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p.rehbein

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Baptised for the dead?
« on: Sun Sep 11, 2011 - 18:51:14 »
1st Corinthians 15:29
"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?  why are they then baptized for the dead?

--------------------------------------------------

I'm completely OPEN to ideas on this one.  Should people act as proxies for those who are dead and be baptized for them?  Are there any other Scriptural references to this?

 ::shrug::

The Complete Jewish Bible says it this way:

28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone. 29 Were it otherwise, what would the people accomplish who are immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not actually raised, why are people immersed for them?

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Baptised for the dead?
« on: Sun Sep 11, 2011 - 18:51:14 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Sep 12, 2011 - 19:55:20 »
This brings up a question if you please.
Just how is one baptized for the dead? Has to be talking of water correct? but you say it has to say water to mean water?and why would one worry so much that one would be baptized for the dead if water baptism was just and empty ritual?

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Sep 12, 2011 - 19:55:20 »

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #2 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 06:32:46 »
This brings up a question if you please.
Just how is one baptized for the dead? Has to be talking of water correct? but you say it has to say water to mean water?and why would one worry so much that one would be baptized for the dead if water baptism was just and empty ritual?

 ??? ::shrug::
Are you confusing two different people and two different posts?  I said it has to say water to mean water?  Really?  I said water baptism was just an empty ritual?  Really? 
 ::shrug::
I have no recollection of these two assertions.  Can you please give me the thread and comment where I said these things?

As for your orrigional question, I would agree that IF WE ARE to be baptized for the dead, and IF IT IS OK to do so, then water baptism would be the ONLY way for us to do it. 

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #3 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:05:27 »
I am sorry for making it seem this was addressed to you personally but in reality it was addressed to all that say the baptism of of Acts 2:38 is not of water. Not no one personally but a broad brush statement.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:11:07 »
Let me offer an example that might be acceptable with regards to being baptized for the dead as spoken of by the Apostle and see if y'all agree or disasgree.

We (you, me, whoever) have a loved one in Hospital and they are considered "terminal" due to accident, illness, whatever.  They and we know that it's just a matter of time before their passing.  We ask our Pastor to come in and speak with our loved one and during the Pastor's time with that loved one, they experience the conviction of the Holy Ghost and sincerely want to repent for their sinful life and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and say as much to both us and our Pastor.  This is referred to as a "deathbed conversion" usually.  Ok, our Pastor prays with our loved one and they confess with their lips Jesus as Lord and Saviour and so, they have been born again a new man, and that in Christ Jesus.  Due to their condition, it is impossible physically and impractical medically to actually water baptize them, and a day or so later, they pass over.

Some time passes (no specific lenth in mind, just some time) and we feel we must speak with our Pastor and tell them that we feel the need to be baptized for our loved one.  The Pastor agrees, and the next Sunday morning, the Pastor recounts to the congregation the experience of our loved one on their deathbed and how they had accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, but because of the circumstances, it was impossible for them to be water baptised.  Since they could not physically fuifill the commandment of Jesus that we be water baptized, we have asked to be baptized for our loved one.

In this example/instance, would this be ok?


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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:11:07 »



p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #5 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:11:40 »
I am sorry for making it seem this was addressed to you personally but in reality it was addressed to all that say the baptism of of Acts 2:38 is not of water. Not no one personally but a broad brush statement.

Thanks for the clarification, shoot, I was sodarn confused................
 ::smile::

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #6 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:20:06 »
Still what is the importance of water baptism as they viewed it to make it so important that they felt they had to be baptized for those that missed the chance? I am if water baptism is just symbolic and no really meaning just a ritual that we can chose whether or not we wish to undergo it why are they making a big deal of it? Maybe what Paul describes in Romans 6 is actually what God (Spirit) is doing in the water baptism and it is more than symbolic. The symbolism is actually the work God is doing in this chosen channel he picked.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #7 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:28:32 »
Yogi, I know you want to get this to the point of determining the different opinions of water baptism, and that being is it an act of obedience or salvaiton, but that isn't really what this thread is about.  It's about the idea expressed by the Apostle concerning being baptized for the dead.

With that in mind, I thought of something else.  Is it possible that this practice (which must have taken place, because the Apostle spoke of it) was practiced by loved ones of those who had passed over before the establishment of the New Covenant?  I mean, that we had a loved one who died and was burried before Jesus had fulfilled God's Salvation Plan of Grace on the Cross, and we knew that our loved one was a true person of God and loved God, and may have even been alive to hear Jesus teach/preach, but not necessarially.

