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Author Topic: Baptised for the dead?  (Read 4774 times)

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Offline Jimmy

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #35 on: Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 08:18:21 »
If you think that Paul was advocating such a practice, then how do you propose to adhere to it?  How does one go about it?  Could one be baptized for Hitler?

By the way, I see nothing in that particular translation that says Paul was advocating the practice even though he obviously doesn't condemn the practice either. 

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #35 on: Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 08:18:21 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 01:24:42 »
Jarrod,

I think it is more likely that Philip in Acts 8 is the Philip of Chapter 6.  He was most probably Philip the evangelist (Acts 21:8), one of seven men (Acts 6:5) selected to assist the twelve (Acts 6:2).  If this is the case then he would not be one of the twelve.  He would not be the apostle Philip.  He would be one of the seven, the evangelist Philip.

This is supported by the fact that all of Acts 6-8 is a record of some of the events surrounding the seven.

This is also supported by the fact that earlier in Acts 8, Philip had been preaching in Samaria.  Many believed and were baptized (v.12) (for the forgiveness of sin and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, i.e., saved).  However they had not yet received the power of the Holy Spirit to work miracles.  For this it was necessary that the apostles come from Jerusalem to lay hands on them(vv 14-15).  If this were speaking of the apostle Philip, then he could have laid hands on the believers there to impart the power of the Holy Spirit for the miraculous; it would not have been necessary for the apostles in Jerusalem to send Peter and John to Samaria.
Wow, I learned something today.  Thanks, I hadn't ever realized that there was a second Philip.

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #36 on: Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 01:24:42 »

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #37 on: Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 01:42:56 »
If you think that Paul was advocating such a practice, then how do you propose to adhere to it?  How does one go about it?  Could one be baptized for Hitler?

By the way, I see nothing in that particular translation that says Paul was advocating the practice even though he obviously doesn't condemn the practice either. 

===========================

that first part is just silly....................and not worthy of comment.  as for the second part, I would think anyone reading versus 12 through 29 could see that Paul was justifying the practice.  Maybe though, for some, it requires a booming voice from a burning bush, I dunno, maybe so................ 

By the way, I am not advocating the practice of being baptized for the dead, rather, just discussing what the Scriptures say, and if it is Biblical or not, so don't get all in a tither thinking I am advocating the practice.


Offline Jimmy

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #38 on: Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 08:08:32 »
If you think that Paul was advocating such a practice, then how do you propose to adhere to it?  How does one go about it?  Could one be baptized for Hitler?

By the way, I see nothing in that particular translation that says Paul was advocating the practice even though he obviously doesn't condemn the practice either. 

===========================

that first part is just silly....................and not worthy of comment.  as for the second part, I would think anyone reading versus 12 through 29 could see that Paul was justifying the practice.  Maybe though, for some, it requires a booming voice from a burning bush, I dunno, maybe so................ 

By the way, I am not advocating the practice of being baptized for the dead, rather, just discussing what the Scriptures say, and if it is Biblical or not, so don't get all in a tither thinking I am advocating the practice.



There are descendents of Hitler who may think that if baptism for the dead might keep him out of eternal damnation, then it might be worth it if there were such a thing as baptism for the dead.

The fact that you think it might be silly is beside the point.

As to whether or not Paul's reference to baptism on behalf of the dead is justifying the practice is the issue at hand.  If there were any other reference to it or if there were any mention of it, then you might have a point.  But the simply truth is that the manner in which Paul made the reference to being baptized on behalf of the dead does not necessarily make advocacy for it.

But I am curious.  If you think that Paul is justifying the practice and think that he was expressing efficacy of the practice, how could you not advocate for it. 

Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 09:05:05 »
p.rehbein: You asked:  "OK...And when did this change of heart put you in contact with the blood of Christ?"  When I knelt down a sinner, doomed by my sinful life, but having been called by God, convicted by the Holy Ghost, and calling out to Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour with a sincere and contrite heart................... .....the precious blood He shed on Calvary's cross was applied to my heart and while I may have knelt down a sinner, not worthy of salvation, I rose a blood bought, born again, child of the King and an heir to the promise.  I rose "saved" and "seperated from the world," by the blood of Jesus Christ, worthy to be called a son of God.


How would you compare your testimony with Saul of Tarsus?
The Ethiopian eunuch? the 3000 at Pentecost?
I do not see any comparison......
   

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #39 on: Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 09:05:05 »



p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #40 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 07:23:43 »
p.rehbein: You asked:  "OK...And when did this change of heart put you in contact with the blood of Christ?"  When I knelt down a sinner, doomed by my sinful life, but having been called by God, convicted by the Holy Ghost, and calling out to Jesus Christ, my Lord and Saviour with a sincere and contrite heart................... .....the precious blood He shed on Calvary's cross was applied to my heart and while I may have knelt down a sinner, not worthy of salvation, I rose a blood bought, born again, child of the King and an heir to the promise.  I rose "saved" and "seperated from the world," by the blood of Jesus Christ, worthy to be called a son of God.


