26:09 »
An agnostic is someone who doesn't have any knowledge of God and is unsure of God's existence.
An atheist is someone opposed to God.

You cannot recreate your own definitions otherwise there is no basis of communication.

So with this same thought line.....

On what basis do you deem something as.good?
what standard do you use? Yourself or someone's else?

All western societies started off of Judeo-Christian principles and have since drifted...so even if you claim societies...

Just a starting point of discussion.


I am by no means "recreating" my own definitions. Refer to my earlier response to Catholica for more. Still don't believe me? Look it up.

As for morals... that's tricky. That's more of a psychological preference. Everything is a shade of gray...
Although, I will argue that you do not "need" a God to have morals. But, what are morals? We are the only species to have these. I'd rather not get too into this topic, just because there is no real answer. There will always be an exception, and everything is gray... so not really worth a debate if you just are arguing opinions...
 

There is a real answer of course, and that is that the God who made us knows what is best for us. He gives us clear boundaries, and I have learnt in my life that if you want to have a good and blessed life, you take notice of them. We can all live how we like, but there are always bad consequences to bad decisions. He warns us not to do things for our own good, and for the good of those around us.


I find your answer a bit dogmatic. Although I have few problems with the Bible's approach to morals, you also have to realize that it was written by man. Now, in attempts to try and avoid any Bible confrontations (per forum rules), I would recommend you look up what's called "Secular Morality."

Here's a link to get you started: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_morality

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #51 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:26:33 »
I think you could answer my question without fear of getting banned.  :-)

OK cool, I'm actually going to enjoy this. Some of the things you mentioned I haven't heard before (so I get to learn). Thank you, but at the moment I'm at work so I can't get into too much detail. I'll nick pick some of the ones I know off the top of my head.

Don't confuse me with Red Baker.  I just had the one question.   Cheers.

Whoops... Too late, my bad  ::shrug::

As for your question; I am by no means a scientist and will not pretend to be. I have not mastered the the big bang theory yet, but I am in the process. Basically, I believe there is always rational explanation. Though, as an agnostic I have no problem admitting I don't really know. But ignorance is not an excuse of God, so in my opinion, we just haven't discovered (or I am unfamiliar with) the science behind "the beginning".
 

Nor will we in this life, because Gods mind is something that we can never comprehend in this life.

Debatable. Maybe not "this life" referring to our generation, but science will continue to answer questions long after we're all dead...
 

'This life', meaning our life here on earth, as opposed to our next life after our death. We will all understand far more then.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #52 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:30:49 »
An agnostic is someone who doesn't have any knowledge of God and is unsure of God's existence.
An atheist is someone opposed to God.

You cannot recreate your own definitions otherwise there is no basis of communication.

So with this same thought line.....

On what basis do you deem something as.good?
what standard do you use? Yourself or someone's else?

All western societies started off of Judeo-Christian principles and have since drifted...so even if you claim societies...

Just a starting point of discussion.


I am by no means "recreating" my own definitions. Refer to my earlier response to Catholica for more. Still don't believe me? Look it up.

As for morals... that's tricky. That's more of a psychological preference. Everything is a shade of gray...
Although, I will argue that you do not "need" a God to have morals. But, what are morals? We are the only species to have these. I'd rather not get too into this topic, just because there is no real answer. There will always be an exception, and everything is gray... so not really worth a debate if you just are arguing opinions...
 

There is a real answer of course, and that is that the God who made us knows what is best for us. He gives us clear boundaries, and I have learnt in my life that if you want to have a good and blessed life, you take notice of them. We can all live how we like, but there are always bad consequences to bad decisions. He warns us not to do things for our own good, and for the good of those around us.


I find your answer a bit dogmatic. Although I have few problems with the Bible's approach to morals, you also have to realize that it was written by man. Now, in attempts to try and avoid any Bible confrontations (per forum rules), I would recommend you look up what's called "Secular Morality."