Now, I do believe that we must have some personal knowledge that our loved one was a believer before we should even consider being baptized for them.  I don't think (and this is just my opinion) that we should be baptized for a loved one that we know died in sin and that being apart from God.  I don't know.  Maybe this practice ended some time after Pentecost and is not still practiced.  I'm just wondering if it is Biblically acceptable to do it today?

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #8 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:42:01 »
any discussion on this topic is all speculation because it was just briefly mentioned in Corinthians and not enough info to understand any thing or make a biblical statement of truth because it just is not there so there is no real biblical understanding we will just have to assume we can make heads or tells

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #9 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 07:44:45 »
A definitive stance if I ever read one!
 ::smile::

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #10 on: Tue Sep 13, 2011 - 08:17:01 »
No Just fact still willing to discuss possibilities

Offline Boskelev

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #11 on: Sat Sep 17, 2011 - 07:38:36 »
I think an important clue to understanding this question is found in the verses that surrounding vs29:
For example, vs12-14: "12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised
from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of
the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."
The issue Paul is arguing isn't baptism, but resurrection. In his BC days, Paul was a Pharisee. The Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection. It was a very hot debate between the two groups. Now, in the Church there seems to have been an intrusion of the same belief. Understandably Paul was
determined to nip this nonsense in the bud, so to speak.

And vs30: "And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?"
In saying, "as for us", Paul is clearly separating himself and anyone who follows his teaching from anyone who would be practicing this ritual of baptism for the dead. Even in vs29, he does not say, "what will we do who are baptized for them?"; he says, "what will those do . . .".

And again vs32: "If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained?"
The Pharisee/Sadducee debate based on there being a resurrection of the dead was more than academic. If the punishments and rewards for sin and righteousness were only in this life, the seriousness of those punishments and rewards is greatly reduced. Eternal punishment and eternal reward mean that death is no escape from God's justice. Death is also not the end of His blessing.

Somehow, I've missed this verse in the past. The impression I'm getting though is that there was a group of people in Paul's day who held to this practice and Paul was using their example to emphasize his point without
endorsing the practice itself. It seems he was saying, "Look, if even those people who do suchandsuch believe in the resurrection. Can't you see that there has to be a resurrection?!?"

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #12 on: Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 06:51:06 »
Interesting view Bosk, will study it further.............not sure I'm 100% on board with the idea though, but not sure I'm not either.

 ::smile::

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #13 on: Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 09:47:15 »
Boskelev,
I see what you are saying and it make a some since but I will have to look deeper into what Paul is trying to convey before I can totally agree. It does see more to the though because he goes more into the discussion of resurrection and defending it than baptism so you might be right in line with his thoughts. Looking more into it.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #14 on: Mon Sep 19, 2011 - 05:54:45 »
Boskelev:

The Complete Jewish Bible records the teaching of the Apostle Paul in the 15th Chapter this way:

1 Now, brothers, I must remind you of the Good News which I proclaimed to you, and which you received, and on which you have taken your stand, 2 and by which you are being saved - provided you keep holding fast to the message I proclaimed to you. For if you don't, your trust will have been in vain. 3 For among the first things I passed on to you was what I also received, namely this: the Messiah died for our sins, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; 4 and he was buried; and he was raised on the third day, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; 5 and he was seen by Kefa, then by the Twelve; 6 and afterwards he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, though some have died. 7 Later he was seen by Ya'akov, then by all the emissaries; 8 and last of all he was seen by me, even though I was born at the wrong time. 9 For I am the least of all the emissaries, unfit to be called an emissary, because I persecuted the Messianic Community of God. 10 But by God's grace I am what I am, and his grace towards me was not in vain; on the contrary, I have worked harder than all of them, although it was not I but the grace of God with me. 11 Anyhow, whether I or they, this is what we proclaim, and this is what you believed. 12 But if it has been proclaimed that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, how is it that some of you are saying there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then the Messiah has not been raised; 14 and if the Messiah has not been raised, then what we have proclaimed is in vain; also your trust is in vain; 15 furthermore, we are shown up as false witnesses for God in having testified that God raised up the Messiah, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then the Messiah has not been raised either; 17 and if the Messiah has not been raised, your trust is useless, and you are still in your sins. 18 Also, if this is the case, those who died in union with the Messiah are lost. 19 If it is only for this life that we have put our hope in the Messiah, we are more pitiable than anyone. 20 But the fact is that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have died. 21 For since death came through a man, also the resurrection of the dead has come through a man. 22 For just as in connection with Adam all die, so in connection with the Messiah all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: the Messiah is the firstfruits; then those who belong to the Messiah, at the time of his coming; 24 then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power. 25 For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be done away with will be death, 27 for "He put everything in subjection under his feet."m But when it says that "everything" has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah. 28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone. 29 Were it otherwise, what would the people accomplish who are immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not actually raised, why are people immersed for them? 30 For that matter, we ourselves - why do we keep facing danger hour by hour? 31 Brothers, by the right to be proud which the Messiah Yeshua our Lord gives me, I solemnly tell you that I die every day. 32 If my fighting with "wild beasts" in Ephesus was done merely on a human basis, what do I gain by it? If dead people are not raised, we might as well live by the saying, "Let's eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" 33 Don't be fooled. "Bad company ruins good character." 34 Come to your senses! Live righteously and stop sinning! There are some people who lack knowledge of God - I say this to your shame.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reading through this, it seems to me that this translation contradicts your statement.  I should clarify that it contradicts in that while yes, he is speaking of ressurection, he is not separating himself from those who are immersed for the dead.  He does not appear to be discounting their act at all, rather justifying it.  Now, this is just how I am reading it of course..........so............