How would you compare your testimony with Saul of Tarsus?
The Ethiopian eunuch? the 3000 at Pentecost?
I do not see any comparison......
   



I did not state that I was comparing my testimony with theirs...............Salvation is a heart thingy, and it's a personal relationship between God and man.  Each man has a different testimony (story of salvation).  I don't see why it's necessary for you to see a comparison.  Unless, of course, you have been appointed to sit in judgement of me, then I supose it might be necessary.


Offline yogi bear

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #41 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 09:24:52 »
p.rehbein you said "Each man has a different testimony (story of salvation)"

Just curious does that mean you think there are many ways of salvation? Each can be saved a different way from the other? For one kneeling before the mercy seat citing a prayer. For another just citing a prayer following a TV broadcast. But never by submitting to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #42 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 10:48:53 »
p.rehbein you said "Each man has a different testimony (story of salvation)"

Just curious does that mean you think there are many ways of salvation? Each can be saved a different way from the other? For one kneeling before the mercy seat citing a prayer. For another just citing a prayer following a TV broadcast. But never by submitting to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

That isn't what I said at all.  Why do people insist in misrepresenting what others say?  What is the point?  Who on earth cannot understand that every person is a distinctly different individual, and their stories are just as different.  One may be a store clerk, another a brain surgen, another a sailor, another a commercial fisherman, and on, and on.  We are all distinctly different individuals, and we all have different stories of our lives.  God calls us all as He wishes to call us, and for the purpose He has determined for us.  We are not "clones" or "cookie cutter" beings.  Why is that so hard to understand?  Why try to make something out of a simple statement?  I do not understand it.................

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #43 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 11:20:10 »
I do not understand why "salvation" should be a point of debate on a Christian Forum.  I simply don't.  It appears however that it is, and that is truly a sad thing IMO.  My concern is for those "guests" who visit our Forums and read such comments, and the harm it may well do to them.  It's one thing for a person to doubt their salvation, or not believe they have not received salvation yet, BUT it's a far different thing when folks begin to TEACH that NO ONE has received salvation.  This is a dangerous thing in my opinion, and it is not Biblical.

So, I'm going to once more show what salvation is (for the benifit of those "guests" who might be seeking), and HOW we have salvation NOW!

============================================

sal - va' tion, n. 1.  deliverance. 2. deliverance from sin.

de - liv' er, v. 1. give up. 2. carry and turn over. 3. utter. 4. direct. 5. SAVE. 6. GIVE BIRTH. 7. assist at birth. de - liv' er - ance, n.

save, v., saved, saving, prep., conj. --- v.  1. rescue or keep safe.  2. reserve, --- prep., conj.  3. except.

sav'ing, adj.  1. rescuing; redeeming.  2. economical. --- n.  3. economy, 4. (pl) money put by, --- prep.  5. except. 6. respecting.

sav'ior, n. 1. one who rescues. 2. (cap.) Christ. Also, sav'iour.

re - deem', v. 1. pay off. 2. recover. 3. fulfill. 4. DELIVER FROM SIN BY SACRIFICE.

re-deem'er, n.
re-demp'tion, n.
===============================================

Hebrews 8:8  "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; 9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.  11) And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.  12)  FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR INIQUITIES WILL I REMEMBER NO MORE.
===================================================

This is SALVATION!  Period!  ALL who have believed in and confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and have been REDEEMED from their sins HAVE SALVATION HERE AND NOW.  What is to follow is the "promised reward" that our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ spoke of.  The precious blood of Jesus Christ was the price paid for our salvation, and to say that we do not have salvation is to make void the blood of Jesus Christ, and that is a very dangerous thing to do IMO.

To say we have no salvation in this life is to say that our sins have not been forgiven, forgotton, remembered no more, and that is not Biblical.  It is a false and dangerous teaching of the theologies of man, for it is not OF THE WORD OF GOD.







Offline pointmade

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #44 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 08:28:46 »
p.rehbein: "That isn't what I said at all.  Why do people insist in misrepresenting what others say?  What is the point?  Who on earth cannot understand that every person is a distinctly different individual, and their stories are just as different.  One may be a store clerk, another a brain surgen, another a sailor, another a commercial fisherman, and on, and on.  We are all distinctly different individuals, and we all have different stories of our lives.  God calls us all as He wishes to call us, and for the purpose He has determined for us.  We are not "clones" or "cookie cutter" beings.  Why is that so hard to understand?  Why try to make something out of a simple statement?  I do not understand it................."

Wait a minute, you say you "do not understand it," yet, God has "determined" a purpose for you.
In case our "guests," as you refer, do not know the meaning of "determined for us," let me enlighten them.