Here's a link to get you started: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_morality


Written by man with the power and inspiration of God. God who made us has set clear moral and ethical boundaries. They aren't hard, dont kill, don't cheat on your wife, treat everyone fairly, don't take things that aren't yours, dont have sex before marriage, don't worship things that will pass away such as money, love your wife, respect your husband, forgive those who hurt you, etc etc etc. All things that are for our good and for the good of those around us.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #53 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:41:54 »
Quote
I have few problems with the Bible's approach to morals

A lot of people do.  And they end up miserable.  The rules were given to us for OUR benefit and protection.  God certainly doesn't need them!

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #54 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:43:48 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?

Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.


 No one is ever going to be able to  answer all questions partly because we don't know how everything happened. A persons level of education has nothing to do with it. In the end I have found that the more I get to Know My Father, the more I trust Him(40 years as a believer now and never doubted His existence) and I am happy to leave all the details to Him now. I don't need to know all the answers, and none of us can ever understand more than a tiny part of God and the universe anyway.
To blame some poor person who was doing their best, for you loosing your faith, seems somewhat mean. My husband is a scientist, and he asks God things ALL THE TME; AND he gets amazing answers. Ask God if you want to know.

You misunderstand, it was not one person. It was many. And you've missed the point of the story, if you can't answer a child's questions about faith and religion, how can you consider yourself a true Christian?

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #55 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:45:13 »
Quote
Though, I probably won't be able to finish as I expect I will be getting banned for answering your questions.

You may not, and I hope that you do not.  I have dealt with people like before, since my father-in-law is maybe more so an Athesist, than you ever thought of being. I have spoken with him many times in the last forty six years, until he gave up, and just got frustrated, because he had many questions, that he himself had answers for.  But, when it all comes down to it, even believers must rely on faith, because through faith alone, do we understand that the worlds were framed by the Almighty power of God. (Hebrews 11:1-3) We will never by our little minds search out and know God, because of his greatness, is past searching out.  I have so many things that I could put before you, but I believe you have enough for the moment.  I trust that you come out on the other side a wise man, and not found to be a fool at the end.  We all will be one or the other, when we take our last breath.

RB

Although I do not believe in your justification, I do agree with your last statement. In my opinion, I think Marcus Aurelius said it best:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

Well Marcus clearly didn't understand the one true God.........

The pure ignorance of this post amazes me

Offline Helen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #56 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:45:57 »
Christianity does not depend upon intellectual knowledge, but upon faith in Christ. 

However, the two links I gave you should answer a lot of questions, but you aren't reading them -- so you are clearly not interested in the answers, just the challenges -- which look kind of ignorant to me.

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #57 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 12:59:35 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?


Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.


OK, here:  http://www.setterfield.org/Ark/The_Ark.html and here: http://www.setterfield.org/Genesis_1-11/Introduction.html

Skip any of our Christian comments if you like and simply go for the science.  There's plenty of it.


I have said I will not attempt to disprove the Bible in this thread, in respect to the forum rules.
I will say, however that it is mathematically impossible. If you wish to hear my proof, then please PM me.
(unless I can't do that either, Mods help?)


unless you actually take the time to read what was written, you are in no position to argue about it.  It was not mathematically impossible at all.


Sigh, I skimmed though them. I'm not spending all day reading that. Way too long. But since you believe it fact I have few questions that you should be able to answer:

1. How did Noah manage to get over a million species of animals onto his ark? How did he manage to keep them from attacking each other? Where did he put his supplies?
2. Did you know that in order to flood the earth up to mount Everest, it would take over 4 billion tons of water? How did that rain in only 40 days? (would require close to 9000 meters of rain a day)
3. Where did all that water go after?
4. According to genetics, it is impossible to continue species with only two left. So how did any animal survive?
5. What happened to the sea life? The salt levels in the oceans would've killed off many, if not all sea life. How did they survive?

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #58 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 13:04:18 »
Christianity does not depend upon intellectual knowledge, but upon faith in Christ. 

However, the two links I gave you should answer a lot of questions, but you aren't reading them -- so you are clearly not interested in the answers, just the challenges -- which look kind of ignorant to me.

I equate faith to blindness.
I did, but if you expect me to read all of that at once... Prepare to be disappointed.

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #59 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 13:09:20 »
Quote
I have few problems with the Bible's approach to morals

A lot of people do.  And they end up miserable.  The rules were given to us for OUR benefit and protection.  God certainly doesn't need them!