 ::shrug::

Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #15 on: Sat Sep 24, 2011 - 18:11:04 »
I have no idea how a living person can be baptized "for the remission of sins" for another living person (Acts 2:38).
Peter,speaking by inspiration said, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to those that are afar off.

I know the Mormon church practices "baptism for the dead," but they also teach Holy Spirit regeneration.
(Moroni 10:3-5).

Interesting: if one believes in Holy Spirit regeneration why believe in water baptism "for the remission of sins"?
If one believes that salvation takes place in ones heart......how do you go about this?
Becomes a tangled web does it not

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #16 on: Sun Sep 25, 2011 - 07:21:22 »
I have no idea how a living person can be baptized "for the remission of sins" for another living person (Acts 2:38).
Peter,speaking by inspiration said, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to those that are afar off.

I know the Mormon church practices "baptism for the dead," but they also teach Holy Spirit regeneration.
(Moroni 10:3-5).

Interesting: if one believes in Holy Spirit regeneration why believe in water baptism "for the remission of sins"?
If one believes that salvation takes place in ones heart......how do you go about this?
Becomes a tangled web does it not
====================================

That is why I thought it would be a good topic to discuss, for it isn't often spoken of.  I am a bit confused about your statement of a living person being baptized for another living person?  We are speaking of being baptized for the dead, not for another living person.  As well, we are speaking of water baptism and not Holy Ghost baptism...........F.Y.I.
 ::smile::

Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #17 on: Sun Sep 25, 2011 - 08:40:25 »
p.rehbein: "That is why I thought it would be a good topic to discuss, for it isn't often spoken of.  I am a bit confused about your statement of a living person being baptized for another living person?  We are speaking of being baptized for the dead, not for another living person.  As well, we are speaking of water baptism and not Holy Ghost baptism...........F.Y.I.

Thanks...this is what happens when I engage computer before my mind....
I of course meant "dead."

How would one know that the dead person that you were being baptized for, (in water) believed?
Had this dead person repented?
This is not what Paul was referring in his letter to the Corinthians.
I believe Boskelve has delivered the correct exegesis of the text.

We must remember that salvation takes place in the mind of God, not the heart of man.
We are lost in the mind of God...not our heart.
Having the Holy Spirit does not save...
It is the death of Jesus on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins that saves.
This action has taken place in God mind.
Is this not His plan from the foundation of the world?


Augustine and Calvin removed the seat of salvation from the mind of God to the heart of man.
Catholicism and the Reformers have carried out this teaching of Holy Spirit regeneration.
Both theologies are based on believing that man has inherited Adam's sin.
Both theologies teach that man is "Totally Depraved" (corrupted by Adam's sin).

By this: Man is WHOLLY of God, (Election).
Which leads to Irresistible grace....
The results of this salvation: faith, justification, sanctification and of course perseverance of the saints.
I know of only the Mormon church that adopts baptizing for the dead..from Paul's letter to the Corinthians.
How they explain Romans 6:1 ff I have no idea....
 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #18 on: Sun Sep 25, 2011 - 10:34:49 »
I've an answer.  Pick me! Pick me!

My belief is that WATER baptism is that part of baptism by which the church admits a member to it's ranks.

In the event that a person dies without having been formally admitted to the local chapter of the body o' Christ, the assembly may decide to recognize that the person was a member of the body, posthumously.