"Determinism" refers to any philosophy that teaches that EVERY event, including human decisions and acts,
is ultimately determined or caused by an outside, all-controlling force.

To understand where p.rehbein is coming from in his comment, "he has determined for us" one must be familiar with
the teaching of John Calvin's FIRST crucial tenet that determinism is this: God is the ultimate CAUSE of everything
that happens.

Note p. rehbein comment: "God calls us all as He wishes to call us, and for the purpose He has determined for us."
Those who follow the teaching of John Calvin believe that "Men can accomplish nothing except by
God's sacred command, ...they cannot by deliberating accomplish anything except what he has already decreed
with himself and 'determines' by his secret direction (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Ixviii. 1).

Calvin says, "The internal affection of men are no less ruled by the hand of God than their external actions
are preceded by His eternal decree; and moreover,...God performs not by the hands of men the things which He
has decreed, without first working in their hearts the very will which precedes the acts they are to perform"
("Secret Providence," 243, John Calvin).

This is the very reason p.rehbein and the Reformer believes that he is "saved" in his heart.
You see, this deadly doctrine leaves man with no choice.
Why? well, he has been predetermined and predestined by God...
Makes no difference if you have a love for God or not. Makes no difference to "first seek
the kingdom of God and his righteousness" as Jesus said in Matthew 6:33.
Those who teach "determinism" as p.rehbein, that IF God has not already "elected" you, and manipulated
your "heart" to believe,.... you will forever be "lost."

This is why "water baptism" is seen as a "ritual" to the "determinist."
In their scholarly minds it is a joke to believe that water baptism could be "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)
believing in their "heart" that God was the force behind their being saved in the first cause!

The determinist believes God has regenerated them (miraculously) from Adam's sin 
by causing them to have "faith alone." Thus God must in the final analysis be the ultimate cause of
the sinner's participation in salvation at every step.
If man does not work himself out of this deadly doctrine...he will forever be wondering if he was "elected"
by the "determined" counsel of God.....
Feeling saved in ones heart,... is purely subjective.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #45 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 06:37:45 »

I said:
p.rehbein: "That isn't what I said at all.  Why do people insist in misrepresenting what others say?  What is the point?  Who on earth cannot understand that every person is a distinctly different individual, and their stories are just as different.  One may be a store clerk, another a brain surgen, another a sailor, another a commercial fisherman, and on, and on.  We are all distinctly different individuals, and we all have different stories of our lives.  God calls us all as He wishes to call us, and for the purpose He has determined for us.  We are not "clones" or "cookie cutter" beings.  Why is that so hard to understand?  Why try to make something out of a simple statement?  I do not understand it................."

pointmade said:

Wait a minute, you say you "do not understand it," yet, God has "determined" a purpose for you.
In case our "guests," as you refer, do not know the meaning of "determined for us," let me enlighten them.
==============================================

are you serious?  When I said I don't understand it, I WAS REFERRING to the fact that YOU and a couple of others here on the Forums CONTINUALLY twist and turn the words of others to misrepresent what that person said.  It seems to be a favorite passtime of yours..........................what is the purpose for you intentionally misrepresenting what others say? 

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #46 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 06:40:50 »
p.rehbein: "That isn't what I said at all.  Why do people insist in misrepresenting what others say?  What is the point?  Who on earth cannot understand that every person is a distinctly different individual, and their stories are just as different.  One may be a store clerk, another a brain surgen, another a sailor, another a commercial fisherman, and on, and on.  We are all distinctly different individuals, and we all have different stories of our lives.  God calls us all as He wishes to call us, and for the purpose He has determined for us.  We are not "clones" or "cookie cutter" beings.  Why is that so hard to understand?  Why try to make something out of a simple statement?  I do not understand it................."

Wait a minute, you say you "do not understand it," yet, God has "determined" a purpose for you.
In case our "guests," as you refer, do not know the meaning of "determined for us," let me enlighten them.

"Determinism" refers to any philosophy that teaches that EVERY event, including human decisions and acts,
is ultimately determined or caused by an outside, all-controlling force.

To understand where p.rehbein is coming from in his comment, "he has determined for us" one must be familiar with
the teaching of John Calvin's FIRST crucial tenet that determinism is this: God is the ultimate CAUSE of everything
that happens.

Note p. rehbein comment: "God calls us all as He wishes to call us, and for the purpose He has determined for us."
Those who follow the teaching of John Calvin believe that "Men can accomplish nothing except by
God's sacred command, ...they cannot by deliberating accomplish anything except what he has already decreed
with himself and 'determines' by his secret direction (Institutes of the Christian Religion, Ixviii. 1).

Calvin says, "The internal affection of men are no less ruled by the hand of God than their external actions
are preceded by His eternal decree; and moreover,...God performs not by the hands of men the things which He
has decreed, without first working in their hearts the very will which precedes the acts they are to perform"
("Secret Providence," 243, John Calvin).