This is false. Every person is different. Every person needs something a little different. Why there's so many religions. One is no more right than another (speaking from a humanist point of view)

Offline christianonfire

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #60 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 13:11:33 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?

Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.


 No one is ever going to be able to  answer all questions partly because we don't know how everything happened. A persons level of education has nothing to do with it. In the end I have found that the more I get to Know My Father, the more I trust Him(40 years as a believer now and never doubted His existence) and I am happy to leave all the details to Him now. I don't need to know all the answers, and none of us can ever understand more than a tiny part of God and the universe anyway.
To blame some poor person who was doing their best, for you loosing your faith, seems somewhat mean. My husband is a scientist, and he asks God things ALL THE TME; AND he gets amazing answers. Ask God if you want to know.

You misunderstand, it was not one person. It was many. And you've missed the point of the story, if you can't answer a child's questions about faith and religion, how can you consider yourself a true Christian?

How can you possibly say that??? I can't answer my children's questions often. So we, as a family, look up the answers in the Bible. It doesn't make me less Christian because I don't know all that is written. It is so sad that a non-Christian would join a Christian forum just to argue and make waves.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #61 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 13:33:54 »
It is interesting, you fell away from Christianity because someone couldn't answer your questions, but now you define yourself as someone who can't know the answers to all the questions.  Perhaps that is fitting.

I heard an interesting response to the challenge to Noah's ark, so I can't claim it as my own.  While Christians claim that two (or more, actually) of every animal fit aboard the ark, scientists claim that all the mass in the universe somehow fit in a space the size of the head of a pin.  Which seems more probable?

Anyway, that's more of a rhetorical question really. 

Here is another question.  Do you believe in evolution?

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #62 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 13:44:23 »
Quote
I have few problems with the Bible's approach to morals

A lot of people do.  And they end up miserable.  The rules were given to us for OUR benefit and protection.  God certainly doesn't need them!

This is false. Every person is different. Every person needs something a little different. Why there's so many religions. One is no more right than another (speaking from a humanist point of view)


.........but every child is different, but parents still set rules that they don't expect to be broken in the house. I bought up three children. They are all different, but the rules were the same in the home. I didnt allow one to get away with what another wasn't allowed to do, because the rules that I had were ones that were appropriate for all. Gods boundaries are like that, rules that are for our own good and benefit. Most of the problems in the world are due to people doing their own thing, setting own moral and ethical values(or not having any), and ignoring Gods warnings.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #63 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 13:48:06 »
Quote
I have few problems with the Bible's approach to morals

A lot of people do.  And they end up miserable.  The rules were given to us for OUR benefit and protection.  God certainly doesn't need them!

This is false. Every person is different. Every person needs something a little different. Why there's so many religions. One is no more right than another (speaking from a humanist point of view)
 

God accepts and loves all His children, even though we are all very different. However His boundaries are beneficial for all of us no matter how we differ. Telling us not to steal, cheat, kill, hate, how to have a good marriage, forgive etc etc are rules that benefit everyone no matter what they are like.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #64 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 13:50:15 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?


Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.


OK, here:  http://www.setterfield.org/Ark/The_Ark.html and here: http://www.setterfield.org/Genesis_1-11/Introduction.html

Skip any of our Christian comments if you like and simply go for the science.  There's plenty of it.


I have said I will not attempt to disprove the Bible in this thread, in respect to the forum rules.
I will say, however that it is mathematically impossible. If you wish to hear my proof, then please PM me.
(unless I can't do that either, Mods help?)


 You wouldn't be able to disprove the Bible anyway, so it would be a waste of your time.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #65 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 13:52:28 »
Quote
I have few problems with the Bible's approach to morals

A lot of people do.  And they end up miserable.  The rules were given to us for OUR benefit and protection.  God certainly doesn't need them!
 

Yep. A lot of people ignore them and end up in a mess. Its our choice in the end, but Gods way is always best.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #66 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 14:29:50 »
OK, here you go:

Quote
1. How did Noah manage to get over a million species of animals onto his ark? How did he manage to keep them from attacking each other? Where did he put his supplies?