Jarrod

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #19 on: Mon Sep 26, 2011 - 05:45:34 »
pointmade said:

We must remember that salvation takes place in the mind of God, not the heart of man.
We are lost in the mind of God...not our heart.
Having the Holy Spirit does not save...
It is the death of Jesus on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins that saves.
This action has taken place in God mind.
Is this not His plan from the foundation of the world?
=====================================================

I gotta spend some time on this one and will have to get back to you, 'cause this is so out in left field that I'm gonna have to use a bush-hog to mow down all the weeds between it and me...................

(tongue in cheek..............  ::smile::)

However, let me say......................................... well, that's certainly ONE WAY to look at it I supose...........  ::smile::

Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #20 on: Mon Sep 26, 2011 - 08:50:05 »
Jarrod: "My belief is that WATER baptism is that part of baptism by which the church admits a member to it's ranks.
In the event that a person dies without having been formally admitted to the local chapter of the body o' Christ, the assembly may decide to recognize that the person was a member of the body, posthumously."

Jarrod, I hope you had "tongue in cheek" when writing this...?

If not, how do you circumvent Acts 2:38-47?

Luke informs the reader that God "added to the church daily those that were saved."
Is water baptism "for the remission of sins" or not?

Noting verse 41..."Then they that gladly received his (Peter's) word were baptized: and the same
day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

No vote taken by the congregation on being "admitted to the local chapter" at Pentecost as I read the text
If water baptism is not for the remission of sins and addition into the church/kingdom Peter was given the "keys"
(Ma. 16:18-19) then the metaphor has broken down into a eschatological comic book that the millennialist
have  conjured up on the "End Time" Forum.

No matter how you slice it...you ain't "added" until God says your "added."
Where would this "addition" take place?

Looks like I have confused p. rehbein with "the mind of God."
But, logically speaking...where else could this action take place?
Please, do not give me the sanctimonious answer of the charismatic: "in my heart."

Is the plan of salvation as voiced by Peter at Pentecost: God's words or not?
If not...then we must delete the words of Jesus in Matthew 10:19-20 as He speaks to his "twelve disciples"
about not "giving a thought about what they were to speak as a testimony for His sake."
Look at that answer in verse 20: "For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you."

The Catholic church has taken this verse and has run with it to their teaching that the papacy (successor to Peter)
through the ages has been given this authority to speak for God.
Of course, when asked to verify the words of the papacy to "confirm their word with signs"
(Acts 2:43; 5:20; 14:3, Mark 16:20) they fall flat on their clarion voices.

Peter verified his words with "many wonders and signs."
So, I can take to the bank that water baptism is "for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Not the indwelling Spirit of an apostles, but, the "gift".......in the mind of God......Where else???
 



 

 



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #21 on: Tue Sep 27, 2011 - 01:02:47 »
Jarrod: "My belief is that WATER baptism is that part of baptism by which the church admits a member to it's ranks.
In the event that a person dies without having been formally admitted to the local chapter of the body o' Christ, the assembly may decide to recognize that the person was a member of the body, posthumously."

Jarrod, I hope you had "tongue in cheek" when writing this...?
Nope.  I'm serious.

If not, how do you circumvent Acts 2:38-47?

Luke informs the reader that God "added to the church daily those that were saved."
Is water baptism "for the remission of sins" or not?

Noting verse 41..."Then they that gladly received his (Peter's) word were baptized: and the same
day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

No vote taken by the congregation on being "admitted to the local chapter" at Pentecost as I read the text
If water baptism is not for the remission of sins and addition into the church/kingdom Peter was given the "keys"
(Ma. 16:18-19) then the metaphor has broken down into a eschatological comic book that the millennialist
have  conjured up on the "End Time" Forum.

No matter how you slice it...you ain't "added" until God says your "added."
Where would this "addition" take place?

Looks like I have confused p. rehbein with "the mind of God."
But, logically speaking...where else could this action take place?
Please, do not give me the sanctimonious answer of the charismatic: "in my heart."

Is the plan of salvation as voiced by Peter at Pentecost: God's words or not?
If not...then we must delete the words of Jesus in Matthew 10:19-20 as He speaks to his "twelve disciples"
about not "giving a thought about what they were to speak as a testimony for His sake."
Look at that answer in verse 20: "For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you."

The Catholic church has taken this verse and has run with it to their teaching that the papacy (successor to Peter)
through the ages has been given this authority to speak for God.
Of course, when asked to verify the words of the papacy to "confirm their word with signs"
(Acts 2:43; 5:20; 14:3, Mark 16:20) they fall flat on their clarion voices.

