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Author Topic: Baptised for the dead?  (Read 4271 times)

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p.rehbein

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Baptised for the dead?
« on: September 11, 2011, 05:51:14 PM »
1st Corinthians 15:29
"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?  why are they then baptized for the dead?

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I'm completely OPEN to ideas on this one.  Should people act as proxies for those who are dead and be baptized for them?  Are there any other Scriptural references to this?

 ::shrug::

The Complete Jewish Bible says it this way:

28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone. 29 Were it otherwise, what would the people accomplish who are immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not actually raised, why are people immersed for them?

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Baptised for the dead?
« on: September 11, 2011, 05:51:14 PM »

Online yogi bear

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2011, 06:55:20 PM »
This brings up a question if you please.
Just how is one baptized for the dead? Has to be talking of water correct? but you say it has to say water to mean water?and why would one worry so much that one would be baptized for the dead if water baptism was just and empty ritual?

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2011, 06:55:20 PM »

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 05:32:46 AM »
This brings up a question if you please.
Just how is one baptized for the dead? Has to be talking of water correct? but you say it has to say water to mean water?and why would one worry so much that one would be baptized for the dead if water baptism was just and empty ritual?

 ??? ::shrug::
Are you confusing two different people and two different posts?  I said it has to say water to mean water?  Really?  I said water baptism was just an empty ritual?  Really? 
 ::shrug::
I have no recollection of these two assertions.  Can you please give me the thread and comment where I said these things?

As for your orrigional question, I would agree that IF WE ARE to be baptized for the dead, and IF IT IS OK to do so, then water baptism would be the ONLY way for us to do it. 

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 06:05:27 AM »
I am sorry for making it seem this was addressed to you personally but in reality it was addressed to all that say the baptism of of Acts 2:38 is not of water. Not no one personally but a broad brush statement.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 06:11:07 AM »
Let me offer an example that might be acceptable with regards to being baptized for the dead as spoken of by the Apostle and see if y'all agree or disasgree.

We (you, me, whoever) have a loved one in Hospital and they are considered "terminal" due to accident, illness, whatever.  They and we know that it's just a matter of time before their passing.  We ask our Pastor to come in and speak with our loved one and during the Pastor's time with that loved one, they experience the conviction of the Holy Ghost and sincerely want to repent for their sinful life and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and say as much to both us and our Pastor.  This is referred to as a "deathbed conversion" usually.  Ok, our Pastor prays with our loved one and they confess with their lips Jesus as Lord and Saviour and so, they have been born again a new man, and that in Christ Jesus.  Due to their condition, it is impossible physically and impractical medically to actually water baptize them, and a day or so later, they pass over.

Some time passes (no specific lenth in mind, just some time) and we feel we must speak with our Pastor and tell them that we feel the need to be baptized for our loved one.  The Pastor agrees, and the next Sunday morning, the Pastor recounts to the congregation the experience of our loved one on their deathbed and how they had accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, but because of the circumstances, it was impossible for them to be water baptised.  Since they could not physically fuifill the commandment of Jesus that we be water baptized, we have asked to be baptized for our loved one.

In this example/instance, would this be ok?


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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 06:11:07 AM »



p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 06:11:40 AM »
I am sorry for making it seem this was addressed to you personally but in reality it was addressed to all that say the baptism of of Acts 2:38 is not of water. Not no one personally but a broad brush statement.

Thanks for the clarification, shoot, I was sodarn confused................
 ::smile::

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 06:20:06 AM »
Still what is the importance of water baptism as they viewed it to make it so important that they felt they had to be baptized for those that missed the chance? I am if water baptism is just symbolic and no really meaning just a ritual that we can chose whether or not we wish to undergo it why are they making a big deal of it? Maybe what Paul describes in Romans 6 is actually what God (Spirit) is doing in the water baptism and it is more than symbolic. The symbolism is actually the work God is doing in this chosen channel he picked.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 06:28:32 AM »
Yogi, I know you want to get this to the point of determining the different opinions of water baptism, and that being is it an act of obedience or salvaiton, but that isn't really what this thread is about.  It's about the idea expressed by the Apostle concerning being baptized for the dead.

With that in mind, I thought of something else.  Is it possible that this practice (which must have taken place, because the Apostle spoke of it) was practiced by loved ones of those who had passed over before the establishment of the New Covenant?  I mean, that we had a loved one who died and was burried before Jesus had fulfilled God's Salvation Plan of Grace on the Cross, and we knew that our loved one was a true person of God and loved God, and may have even been alive to hear Jesus teach/preach, but not necessarially.

Now, I do believe that we must have some personal knowledge that our loved one was a believer before we should even consider being baptized for them.  I don't think (and this is just my opinion) that we should be baptized for a loved one that we know died in sin and that being apart from God.  I don't know.  Maybe this practice ended some time after Pentecost and is not still practiced.  I'm just wondering if it is Biblically acceptable to do it today?