This is the very reason p.rehbein and the Reformer believes that he is "saved" in his heart.
You see, this deadly doctrine leaves man with no choice.
Why? well, he has been predetermined and predestined by God...
Makes no difference if you have a love for God or not. Makes no difference to "first seek
the kingdom of God and his righteousness" as Jesus said in Matthew 6:33.
Those who teach "determinism" as p.rehbein, that IF God has not already "elected" you, and manipulated
your "heart" to believe,.... you will forever be "lost."

This is why "water baptism" is seen as a "ritual" to the "determinist."
In their scholarly minds it is a joke to believe that water baptism could be "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)
believing in their "heart" that God was the force behind their being saved in the first cause!

The determinist believes God has regenerated them (miraculously) from Adam's sin 
by causing them to have "faith alone." Thus God must in the final analysis be the ultimate cause of
the sinner's participation in salvation at every step.
If man does not work himself out of this deadly doctrine...he will forever be wondering if he was "elected"
by the "determined" counsel of God.....
Feeling saved in ones heart,... is purely subjective.

with regards to your entire response............you have not the slightest idea of what I believe..........all you have is YOUR opinion, and it is quite clear that your opinion IS NOT BASED on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.......plain and simple.................

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #47 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 07:12:11 »
pointmade,

You may well be one of the most dangerous persons I have encountered on the Internet.  I have great concern for even responding to your false statements/accusations of me and others who do not agree with your ideology.  In this latest one, you have certainly outdone yourself.  I seriously doubt that anyone else here who has spoken with me, or read any of my comments, does not know that I have always supported the "free will" of mankind, and believe it to be one of the greatest Gifts given to mankind by God.  The fact that you cannot understand that God has a purpose for His children, and calls them for that purpose is your problem.  The fact that you cannot understand that even if a person is called, he/she may well choose to not answer their calling.  It occurs each and every day in this world.  It's called free will.  Yet, you would distort my comments (pretending to have understanding of my beliefs) to fit your ideology.  To edify yourself and whatever organization you belong to............what a sad thing................I expect that you will soon again resort to your usual M.O. of referring to me as a cultist.......it seems to be one of your favorite retorts.

You seem to have but one desire/purpose here, and that is to manipulate, distort, and misrepresent the comments of others, and I cannot but wonder why?

On other occasions I have asked you to identify yoursel.  What religious group are you a part of?  If you are goint to continue to put forth the stuff you do, and continue to manipulate, distort, and misrepresent the comments of others, I would think we need to know where this type of ideology is being taught.

If you cannot bring yourself to reveal your affiliation, then I have no further use for your commentary...............


Memphis Dwight

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #48 on: Sun Oct 16, 2011 - 13:04:22 »
1 Cor 15:29
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

The hurdle to overcome in accurately understanding this passage is one of syntax.  

What the author meant in this verse would go something like this:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the purpose of burying the dead man of sin, if the dead are not given new life then why are they then baptized for the purpose of burying the dead?

There is corroborating evidence for this in Romans 6:4-11
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Offline Legate

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #49 on: Sat Oct 22, 2011 - 18:22:44 »
We  who put our trust (belief) in the scripture that God says will bring us salvation as Gentiles and Jews today are the only ones who will be raised spiritually.

So when our physical body perishes (dies) our spiritual body will be risen when ever Jesus Christ returns to get his Messianic (Christian) Community.

Below when it says immersed it actually means baptized with the Holy Spirit.

1Co 15:28  Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone.
1Co 15:29  Were it otherwise, what would the people accomplish who are immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not actually raised, why are people immersed for them?

Your physical body dies but if you are one who have put your trust in God and live according to his will with the Holy Spirit in you then you spirit will be risen.

p.rehbein

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Re: Baptised for the dead?
« Reply #50 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 10:59:05 »
We  who put our trust (belief) in the scripture that God says will bring us salvation as Gentiles and Jews today are the only ones who will be raised spiritually.

So when our physical body perishes (dies) our spiritual body will be risen when ever Jesus Christ returns to get his Messianic (Christian) Community.

Below when it says immersed it actually means baptized with the Holy Spirit.

1Co 15:28  Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone.
1Co 15:29  Were it otherwise, what would the people accomplish who are immersed on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not actually raised, why are people immersed for them?

Your physical body dies but if you are one who have put your trust in God and live according to his will with the Holy Spirit in you then you spirit will be risen.

Have to disagree with this..........."EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue confess.........."  All who have ever lived will be resurrected............some to eternal life, and some to eternal damnation...........ALL will stand before the Judgement Seat, and the Book of Life will be opened, and they will have to give account for every deed, word, thought.........ALL, EVERYONE!


 

     
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