Peter verified his words with "many wonders and signs."
So, I can take to the bank that water baptism is "for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Not the indwelling Spirit of an apostles, but, the "gift".......in the mind of God......Where else???
As nearly as I can tell, there is only ONE BAPTISM, but there are SEVERAL PARTICIPANTS that perform different roles:

When we talk about "water baptism" we talk about the part of baptism the church performs.  That basically means admitting the baptizee as a member of the church through means of a very public washing ritual.

When we talk about "spirit baptism" or "regeneration" we talk about the part of the baptism God performs.  That's the part where He cleans us up on the inside and screws our head on right.

When we talk about the "baptism of repentance" or "remission of sinning" or the "confession of sins" we talk about the part that the baptizee performs in changing their mindset words and actions to match God's way of thinking.

Hopefully that solves the apparent conundrum for you.  It does for me.  Baptism saves... provided you had a valid baptism in which all the necessary participants did their part.

Jarrod

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Sep 28, 2011 - 06:03:38 »
pointmade said:

We must remember that salvation takes place in the mind of God, not the heart of man.
We are lost in the mind of God...not our heart.
Having the Holy Spirit does not save...
It is the death of Jesus on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins that saves.
This action has taken place in God mind.
Is this not His plan from the foundation of the world?
=====================================================

I gotta spend some time on this one and will have to get back to you, 'cause this is so out in left field that I'm gonna have to use a bush-hog to mow down all the weeds between it and me...................

(tongue in cheek..............  ::smile::)

However, let me say......................................... well, that's certainly ONE WAY to look at it I supose...........  ::smile::

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I've spent some time pondering this and I have to ask one question:  How exactly can a person believe the following statement

pointmade said:

I have studied this argument from both sides of the fence.
I can find no where in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John where Jesus forced any man
to follow him.

and then conclude that everything has taken place in God's mind?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

As for Scripture, I would remember John 3:16 of course, because Salvation has ALWAYS been a "heart thingy."  God desired a "personal" relationship with us, and because of that, He established His Salvation plan for us so that we could choose a "personal" relationship with Him, AND THAT IS A HEART THINGY!
 ::clappingoverhead::

I would also remember the Scripture that states....................."who can know the mind of God?"  Since no man can know the mind of God, how can we state firmly that salvation takes place in the mind of God?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::


Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #23 on: Thu Sep 29, 2011 - 17:11:50 »
OK rehbein....but the question is: where does salvation take palce"?
I believe you feel that somewhere in your "thingy heart" you are saved.
I don't believe the Bible teaches that......

Hey Jarrod...you write: "When we talk about "water baptism" we talk about the part of baptism the church performs.  That basically means admitting the baptizee as a member of the church through means of a very public washing ritual."

Would you explain the baptism of the eunuch in Acts 8:28-39 as a "public ritual"?
He would be a member of what church?
Is there a  report of "spirit baptism" on this chariot rider?

The Book says, "When they were  came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip,
that the eunuch saw him no more."

So, do we have here a preacher that baptizes a sinner and sends him on his way; no mention
of "spirit baptism or "baptism for repentance."
Philip doesn't even ask for a vote of the church?
So, did he have as you say, a "valid baptism" with all the "necessary participants"?
 



p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 07:20:46 »
pointmade said:

OK rehbein....but the question is: where does salvation take palce"?
I believe you feel that somewhere in your "thingy heart" you are saved.
I don't believe the Bible teaches that......
===============================================

Matthew 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent:  for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

4:19  And he said unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Matthew 5: (Sermon on the mount)

*Blessed are the poor in spirit...........
*Blessed are they that mourn..........
*Blessed are the meek.............
*Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst...........
*Blessed are the merciful..........
*Blessed are the pure in heart............
*Blessed are the peacemakers............
*Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake............
*Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
5:40  And if a man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.  41)And whosoever shall compell thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
44)But I say unto you. Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you............

6:14  For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged............
7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that me should do to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets...........................15)Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are raveni9ng wolves...............16)Ye shall know them by their fruits............

9:22  But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole.
9:29  Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
12:35  A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things...............

13:15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.....................

15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.  9)But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men...............11) Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man...........................18)But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.  19)For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...............

18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  4)Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

19:8  He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives;............
==========================================

This is just a few Scriptures from the first part of Matthew which speak of the heart and the need for our hearts to undergo a drastic change in order for us to become worthy of being called the sons of God.  Throughout the rest of the Gospels, as well as the following Books of the New Testament, the Scriptures continue to teach us that salvaiton is certinly a "heart thingy."  In His teachings of the Commandments, and the two new Commandments He gave us, Jesus speaks of love/loving, and this love/loving comes from where?  The mind of God, or from our hearts? 