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 06:42:01 AM »
any discussion on this topic is all speculation because it was just briefly mentioned in Corinthians and not enough info to understand any thing or make a biblical statement of truth because it just is not there so there is no real biblical understanding we will just have to assume we can make heads or tells

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 06:44:45 AM »
A definitive stance if I ever read one!
 ::smile::

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 07:17:01 AM »
No Just fact still willing to discuss possibilities

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2011, 06:38:36 AM »
I think an important clue to understanding this question is found in the verses that surrounding vs29:
For example, vs12-14: "12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised
from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of
the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."
The issue Paul is arguing isn't baptism, but resurrection. In his BC days, Paul was a Pharisee. The Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection. It was a very hot debate between the two groups. Now, in the Church there seems to have been an intrusion of the same belief. Understandably Paul was
determined to nip this nonsense in the bud, so to speak.

And vs30: "And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?"
In saying, "as for us", Paul is clearly separating himself and anyone who follows his teaching from anyone who would be practicing this ritual of baptism for the dead. Even in vs29, he does not say, "what will we do who are baptized for them?"; he says, "what will those do . . .".

And again vs32: "If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained?"
The Pharisee/Sadducee debate based on there being a resurrection of the dead was more than academic. If the punishments and rewards for sin and righteousness were only in this life, the seriousness of those punishments and rewards is greatly reduced. Eternal punishment and eternal reward mean that death is no escape from God's justice. Death is also not the end of His blessing.

Somehow, I've missed this verse in the past. The impression I'm getting though is that there was a group of people in Paul's day who held to this practice and Paul was using their example to emphasize his point without
endorsing the practice itself. It seems he was saying, "Look, if even those people who do suchandsuch believe in the resurrection. Can't you see that there has to be a resurrection?!?"
"He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he can never lose."
Jim Elliot

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2011, 05:51:06 AM »
Interesting view Bosk, will study it further.............not sure I'm 100% on board with the idea though, but not sure I'm not either.

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2011, 08:47:15 AM »
Boskelev,
I see what you are saying and it make a some since but I will have to look deeper into what Paul is trying to convey before I can totally agree. It does see more to the though because he goes more into the discussion of resurrection and defending it than baptism so you might be right in line with his thoughts. Looking more into it.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2011, 04:54:45 AM »
Boskelev:

The Complete Jewish Bible records the teaching of the Apostle Paul in the 15th Chapter this way:

1 Now, brothers, I must remind you of the Good News which I proclaimed to you, and which you received, and on which you have taken your stand, 2 and by which you are being saved - provided you keep holding fast to the message I proclaimed to you. For if you don't, your trust will have been in vain. 3 For among the first things I passed on to you was what I also received, namely this: the Messiah died for our sins, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; 4 and he was buried; and he was raised on the third day, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; 5 and he was seen by Kefa, then by the Twelve; 6 and afterwards he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, though some have died. 7 Later he was seen by Ya'akov, then by all the emissaries; 8 and last of all he was seen by me, even though I was born at the wrong time. 9 For I am the least of all the emissaries, unfit to be called an emissary, because I persecuted the Messianic Community of God. 10 But by God's grace I am what I am, and his grace towards me was not in vain; on the contrary, I have worked harder than all of them, although it was not I but the grace of God with me. 11 Anyhow, whether I or they, this is what we proclaim, and this is what you believed. 12 But if it has been proclaimed that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, how is it that some of you are saying there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then the Messiah has not been raised; 14 and if the Messiah has not been raised, then what we have proclaimed is in vain; also your trust is in vain; 15 furthermore, we are shown up as false witnesses for God in having testified that God raised up the Messiah, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then the Messiah has not been raised either; 17 and if the Messiah has not been raised, your trust is useless, and you are still in your sins. 18 Also, if this is the case, those who died in union with the Messiah are lost. 19 If it is only for this life that we have put our hope in the Messiah, we are more pitiable than anyone. 20 But the fact is that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have died. 21 For since death came through a man, also the resurrection of the dead has come through a man. 22 For just as in connection with Adam all die, so in connection with the Messiah all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: the Messiah is the firstfruits; then those who belong to the Messiah, at the time of his coming; 24 then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power. 25 For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be done away with will be death, 27 for "He put everything in subjection under his feet."m But when it says that "everything" has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah. 28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone. 29 Were it otherwise, what would the people accomplish who are immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not actually raised, why are people immersed for them? 30 For that matter, we ourselves - why do we keep facing danger hour by hour? 31 Brothers, by the right to be proud which the Messiah Yeshua our Lord gives me, I solemnly tell you that I die every day. 32 If my fighting with "wild beasts" in Ephesus was done merely on a human basis, what do I gain by it? If dead people are not raised, we might as well live by the saying, "Let's eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" 33 Don't be fooled. "Bad company ruins good character." 34 Come to your senses! Live righteously and stop sinning! There are some people who lack knowledge of God - I say this to your shame.
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Reading through this, it seems to me that this translation contradicts your statement.  I should clarify that it contradicts in that while yes, he is speaking of ressurection, he is not separating himself from those who are immersed for the dead.  He does not appear to be discounting their act at all, rather justifying it.  Now, this is just how I am reading it of course..........so............


 ::shrug::