This question is showing your ignorance of both the Bible and biology.  If you had actually read the material linked, you would have read this:

A very common, and actually very ignorant, criticism regarding the Bible narrative of the Flood and the Ark has to do with the number of animals brought on board. Most people understand that the biblical "kind" is not the same as "species." The biblical "kind" refers to the original populations of various types of animals which carried in their genetic pools the ability to vary. Thus, we are pretty safe in saying the "kind" would be approximately analagous to the "family" or "sub-family" taxonomic classification today. The problem we actually have with this is that there is no definition for "family" in our current taxonomy. Nor is there any definition for "kingdom," "phylum," "class," "order," or "genus." The only definition available, and that is widely argued about, is for "species." So the argument that there is no exact definition for the biblical "kind" is rather hypocritical. Still, we can look at the various types of dogs and say that 'canine' might classify as a 'kind.' The same would go for "feline," "bovine," and "equine." ...So we have representatives of flying animals and land animals that breathe air on the Ark. How many kinds? The estimates vary widely, but 60,000 individuals would not be far off. Ranging in size from mice to young dinosaurs, elephants, and such, the average size has been estimated by some to be about the size of a sheep.

Quote
2. Did you know that in order to flood the earth up to mount Everest, it would take over 4 billion tons of water? How did that rain in only 40 days? (would require close to 9000 meters of rain a day)

And did you know that Mt. Everest is a young mountain and did not exist on the early earth?  Did you also know that the primary source of the water was pressurized sub-crustal water?  If you had bothered reading, you would have read this:

(from the ancient Alexandrian LXX, translated about 280 years before Christ) – And it came to pass after the seven days that the water of the flood came upon the earth.  In the six hundredth year of the life of Noe, in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, on this day all the fountains of the abyss were broken up, and the floodgates ['cataracts' in the literal Greek] of heaven were opened.  [From the actual Greek this reads:  On that very day all the fountains of the abyss exploded and cataracts of newly-generated and heaped-up rain poured out of the sky.]  And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. 

Every geological model agrees that there were no heavy/radioactive elements on the surface of the earth at the beginning, but that they were buried deep in the lower mantle and core of the earth.  As they heated up during radio decay, the heat released water from the rocks and crystal lattices in the mantle.  This water built up in pressure until a series of asteroid hits shocked the earth into releasing it in a series of massive explosions.  The same thing happened on Venus and Mars.  The rain of Noah was not simply rain from clouds, but the descending scalding waters which had exploded up from under the crust, carrying with them enormous amounts of pulverized debris.  This is remembered in not only the Talmud, but in many ancient cultures -- a rain of scalding waters and rocks.  The initial world did not have the crustal plate movement we have now, but was one super-continent, so there were no high mountains.


Quote
3. Where did all that water go after?


Basically it drained into the subsidences left by the explosions.


Quote
4. According to genetics, it is impossible to continue species with only two left. So how did any animal survive?


Having studied genetics myself, I can assure you that it is not impossible, especially since it was God who brought the animals to Noah (read the Bible on that one) and so it was God's choice as to the genetic variation available after the Flood.


Quote
5. What happened to the sea life? The salt levels in the oceans would've killed off many, if not all sea life. How did they survive?


This shows your ignorance again.  Currents do not completely mix in the oceans.  Thus we have different heats and salt contents in different places.

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #67 on: Fri Jan 17, 2014 - 20:10:35 »
An agnostic is someone who doesn't have any knowledge of God and is unsure of God's existence.
An atheist is someone opposed to God.

You cannot recreate your own definitions otherwise there is no basis of communication.

So with this same thought line.....

On what basis do you deem something as.good?
what standard do you use? Yourself or someone's else?

All western societies started off of Judeo-Christian principles and have since drifted...so even if you claim societies...

Just a starting point of discussion.

I am by no means "recreating" my own definitions. Refer to my earlier response to Catholica for more. Still don't believe me? Look it up.

As for morals... that's tricky. That's more of a psychological preference. Everything is a shade of gray...
Although, I will argue that you do not "need" a God to have morals. But, what are morals? We are the only species to have these. I'd rather not get too into this topic, just because there is no real answer. There will always be an exception, and everything is gray... so not really worth a debate if you just are arguing opinions...