The precious blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross; what does it "cleanse?"  The mind of God, or our hearts?

When the Holy Ghost draws near unto us to place us under conviction, what does He speak to?  The mind of God, or our hearts?

When we are converted, our sins forgiven, born again, where does the change take place?  The mind of God, or our hearts?

Every part of Scripture deals with the need for us to undergo a change of heart.  God's very Salvation plan is designed to bring about a change in our heart.  Through His Grace, His Gift to us, and through the price paid on Calvary's cross by our Lord and Saviour, are we able to experience this change of heart and receive the Holy Ghost (the Comforter) into our hearts to abide with us, to guide and direct us, to comfort and strengthen us on our daily walk with Christ.  In truth, I find that the entire New Testament teaches of Salvation being a "heart thingy."  A personal relationship between us and God, and this relationship takes place in our hearts.



Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 08:29:07 »
OK... p. rehbein, let me simplify "in the mind of God" for you.

If I do something to you like stealing, or slandering your good name.
You would naturally take offence to this.

I come to you and apologise, repent, make retribution, and ask for your forgiveness.
You say, "I forgive you."

Now p.rehbein,....just where does this "forgiveness" take place:
In your mind/spirit or,...... in my heart?

It takes professional help to miss this at an elementary level.....
"Forgiveness of sins" takes place in the mind of God.

The main question: when does this forgiveness of a holy God take place?
This of course, is the Soteriology of men.....through the ages.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #26 on: Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 04:45:27 »
Hey Jarrod...you write: "When we talk about "water baptism" we talk about the part of baptism the church performs.  That basically means admitting the baptizee as a member of the church through means of a very public washing ritual."

Would you explain the baptism of the eunuch in Acts 8:28-39 as a "public ritual"?
He would be a member of what church?
Is there a  report of "spirit baptism" on this chariot rider?

The Book says, "When they were  came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip,
that the eunuch saw him no more."

So, do we have here a preacher that baptizes a sinner and sends him on his way; no mention
of "spirit baptism or "baptism for repentance."
Philip doesn't even ask for a vote of the church?
So, did he have as you say, a "valid baptism" with all the "necessary participants"?
 
I believe the point of this story is to convey the beginnings of the Ethiopian church.

The details you asked for:
Yes, it's done it public.
The Ethiopian church.
That is not recorded, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
We have here an apostle establishing a church.  Repentance is recorded in the chapter (v.37).  The manifestation of the spirit is not.
The eunuch would be the first member of the Ethiopian church, so I guess you could say that everyone was present. ::smile::
Two of the three are recorded, 1 is not.  No reason to assume it didn't happen.

Jarrod

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #27 on: Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 05:46:25 »
OK... p. rehbein, let me simplify "in the mind of God" for you.

If I do something to you like stealing, or slandering your good name.
You would naturally take offence to this.

I come to you and apologise, repent, make retribution, and ask for your forgiveness.
You say, "I forgive you."

Now p.rehbein,....just where does this "forgiveness" take place:
In your mind/spirit or,...... in my heart?

It takes professional help to miss this at an elementary level.....
"Forgiveness of sins" takes place in the mind of God.

The main question: when does this forgiveness of a holy God take place?
This of course, is the Soteriology of men.....through the ages.

think about your own example here....................if you were to wrong me, and then REALIZE that you had wronged me, and that you NEEDED to make amends and ASK for forgiveness because yo KNEW in your HEART that you had wronged me, and you ASKED for forgiveness, and I FORGAVE you the wrong you had done to me.................then we are left with two options:

1)  IF you were SINCERE in your desire to make right the wrong you had done, THEN you experienced a change of heart.

2)  IF you were not sincere, but just playing games, then you would not experience a change of heart.

So, the question is:  Do we ask for God's forgiveness with a sincere and contrite heart, or are we just playing games with Him?  IF e are sincere, and TRULY seeking repentance and forgiveness, THEN we WILL experience a change of heart.  That CHANGE will be WITHIN US.  Now, you may well say that God ALSO has a change of heart towards us, BUT THAT would not be TRUE.  I KNOW this because the Scriptures TELL US it is TRUE.  HE LOVED US before we loved Him.  He loved us so much when we were wallowing in a life of sin, that He SENT His only begotton Son to DIE for our sins on Calvary's cross.  He HAS NEVER had a change of heart towards us, He has loved us from the beginning.  When salvation occurs, it is WE who experience a change of heart.  Salvation is a heart thingy, that's just the way it is.  I have shown in Scripture, and can go from Matthew 1:1...............all the way to Jude showing how the Scriptures TEACH that salvation is a heart thingy.

