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Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2011, 05:11:04 PM »
I have no idea how a living person can be baptized "for the remission of sins" for another living person (Acts 2:38).
Peter,speaking by inspiration said, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to those that are afar off.

I know the Mormon church practices "baptism for the dead," but they also teach Holy Spirit regeneration.
(Moroni 10:3-5).

Interesting: if one believes in Holy Spirit regeneration why believe in water baptism "for the remission of sins"?
If one believes that salvation takes place in ones heart......how do you go about this?
Becomes a tangled web does it not

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2011, 05:11:04 PM »

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 06:21:22 AM »
I have no idea how a living person can be baptized "for the remission of sins" for another living person (Acts 2:38).
Peter,speaking by inspiration said, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to those that are afar off.

I know the Mormon church practices "baptism for the dead," but they also teach Holy Spirit regeneration.
(Moroni 10:3-5).

Interesting: if one believes in Holy Spirit regeneration why believe in water baptism "for the remission of sins"?
If one believes that salvation takes place in ones heart......how do you go about this?
Becomes a tangled web does it not
====================================

That is why I thought it would be a good topic to discuss, for it isn't often spoken of.  I am a bit confused about your statement of a living person being baptized for another living person?  We are speaking of being baptized for the dead, not for another living person.  As well, we are speaking of water baptism and not Holy Ghost baptism...........F.Y.I.
 ::smile::

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 06:21:22 AM »

Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2011, 07:40:25 AM »
p.rehbein: "That is why I thought it would be a good topic to discuss, for it isn't often spoken of.  I am a bit confused about your statement of a living person being baptized for another living person?  We are speaking of being baptized for the dead, not for another living person.  As well, we are speaking of water baptism and not Holy Ghost baptism...........F.Y.I.

Thanks...this is what happens when I engage computer before my mind....
I of course meant "dead."

How would one know that the dead person that you were being baptized for, (in water) believed?
Had this dead person repented?
This is not what Paul was referring in his letter to the Corinthians.
I believe Boskelve has delivered the correct exegesis of the text.

We must remember that salvation takes place in the mind of God, not the heart of man.
We are lost in the mind of God...not our heart.
Having the Holy Spirit does not save...
It is the death of Jesus on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins that saves.
This action has taken place in God mind.
Is this not His plan from the foundation of the world?


Augustine and Calvin removed the seat of salvation from the mind of God to the heart of man.
Catholicism and the Reformers have carried out this teaching of Holy Spirit regeneration.
Both theologies are based on believing that man has inherited Adam's sin.
Both theologies teach that man is "Totally Depraved" (corrupted by Adam's sin).

By this: Man is WHOLLY of God, (Election).
Which leads to Irresistible grace....
The results of this salvation: faith, justification, sanctification and of course perseverance of the saints.
I know of only the Mormon church that adopts baptizing for the dead..from Paul's letter to the Corinthians.
How they explain Romans 6:1 ff I have no idea....
 

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2011, 09:34:49 AM »
I've an answer.  Pick me! Pick me!

My belief is that WATER baptism is that part of baptism by which the church admits a member to it's ranks.

In the event that a person dies without having been formally admitted to the local chapter of the body o' Christ, the assembly may decide to recognize that the person was a member of the body, posthumously.

Jarrod
I cannot do anything for God.  God can do anything through me.

Still waiting for God to show up?  Good news - He's already here.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 04:45:34 AM »
pointmade said:

We must remember that salvation takes place in the mind of God, not the heart of man.
We are lost in the mind of God...not our heart.
Having the Holy Spirit does not save...
It is the death of Jesus on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins that saves.
This action has taken place in God mind.
Is this not His plan from the foundation of the world?
=====================================================

I gotta spend some time on this one and will have to get back to you, 'cause this is so out in left field that I'm gonna have to use a bush-hog to mow down all the weeds between it and me...................

(tongue in cheek..............  ::smile::)

However, let me say......................................... well, that's certainly ONE WAY to look at it I supose...........  ::smile::

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2011, 04:45:34 AM »



Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2011, 07:50:05 AM »
Jarrod: "My belief is that WATER baptism is that part of baptism by which the church admits a member to it's ranks.
In the event that a person dies without having been formally admitted to the local chapter of the body o' Christ, the assembly may decide to recognize that the person was a member of the body, posthumously."

Jarrod, I hope you had "tongue in cheek" when writing this...?

If not, how do you circumvent Acts 2:38-47?

Luke informs the reader that God "added to the church daily those that were saved."
Is water baptism "for the remission of sins" or not?