What about "good"?

What is evil?

Where do find YOUR definitions coming from?
Morals are a result of good vx evil being applied...not an origin in itself.

Try again...but it was a nice attempt at a dodge.

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #68 on: Wed Jan 22, 2014 - 09:41:19 »
I have a more basic question that is not at all religious .

What happened in your life to you that made you turn from being a Christian that you claim in your OP?

Now this is a question I was expecting, and would love to talk about.

The reason I left, is because I'm a natural skeptic. I remember as a child learning about Noah's ark and asking "Teacher, how did Noah find all the animals?", "Aren't there too many to fit on the boat?", "What about the plants?", "The bugs?". Now of course, I didn't have the knowledge to debate that story. I was always told to "Take it on faith" or given some fuzzy explanation, and few times actually silenced! I was punished for asking questions. To me, that is not a real Christian. Any person who claims to be a Christian but can not explain, or even truly understand his own beliefs is a liar. You should constantly be asking questions, challenging yourself and putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. Without that, how can you ever "grow closer to God"?
So, since I never had any answers that satisfied me, I looked elsewhere. I made my own path. I do not regret it.

Now, coming from a Christian point of view: I want you to take this story as a lesson. What would have happened if someone had bothered to educate themself and answer my questions? Well, I'd probably still be Christian. My family is still highly religious and see this all the time. You can excuse ignorance only once, but after that who's at fault? Is it not your duty to spread the gospel? How can you effectively do that if you can't even effectively communicate to a child? Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all religious people are stupid. This is on an individual level, and from my experience, not many have the education.


 No one is ever going to be able to  answer all questions partly because we don't know how everything happened. A persons level of education has nothing to do with it. In the end I have found that the more I get to Know My Father, the more I trust Him(40 years as a believer now and never doubted His existence) and I am happy to leave all the details to Him now. I don't need to know all the answers, and none of us can ever understand more than a tiny part of God and the universe anyway.
To blame some poor person who was doing their best, for you loosing your faith, seems somewhat mean. My husband is a scientist, and he asks God things ALL THE TME; AND he gets amazing answers. Ask God if you want to know.

You misunderstand, it was not one person. It was many. And you've missed the point of the story, if you can't answer a child's questions about faith and religion, how can you consider yourself a true Christian?

How can you possibly say that??? I can't answer my children's questions often. So we, as a family, look up the answers in the Bible. It doesn't make me less Christian because I don't know all that is written. It is so sad that a non-Christian would join a Christian forum just to argue and make waves.

Once again, point missed.
Besides that, my purpose here is not to make waves. If you'd actually read the original post, and following comments you'd realize I'm only responding to questions asked. The purpose of this was to ask questions about atheism, not the other way around.
Look at Catholica, he's a perfect example of what I pictured this thread to be talking about.

Offline ApparentHeathen

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Re: Ask an Atheist!
« Reply #69 on: Wed Jan 22, 2014 - 09:51:09 »
It is interesting, you fell away from Christianity because someone couldn't answer your questions, but now you define yourself as someone who can't know the answers to all the questions.  Perhaps that is fitting.

I heard an interesting response to the challenge to Noah's ark, so I can't claim it as my own.  While Christians claim that two (or more, actually) of every animal fit aboard the ark, scientists claim that all the mass in the universe somehow fit in a space the size of the head of a pin.  Which seems more probable?

Anyway, that's more of a rhetorical question really. 

Here is another question.  Do you believe in evolution?

Your first argument is illogical. You're equating all the questions about the Bible/religion to all the questions in science. Yes, I agree you can't know everything, BUT if you wish to learn something you can simply go look it up or take a college class for science. Although with the Bible, I only find fallacious arguments or "take it on faith." To me it's the difference between ignorance and arrogance. You can not blame a person for ignorance, but you can for arrogance.

And yes, some scientists do claim this. To understand this claim, you'd have to understand the logic, theories, and evidence behind it. Otherwise you're using Strawman argument (fallacious argument).

Which do you mean? Micro or macro? Though yes, I personally believe in both.

 

     
anything