Now, you are certainly welcome to believe as you wish, and that's ok too!

What  I don't see is what this has to do with the topic of the OP.  So, maybe we should get back on topic here.

God bless............

Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #28 on: Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:58:22 »
The question remains: where does salvation take place?

You seem to want to believe that salvation takes place in your innards.
So a "change of heart" saves...?
OK...And when did this change of heart put you in contact with the blood of Christ?

Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #29 on: Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 15:15:20 »
Jerrod:

"I believe the point of this story is to convey the beginnings of the Ethiopian church.

The details you asked for:
Yes, it's done it public.
The Ethiopian church.
That is not recorded, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
We have here an apostle establishing a church.  Repentance is recorded in the chapter (v.37).  The manifestation of the spirit is not.
The eunuch would be the first member of the Ethiopian church, so I guess you could say that everyone was present.
Two of the three are recorded, 1 is not.  No reason to assume it didn't happen.

I thought the story was to instrust the charriot rider in what he was reading,
Seem the queens treasurer was having trouble's understanding Isaiah 53: 7-8.

Nothing mentioned about a church.
The thrust of the question: "See here is water; what does hinders me to be baptized?"
Philip's answer stands in contrast with your "the manifestation of the spirit did not."
Philip's answer came via the Spirit.....when he preached Jesus to this man. (Matthew 10:20).
If not, the eunuch's baptism would be as you say, "a ritual."

By the way...when did you elevate Philip to apostleship?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #30 on: Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 00:45:55 »
By the way...when did you elevate Philip to apostleship?
Philip is listed as one of the twelve in Matthew 10, and elsewhere.  So, I think it was Jesus what elevated him.

Actually, that's the whole reason we're talking about him in chapter 8 of Acts OF THE APOSTLES.  So the point of the story is what Philip the apostle did.  And what he did was stablish the church in Ethiopia.

Jarrod

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #31 on: Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 07:25:59 »
Jarrod,

I think it is more likely that Philip in Acts 8 is the Philip of Chapter 6.  He was most probably Philip the evangelist (Acts 21:8), one of seven men (Acts 6:5) selected to assist the twelve (Acts 6:2).  If this is the case then he would not be one of the twelve.  He would not be the apostle Philip.  He would be one of the seven, the evangelist Philip.

This is supported by the fact that all of Acts 6-8 is a record of some of the events surrounding the seven.

This is also supported by the fact that earlier in Acts 8, Philip had been preaching in Samaria.  Many believed and were baptized (v.12) (for the forgiveness of sin and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, i.e., saved).  However they had not yet received the power of the Holy Spirit to work miracles.  For this it was necessary that the apostles come from Jerusalem to lay hands on them(vv 14-15).  If this were speaking of the apostle Philip, then he could have laid hands on the believers there to impart the power of the Holy Spirit for the miraculous; it would not have been necessary for the apostles in Jerusalem to send Peter and John to Samaria.

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #32 on: Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 07:39:44 »
I do not believe that Paul was confirming or establishing baptism for the dead as any sort of doctrinal position.  In 1 Cor 15, the subject is the resurrection.  It appears, to me at least, that some may have been pracitising some form of baptism for the dead.  I think Paul was only using that fact to argue that it is silly to, on the one hand, baptize for the dead and yet, on the other hand, reject the fact of the resurrection.  The fact that there is no command or exhortation anywhere in all of the NT, including this passage, that we should baptize for the dead suggests to me that it was not a solid gospel teaching.  I do admit, however, that if this is the case I wish he would have made that clear.  Nevertheless, since is not ever given as a command or and exhortation of any sort, I will assume that it was simply a useless practice serving no useful purpose.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #33 on: Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 07:42:31 »
The question remains: where does salvation take place?

You seem to want to believe that salvation takes place in your innards.
So a "change of heart" saves...?
OK...And when did this change of heart put you in contact with the blood of Christ?


I seem to want to believe it because the Bible says it's so.   ::smile::

You asked:  "So a "change of heart" saves...?"  No, The Salvation power is the blood of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.  "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."  Our belief in (faith) is the action we take to receive salvatioin, and that by Grace (a gift from God).  It's our heart that reaches out to embrace our Lord and Saviour, and it's in our heart where our belief in Him (faith) resides.  This change of heart from a sinful man to a believer is our salvation.