Noting verse 41..."Then they that gladly received his (Peter's) word were baptized: and the same
day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

No vote taken by the congregation on being "admitted to the local chapter" at Pentecost as I read the text
If water baptism is not for the remission of sins and addition into the church/kingdom Peter was given the "keys"
(Ma. 16:18-19) then the metaphor has broken down into a eschatological comic book that the millennialist
have  conjured up on the "End Time" Forum.

No matter how you slice it...you ain't "added" until God says your "added."
Where would this "addition" take place?

Looks like I have confused p. rehbein with "the mind of God."
But, logically speaking...where else could this action take place?
Please, do not give me the sanctimonious answer of the charismatic: "in my heart."

Is the plan of salvation as voiced by Peter at Pentecost: God's words or not?
If not...then we must delete the words of Jesus in Matthew 10:19-20 as He speaks to his "twelve disciples"
about not "giving a thought about what they were to speak as a testimony for His sake."
Look at that answer in verse 20: "For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you."

The Catholic church has taken this verse and has run with it to their teaching that the papacy (successor to Peter)
through the ages has been given this authority to speak for God.
Of course, when asked to verify the words of the papacy to "confirm their word with signs"
(Acts 2:43; 5:20; 14:3, Mark 16:20) they fall flat on their clarion voices.

Peter verified his words with "many wonders and signs."
So, I can take to the bank that water baptism is "for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Not the indwelling Spirit of an apostles, but, the "gift".......in the mind of God......Where else???
 



 

 



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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2011, 12:02:47 AM »
Jarrod: "My belief is that WATER baptism is that part of baptism by which the church admits a member to it's ranks.
In the event that a person dies without having been formally admitted to the local chapter of the body o' Christ, the assembly may decide to recognize that the person was a member of the body, posthumously."

Jarrod, I hope you had "tongue in cheek" when writing this...?
Nope.  I'm serious.

If not, how do you circumvent Acts 2:38-47?

Luke informs the reader that God "added to the church daily those that were saved."
Is water baptism "for the remission of sins" or not?

Noting verse 41..."Then they that gladly received his (Peter's) word were baptized: and the same
day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

No vote taken by the congregation on being "admitted to the local chapter" at Pentecost as I read the text
If water baptism is not for the remission of sins and addition into the church/kingdom Peter was given the "keys"
(Ma. 16:18-19) then the metaphor has broken down into a eschatological comic book that the millennialist
have  conjured up on the "End Time" Forum.

No matter how you slice it...you ain't "added" until God says your "added."
Where would this "addition" take place?

Looks like I have confused p. rehbein with "the mind of God."
But, logically speaking...where else could this action take place?
Please, do not give me the sanctimonious answer of the charismatic: "in my heart."

Is the plan of salvation as voiced by Peter at Pentecost: God's words or not?
If not...then we must delete the words of Jesus in Matthew 10:19-20 as He speaks to his "twelve disciples"
about not "giving a thought about what they were to speak as a testimony for His sake."
Look at that answer in verse 20: "For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you."

The Catholic church has taken this verse and has run with it to their teaching that the papacy (successor to Peter)
through the ages has been given this authority to speak for God.
Of course, when asked to verify the words of the papacy to "confirm their word with signs"
(Acts 2:43; 5:20; 14:3, Mark 16:20) they fall flat on their clarion voices.

Peter verified his words with "many wonders and signs."
So, I can take to the bank that water baptism is "for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Not the indwelling Spirit of an apostles, but, the "gift".......in the mind of God......Where else???
As nearly as I can tell, there is only ONE BAPTISM, but there are SEVERAL PARTICIPANTS that perform different roles:

When we talk about "water baptism" we talk about the part of baptism the church performs.  That basically means admitting the baptizee as a member of the church through means of a very public washing ritual.

When we talk about "spirit baptism" or "regeneration" we talk about the part of the baptism God performs.  That's the part where He cleans us up on the inside and screws our head on right.

When we talk about the "baptism of repentance" or "remission of sinning" or the "confession of sins" we talk about the part that the baptizee performs in changing their mindset words and actions to match God's way of thinking.

Hopefully that solves the apparent conundrum for you.  It does for me.  Baptism saves... provided you had a valid baptism in which all the necessary participants did their part.

Jarrod
I cannot do anything for God.  God can do anything through me.

Still waiting for God to show up?  Good news - He's already here.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2011, 05:03:38 AM »
pointmade said:

We must remember that salvation takes place in the mind of God, not the heart of man.
We are lost in the mind of God...not our heart.
Having the Holy Spirit does not save...
It is the death of Jesus on the cross as the sacrifice for our sins that saves.
This action has taken place in God mind.
Is this not His plan from the foundation of the world?
=====================================================

I gotta spend some time on this one and will have to get back to you, 'cause this is so out in left field that I'm gonna have to use a bush-hog to mow down all the weeds between it and me...................

(tongue in cheek..............  ::smile::)

However, let me say......................................... well, that's certainly ONE WAY to look at it I supose...........  ::smile::

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I've spent some time pondering this and I have to ask one question:  How exactly can a person believe the following statement

pointmade said:

I have studied this argument from both sides of the fence.
I can find no where in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John where Jesus forced any man
to follow him.

and then conclude that everything has taken place in God's mind?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::

As for Scripture, I would remember John 3:16 of course, because Salvation has ALWAYS been a "heart thingy."  God desired a "personal" relationship with us, and because of that, He established His Salvation plan for us so that we could choose a "personal" relationship with Him, AND THAT IS A HEART THINGY!
 ::clappingoverhead::

I would also remember the Scripture that states....................."who can know the mind of God?"  Since no man can know the mind of God, how can we state firmly that salvation takes place in the mind of God?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::


Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2011, 04:11:50 PM »
OK rehbein....but the question is: where does salvation take palce"?
I believe you feel that somewhere in your "thingy heart" you are saved.
I don't believe the Bible teaches that......

Hey Jarrod...you write: "When we talk about "water baptism" we talk about the part of baptism the church performs.  That basically means admitting the baptizee as a member of the church through means of a very public washing ritual."

Would you explain the baptism of the eunuch in Acts 8:28-39 as a "public ritual"?
He would be a member of what church?
Is there a  report of "spirit baptism" on this chariot rider?

The Book says, "When they were  came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip,
that the eunuch saw him no more."

So, do we have here a preacher that baptizes a sinner and sends him on his way; no mention
of "spirit baptism or "baptism for repentance."
Philip doesn't even ask for a vote of the church?
So, did he have as you say, a "valid baptism" with all the "necessary participants"?
 



p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2011, 06:20:46 AM »
pointmade said:

OK rehbein....but the question is: where does salvation take palce"?
I believe you feel that somewhere in your "thingy heart" you are saved.
I don't believe the Bible teaches that......
===============================================

Matthew 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent:  for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

4:19  And he said unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Matthew 5: (Sermon on the mount)

*Blessed are the poor in spirit...........
*Blessed are they that mourn..........
*Blessed are the meek.............
*Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst...........
*Blessed are the merciful..........
*Blessed are the pure in heart............
*Blessed are the peacemakers............
*Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake............
*Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
5:40  And if a man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.  41)And whosoever shall compell thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
44)But I say unto you. Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you............

6:14  For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

7:1  Judge not, that ye be not judged............
7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that me should do to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets...........................15)Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are raveni9ng wolves...............16)Ye shall know them by their fruits............

9:22  But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole.
9:29  Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
12:35  A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things...............

13:15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.....................

15:8  This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.  9)But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men...............11) Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man...........................18)But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.  19)For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies...............

18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  4)Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

19:8  He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives;............
==========================================

This is just a few Scriptures from the first part of Matthew which speak of the heart and the need for our hearts to undergo a drastic change in order for us to become worthy of being called the sons of God.  Throughout the rest of the Gospels, as well as the following Books of the New Testament, the Scriptures continue to teach us that salvaiton is certinly a "heart thingy."  In His teachings of the Commandments, and the two new Commandments He gave us, Jesus speaks of love/loving, and this love/loving comes from where?  The mind of God, or from our hearts? 

The precious blood of Jesus that was shed on the cross; what does it "cleanse?"  The mind of God, or our hearts?

When the Holy Ghost draws near unto us to place us under conviction, what does He speak to?  The mind of God, or our hearts?

When we are converted, our sins forgiven, born again, where does the change take place?  The mind of God, or our hearts?

Every part of Scripture deals with the need for us to undergo a change of heart.  God's very Salvation plan is designed to bring about a change in our heart.  Through His Grace, His Gift to us, and through the price paid on Calvary's cross by our Lord and Saviour, are we able to experience this change of heart and receive the Holy Ghost (the Comforter) into our hearts to abide with us, to guide and direct us, to comfort and strengthen us on our daily walk with Christ.  In truth, I find that the entire New Testament teaches of Salvation being a "heart thingy."  A personal relationship between us and God, and this relationship takes place in our hearts.



Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2011, 07:29:07 AM »
OK... p. rehbein, let me simplify "in the mind of God" for you.

If I do something to you like stealing, or slandering your good name.
You would naturally take offence to this.

I come to you and apologise, repent, make retribution, and ask for your forgiveness.
You say, "I forgive you."

Now p.rehbein,....just where does this "forgiveness" take place:
In your mind/spirit or,...... in my heart?

It takes professional help to miss this at an elementary level.....
"Forgiveness of sins" takes place in the mind of God.

The main question: when does this forgiveness of a holy God take place?
This of course, is the Soteriology of men.....through the ages.