You asked:  "OK...And when did this change of heart put you in contact with the blood of Christ?"  When I knelt down a sinner, doomed by my sinful life, but having been called by God, convicted by the Holy Ghost, and calling out to Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour with a sincere and contrite heart........................the precious blood He shed on Calvary's cross was applied to my heart and while I may have knelt down a sinner, not worthy of salvation, I rose a blood bought, born again, child of the King and an heir to the promise.  I rose "saved" and "seperated from the world," by the blood of Jesus Christ, worthy to be called a son of God.
 ::reading:: ::reading:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::amen!::

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #34 on: Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 07:48:58 »
I do not believe that Paul was confirming or establishing baptism for the dead as any sort of doctrinal position.  In 1 Cor 15, the subject is the resurrection.  It appears, to me at least, that some may have been pracitising some form of baptism for the dead.  I think Paul was only using that fact to argue that it is silly to, on the one hand, baptize for the dead and yet, on the other hand, reject the fact of the resurrection.  The fact that there is no command or exhortation anywhere in all of the NT, including this passage, that we should baptize for the dead suggests to me that it was not a solid gospel teaching.  I do admit, however, that if this is the case I wish he would have made that clear.  Nevertheless, since is not ever given as a command or and exhortation of any sort, I will assume that it was simply a useless practice serving no useful purpose.

This idea was already put forward by Boskelev in "reply #11" of this thread.  Problem is, when we read the previous and following passages, it's pretty clear that Paul was not "laughing off" this practice, but, rather, supporting it.

I answered his comment with the Scriptures speaking of this, so, if you want to read them you can read my comment following his.

Shoot, here it is, I'll save you the trouble of looking for it:

Boskelev:

The Complete Jewish Bible records the teaching of the Apostle Paul in the 15th Chapter this way:

1 Now, brothers, I must remind you of the Good News which I proclaimed to you, and which you received, and on which you have taken your stand, 2 and by which you are being saved - provided you keep holding fast to the message I proclaimed to you. For if you don't, your trust will have been in vain. 3 For among the first things I passed on to you was what I also received, namely this: the Messiah died for our sins, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; 4 and he was buried; and he was raised on the third day, in accordance with what the Tanakh says; 5 and he was seen by Kefa, then by the Twelve; 6 and afterwards he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, though some have died. 7 Later he was seen by Ya'akov, then by all the emissaries; 8 and last of all he was seen by me, even though I was born at the wrong time. 9 For I am the least of all the emissaries, unfit to be called an emissary, because I persecuted the Messianic Community of God. 10 But by God's grace I am what I am, and his grace towards me was not in vain; on the contrary, I have worked harder than all of them, although it was not I but the grace of God with me. 11 Anyhow, whether I or they, this is what we proclaim, and this is what you believed. 12 But if it has been proclaimed that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, how is it that some of you are saying there is no such thing as a resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then the Messiah has not been raised; 14 and if the Messiah has not been raised, then what we have proclaimed is in vain; also your trust is in vain; 15 furthermore, we are shown up as false witnesses for God in having testified that God raised up the Messiah, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then the Messiah has not been raised either; 17 and if the Messiah has not been raised, your trust is useless, and you are still in your sins. 18 Also, if this is the case, those who died in union with the Messiah are lost. 19 If it is only for this life that we have put our hope in the Messiah, we are more pitiable than anyone. 20 But the fact is that the Messiah has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have died. 21 For since death came through a man, also the resurrection of the dead has come through a man. 22 For just as in connection with Adam all die, so in connection with the Messiah all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: the Messiah is the firstfruits; then those who belong to the Messiah, at the time of his coming; 24 then the culmination, when he hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, after having put an end to every rulership, yes, to every authority and power. 25 For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be done away with will be death, 27 for "He put everything in subjection under his feet."m But when it says that "everything" has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah. 28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone. 29 Were it otherwise, what would the people accomplish who are immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not actually raised, why are people immersed for them? 30 For that matter, we ourselves - why do we keep facing danger hour by hour? 31 Brothers, by the right to be proud which the Messiah Yeshua our Lord gives me, I solemnly tell you that I die every day. 32 If my fighting with "wild beasts" in Ephesus was done merely on a human basis, what do I gain by it? If dead people are not raised, we might as well live by the saying, "Let's eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" 33 Don't be fooled. "Bad company ruins good character." 34 Come to your senses! Live righteously and stop sinning! There are some people who lack knowledge of God - I say this to your shame.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reading through this, it seems to me that this translation contradicts your statement.  I should clarify that it contradicts in that while yes, he is speaking of ressurection, he is not separating himself from those who are immersed for the dead.  He does not appear to be discounting their act at all, rather justifying it.  Now, this is just how I am reading it of course..........so...... ......