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2011, 03:45:27 AM »
Hey Jarrod...you write: "When we talk about "water baptism" we talk about the part of baptism the church performs.  That basically means admitting the baptizee as a member of the church through means of a very public washing ritual."

Would you explain the baptism of the eunuch in Acts 8:28-39 as a "public ritual"?
He would be a member of what church?
Is there a  report of "spirit baptism" on this chariot rider?

The Book says, "When they were  came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip,
that the eunuch saw him no more."

So, do we have here a preacher that baptizes a sinner and sends him on his way; no mention
of "spirit baptism or "baptism for repentance."
Philip doesn't even ask for a vote of the church?
So, did he have as you say, a "valid baptism" with all the "necessary participants"?
 
I believe the point of this story is to convey the beginnings of the Ethiopian church.

The details you asked for:
Yes, it's done it public.
The Ethiopian church.
That is not recorded, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
We have here an apostle establishing a church.  Repentance is recorded in the chapter (v.37).  The manifestation of the spirit is not.
The eunuch would be the first member of the Ethiopian church, so I guess you could say that everyone was present. ::smile::
Two of the three are recorded, 1 is not.  No reason to assume it didn't happen.

Jarrod
I cannot do anything for God.  God can do anything through me.

Still waiting for God to show up?  Good news - He's already here.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2011, 04:46:25 AM »
OK... p. rehbein, let me simplify "in the mind of God" for you.

If I do something to you like stealing, or slandering your good name.
You would naturally take offence to this.

I come to you and apologise, repent, make retribution, and ask for your forgiveness.
You say, "I forgive you."

Now p.rehbein,....just where does this "forgiveness" take place:
In your mind/spirit or,...... in my heart?

It takes professional help to miss this at an elementary level.....
"Forgiveness of sins" takes place in the mind of God.

The main question: when does this forgiveness of a holy God take place?
This of course, is the Soteriology of men.....through the ages.

think about your own example here....................if you were to wrong me, and then REALIZE that you had wronged me, and that you NEEDED to make amends and ASK for forgiveness because yo KNEW in your HEART that you had wronged me, and you ASKED for forgiveness, and I FORGAVE you the wrong you had done to me.................then we are left with two options:

1)  IF you were SINCERE in your desire to make right the wrong you had done, THEN you experienced a change of heart.

2)  IF you were not sincere, but just playing games, then you would not experience a change of heart.

So, the question is:  Do we ask for God's forgiveness with a sincere and contrite heart, or are we just playing games with Him?  IF e are sincere, and TRULY seeking repentance and forgiveness, THEN we WILL experience a change of heart.  That CHANGE will be WITHIN US.  Now, you may well say that God ALSO has a change of heart towards us, BUT THAT would not be TRUE.  I KNOW this because the Scriptures TELL US it is TRUE.  HE LOVED US before we loved Him.  He loved us so much when we were wallowing in a life of sin, that He SENT His only begotton Son to DIE for our sins on Calvary's cross.  He HAS NEVER had a change of heart towards us, He has loved us from the beginning.  When salvation occurs, it is WE who experience a change of heart.  Salvation is a heart thingy, that's just the way it is.  I have shown in Scripture, and can go from Matthew 1:1...............all the way to Jude showing how the Scriptures TEACH that salvation is a heart thingy.

Now, you are certainly welcome to believe as you wish, and that's ok too!

What  I don't see is what this has to do with the topic of the OP.  So, maybe we should get back on topic here.

God bless............

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2011, 01:58:22 PM »
The question remains: where does salvation take place?

You seem to want to believe that salvation takes place in your innards.
So a "change of heart" saves...?
OK...And when did this change of heart put you in contact with the blood of Christ?

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2011, 02:15:20 PM »
Jerrod:

"I believe the point of this story is to convey the beginnings of the Ethiopian church.

The details you asked for:
Yes, it's done it public.
The Ethiopian church.
That is not recorded, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
We have here an apostle establishing a church.  Repentance is recorded in the chapter (v.37).  The manifestation of the spirit is not.
The eunuch would be the first member of the Ethiopian church, so I guess you could say that everyone was present.
Two of the three are recorded, 1 is not.  No reason to assume it didn't happen.

I thought the story was to instrust the charriot rider in what he was reading,
Seem the queens treasurer was having trouble's understanding Isaiah 53: 7-8.

Nothing mentioned about a church.
The thrust of the question: "See here is water; what does hinders me to be baptized?"
Philip's answer stands in contrast with your "the manifestation of the spirit did not."
Philip's answer came via the Spirit.....when he preached Jesus to this man. (Matthew 10:20).
If not, the eunuch's baptism would be as you say, "a ritual."

By the way...when did you elevate Philip to apostleship?